The Expertise stat has to go...

[Welve]

what is the main problem people have with expertise? do they feel it gives to much of an advantage over non geared players? because the problem will still exist with raid gear

 

yes but a 5-10% gap in stats alone is better than a 5-10% gap in stats AND a 15% gap in expertise that makes people take less damage and do more...

 

it is WAY too much as is

[Sanwa]

Same old argument used in every gear based MMO. People always complain about PvP only stats and gear. Your argument is old and tired.

 

The reason why it is a good idea to have PvP armor is for one of the reasons you stated. What about those of us who may not like raiding? Why should we be at a disadvantage because of that? Raiders can go grind WZ's too, you know.

Couldnt agree more.

[Welve]

There is no competitive PvP scene to getting gear anyone can obtain it with time so everything you said is irrelevant skill is not needed to obtain it so point still applies since you say someone stats are better than yours you say remove the stat

 

no competitive PVP scene? isn't all PVP competitve? one side versus another, may the best team win, it is all a competition

 

skill is needed until the element of OH THIS GUY HAS LOGGED MORE HOURS THAN YOU -> HIS GEAR IS BETTER -> HE IS OBVIOUSLY BETTER -> HE WINS

[Okamakiri]

It still applies in PvE if you are geared you will be stronger than someone who just hit 50 so really you just dont know how to respond to that

 

The difference is that someone who just hit 50 is not forced to right away tackle hardest PVE content. They are not forced to participate at the same level as that geared 50. Instead they can progress up the PVE ladder at their own pace, gearing themselves and tackling harder encounters as they do. In PVP they don't have that choice, they are forced to go up against "hardest" PVP encounters immediately, i.e. people already decked out in BM gear. The problem will only get worse with time. A year from now a fresh 50 will enter a WZ where 90% of his oponents will be wearing Warlord gear. The stats themselves already create enough of a discrepency, adding expertise on top of it is just plain stupid. Removing expertise and equalizing PVP and PVE gear would give a fresh 50 an option of gearing themselves through other means.

[LanceUpercutt]

yes but a 5-10% gap in stats alone is better than a 5-10% gap in stats AND a 15% gap in expertise that makes people take less damage and do more...

 

it is WAY too much as is

 

not really, because while pvp gear provides that expertise bonus it has less stats than raid gear

 

the difference between columni and champion gear in pvp and pve is insignificant

[Junebugs]

no competitive PVP scene? isn't all PVP competitve? one side versus another, may the best team win, it is all a competition

 

skill is needed until the element of OH THIS GUY HAS LOGGED MORE HOURS THAN YOU -> HIS GEAR IS BETTER -> HE IS OBVIOUSLY BETTER -> HE WINS

 

Ok tell me some gear that you need to win to get?

 

There is none therefore everyone can obtain the gear with effort so still what you are saying is irrelevant

[StealthStalker]

Just gonna take this from a random post I threw together mentioning the idea elsewhere. Amusingly enough, in the crew skill forum regarding health packs and the heal debuff we get in PvP.

 

---

 

Dual Targeting was amazing.

 

Wards, while in their first incarnation were quite bad, ended up being great.

 

http://warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/Ward

 

Each tier of content required wards from the previous tier. With no wards, you took 300% damage from and did 40% damage to the creatures in that encounter.

 

There were 5 wards for each tier, one for each primary armor piece. Each ward lowered damage taken by 40%, and increased damage done by 15%.

 

So with full "Wards", you took 100% damage and did 115%.

 

At the start you had to actually wear the gear that contained the ward to do the encounter. Eventually they removed this requirement, and instead the Wards became unlocked in your Tome of Knowledge (eg: Codex, here).

 

You could then also unlock Wards with various different ways, such as:

 

Loot a certain piece of armor containing the correct ward from the previous tier (eg: Head slot).

Kill a certain boss X amount of times in the Previous dungeon.

Perform a certain feat in RvR Y amount of times.

 

This allowed you to obtain wards even if you couldn't get the drop you needed. The Kill X bosses, and Perform Y feats could take quite some time... but you would get the ward.

 

This allowed the gating of progression content, and also allowed gear to remain competitive in both PvP and PvE without affecting one or the other adversely. Not only does this solve the need for "Expertise" or "Resilience", but it also does away with ridiculous amounts of gear-inflation required to improve PvE gear for future content.

 

Now I'm not saying this system should be copied identically. eg: Using RvR feats for Wards, but still. We'd no longer need expertise (or uh, a healing debuff?), and PvE still requires Progression/work to get through.

 

---

 

Anyway, I always liked this system better than a PvP stat. Use whatever gear you want, whenever you want.

Edited January 24, 2012 by StealthStalker

[Welve]

not really, because while pvp gear provides that expertise bonus it has less stats than raid gear

 

the difference between columni and champion gear in pvp and pve is insignificant

 

what? let's ignore raiders and I am talking fresh 50s here

[Welve]

Ok tell me some gear that you need to win to get?

 

There is none therefore everyone can obtain the gear with effort so still what you are saying is irrelevant

 

and that, right there, is absolutely what is wrong with this game and all the others, thank you. You don't have to be the better player, there is no incentive to be the better player, and you see nothign wrong with that

 

no wonder all these games are practically empty after a few months

[Junebugs]

and that, right there, is absolutely what is wrong with this game and all the others, thank you. You don't have to be the better player, there is no incentive to be the better player, and you see nothign wrong with that

 

no wonder all these games are practically empty after a few months

 

Why do you think im in the forums? Game is boring at 50 you dont have to be anywhere near a decent player to get gear that is terrible

 

Edit: But that doesnt mean expertise needs to be removed

Edited January 24, 2012 by Junebugs

[LanceUpercutt]

what? let's ignore raiders and I am talking fresh 50s here

 

im saying that full columni vs fresh 50 will be nearly as "unfair" as full champion vs fresh 50

 

unless you just want to nerf all end game gear i guess, but then you run into a lot more problems

Edited January 24, 2012 by LanceUpercutt

[BDutch]

Bingo! That is the correct attitude to have. The vast majority of players are PvE type players. I feel that statement is supportable since there are nearly twice as many PvE servers are there are PvP servers. Good or bad, PvE players have been trained to do content for rewards, if there are no tangible rewards, the likelihood of them getting involved is lower. Which means a gear progression based system of some kind.

 

On http://www.swtor.com/server-status I count:

PvE/RP-PVE: 124

PvP/RP-PVP: 88

 

That is not almost twice, nor the "vast majority". That's besides the point though.

 

You're supporting a system that guards PvP against PvE gear, (held by PvE players), while pointing out that the same PvP reward system provides incentive for PvE players... that doesn't make sense to me.

[StealthStalker]

It's also interesting that one of the most loved PvP MMO's to date (DAOC), had no PvP stat. Most gear in fact was crafted, with raid drops to supplement the crafted gear in intricate templates that were unique across most people.

 

Now the ToA expansion kind of took a crap all over this concept, but the Classic Servers and Pre-ToA were quite good.

[Armethious]

I am saying, remove progressive gear completely, have gear sets that are unlocked at certain valor levels, that are cosmetic only, that way as you progress you can get better looking gear , BUT still have the challenge of equal pvp, not OMG BBQ *** GEAR HAX pvp. Expertise by its nature unbalances PvP. you will NEVER have any glimpse of balance in this game with a stat that reduces/imporves a players damage taken/damage put out.

 

Then expertise is not the issue, you are advocating a gear neutral PvP system where once you enter the WZ, it does not matter what gear you have on, everyone will be the same. No thanks. I like to be rewarded for my efforts and improve my character in the process. I am sure there are some, like yourself, who like this type of system, but I do not. If this was so good, and this was the end all be all of PvP for the masses, then one might think it was used by the most popular and successful MMO in North America. Oh wait, it wasn't.

 

It was used by DCUO that had to server merge and go to free to play within a year of being released. If this gear neutral system you speak of was so great, why is DCUO not more popular? According to you, they have the only PvP system worth anything, skill only, no tangible rewards. Sounds fun.

 

So to sum it up, there is a gear neutral PvP system out there that is free to play, why in the world are you coming here and asking Bioware to radically change their PvP system to be the same of a failed MMO. Go play that one if that is what you really want, it will save you $15 a month as well.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Armethious

[Welve]

im saying that full columni vs fresh 50 will be just as "unfair" as full champion vs fresh 50

 

unless you just want to nerf all end game gear i guess, but then you run into a lot more problems

 

and I am saying you are wrong because with chamption gear I get the stats from purples that are much better than leveling blues and greens AND the expertise that further augments me in PVP with 10%+ more damage dealt and 10%+ less damage taken

[LanceUpercutt]

and I am saying you are wrong because with chamption gear I get the stats from purples that are much better than leveling blues and greens AND the expertise that further augments me in PVP with 10%+ more damage dealt and 10%+ less damage taken

 

i dont understand why you are comparing blues and greens, the columni gear is also going to be much better then your blues and greens

[Darth_Vampirius]

What do Wow and Rift have in common seeing as some one else mentioned the names.... They both have extremely low new PvP player uptake. Getting people to enter PvP in those games and stick with it long enough to be on par gear wise (Or close enough to be competitive) simply doesn't happen, at a rate that replaces outgoing players.

 

Both of those games have PvP communities that loose members faster then they replace them with new Ex PvE Playing converts. The PvP stats make it VERY VERY hard to introduce new players to the fantastic world of PvP that we all get. I think most of us will grind on alts when we have too ect... because we are already hooked. There was a time when every one of us was not a PVP player... admit it none of us came to PvP first.

 

The bracketing that PvP stats creates drives away growth. It will become a problem for TOR in the future as well.

If this were true, then nobody would be PVPing in those games. It's completely false.

[Welve]

Why do you think im in the forums? Game is boring at 50 you dont have to be anywhere near a decent player to get gear that is terrible

 

Edit: But that doesnt mean expertise needs to be removed

 

how many times have I said that removal is not my goal, but rather a massive scaling back, something like 50% less effective

 

if you make PVP gear less game breaking you are free to make winning PVP more rewarding and losing more punishing.

[Junebugs]

how many times have I said that removal is not my goal, but rather a massive scaling back, something like 50% less effective

 

if you make PVP gear less game breaking you are free to make winning PVP more rewarding and losing more punishing.

 

But how will that in any way fix the problem with terribads having the best gear?

Edited January 24, 2012 by Junebugs

[Welve]

i dont understand why you are comparing blues and greens, the columni gear is also going to be much better then your blues and greens

 

and you are being deliberately obstinate, reread what I have posted, I have explained the difference of why people in champion gear is much more broken than columni

[LanceUpercutt]

how many times have I said that removal is not my goal, but rather a massive scaling back, something like 50% less effective

 

if you make PVP gear less game breaking you are free to make winning PVP more rewarding and losing more punishing.

 

thing is they have to keep pvp gear and pve gear relatively close, and if you scale back pve gear how are they going to keep making more difficult content?

[shaidarlol]

On http://www.swtor.com/server-status I count:

PvE/RP-PVE: 124

PvP/RP-PVP: 88

 

That is not almost twice, nor the "vast majority". That's besides the point though.

 

You're supporting a system that guards PvP against PvE gear, (held by PvE players), while pointing out that the same PvP reward system provides incentive for PvE players... that doesn't make sense to me.

 

124 vs 88 ... clearly the majority, you are just splitting hairs at this point.

 

and i don't know what guarding pvp gear against pve gear even means.

pve has their own progression

pvp has their own progression

 

yes a fresh 50 is going to suck vs pvp geared 50 just like a fresh 50 is going to suck in raids vs a pve geared 50 in raids. what is the difference?

 

the only difference would be what type of content a player wants to see. some prefer only pve, some only want pvp, while others want to do both.

 

if you remove expertise it will basically force all the pvpers to pve for gear to compete

like wise if you make gear all the same the pvers will complain about the pvpers that got the same gear as pvers and come in raids when they haven't even done any raid progression.

 

it's 2 systems everyone should stop trying to splice it into 1.

in either systems a fresh 50 will still get slaughtered vs a pve/pvp geared person nothing changes but a whole new complaint system.

[LanceUpercutt]

and you are being deliberately obstinate, reread what I have posted, I have explained the difference of why people in champion gear is much more broken than columni

 

.. i did and im saying your ignorant to how similar columni and pvp gear are, both in pvp and in pve

[LanceUpercutt]

yes a fresh 50 is going to suck vs pvp geared 50 just like a fresh 50 is going to suck in raids vs a pve geared 50 in raids. what is the difference?

 

the only difference would be what type of content a player wants to see. some prefer only pve, some only want pvp, while others want to do both.

 

if you remove expertise it will basically force all the pvpers to pve for gear to compete

like wise if you make gear all the same the pvers will complain about the pvpers that got the same gear as pvers and come in raids when they haven't even done any raid progression.

 

it's 2 systems everyone should stop trying to splice it into 1.

in either systems a fresh 50 will still get slaughtered vs a pve/pvp geared person nothing changes but a whole new complaint system.

 

This ^

[Welve]

But how will that in any way fix the problem with terribads having the best gear?

 

the goose is already cooked for the first batch of people to hit 50 and get rewarded just for existing in a PVP game, but it doesn't mean that it shouldn't change in the future for newer players

 

honestly, if you want retroactive change, you aren't going to get it

 

but a new system that rewards winners based on skill by de-emphasizing gear is better and more entertaining for the future of the game