Dungeon Finder Needed Badly.

[alkanterah]

IF the numbers show that.

 

On Lord Adraas, my server, the FPs are full and finding groups is easy. You can stand in the FP launch area and the place bogs my framerate down it's so full of people running in and out of the instances.

 

The people who don't want LFD are running dungeons just fine.

 

I can just as easily say that never happens outside of guild grouping. Are groups formed and flashpoints completed? Sure. Do they account for a significant portion of people looking to do the content? We don't know. Doesn't seem likely however.

[carnac_fett]

 

I'm a 30 year old woman. By the very nature of demographics I am something of an outsider in this game. Add in a tendency to keep a low profile and a generally laid back demeanor I know, for a fact, I will be a non-entity in whatever monolithic "community" you're talking about. If I'm screwed over by someone who is plugged in and I complain it's far more likely I'll be the one blackballed and hounded.

 

Quite possibly the best post in this thread. You have a way with words.

Edited January 1, 2012 by carnac_fett

[Innocentone]

Good way to bypass lockouts to farm gear. Edited January 1, 2012 by Innocentone

[markdienekes]

I don't see what a dungeon finder has to do with the destruction of community. Can you elaborate on your strange comment?

 

It certianly doesn't help. In Warcraft, I was constantly group with people on different servers, it was like playing with anonymous people... Perhaps if it is just server based, it would be better.

[Yfelsung]

Then get off your high-horse and go queue with your Guild family. I have a Guild too -- it doesn't guarantee me a group whenever I want it. Most guilds have nowhere near that many people in it.

 

I still need to find randoms, and I'd rather that take minutes instead of hours. You have not explained in the slightest how a Dungeon Finder hurts you, or your Guild, or the community.

 

I've actually explained in SEVERAL POSTS how a Dungeon Finder hurts the community.

 

It's about ANONYMITY.

 

A LFD system creates more anonymity. This means you can be an ***, a terrible player, a loot ninja or a whole host of other bad things without consequence. The dungeon ends, you move on to queueing again.

 

Without an LFD system, the other option is that the community bands together to create a social network, like on Pre-TBC WoW servers. Shadow Council, my own WoW server, even had extra websites such as RP-Haven and the like which allowed our community to grow even stronger.

 

In this system, you only have a few degrees of separation between any player on the server. You may not know Ted directly, but you know a friend of Ted's and so you, vicariously, know Ted and are going to hear things about Ted.

 

Now, in an LFD system, if Ted decides to ninja-loot some gear. The people in that group will remember Ted and they'll tell their friends. But, because of the LFD system, an extensive social network never had to form, and things like that won't form unless they HAVE TO form. So, Ted got blacklisted from maybe two guilds and a handful of players.

 

In the non-LFD system, Ted decides to ninja-loot some gear. Now, because no LFD existed the community has created their own versions of LFD systems. Private channels, guild alliances, 3rd part websites. The community has become an extensive spider web where your actions reverberate further.

 

So Ted steals the gear, people in the group tell their friends and guild. Their guild masters inform their guild alliance. A person in that Alliance adds him to a "blacklist" on a 3rd part website, which gets his name spread to the opposing faction, they decide to put him in KOS lists, Grief on Sight lists etc etc.

 

Now, all these wonderful 3rd part websites and guild alliances CAN form alongside an LFD tool, but because they're not NECESSARY with an LFD tool, they usually DON'T FORM.

 

Because of the community, Ted now because a black sheep. He can't raid, can't group, can't PvP. He has to reroll, change servers or pony up the cost of a name change.

 

That means that being a ninja-looter cost him 25 bucks, or the time and effort to reroll.

 

Suddenly, being a dick costs you something. Now you're much less likely to be a dick.

 

Back in the LFD tool, Ted just requeued. Maybe he hit one guy who heard about him and got booted, but odds are the next time he hit a group of people who'd never heard of him.

 

THAT is why LFD tools destroy communities. Not because they physically destroy what's already there, but because they create a mentality where that community is never built to begin with.

[alkanterah]

It's not just about principle, I'm sure people at BW played WoW and saw the LFD tool destroy WoW's community just as easily as I saw it.

 

LFD tools destroy communities, BW knows this. It's not principle stopping them from putting in an LFD tool, it's the desire to maintain a good and strong community.

 

Stephen Reid said as much

Stephen Reid:

 

We're aware of this desire, but we actually believe that finding others on the same planet as you encourages social interaction a bit more than a general 'group finder'. We're not saying it'll never, ever happen but again, not high priority right now.

 

Sure, we MAY get one, as he said, but they made it clear their reasoning is that THEY ALSO BELIEVE that an LFD tool would decrease socialization.

 

I think LFD tools destroy communities

 

Stephen Reid agrees with me.

 

It's not about principle, it's about community. A strong community is the MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT of an MMO.

 

At the end of the day, if they see that placing all of the flashpoints in the fleet failed to create the "community" they thought it would, they'll remedy it. Also he never said LFD tooll destroy communities, he said they don't foster the same interaction as channel spam. To a degree he's correct but for flashpoints, channel spam does just as little as LFD tools to enforce a healthy community. So I wouldn't even say he really agrees with you, and frankly if they are to look at this thread they would find some sound reasoning behind having one.

[carnac_fett]

It certianly doesn't help. In Warcraft, I was constantly group with people on different servers, it was like playing with anonymous people... Perhaps if it is just server based, it would be better.

 

Sure!

 

When someone says they're for an LFG tool, that doesn't mean they want a vast system that groups you up with randoms from across all servers.

 

My definition of an LFG tool is a system that's intuitive and easy to use, and matches you up with other players so that you can get into a dungeon quickly, without requiring you to stand in town begging for people to join your group.

[artilleryshell]

They once played WoW, and WoW had a Dungeon Finder and a bad community at the same time.

 

Obviously that means Dungeon Finder causes bad communities.

 

there are a few aruments to say that the corelaries are causally linked.

 

1. The tool was battlegroup wide, making annonyimity a huge problem, you couldent punish ninjas by ruinining their reputation as easily. The system would reward people who were ******es, as there was no pressure to make them behave.

 

2. The content live when the LFD launched was painfully easy, so adding the convineence of LFD made pretty much everything laughable and pointless. This led alot of simple minded people to think they were "teh uberz" and you could possibly draw a causal pathway to Lich King elitism from that. Yes i know there was elitism before LFD, but in my opinion, the brain-dead content made the elitism leave the few and enter the many.

 

In short, i feel that the moderate option is the way to go here: don't ever fall to the wotlk level of braindeadness in your flashpoints (i'm looking at you Cademimu...) and insititute a looking for flashpoint system that pulls from your server ONLY, not outside of it, thus preventing the cross-server anonimity and asssoiation of flashpoints with another brand of pve e-sport.

Edited January 1, 2012 by artilleryshell

[Vydor_HC]

Nah, an automated LFG tool isn't needed. People have chat, that's all they need. Though some server forums would be nice and maybe a listing feature that people can put there names on for a flashpoint.

[Yfelsung]

Blackballing people only works when they aren't connected and/or plugged into the social community you're creating. As is fairly typical of society in general we take sides. I was around WoW in vanilla and BC, and I saw a lot of raider poaching, a lot of RPers backstabbing one another, guild implosions, and a lot of forum and general chat drama. More than anything I noticed people take sides on everything, whether they were involved or not.

 

I'm a 30 year old woman. By the very nature of demographics I am something of an outsider in this game. Add in a tendency to keep a low profile and a generally laid back demeanor I know, for a fact, I will be a non-entity in whatever monolithic "community" you're talking about. If I'm screwed over by someone who is plugged in and I complain it's far more likely I'll be the one blackballed and hounded.

 

Seriously dude, get a clue.

 

The average age of gamers is, as of 2011, 37.

 

Females are a massive part of the MMO community compared to any other genre.

 

On most RP servers, you end up with almost 50% women.

 

That monolithic community I talked about on my old server, one of the websites was put together and run by a 30 year old woman (actually I think she was 29).

 

You're not as much of an outsider as you'd like to think, you're a pretty typical representation of the average MMO player.

[Gazzzenn]

10 pages and not one single reason to not have a same server LFD tool that hasn't or can't be easily refuted. Bring it on Bioware.

 

most wouldn't mind a same server lfd/lfg tool, personally i'd prefer an improvment to the current feature a big improvment but not an auto tool that groups me and sends me their.

 

as soon as it goes cross server is where problems come, if you beleive otherwise you really are being niave or you were the bad player in wow's lfd.

 

what players are asking for that are against this is to allow the community to get the chance to grow and succeed before it is ruined by auto spamming of flash points and not doing anything.

 

players have been complaining about the lack of life in world of warcraft outside of towns because players never have to travel anywhere, thats not an improvment thats a disaster, wow is on a very heavy decline 3 quarters of purely negative growth is a very very bad sign and will only spiral downward, sure it may slow and eventually stop but when and where is a different point altogether.

 

i'd like to see some sort of a feature that is more user friendly but not something that does what lfd does in wow.

[Seuria]

The average age of gamers is, as of 2011, 37.

 

Females are a massive part of the MMO community compared to any other genre.

 

On most RP servers, you end up with almost 50% women.

 

That monolithic community I talked about on my old server, one of the websites was put together and run by a 30 year old woman (actually I think she was 29).

 

You're not as much of an outsider as you'd like to think, you're a pretty typical representation of the average MMO player.

Considering I've been playing these games for seven years now across numerous servers and games I can safely conclude that I am generally older than most of the playerbase, love.

 

Let's also note that you didn't address the basis of my post and chose to concentrate on a single aspect that focuses entirely on suggesting I become involved in the community to a degree I may not want or be comfortable with or risk being blackballed because I'm not one of the "cool kids."

 

That's simply a terrible idea no matter how you look at it.

[DarthSerparic]

server side lfd list that you can sign for that doesn't port you to the dungeon would work where you still have to communicate with players in which to invite them

[alkanterah]

I've actually explained in SEVERAL POSTS how a Dungeon Finder hurts the community.

 

It's about ANONYMITY.

 

A LFD system creates more anonymity. This means you can be an ***, a terrible player, a loot ninja or a whole host of other bad things without consequence. The dungeon ends, you move on to queueing again.

 

In the example of a cross-server tool this may be true. Same server? With the high chances of seeing the exact same faces in your next group you wouldn't want to risk being kicked (or rated poorly if a rating system were to exist). Many problems I hear with LFD tools tend to be centered around issues that could easily be rectified.

 

 

Without an LFD system, the other option is that the community bands together to create a social network, like on Pre-TBC WoW servers. Shadow Council, my own WoW server, even had extra websites such as RP-Haven and the like which allowed our community to grow even stronger.

 

In this system, you only have a few degrees of separation between any player on the server. You may not know Ted directly, but you know a friend of Ted's and so you, vicariously, know Ted and are going to hear things about Ted.

 

Again, not really an issue in SWTOR. Flashpoints are too quick, insignificant in the leveling process, and frankly the idea of social networks being formed around them is ludicrous. This is applying old world concepts to a game where they no longer apply. I'd love it if they did, but they don't.

 

 

 

 

Back in the LFD tool, Ted just requeued. Maybe he hit one guy who heard about him and got booted, but odds are the next time he hit a group of people who'd never heard of him.

 

THAT is why LFD tools destroy communities. Not because they physically destroy what's already there, but because they create a mentality where that community is never built to begin with.

 

Even in games like EQ2 on AB where there were these social sites with forums where people called out names of ninja's and straight up ******es the community at large was still mostly unaware and grouped with them regardless.

[Sheneria]

what? i already get lots of whispers for flashpointgroups while doing dailys or pvp without flagging myself.

 

maybe its a server specific problem, but on my server even on an alt i get in groups for heroics and low level flashpoints without any problem.

 

just use the tool they gave us and you will find a group in no time.

 

ofc sitting on fleet waiting until something happens will not work, you have to talk and socialize with others.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Sheneria

[sevenex]

I hate dungeon finders. I can't stand grouping with people that have the attention span of a 3 year old and on top of it fell they can show their backside because they are protected by the anonymity that this feature provides.

 

Having said that, I can compromise. If people are that inept at putting together groups on their own or joining one of the many offers of LFM, and really feel that they NEED this feature. Fine. Make it server only and I'll live with it.

[artilleryshell]

what? i already get lots of whispers for flashpointgroups while doing dailys or pvp without flagging myself.

 

maybe its a server specific problem, but on my server even on an alt i get in groups for heroics and low level flashpoints without any problem.

 

just use the tool they gave us and you will find a group in no time.

 

ofc sitting on fleet waiting until somethink happens you will not work, you have to talk and socialize with others.

 

I'm guessing you are:

 

A Vanguard/Powertech

 

A Guardian/Juggy

 

or

 

A Sage/Sorcerer.

 

 

I'm a tank, but i usually have to fight for a flashpoint my guild's not running, since i'm not seen as "a tank" until i prove it. (Shadow) If my guess is incorrect, i shall retract my argument here.

[Yfelsung]

Considering I've been playing these games for seven years now across numerous servers and games I can safely conclude that I am generally older than most of the playerbase, love.

 

Let's also note that you didn't address the basis of my post and chose to concentrate on a single aspect that focuses entirely on suggesting I become involved in the community to a degree I may not want or be comfortable with or risk being blackballed because I'm not one of the "cool kids."

 

That's simply a terrible idea no matter how you look at it.

 

Well, luckily, since the community I spoke of is generally created and controlled by adults (being 28, I found myself on the young end of the stick in most community events on my old server), you don't get blackballed by "the cool kids', because they're not "cool kids" they're people between the age of 25 and 50.

 

30 is not old in the MMO genre, it's quite average.

 

At 28, I am the 3rd youngest member of my guild.

 

I'm not exaggerating, 37 is the average gamer age in 2011. Sure, this accounts for facebooks games and the like, but MMOs have always had a WAY older audience than other genres as those of us who started with UO when were were 15 are now approaching 30, and those who started with MUDS before that are sometimes approaching 40.

 

Gaming isn't a young person's hobby anymore. We all got old and we just kept gaming.

[alkanterah]

Blargh, too many people who aren't reading the thread.. Logging back in.

[Gazzzenn]

Considering I've been playing these games for seven years now across numerous servers and games I can safely conclude that I am generally older than most of the playerbase, love.

 

Let's also note that you didn't address the basis of my post and chose to concentrate on a single aspect that focuses entirely on suggesting I become involved in the community to a degree I may not want or be comfortable with or risk being blackballed because I'm not one of the "cool kids."

 

That's simply a terrible idea no matter how you look at it.

 

i actually have to disagree with you, i'm 31 myself and most of the players i met in wow/aion were either around that age or older, i knew a guild on my old server that was 90% female with over 400 members as well as the guild i raided with where i was amoung the younger of members.

 

now thats not to say there aren't younger players and alot of them so it's not like your wrong either, it's just that i got to know older players more than i did younger players, the few younger players i did get to know to any degree were just like the older players in terms of how they spoke and interacted with the game and other players.

 

i know around 30 people where i live that all play wow and swtor and only one is under 25, maybe thats just those i've met but again they seem to be less of a minority than you seem to think.

[livespawn]

Nah, an automated LFG tool isn't needed. People have chat, that's all they need. Though some server forums would be nice and maybe a listing feature that people can put there names on for a flashpoint.

 

guess we shouldn't have auto pvp queues either, dont we have chat? doesn't it destroy community? please.

[Sheneria]

guess we shouldn't have auto pvp queues either, dont we have chat? doesn't it destroy community? please.

 

we have those because its the only way to reach a warzone so no its not the same

[Darkulous]

A cross-server LFD will eventually be implemented because New players a year from now won't be able to find groups while leveling up.

[Yfelsung]

guess we shouldn't have auto pvp queues either, dont we have chat? doesn't it destroy community? please.

 

Technically, the PvP would be better if we didn't have an auto-queue system.

 

Ever play a clan scrim in an FPS? two clans going head to head?

 

Infinitely more fun than joining a random server.

 

Organized play always > PuG play.

[carnac_fett]

ofc sitting on fleet waiting until something happens will not work, you have to talk and socialize with others.

 

Good day, sir!

 

Why, good day to you.

 

Lovely weather we're having.

 

Yes, I quite agree.

 

I was wondering if perhaps you would like to run a flashpoint with me?

 

Sir! I am offended. We must SOCIALIZE first or we risk DESTROYING our great server community.

 

My sincerest apologies. What have you had for lunch today?

 

Tea and a lunchable. Delectable.

 

My mouth waters!

 

Yes indeed.

 

Well, I do believe we have socialized enough.

 

I suppose so! Has our group filled up yet?

 

I am aghast. It has not. Somehow our idle conversation has not automatically filled our group.

It does seem that way. Looks like we're out of options.

 

Indubitably. We return to the old standby!

 

LF2M FOR HAMMER STATION NEED HEALER

 

LF2M FOR HAMMER STATION NEED HEALER

 

LF2M FOR HAMMER STATION NEED HEALER

 

LF2M FOR HAMMER STATION NEED HEALER

 

My deepest apologies, but we have been searching for twenty minutes. I must go and water my considerable garden. My begonias are looking dreadful. Good day!

 

LF3M FOR HAMMER STATION NEED HEALER

 

LF3M FOR HAMMER STATION NEED HEALER

Edited January 1, 2012 by carnac_fett