The real reason "premades" are a problem

[AocaVII]

Pre-mades are not the problem. Bad players are the problem. The reason being is that for 8 years since launch you were able to cue solo and beat pre-mades both in DPS, kills, and win the war zone.

We delusional? You have players that are doing DPS numbers, and damage that are from 1.0.

Why do you even have to gear if you're not going to attack anything and just click stuff? What do you think the gear stats on the weapons are for they are to kill other players and pressure them so you can do the objectives.

The only time pre-mades are a problem and where I don't participate is if I don't see any other premades on then I don't go into a pre-made. No need for a pre-made if there's none others on.

[Artemisswtor]

I don't get it. Someone use small words and tell me why we need ranked back?  
Everyone that pvp is put together.  What's wrong with that?  As I said, we just need to give the match making software the ability to move all premades to a separate queue which will allow matchmaking to do its job which is to strive for perfect balance.  Let's work on balance first and when that's done, we can talk about how to grow the population in a separate thread like server merger or whatever and we can all look into our crystal balls and discuss if we think they'll do it or not. But I digress.  Right now all we should be doing is pushing for them to give matchmaking making software the means to put all premades into their own separate queue and this would give the most benefit when striving for perfect balance and will create competition which we all desire since a close fight is the best fight.

[Artemisswtor]

On 3/6/2024 at 9:09 PM, Wolvel said:

If premades where not a problem then you should've been able to group up for ranked. You where not so the debate about premades being a problem against solo groups or not is moot.

The real question is if there was a solo only queue would the group queue die immediately the same way group ranked did.

The og poster of this thread is talking about premades and matchmaking.  Why are you bringing up group queue dying?  This is a topic about low population issue and you should make a separate thread on how to raise the population for pvp queue and not derail his thread with a separate issue. This thread here is discussing premades and matchmaking while low pvp population is a separate issue.

Edited March 12 by Artemisswtor
Changed and word to while

[AocaVII]

38 minutes ago, Artemisswtor said:

I don't get it. Someone use small words and tell me why we need ranked back?  
Everyone that pvp is put together.  What's wrong with that?  As I said, we just need to give the match making software the ability to move all premades to a separate queue which will allow matchmaking to do its job which is to strive for perfect balance.  Let's work on balance first and when that's done, we can talk about how to grow the population in a separate thread like server merger or whatever and we can all look into our crystal balls and discuss if we think they'll do it or not. But I digress.  Right now all we should be doing is pushing for them to give matchmaking making software the means to put all premades into their own separate queue and this would give the most benefit when striving for perfect balance and will create competition which we all desire since a close fight is the best fight.

They won't fix PvP. 8m premades are rare rn.

They chased away a majority of good players by not listening to feedback.

 

This did two things and this is why PvP is messed up:

1 the player quality was reduced to where you can't beat pms anymore,  solo qd.

2 queuing solo too there's not enough people in the queue to have two separate cues or for mm to work.

I don't join 4+ premades unless I see others or the players are so bad that we need at least and average player to make wzs playable.

If you were to read the post above you see people cannot PVP they are awful pretty much reprehensible, they just take up space in the war zone.

They are the cause of the state of PVP right now but originally it was because feedback was not listened to so now we're stuck with the bad players and the pre-mades and the unbalance.

Again the issue is because the players are not good enough. I don't know how people can't see this. I must have qd thousands of times solo and beat premades over 8 years so you can't tell me it's the pre-made's problem.

A lot of the players are just there for rewards and they are lazy because they don't practice rotations, make keybinds, learn their class and many other things which make them very poor at PVP.

The people that you see are good are good because and practice and lots of it.

You have people that play that don't even know how to zoom the camera fully out also, have players that can't run and shoot/heal at the same time; it's ridiculous. They don't pop defensive cooldowns. Basically they're not people that can PVP.

To top it off, they think they know everything about PVP and won't listen to players that have experience.

Edited March 12 by AocaVII

[Artemisswtor]

I was being constructive as to the best path going forward.

[AocaVII]

55 minutes ago, Artemisswtor said:

I don't get it. Someone use small words and tell me why we need ranked back?  
Everyone that pvp is put together.  What's wrong with that?  As I said, we just need to give the match making software the ability to move all premades to a separate queue which will allow matchmaking to do its job which is to strive for perfect balance.  Let's work on balance first and when that's done, we can talk about how to grow the population in a separate thread like server merger or whatever and we can all look into our crystal balls and discuss if we think they'll do it or not. But I digress.  Right now all we should be doing is pushing for them to give matchmaking making software the means to put all premades into their own separate queue and this would give the most benefit when striving for perfect balance and will create competition which we all desire since a close fight is the best fight.

 

17 minutes ago, Artemisswtor said:

I was being constructive as to the best path going forward.

The best path is for people to go on YouTube search for ivano swtor and look at his PVP for beginners because the players suck. It's not something that they will fix.

Btw I'm not Ivano but he has good videos for beginners PvP.

And again referring to the original post that I put up they will not fix PVP. It has to be fixed by the players. 

Edited March 12 by AocaVII

[RACATW]

On 3/10/2024 at 5:24 AM, TrixxieTriss said:

Which is another reason why I said it would need to be a solo queue.

There's not enough pop to split the q. It's better to limit groups to 2-4.

[RACATW]

On 3/12/2024 at 7:44 PM, AocaVII said:

 

The best path is for people to go on YouTube search for ivano swtor and look at his PVP for beginners because the players suck. It's not something that they will fix.

Btw I'm not Ivano but he has good videos for beginners PvP.

And again referring to the original post that I put up they will not fix PVP. It has to be fixed by the players. 

I was playing with some of the weirdest "objective" players the other day. To start 4 went our side node (who knows why, because none of the enemy players went there), and 2 went to the enemy side node (???).

 

So I went mid with one other guy and fought all 8 of the opposing players at mid. Ok great.

 

Then we lost the game. (because our team had "objective" players)

 

We only had 2 pvp players.

[VegaMist]

5 hours ago, RACATW said:

I was playing with some of the weirdest "objective" players the other day. To start 4 went our side node (who knows why, because none of the enemy players went there), and 2 went to the enemy side node (???).

 

So I went mid with one other guy and fought all 8 of the opposing players at mid. Ok great.

 

Then we lost the game. (because our team had "objective" players)

 

We only had 2 pvp players.

That's not "objective players" - that's "don't know how to play" players. "Objective players" are the ones who recognize what's going on and play accordingly to fulfill the objective. For example, when your team has a left nod, the enemy has the right nod, and mid is contested with little hope for either team to cap it, an "objective player" (especially if they can stealth) may go to the enemy nod to either steal it or draw enough enemy players from mid which would allow their team to cap it. Objective player may also be the one guarding an objective (solo) and calling out for help as needed. Objective player may be running back and forth between the nods to counter attacking enemies. Objective players fight on doors or nods effectively preventing enemy from opening a door or capturing a nod. Objective player takes the ball and either tries to score with it or passes it to someone who scores, or runs into the end zone in order to grab said ball, or assists the ball carrier by healing, guarding, or beating enemies off of them.

Objective player DOES NOT run to capture a nod when multiple other players are running for the same nod with no enemy in sight. Neither do they camp in the end zone when there are other players in there already. They also don't try to open a door non-stop while enemy players not just clearly see them but are constantly beating on them.

In other words, objective players understand the objectives in each specific case and do their best to help their team and eventually win the game.

[RACATW]

22 hours ago, VegaMist said:

That's not "objective players" - that's "don't know how to play" players. "Objective players" are the ones who recognize what's going on and play accordingly to fulfill the objective. For example, when your team has a left nod, the enemy has the right nod, and mid is contested with little hope for either team to cap it, an "objective player" (especially if they can stealth) may go to the enemy nod to either steal it or draw enough enemy players from mid which would allow their team to cap it. Objective player may also be the one guarding an objective (solo) and calling out for help as needed. Objective player may be running back and forth between the nods to counter attacking enemies. Objective players fight on doors or nods effectively preventing enemy from opening a door or capturing a nod. Objective player takes the ball and either tries to score with it or passes it to someone who scores, or runs into the end zone in order to grab said ball, or assists the ball carrier by healing, guarding, or beating enemies off of them.

Objective player DOES NOT run to capture a nod when multiple other players are running for the same nod with no enemy in sight. Neither do they camp in the end zone when there are other players in there already. They also don't try to open a door non-stop while enemy players not just clearly see them but are constantly beating on them.

In other words, objective players understand the objectives in each specific case and do their best to help their team and eventually win the game.

When I tell them that, they yell at me saying they're playing objectives. So they think (unfortunately) that they know how to play.

[VegaMist]

17 minutes ago, RACATW said:

When I tell them that, they yell at me saying they're playing objectives. So they think (unfortunately) that they know how to play.

Hopefully, one day they'll learn. And if they don't, they'll eventually leave pvp, since they'd get frustrated by always losing. I've seen both. Not sorry to lose those who refuse to learn. And absolutely love seeing those who choose to learn evolve. There are quite a few players - complete strangers that stood out for some reason - who I saw go from a complete noob to a formidable force in pvp, and it's beautiful.

[Darkestmonty]

2 hours ago, RACATW said:

When I tell them that, they yell at me saying they're playing objectives. So they think (unfortunately) that they know how to play.

If your team has one node and the enemy has the other but you are a few points ahead of the enemy, the best tactic is keep the middle neutral if you have done so without massive losses already.

Breaking off to try and take the node the enemy team already has, most of the time, makes you lose mid and most teams have a low chance of killing all the enemies at the enemy node and capturing it.

It takes a single tap to stop a person from capturing a node, it takes a lot more work to kill enemies and take a node from them.

[VegaMist]

1 hour ago, Darkestmonty said:

If your team has one node and the enemy has the other but you are a few points ahead of the enemy, the best tactic is keep the middle neutral if you have done so without massive losses already.

Breaking off to try and take the node the enemy team already has, most of the time, makes you lose mid and most teams have a low chance of killing all the enemies at the enemy node and capturing it.

It takes a single tap to stop a person from capturing a node, it takes a lot more work to kill enemies and take a node from them.

All situational - need to read it as it happens and act accordingly (often, it's your team that will be few points behind, and if you're ahead, enemy will be trying to steal your nod). Either or neither strategy may succeed - there is no one size fits all. And every once in a while, you'll do the math, count 8 enemies fighting your team (happens more often than you'd think, especially facing against DPS oriented group), and can take an advantage of an unguarded nod. Also, as I mentioned, going to steal the nod serves two goals: 1) you may successfully steal it (done it enough times myself, plus seen enough players who're exceptionally good at it), and 2) if a guard calls for help (especially if several end up answering the call), your team will be facing fewer enemies in mid, gaining an advantage, and potentially capturing it (done that successfully enough times as well). At the end of the day, no fight or team is the same, so you need to always stay flexible and adapt.

[Darkestmonty]

9 minutes ago, VegaMist said:

All situational - need to read it as it happens and act accordingly (often, it's your team that will be few points behind, and if you're ahead, enemy will be trying to steal your nod). Either or neither strategy may succeed - there is no one size fits all. And every once in a while, you'll do the math, count 8 enemies fighting your team (happens more often than you'd think, especially facing against DPS oriented group), and can take an advantage of an unguarded nod. Also, as I mentioned, going to steal the nod serves two goals: 1) you may successfully steal it (done it enough times myself, plus seen enough players who're exceptionally good at it), and 2) if a guard calls for help (especially if several end up answering the call), your team will be facing fewer enemies in mid, gaining an advantage, and potentially capturing it (done that successfully enough times as well). At the end of the day, no fight or team is the same, so you need to always stay flexible and adapt.

I've seen too many people try this, fail to capture the enemy turret after dragging 4 others with them, then the enemy captures mid and keeps their turret.

I'm more conservative with defense because tapping players once to stop them from capturing is very easy and it works both ways.

[TrixxieTriss]

On 3/20/2024 at 5:32 AM, RACATW said:

There's not enough pop to split the q. It's better to limit groups to 2-4.

I think you missed the point. We weren’t talking about the regs queue, we were talking about a possible 8v8 ranked queue.

My point was that a ranked 8v8 queue only works if it is set up as a solo queue. There really isn’t enough players for a group queue too. And to be frank, I’m not even sure there are enough people to have 8v8 ranked either. BW/BS made sure of that when they drove the majority of ranked players from the game. 

And while I would love an 8v8 solo ranked format, realistically they aren’t going to do it & there aren’t enough players to add another PvP queue. 

What they could do to add some form of competitive play back into the game is adjust the current 8v8 & 4v4 system. Give everyone seperate ELO’s for queuing solo & premade for both arena & WZ’s. Reduce the premade size limits back to 4 man for WZ’s & make it 2 man for Arena. Then adjust the algorithm to force premades v premades.

One suggestion I read was if solo players are put in a pre-made game & they lose, then it should not affect their ranking. If a pre-made wins against solo players, it doesn’t increase ranking. It only increases if they play other premades. But if the premade loses to solo players they do lose ranking. 

To get around most casual people being shy about their public rankings, only the top 100 players (regardless of which Alt character they use) would have their ranking on the website. Anyone else wanting their rank public would have to opt in for that to happen. You would always be able to see your own rank & ELO per character, but others wouldn’t be able to see it unless you choose to share it. 

This way you get a version of ranked without calling it ranked or needing a seperate queue. They can work out rewards to correspond with PvP seasons or run this between seasons as an extra thing to keep people pvping between seasons. 

Edited March 22 by TrixxieTriss

[SentinalMasterWW]

Stating my 5 Cents here. 

Premades and horrible Matchmaking are both the issue. Premades because the MM to essentially give out and throw newbies and or solo Q's against a 4-6 Man Premade, which in turn leads to the issues players face today. Basically whenever a Premade Q's, the MM struggles to match accordingly, and in turns throws whatever at the wall and that's the team balancing. 

Another thing that occurs is that Premades abuse the MM system, by opting or leaving matches as soon as they come across another premade. I've seen it happen so many times where as soon as everyone spawns in, the premade bails. They don't want an even fight to fight another premade, They want to farm solo Q's for EZ kills and and to feed their egos. This is not even bringing up the fact that almost every premade nowadays is just number farming, they sabotage their own teams wins just so they can continue farming the other team.

Regarding MM, my general theory is that there is just not enough skilled players to balance both teams out. For example, One team will have a mixed of new players and veterans while the other will be all new, or it will turn out that one team is all veterans and the other is all new. It can be easy to say its a premade on the other team, but in actuality its just because there is not enough skilled players actually playing to balance evenly. I know people memed on the Ranked Community leaving, but in reality the PVP community lost a vast majority of its skilled playerbase. 

On 3/12/2024 at 4:33 PM, AocaVII said:

1 the player quality was reduced to where you can't beat pms anymore,  solo qd.

2 queuing solo too there's not enough people in the queue to have two separate cues or for mm to work.

This actually has some truth and merit to it, I've been on teams against premades where is was some highly skilled rando solo players (usually ex ranked players) and we were able to fend off a sweaty premade. This is very rare though, as stated in previous point. 

Regarding how many Premades are active, at least on Star Forge there are 3-4 that come to mind that are infamous for just farming players and being toxic beyond belief. 

Regarding a solution, its literally an Occam's razor deal, just limit premades back down to 4 for Warzones, and two for Arenas. The game mode even advertises for Warzones and i quote "up to four friends". The dev's clearly know that their 8 man premade idea doesn't work in practice, they just don't care about the PVP Community (or any community that doesn't buy their Cartel Market content). 

I also want to add an addendum that imo, I think Time to kill should go up. It is currently far to easy to push a team back into their spawn, I've been on the sending end and receiving end of it. By increasing TTK you do the following; 

1. Premades have a much harder time farming players, increased TTK means that players will survive longer and have a better chance at fighting back. 

2. New players have more breathing room to fight, and are not nuked the moment they come out of spawn. 

3. It becomes much harder to push players back into their spawn and will actually punish players for trying to spawn camp as they cannot meet the DPS checks to keep the other team locked in. 

TLDR; Limit Premade size and increase TTK are my solutions to fixing Premade farms. 

 

 

[RACATW]

9 hours ago, SentinalMasterWW said:

Stating my 5 Cents here. 

Premades and horrible Matchmaking are both the issue. Premades because the MM to essentially give out and throw newbies and or solo Q's against a 4-6 Man Premade, which in turn leads to the issues players face today. Basically whenever a Premade Q's, the MM struggles to match accordingly, and in turns throws whatever at the wall and that's the team balancing. 

Another thing that occurs is that Premades abuse the MM system, by opting or leaving matches as soon as they come across another premade. I've seen it happen so many times where as soon as everyone spawns in, the premade bails. They don't want an even fight to fight another premade, They want to farm solo Q's for EZ kills and and to feed their egos. This is not even bringing up the fact that almost every premade nowadays is just number farming, they sabotage their own teams wins just so they can continue farming the other team.

Regarding MM, my general theory is that there is just not enough skilled players to balance both teams out. For example, One team will have a mixed of new players and veterans while the other will be all new, or it will turn out that one team is all veterans and the other is all new. It can be easy to say its a premade on the other team, but in actuality its just because there is not enough skilled players actually playing to balance evenly. I know people memed on the Ranked Community leaving, but in reality the PVP community lost a vast majority of its skilled playerbase. 

This actually has some truth and merit to it, I've been on teams against premades where is was some highly skilled rando solo players (usually ex ranked players) and we were able to fend off a sweaty premade. This is very rare though, as stated in previous point. 

Regarding how many Premades are active, at least on Star Forge there are 3-4 that come to mind that are infamous for just farming players and being toxic beyond belief. 

Regarding a solution, its literally an Occam's razor deal, just limit premades back down to 4 for Warzones, and two for Arenas. The game mode even advertises for Warzones and i quote "up to four friends". The dev's clearly know that their 8 man premade idea doesn't work in practice, they just don't care about the PVP Community (or any community that doesn't buy their Cartel Market content). 

I also want to add an addendum that imo, I think Time to kill should go up. It is currently far to easy to push a team back into their spawn, I've been on the sending end and receiving end of it. By increasing TTK you do the following; 

1. Premades have a much harder time farming players, increased TTK means that players will survive longer and have a better chance at fighting back. 

2. New players have more breathing room to fight, and are not nuked the moment they come out of spawn. 

3. It becomes much harder to push players back into their spawn and will actually punish players for trying to spawn camp as they cannot meet the DPS checks to keep the other team locked in. 

TLDR; Limit Premade size and increase TTK are my solutions to fixing Premade farms. 

 

 

It's funny you mention this. Just last night I was innocently playing, then my team gets the top 7 players in queue (in fact all of us could have gotten gold or top 3 during a competitive ranked season back in the day, in fact some did) vs absolute noobs on the other team.

We only had one new player on our team. So we crushed the opposition completely. I really dont know what's going on with it.

[RACATW]

10 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

I think you missed the point. We weren’t talking about the regs queue, we were talking about a possible 8v8 ranked queue.

My point was that a ranked 8v8 queue only works if it is set up as a solo queue. There really isn’t enough players for a group queue too. And to be frank, I’m not even sure there are enough people to have 8v8 ranked either. BW/BS made sure of that when they drove the majority of ranked players from the game. 

And while I would love an 8v8 solo ranked format, realistically they aren’t going to do it & there aren’t enough players to add another PvP queue. 

What they could do to add some form of competitive play back into the game is adjust the current 8v8 & 4v4 system. Give everyone seperate ELO’s for queuing solo & premade for both arena & WZ’s. Reduce the premade size limits back to 4 man for WZ’s & make it 2 man for Arena. Then adjust the algorithm to force premades v premades.

One suggestion I read was if solo players are put in a pre-made game & they lose, then it should not affect their ranking. If a pre-made wins against solo players, it doesn’t increase ranking. It only increases if they play other premades. But if the premade loses to solo players they do lose ranking. 

To get around most casual people being shy about their public rankings, only the top 100 players (regardless of which Alt character they use) would have their ranking on the website. Anyone else wanting their rank public would have to opt in for that to happen. You would always be able to see your own rank & ELO per character, but others wouldn’t be able to see it unless you choose to share it. 

This way you get a version of ranked without calling it ranked or needing a seperate queue. They can work out rewards to correspond with PvP seasons or run this between seasons as an extra thing to keep people pvping between seasons. 

Generally I think it's perfectly possible for matchmaker to place truly skilled players against each other (solo or not), it just refuses to do so.

Sometimes I *know* there's another premade in q if I make a counter premade. And yet we never get matched vs them. So why is that? Matchmaker being incompetent? The people who get matched onto the team are usually complete randoms who add no value to the match against a premade.

In fact, I have no firm idea why the matchmaker even takes the amount of time it does to matchmake. I do notice lately if I play tank, sometimes it will insta pop for me spawning a new match against another decent tank. (But the other tank is queueing with a healer + premade while I'm solo). So it does attempt some role based Matchmaking still.

 

Just seems like it's so mediocre of an attempt to matchmake compared to what used to happen once in a while years ago. Maybe we can write it off as solo players being less skilled but I feel like it's a catch 22.

 

The real problem is that matchmaker might be attempting to place the highest rated ELO in a premade group against the highest rated ELO of a solo player (this happened even back in 2018 according to patch notes back then iirc). That would be very dumb, because you need the ELO's on each team to all be roughly equal. Not just in median skill, but within a bracket for each player.

You can notice if a premade group faces off against another one (7vs7), then you queue solo and one noob queues solo, your team will win because you were the massively differentiating factor.

[Wulfurkin]

On 3/12/2024 at 5:25 PM, AocaVII said:

Pre-mades are not the problem. Bad players are the problem. The reason being is that for 8 years since launch you were able to cue solo and beat pre-mades both in DPS, kills, and win the war zone.

We delusional? You have players that are doing DPS numbers, and damage that are from 1.0.

Why do you even have to gear if you're not going to attack anything and just click stuff? What do you think the gear stats on the weapons are for they are to kill other players and pressure them so you can do the objectives.

The only time pre-mades are a problem and where I don't participate is if I don't see any other premades on then I don't go into a pre-made. No need for a pre-made if there's none others on.

I think this isnt fair to say because of how difficult it is now to be even moderately effective in pvp. The poor class balance combined with a very short ttk means most newer players are going to struggle to survive for even a few seconds after leaving spawn. The game demands a constant execution of flawless ability combinations, if you are off even slightly it already drastically decreases your numbers. The pruning of abilities makes it worse because it means there are fewer ways to do a rotation properly. These issues are aggrevated by premades because they are made up of groups of players who understand that this is how the game works and will use that to keep pug players in the dead box the whole match. After a few matches like this its understandable that players on the receiving end will just find a captured node to cling to so they can at least get their 7 medals. On a side note, thats actually one of the reasons why i think that number should be reduced to 6. 

[Ajalkaar]

On 3/13/2024 at 12:17 AM, Artemisswtor said:

The og poster of this thread is talking about premades and matchmaking.  Why are you bringing up group queue dying?  This is a topic about low population issue and you should make a separate thread on how to raise the population for pvp queue and not derail his thread with a separate issue. This thread here is discussing premades and matchmaking while low pvp population is a separate issue.

He's talking about group queue dying because this is what would happen if you do separate queues. You can't just propose to make an solo and a group queue without facing the consequences and the fact that the game simply don't have enough players for that. You can't just make a group queue for 16 players that will work with the actual PvP population that's as simple as that so stop proposing this dumb idea.

 

On 3/13/2024 at 12:02 AM, Artemisswtor said:

I don't get it. Someone use small words and tell me why we need ranked back?  
Everyone that pvp is put together.  What's wrong with that?  As I said, we just need to give the match making software the ability to move all premades to a separate queue which will allow matchmaking to do its job which is to strive for perfect balance.  Let's work on balance first and when that's done, we can talk about how to grow the population in a separate thread like server merger or whatever and we can all look into our crystal balls and discuss if we think they'll do it or not. But I digress.  Right now all we should be doing is pushing for them to give matchmaking making software the means to put all premades into their own separate queue and this would give the most benefit when striving for perfect balance and will create competition which we all desire since a close fight is the best fight.

We need ranked back because PvP as to be a competitive mode players who want to be competitive and actually confront players can't be mixed with players that just to afk to a pylone to complete their trash PvP season it would make PvP queue in regs way more healthy and give players that want to tryhard this game mode what they want with meaningfull rewards.

As I said you can't ignore PvP population while talking about matchmaking you just can't. What you don't seem to understand is that making an algorithm that only make PvP proc when the team are perfectly balance will only result in player spending ages waiting in queue. That's why backfill exist to overide matchmaking rules and make PvP pop even if the team aren't perfectly balance. You have to chose between having a perfect matchmaking or having matches that actually pops, you can't get both and thinking otherwise is an illusion.

Also for the last time most premades aren't the problem. The game was fine for years with premades in queue why would it be a probleme now ? Because players are trash in pvp and mostly in soloQ that's the only reason, thanks to the PvP seasons for the most part and the trash decisions made by devs over the years leading to all good players actually quitting the game leaving cartel market suckers and galactic season farmers alone in pvp Q with some of the veterans that can't get over the swtor addiction.
 

Edited April 13 by Ajalkaar