The Expertise stat has to go...

[Cynan_Ski]

I am just amused at how much blind rage this topic brings up because a good amount of ppl have come up with good alternatives but everyone just reverts to NO WE NEED IT TO FIGHT THE PVE people.....

 

My favorite suggestion was no expertise but make it where pve and pvp gear are the same according to thier tier except pve gear gets a bonus to pve killing so the feared "PvE players will do pvp to just get pve gear" doesnt happen

 

Its even pretty much even for pvp then.

[Viikuna]

another not real example:

 

endgame item:

85 aim

100 endurance

 

armour slot:

 

raid reward: changes item to exclusive skin, pve extra stat (modifies damage/healing/defence in raids only)

 

pvp reward: changes item to exclusive skin, counts towards set bonus

 

 

Makes pvp less about gear, doesn't give pve gear an advantage in pvp

 

the extra stat is on the wrong gear.

 

There is one flaw in that kind of desing:

You could still do 99% PvE and jump in PvP with 2hours of PvP experience and do as high burst and survive as much as the PvP only player. While you wouldn't be able to jump from PvP to PvE like that.

 

With the current system you cannot jump either way (well you can, but your dps/hps or mitigation/avoidance for tank is not on par with equal tier of the other), which i see as fair.

 

So yes, it is on the right gear

Edited January 25, 2012 by Viikuna

[Roak]

There is one flaw in that kind of desing:

You could still do 99% PvE and jump in PvP with 2hours of PvP experience and do as high burst and survive as much as the PvP only player. While you wouldn't be able to jump from PvP to PvE like that.

 

With the current system you cannot jump either way (well you can, but your dps/hps or mitigation/avoidance for tank is not on par with equal tier of the other), which i see as fair.

 

So yes, it is on the right gear

 

I think that's fine myself, I welcome people pvping and don't mind them being competitive instead of forcing them to grind gear first to be on a par with me. And endgame pve requires gating and progression so I'd have no problem in having to beat tier 1 before I can do tier 2 etc.

 

They are different types of endgame gameplay and do not require the same progression to work, in fact they'd work better with totally different types of progression.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Roak

[Cynan_Ski]

There is one flaw in that kind of desing:

You could still do 99% PvE and jump in PvP with 2hours of PvP experience and do as high burst and survive as much as the PvP only player. While you wouldn't be able to jump from PvP to PvE like that.

 

With the current system you cannot jump either way (well you can, but your dps/hps or mitigation/avoidance for tank is not on par with equal tier of the other), which i see as fair.

 

So yes, it is on the right gear

 

 

Wait so your saying its not fair that this person can do the same dmg as you for playing in pve the whole time prior to doing pvp?

 

(Not counting the fact that the BM gear can easily get you by in anything but the top Operations.)

 

 

You having spent you 99% of your time should be able to have more skill than the pve player that decided to do it for 2hours....... iam not seeing a problem with a even match i dont know why everyone is upset at it being even in a pvp enviroment.

[Viikuna]

 

My favorite suggestion was no expertise but make it where pve and pvp gear are the same according to thier tier except pve gear gets a bonus to pve killing so the feared "PvE players will do pvp to just get pve gear" doesnt happen

 

It would not be equal to PvP only players vs. PvE only players.

 

With that kind of system you would be able to jump from PvE to PvP and lose nothing, really. While you wouldn't be able to jump from PvP to PvE because you're missing all the important PvE bonuses.

 

 

With the current system:

If you jump from PvE to PvP you lose dps/hps done and survive less.

If you jump from PvP to PvE you lose dps/hps done. (In PvE you don't need to survive more, the gear is already balanced to give you needed endurance for that, so the poor dps, huge health PvP'er gains nothing from the gear)

 

So PvP gear is better for PvP, PvE gear is better for PvE.

 

It's now FAIR both ways.

[Joms]

DAoC made the pvp and PvE gearing perfect;) you have a stat cap and have you choose to get the stat and resistance is up to you.

 

the quality of an item made the stats avalible.

 

a quality 99% would yeld 40 point worth of stats

a quality 100% would yeld 45 points

 

then give all people 8 different stats and 6 different resists

 

raid gear could yeld 55 points of stats... no bind on pickup for items but introduce decaying on the items so you have to replace them at some time.

 

Give valor point to spec into abilities like stat increase and maybe shields or cc breakers

 

If gaming companies look at what other companies did well they will be much better for it no need to invent the wheel 100 of times when all you need to do is the make the wheel shine more....

[Viikuna]

Wait so your saying its not fair that this person can do the same dmg as you for playing in pve the whole time prior to doing pvp?

 

I'm saying that it's not fair that the person doing the PvE only can come in PvP and do the thing equally good as someone who is PvP only.

 

While at the same time the PvP only player cannot jump to PvE and be equally good.

 

Only solution to make it equal for both sides, is to remove extra stats and make PvE and PvP gear exactly the same stats, only look being different. (Or the current system.)

 

But then comes 2 of the problems (and one of the reasons why PvP only extra stats do exist):

 

1. "We decline your application to our raiding guild, because you lack X or Y items from PvP. They are easy and quick to get and there is no reason why new 50 shouldn't get them before they start raiding"

 

2. "Why it's so much easier to get thing X or Y of equal tier from PvE(or PvP) than the other"

 

(2 of the complaints i've seen, before PvP only stats joined MMOs)

 

It is now equal for PvP only and PvE only players. If you do play both, then you have gear for both, i don't see the problem there. If you play only other, your gear wont serve you as good on the other.

 

Why fix something that isn't broken?

 

Ps. I play 50-50 both PvP/PvE, so i'm not saying anything because i fear that PvE only player comes and kills me... Heck my last months in that other game i was 100% PvE only...

 

I still do think that Expertise is fine, and should stay as it is.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Viikuna

[BoDiE]

It would not be equal to PvP only players vs. PvE only players.

 

With that kind of system you would be able to jump from PvE to PvP and lose nothing, really. While you wouldn't be able to jump from PvP to PvE because you're missing all the important PvE bonuses.

 

 

With the current system:

If you jump from PvE to PvP you lose dps/hps done and survive less.

If you jump from PvP to PvE you lose dps/hps done. (In PvE you don't need to survive more, the gear is already balanced to give you needed endurance for that, so the poor dps, huge health PvP'er gains nothing from the gear)

 

So PvP gear is better for PvP, PvE gear is better for PvE.

 

It's now FAIR both ways.

Hallelujah! Now close the thread. It's been a riveting read. It truly has.

[Cynan_Ski]

So whatever solution we pick one group gets alienated, it is awesome.... Almost need to adopt the ladder system like SC2 only way i can see people being pitted against similar geared/skilled competition. At the moment those who have expertise has a 2:1 odds of beating those who don't.

 

:Tried the same gear idea alienates the pvp crowd vs the pve crowd

:Keep the expertise alienates all the new players who proceed to get gang-banged for a week or 2

 

and the crap phrases like "i had to do so should they" is a lame excuse

 

I do think the current pvp situation needs work but maybe i was going after the wrong thing like expertise but it still comes down to something needs to change.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Cynan_Ski

[Tharrn]

I'm saying that it's not fair that the person doing the PvE only can come in PvP and do the thing equally good as someone who is PvP only.

 

This is something I'll never get. Someone who exclusively does PvE and decides to go PvP should (applying common sense... a rare commodity these days) NOT be equally good at it even if the gear is the same stuff the PvPer has.

 

Why? Experience. Training. It's something totally different to mash 100% predictable PvE bosses than to compete with unpredictable human beings. Those 'PvP'ers with angst about PvEers having the same gear in PvP must suck. A lot.

[Viikuna]

This is something I'll never get. Someone who exclusively does PvE and decides to go PvP should (applying common sense... a rare commodity these days) NOT be equally good at it even if the gear is the same stuff the PvPer has.

 

Why? Experience. Training. It's something totally different to mash 100% predictable PvE bosses than to compete with unpredictable human beings. Those 'PvP'ers with angst about PvEers having the same gear in PvP must suck. A lot.

 

You let this part out of the quote (which kinda makes it out of context):

 

While at the same time the PvP only player cannot jump to PvE and be equally good.

 

Edit:

And i kinda don't get the point of your post.

 

I'm ofcourse talking about gear and what it allows you to do, as this thread is about expertise/removing it (etc.) and not about individual player skill.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Viikuna

[AlbertXP]

I don't really see a problem with this. Once people have full battlemaster the playing field is equal, which they should all have in about a month.

[Tharrn]

You let this part out of the quote (which kinda makes it out of context):

 

While at the same time the PvP only player cannot jump to PvE and be equally good.

 

Edit:

And i kinda don't get the point of your post.

 

I'm ofcourse talking about gear and what it allows you to do, as this thread is about expertise/removing it (etc.) and not about individual player skill.

 

My point is that no special PvP stat is needed if the base stats on the PvE/PvP gear are the same as PvPers worth the name have the edge in PvP by experience and training.

 

The only thing that needs balancing then is the time it takes to grind out the PvE and PvP set, which should be roughly identical.

[Cynan_Ski]

I don't really see a problem with this. Once people have full battlemaster the playing field is equal, which they should all have in about a month.

 

In the meantime they get gang-banged while attempting to get the gear. Last i knew i was paying to play a game

 

Game

 

While some games are work i tend to think of games are suppose to be fun in the context of this game dying in 2-3 sec flat over and over and over for a week or so till it starts to pay off is not fun.

 

I have had some fun matches in pvp. Expertise geared enemies included but my overall experience has been terrible. and dont foresee too many new players in the future putting up with this.

 

At the same time i know the BM equiped players have put time in to be leet and grats. and when tiered WZ's come out this expertise arguement will go away.

[PloGreen]

Farm the gear like everyone else has to or don't bother. Expertise is fine, only people who don't like it are lazy. Time is the only thing it takes to get decent pvp gear with expertise and seperates the wheat from the chaff. No expertise then what? Make all armor the same for everyone at 50? Why even have gear progression? Absolutely ridiculous. Effort = reward, and that's how it should be, no one said it should be easy. If you can't handle a few weeks of getting beaten by geared up people stick to pve - no offense.

[Viikuna]

My point is that no special PvP stat is needed if the base stats on the PvE/PvP gear are the same as PvPers worth the name have the edge in PvP by experience and training.

 

The only thing that needs balancing then is the time it takes to grind out the PvE and PvP set, which should be roughly identical.

 

Balancing the time between PvE and PvP is not easy task, and if it fails....

 

It would bring back the whine and complaints about getting gear easier from other source. Or being "forced" to do the other, because of faster gear that helps you/your guild to progress in the other, while you wouldn't want to.

 

Both of those being reasons why Resilience(=expertise) made it into that other game

Edited January 25, 2012 by Viikuna

[AlbertXP]

In the meantime they get gang-banged while attempting to get the gear. Last i knew i was paying to play a game

 

Game

 

While some games are work i tend to think of games are suppose to be fun in the context of this game dying in 2-3 sec flat over and over and over for a week or so till it starts to pay off is not fun.

 

I have had some fun matches in pvp. Expertise geared enemies included but my overall experience has been terrible. and dont foresee too many new players in the future putting up with this.

 

At the same time i know the BM equiped players have put time in to be leet and grats. and when tiered WZ's come out this expertise arguement will go away.

As i said,as soon as you hit 50 if you saved commendations and do the weeklies you should have half the champion set, thats enough gear not to get facerolled.

If everyone was competitive the second they hit 50 this game wouldn't last very long.

[Joms]

Gear progression is the worst bloody thing thats in current MMO's i wish you WoW people would grow up and learn theres other directions than your precious gear grind....

[Cynan_Ski]

As i said,as soon as you hit 50 if you saved commendations and do the weeklies you should have half the champion set, thats enough gear not to get facerolled.

If everyone was competitive the second they hit 50 this game wouldn't last very long.

 

How would it not last long? Cant imagine that over 70% of the servers pvp's just for the sake of pvp

on a side note RNG was not nice to me

Edited January 25, 2012 by Cynan_Ski

[Viikuna]

Gear progression is the worst bloody thing thats in current MMO's i wish you WoW people would grow up and learn theres other directions than your precious gear grind....

 

Gear grind in WoW? You call 1 week of heroic dungeons for second best raid tier, or 1 week of battlegrounds for second best PvP Tier a grind?

 

Oh dear... WoW is far from its former glory and the thing you call "gear grind"...

 

I MISS those ~40 UBRS runs to get everything from there that i wanted. I enjoy farming / grinds.

 

I'm currently at ~100 Lord Inath kills to get my 9lvl Orange gloves, for the class i want (started yesterday)

[GrandMike]

So whatever solution we pick one group gets alienated, it is awesome.... Almost need to adopt the ladder system like SC2 only way i can see people being pitted against similar geared/skilled competition. At the moment those who have expertise has a 2:1 odds of beating those who don't.

 

:Tried the same gear idea alienates the pvp crowd vs the pve crowd

:Keep the expertise alienates all the new players who proceed to get gang-banged for a week or 2

 

and the crap phrases like "i had to do so should they" is a lame excuse

 

I do think the current pvp situation needs work but maybe i was going after the wrong thing like expertise but it still comes down to something needs to change.

 

Those same poor freshly dinged level 50-ies would get equally gang-banged by people in top PvE gear until they get better gear.

 

Its a gear based game. gear > everything, its how things work, whether you like it or not (i dont but i adapt)

 

Only people who want expertise gone are PvEers that think they should dominate everything in their PvE gear. And of course, if they lose in PvP they blame gear and difference is only around 5%.

[Cynan_Ski]

Wars have been started over conversations like this.

[Roak]

Only people who want expertise gone are PvEers that think they should dominate everything in their PvE gear. And of course, if they lose in PvP they blame gear and difference is only around 5%.

 

I'm a pvper of the old school, cut my teeth in non gear grind based games which had much, much better pvp than this game.

 

I'm in full champion gear and I think a separate pvp stat is a ******* dumb idea. So I'm not sure who the "only people who want expertise gone" are in your post.

 

A gear grind is a developmental cop out, a weaksauce system to keep people chasing a carrot instead of creating actual dynamic pvp systems.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Roak

[ScytheNoire]

Expertise (or any PvP stat) is a handicap for players who can't win based on skill.

 

It's a bonus for players who PvP more than other players.

 

It's a crutch for game designers who can't think outside the box.

 

Take your pick, but whatever the case, it's bad for competitive and balanced PvP.

[Viikuna]

Expertise (or any PvP stat) is a handicap for players who can't win based on skill.

 

And i bet you PvP naked, because it's not gear based game where there is differense between lvl 1 and lvl 50 gear?

 

Its a gear based game. gear > everything, its how things work, whether you like it or not (i dont but i adapt)