Dungeon Finder Needed Badly.

[Yfelsung]

Stop living in your pipe dream. This type of thing was possible 10 years ago. People are not like that online anymore. It has nothing to do with the game or the way in which you find dungeons. People play MMO's casually now, they don't live there.

 

I play MMOs casually, I have a full time job and bills to pay.

 

You can play casually AND be social and interact with a guild.

 

I know, it's a confusing concept.

[Gohlar]

But so far it is flying, as Bioware said as of now they have no plans for an LFD tool.

 

This means they understand that giving the children what they want isn't always what's best for them.

 

And it's not like you're some overwhelming majority. For every 1 pro-LFD post there's at least 1 anti-LFD post.

 

Calling other people children in an internet argument is cool.

 

Also, judging by the success of LFD, I think the majority like it just fine. For every 1 person complaining there are thousands playing. You know this and quite frankly you're mad about it.

 

Look, it's a good tool. We will get one here. Wait and see. Local server at the very least, NO reason not to have that.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Gohlar

[alkanterah]

So it filters you so you don't try and group with yourself. What's the problem with that, exactly?

 

I'm simply saying it only shows 100 results. If it filtered out the ones primarily LFG and showed those over any others then that would make more sense.

 

 

Frankly, this is more evidence that it's not psychic, rather than badly implemented, unless you think there's some way the game could realise you've given up looking for a group or that you think you have a large enough group other than you unflagging yourself as LFG.

 

You could say it's not psychic, but I simply prefer to say it's not very effective at what it sets out to do.

 

That's an exaggeration, but usage of it is far lower than it really should be, yes. This is why, as I've already said, Bioware need to make it more obvious it's there, and how to use it.

 

More exposure to it would help yes, but as is that wasn't an exaggeration. At least not in my experience. I rarely if ever see even one person who has it enabled on planets past Nar Shaddaa. And that's 25+, I'm not talking about end-game here.

 

So what you're saying is there's a large number of people who, if they were looking for a group, and received a whisper from someone asking for an invite, they would refuse to send one? I have come across people like that, but my experience is that, by far, they're the minority. Even then, that's solved by sending them an invite - unless you're also one of the ones who refuse to create a group, even though you're looking for one.

 

Yeah like I said, far more followers than leaders. You can see it in Fleet general all the time when it's just pages of LFG and you can clearly see there are enough to form maybe even two groups for a flashpoint. A tool would automate that, whereas otherwise you're not just waiting on a healer or tank, you're waiting on someone with gumption. For whatever reason that's rare commodity in MMOG's.

[Nidien]

I understand both sides of the argument, but in all honesty most of the people complaining about not EVER finding groups probably do not bother to even put any effort into looking or forming their own group, or they are 1 of 1million dps when a group needs a tank or healer, or they are possibly that guy/gal who spams needless immature bs throughout general and everyone is ignoring you from then on out and you won't find a group no matter what you do.

 

I have multiple toons ranging from 1-35 on various servers and never once have waited more than 5 min to find a group or create one. So even though the implementation of a LFG would be ok, I think people need to stop over exaggerating and whining until that time comes.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Nidien

[Yfelsung]

I don't see the difference, though. If someone who you recruited by spamming general chat is a jerk, you boot him from the group and block him so you never deal with him again. If someone who ended up in your group via an LFD system is a jerk, you boot him from the group and block him so you never deal with him again. In both scenarios, you can even go around the world telling people not to group with the guy.

 

Just blocking him on a person to person basis isn't enough.

 

We had this guy on my WoW server named Packhunter. He got to the point, due to acting like an ***, that he could not raid. He could not instance. He would enter PvP and his entire own team would stop playing and let us farm Packhunter until he would quit the BG.

 

Eventually, he had no choice but to leave our server.

 

A community loses that kind of power when you introduce auto-queueing and group forming features.

 

I'm not against a much stronger LFG TOOL. I'm against an LFD queue.

[Arysta]

I want either a dungeon finder or, at the very least, the ability to port to a dungeon when your group is ready. I hate having to linger outside the group area until I find a group. You never know how long that's going to take, and I usually end up getting impatient and leaving after a couple of minutes.

 

I also hate spamming general. I know, people will be all "you need to be social, this is an mmo, suck it up," but I don't get how typing "lfg" or "lfm" 10 times in a row is social. It's friggin' annoying. I'm sick of seeing it, and sick of doing it.

[carnac_fett]

But so far it is flying, as Bioware said as of now they have no plans for an LFD tool.

 

This means they understand that giving the children what they want isn't always what's best for them.

 

And it's not like you're some overwhelming majority. For every 1 pro-LFD post there's at least 1 anti-LFD post.

 

It doesn't matter who has more posts on the game's forums. What matters are the numbers ingame.

 

If the amount of people engaging in group content increases each time they make it easier to get into groups, Bioware is going to keep going down that path.

 

I was once naive and believed that companies like Blizzard and Turbine would stand on principle. They would do what was RIGHT, not just what made them more money or exposed the content they worked so hard on to more players.

 

Somehow I don't think that Bioware is that shining knight that will try to make their MMO more like the MMOs of the late 90s.

[Gohlar]

I understand both sides of the argument, but in all honesty most of the people complaining about not EVER finding groups probably does not bother to even put any effort into looking or forming their own group.

 

I have multiple toons ranging from 1-30 on various servers and never once have waited more than 5 min to find a group or create one. So even though the implementation of a LFG would be ok, I think people need to stop over exaggerating and whining until that time comes.

 

To be fair, I've spent a lot longer than 5 minutes and I'm a tank. I do socialize and talk, it just takes a while sometimes.

[RWScissors]

I can't really comment about the current state of wow or their grouping tool, I haven't played for many months and not at the level cap at all during the current expansion. That said, I've not had such bad experiences as people here seem to portray with their group queuing system... none worse anyhow than taking random people from trade chat. That's not the point though, the problem with the grouping tool in swtor is most people don't seem to even know it's there. There should be something in the game to tell people how to use it. There are those things that pop up to tell you about changing your gear and selling your junk but nothing about the group tool.

[Drasill]

Will it be like WoW's LFG where a guy comes to your house and holds a gun to your head saying you are no longer allowed to talk to people and you aren't allowed to form your own groups?

 

If so, I'd rather just stick to spamming general chat for a half hour to an hour to find people who I'll never speak to again because that is more social.

[Debiru]

What this game really needs at this point...is a Dungeon Finder. It was a huge success in other MMO's, no reason for it not to be in this game.

 

Pros:

 

1. Can continue questing while waiting for group to form.

 

>You can still do that by utalizing /who function, or just enter arrow up enter and be about you`re buissness<

 

2. Prevents trolls from sitting there ruining General Chat while they are bored trying to fill a group.

 

>You can ignore ppl who troll or say things that annoyes you, and i bet you look at the chat even tough you don`t currently look for a group, thusly reading a trolls writings once i na while<

 

3. Proves that BioWare can do something like this. Buys street creds.

 

>they made a whole game from scratch, they can code it into the game easly enough, i whould say th tough act and street cred will rather come if they DON`T implement a LFD TOOL<

Cons:

 

1. Some people think it ruins the community...but I think they are wrong. They obviously have not sat for an hour trying to fill a Flashpoint group.

 

>how is some ppl opinion a con, when you?re pros are opinions? riddle me this, besides, its a FACT of observation that the community took a hit whit LFD, not soley alone, but was a big ol help<

 

2. People who think like that are probably in a huge guild and have no trouble filling groups. We're usually filling 2-3 of 4 and just need that last role.

 

>This is the same as above, you don`t even try to make a pro\con list, you make a opinion and then agrees whit you`re self dissguised as cons. and the fact that ppl ARE in big guilds, don`t mean they dont use LFD tools, they just expect ppl to not be jerks or ninjalooters even so the tool provides the mwhit the means.<

 

 

This is asusual bogus tears of incompetent players, i will assume you only played WoW since Wrath, but you will just say you have played since vanilla, and goole some randome facts, and voile FACTS.... atleast poked holes in the socalled pro\con squabble of yours.

[alkanterah]

I understand both sides of the argument, but in all honesty most of the people complaining about not EVER finding groups probably do not bother to even put any effort into looking or forming their own group, or they are 1 of 1million dps when a group needs a tank or healer.

 

I have multiple toons ranging from 1-35 on various servers and never once have waited more than 5 min to find a group or create one. So even though the implementation of a LFG would be ok, I think people need to stop over exaggerating and whining until that time comes.

 

I create groups all the time, it's the only way to get things done I agree. I have little problem doing this with heroics on planets. I sat in fleet for half an hour at least last night LFM'ing (helps to say LFM more than LFG) for Mandalorian Raiders, not one single bite. At 25 people are spread across the fleet, Nar Shaddaa, Tatooine, and a few brave souls heading to Alderaan. Short of having a world-wide chat channel (far far worse than anything imaginable) a LFD tool is the best solution.

 

And yes it doesn't help that I'm a DPS. On my healer it's easier but there were still times it took far too long. You simply shouldn't have to spend more time looking for a group than it takes to do the flashpoints, which are very short.

Edited January 1, 2012 by alkanterah

[BladedEdge]

You know there is a massive difference between what we currently have, and what WOW has, since that seems to be what everyone is comparing us too.

 

There are a number of features they -could- add that would making getting into a flashpoint easier, without establishing a system anywhere close to the system WoW had.

 

Personally I'd be satified with being able to/figured out how too resize the bloody who so I could actually read what people put in their LFG comment. Could certainly do 'something' to make it easier. Its certainly not impossible right now, but there are a wealth of basic things they could do that are far from the automated sorting/dropping into a quest that WoW does...

[carnac_fett]

Just blocking him on a person to person basis isn't enough.

 

We had this guy on my WoW server named Packhunter. He got to the point, due to acting like an ***, that he could not raid. He could not instance. He would enter PvP and his entire own team would stop playing and let us farm Packhunter until he would quit the BG.

 

Eventually, he had no choice but to leave our server.

 

A community loses that kind of power when you introduce auto-queueing and group forming features.

 

I'm not against a much stronger LFG TOOL. I'm against an LFD queue.

 

Well, at least you're reasonable about it. I see people arguing that the current LFG tool is perfect, which is ridiculous.

 

I don't see how an LFG queue would enable someone like Packhunter to carry on. If he has a bad reputation, he's going to be excluded from a group. If there's no queue, he's excluded from the get-go. If there's a queue, he's kicked from the group after thirty seconds. Either way, no Packhunter.

Edited January 1, 2012 by carnac_fett

[Arysta]

Thankfully EVERY MMO has not had a LFD tool. Off the top of my head I can tell you SWG did not EVER have one ... but then again, SWG only lasted EIGHT FRAKKIN YEARS

 

The very fact that SWG ended makes it inferior to many mmo's that came before it... because they're still going strong. This is a very poor example.

[Yfelsung]

It doesn't matter who has more posts on the game's forums. What matters are the numbers ingame.

 

If the amount of people engaging in group content increases each time they make it easier to get into groups, Bioware is going to keep going down that path.

 

I was once naive and believed that companies like Blizzard and Turbine would stand on principle. They would do what was RIGHT, not just what made them more money or exposed the content they worked so hard on to more players.

 

Somehow I don't think that Bioware is that shining knight that will try to make their MMO more like the MMOs of the late 90s.

 

It's not just about principle, I'm sure people at BW played WoW and saw the LFD tool destroy WoW's community just as easily as I saw it.

 

LFD tools destroy communities, BW knows this. It's not principle stopping them from putting in an LFD tool, it's the desire to maintain a good and strong community.

 

Stephen Reid said as much

Stephen Reid:

 

We're aware of this desire, but we actually believe that finding others on the same planet as you encourages social interaction a bit more than a general 'group finder'. We're not saying it'll never, ever happen but again, not high priority right now.

 

Sure, we MAY get one, as he said, but they made it clear their reasoning is that THEY ALSO BELIEVE that an LFD tool would decrease socialization.

 

I think LFD tools destroy communities

 

Stephen Reid agrees with me.

 

It's not about principle, it's about community. A strong community is the MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT of an MMO.

[carnac_fett]

The very fact that SWG ended makes it inferior to many mmo's that came before it... because they're still going strong. This is a very poor example.

 

Plus the fact that SWG ceased to be SWG a year after it came out thanks to the NGE.

 

Citing it as an example of a successful MMO without an LFG tool is like citing a rusted, broken car sitting in a junkyard as an example of a vehicle with an excellent safety record - because it can't even move.

[Deathwhispr]

I agree, I hit 50 and there are a ton of 50's but I can never find a group for anything. They need a dungeon finder.

 

They also need cross server PvP and cross server dungeon finder.... Per server doesnt work

 

:wea_01:QFT:wea_01:

 

I am all for the Cross server LFD and PvP queue system. While I understand the arguement some have stating it breaks down the "community" this is the way MMO's are headed and will continue to head in the future. You can still build a community and make friends, but these added features just make gettign a group togther less of a hassle for many players.

[Wuutha]

I think that's awful. Imagine all the people that had to pretend to be your friend just so they had allies for dungeons and raids.

 

Don't have to imagine that - it already exist, it's called Facebook (be it it's not for dungeons and raids).

 

 

Personally - my friendslist is building up with people I enjoy playing with, people I even see dragging along to end-game - and that's what it was all about for, socializing if you wish. If there is a tool - I can't get a feel for the people I play with through talking to them (first impressions and all that) - to me that is important.

 

Of course having a LFG/LFD tool might speed things up a bit - but I personally don't understand what this whole "rushrushrush" mentality is coming from, be it I might be old.

 

I have a full-time job, healthy relationship, responsibilites and so forth - I still manage to level like a horse, find people I want to play with in-game and do all the things I want to do and get out of SWTOR - all about efficiency.

 

Can't do the hardcore scene anymore - which is fine, it's a choice - I am not in school anymore or live home with my parents (not that it automatically qualifies you for "hardcore" gaming).

 

Personally - I don't need it and I manage quite happily without it.

[carnac_fett]

It's not just about principle, I'm sure people at BW played WoW and saw the LFD tool destroy WoW's community just as easily as I saw it.

 

We will have to agree to disagree, then, because our disagreement stems from our different interpretations of what 'destroyed' WoW's community.

 

You believe that the LFD tool destroyed WoW's community.

 

I believe that WoW's community destroyed WoW's community.

 

Bioware has a lot of money to earn back after sinking millions into this game. I don't think they can do that by forcing people to set up vast social networks in order to engage in any meaningful group content. The small, tight-knit community won't be enough to sustain it unless monthly fees are raised and fundraisers are set up.

[Yfelsung]

Well, at least you're reasonable about it. I see people arguing that the current LFG tool is perfect, which is ridiculous.

 

I don't see how an LFG queue would enable someone like Packhunter to carry on. If he has a bad reputation, he's going to be excluded from a group. If there's no queue, he's excluded from the get-go. If there's a queue, he's kicked from the group after thirty seconds. Either way, no Packhunter.

 

The reason isn't Packhunter, it's the rest of the community.

 

If we'd had an LFD tool, we would not have had to create an extensive social structure.

 

If we didn't have that social structure, we wouldn't have had the power to ostracise Packhunter.

 

Since we had no LFD tool, we HAD to create a massive social network within the game. Because we HAD TO, it was there when we needed it.

 

If we have LFD, the massive social network would likely never form, and therefore many players on the server wouldn't know Packhunter is an *** and we'd have been unable to blacklist him so entirely.

 

The idea of an LFD tool is sound. The problem lies when you interact human nature with the LFD tool.

 

Countless great ideas and inventions in history have been made terrible because the human equation is usually hard to predict.

 

On paper, nothing about the LFD tool says it would destroy a community.

 

But, in practice, it did. Why? Who knows. It seems like it would have been such a harmless tool, but it GUTTED many WoW servers. They became places anonymity.

 

They say necessity is the mother of invention, so when you MUST socialize, you will. Once you don't have to, most won't, even if they'd be better off if they did.

[Shortwave]

How did people doing 5 man pugs tear the game apart? And dual spec? Really?

 

Please explain.

 

I will say there should be no bonus rewards for using the tool. The fast group is the reward.

 

I never said 5 man pugs tore the game apart, what are you talking about? Dual spec took inconsiderate looting practices to an entirely new level. It was bad before, but augmented by dual spec.

 

Again, a cross server LFD will hurt this community more than it will help it. Pugs? Cool, run 'em all day - but when those pugs are drawn from different servers and thrown into an instance not only will it prove to be a breeding ground for jerks, but it helps to remove player accountability.

 

 

 

 

How odd, I sat there in WoW and watched as Dual Spec gave me an amazing amount of freedom with my character and later LFD enabled me to log on with only 45 minutes to spare and still get a dungeon run in.

 

I had a lot of fun with it.

 

People like to pretend that WoW only developed an awful community after LFD came out. It helps their points when they argue on the internet. Unfortunately, it is blatant misinformation.

 

WoW, or any other online gaming community, is not a utopia. I honestly thought that would have went without saying, but there you are. What LFD did in WoW was to act as a catalyst for bringing about and allowing to flower the worst aspects of the community. That is to say, LFD is conducive to lousy community elements, and those lousy elements will manifest in a cross realm group to a far greater degree than with in server groups. LFD Brings all the nastiness of a community to the surface.

 

Yeah, true - you'll get your 45 minute speed runs, but it'll come at a cost... like almost anything in life that is rushed.

[alkanterah]

It's not just about principle, I'm sure people at BW played WoW and saw the LFD tool destroy WoW's community just as easily as I saw it.

 

LFD tools destroy communities, BW knows this. It's not principle stopping them from putting in an LFD tool, it's the desire to maintain a good and strong community.

 

Stephen Reid said as much

Stephen Reid:

 

We're aware of this desire, but we actually believe that finding others on the same planet as you encourages social interaction a bit more than a general 'group finder'. We're not saying it'll never, ever happen but again, not high priority right now.

 

Sure, we MAY get one, as he said, but they made it clear their reasoning is that THEY ALSO BELIEVE that an LFD tool would decrease socialization.

 

I think LFD tools destroy communities

 

Stephen Reid agrees with me.

 

It's not about principle, it's about community. A strong community is the MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT of an MMO.

 

That's clearly why they put all of the flashpoints on the fleet. It's also why it's a fantastically lagged out mess where no one enjoy's hanging out because that's where they have to be to form flashpoint groups.

 

If anything, and I've said it once, all the chat channel spam to form groups does MORE harm to the community. Flashpoints are short, sweet, I've done several where no one said a word, and I fail to see how the community was enforced by doing them.

 

 

The reason isn't Packhunter, it's the rest of the community.

 

If we'd had an LFD tool, we would not have had to create an extensive social structure.

 

If we didn't have that social structure, we wouldn't have had the power to ostracise Packhunter.

 

Since we had no LFD tool, we HAD to create a massive social network within the game. Because we HAD TO, it was there when we needed it.

 

If we have LFD, the massive social network would likely never form, and therefore many players on the server wouldn't know Packhunter is an *** and we'd have been unable to blacklist him so entirely.

 

The idea of an LFD tool is sound. The problem lies when you interact human nature with the LFD tool.

 

Countless great ideas and inventions in history have been made terrible because the human equation is usually hard to predict.

 

On paper, nothing about the LFD tool says it would destroy a community.

 

But, in practice, it did. Why? Who knows. It seems like it would have been such a harmless tool, but it GUTTED many WoW servers. They became places anonymity.

 

They say necessity is the mother of invention, so when you MUST socialize, you will. Once you don't have to, most won't, even if they'd be better off if they did.

 

That's a really solid argument for older games like EQ2 for example where when you joined a group it was typically for several hours. It simply doesn't apply here for flash points, not in this game.

Edited January 1, 2012 by alkanterah

[Yfelsung]

We will have to agree to disagree, then, because our disagreement stems from our different interpretations of what 'destroyed' WoW's community.

 

You believe that the LFD tool destroyed WoW's community.

 

I believe that WoW's community destroyed WoW's community.

 

Bioware has a lot of money to earn back after sinking millions into this game. I don't think they can do that by forcing people to set up vast social networks in order to engage in any meaningful group content. The small, tight-knit community won't be enough to sustain it unless monthly fees are raised and fundraisers are set up.

 

We may disagree, but my point is that BIOWARE, or at least Stephen Reid, agrees with my assessment that LFD tools destroy communties.

 

Since Bioware's opinion is, in this situation, the only important one then what you or I believe about an LFD tool is inconsequential.

 

But, since they already lean in my direction, every post I make agreeing with them gives them more reason to "stick to their guns."

 

I worked for Xbox for 3 years. We damn well knew we had an over 50% fail rate on 360s, but we had enough of a dedicated fanbase of people who would defend the 360 to death that it allowed us to just kind of ignore the failure rate.

 

These forum arguments, in the end, aren't about fact. They're about the ability to manipulate the emotions of the people in charge.

 

So when you say "Bioware, you're wrong, we need an LFD tool" all I gotta do is pat them on the back and go "nah bro, it's cool, you're doing great."

 

Internet arguments aren't about facts, they're about manipulation.

[NovusAnimus]

Cross-server auto-queuing auto-team-comp LFD: absolutely horrible idea.

 

A better LFG tool that makes it easier to find people on your own server for certain quests: great idea.

 

 

How hard can it be to add to the tracker on the right side of the screen a checkbox that says "make LFG for this quest", and beside it a button you can click that shows other people who are LFG for this quest?