The real reason "premades" are a problem

[RACATW]

SWTOR's matchmaker is ****, it's **** because it's based off wins internally for warzone ELO. 

So now you put a premade that doesn't give a **** about wins in a warzone together with a **** matchmaker based on wins, what do you get? **** matchmaking. Why don't ex solo arena players care about wins in warzones? Because they only cared about wins in arenas. Thanks for coming to my tedtalk.

[Darkestmonty]

A group that only damage farms and actively stops their own team mates from capping or scoring so they stay low on wins is extremely toxic. I had one team constantly pull me from arming voidstar doors because "we don't want to win and be placed against harder teams".

I don't know if it works like that for warzones but that premade was intentionally tanking games while dragging them out to try and farm the lowest skilled teams for fun.

[Zunayson]

That would be toxic but I have never seen that happen. I would expect premades to be better players anyways and just be better at damage farming and making the enemy team mad. 

I've been in some bad premades and they were so bad I doubt the other team even realized they were against a premade. So theres additional biases that would suggest "premades" give the other team a bad experience 

[Alericus]

53 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

A group that only damage farms and actively stops their own team mates from capping or scoring so they stay low on wins is extremely toxic. I had one team constantly pull me from arming voidstar doors because "we don't want to win and be placed against harder teams".

I don't know if it works like that for warzones but that premade was intentionally tanking games while dragging them out to try and farm the lowest skilled teams for fun.

Id report them for win trading myself

[kjarnage]

It is my understanding that match making is not based on wins.  Farming teams do not want scoring to end the session early.  Farming for medals. Farming for high damage healing protection scores and kills. If they were avoiding wins all the time they would just be put against the next players that queue in.

[Darkestmonty]

53 minutes ago, kjarnage said:

It is my understanding that match making is not based on wins.  Farming teams do not want scoring to end the session early.  Farming for medals. Farming for high damage healing protection scores and kills. If they were avoiding wins all the time they would just be put against the next players that queue in.

that's my thought, we lack the population to have decent match making based on wins but the premade team I was stuck with started cursing me out and telling me to stop as their sorcs/sages kept pulling me mid plant.

I dislike premade teams versus pugs, but at least premades trying to win are playing the objectives. DPS farmers who drag out games and lose intentionally taking the rest of the team down with them are what set me against premades entirely.

Edited March 5 by Darkestmonty

[RACATW]

10 hours ago, kjarnage said:

It is my understanding that match making is not based on wins.  Farming teams do not want scoring to end the session early.  Farming for medals. Farming for high damage healing protection scores and kills. If they were avoiding wins all the time they would just be put against the next players that queue in.

You're supposed to have a 50% win rate so matchmaker tries its absolute best to get you around there. The main thing it uses are wins. You also always get more medals for winning. 

 

If you're trying not to win all the time it puts you against very bad players who can't win. Effectively it sinks your ELO.

 

Warzones have always had an internal elo, it's used to help people have higher win rates (get them to 50%).

[dftu]

18 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

A group that only damage farms and actively stops their own team mates from capping or scoring so they stay low on wins is extremely toxic. I had one team constantly pull me from arming voidstar doors because "we don't want to win and be placed against harder teams".

I don't know if it works like that for warzones but that premade was intentionally tanking games while dragging them out to try and farm the lowest skilled teams for fun.

13 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

that's my thought, we lack the population to have decent match making based on wins but the premade team I was stuck with started cursing me out and telling me to stop as their sorcs/sages kept pulling me mid plant.

I dislike premade teams versus pugs, but at least premades trying to win are playing the objectives. DPS farmers who drag out games and lose intentionally taking the rest of the team down with them are what set me against premades entirely.

Yeah, I never see it happen either, and when I do play in a "damage farming" or "kill farming" premade, we end up playing the objective anyway since we're already playing in the objective area. It's better for us too since we want to go up against those other premades and better teams that queue rather than PUGs who don't have the same coordination. 

[septru]

Yes, completely agree. But this is a issue of matchmaking and reward incentives, not premades. 

[Artemisswtor]

Of course premades are an issue of matchmaking. The job of the matchmaking software is to make both sides balanced.  The biggest balance that can be possibly be made is to put premades in their own queue.  The matchmaking software needs to put premades into their own separate queue to providing the biggest benefit to balance (the intent of the software) that can possibly be made and SWTOR needs to address this issue.

 

Lets get balance sorted out and then we can work on population.

[Wolvel]

If premades where not a problem then you should've been able to group up for ranked. You where not so the debate about premades being a problem against solo groups or not is moot.

The real question is if there was a solo only queue would the group queue die immediately the same way group ranked did.

[DeannaVoyager]

3 hours ago, Wolvel said:

The real question is if there was a solo only queue would the group queue die immediately the same way group ranked did.

It would probably change to match how pve groups are formed now: 

- You want to do ops? Find 7/15 more people, walk in.
- You want to do MM fps? Find a tank and a healer before even trying to queue.
- Want to do group pvp? Find a group of players who want the same, form two groups, queue. 

I don't see a problem with that.

[Wolvel]

19 hours ago, DeannaVoyager said:

- Want to do group pvp? Find a group of players who want the same, form two groups, queue. 

Why would current regs act any different now then old solo vs group ranked? We saw a clear trend twords solo being vastly more populated but all of a sudden you think that group pvp will be more populated?

[DeannaVoyager]

3 hours ago, Wolvel said:

Why would current regs act any different now then old solo vs group ranked? We saw a clear trend twords solo being vastly more populated but all of a sudden you think that group pvp will be more populated?

I don't think that. I just put pve and pvp grouping on the same level for comparison. Some pve activities require people to form a group without GF, pvp could be the same.  

[Ajalkaar]

On 3/4/2024 at 11:36 PM, RACATW said:

SWTOR's matchmaker is ****, it's **** because it's based off wins internally for warzone ELO. 

So now you put a premade that doesn't give a **** about wins in a warzone together with a **** matchmaker based on wins, what do you get? **** matchmaking. Why don't ex solo arena players care about wins in warzones? Because they only cared about wins in arenas. Thanks for coming to my tedtalk.

You don't have any clue of what you are talking about don't you. Before I start I'm playing PvP solo most of the time so don't use the premade argument against me.

Ok let's start, ,first of all even if there is an elo system I hardly doubt it's only based on just winrate in WZ otherwise I wouldn't get trash teams and  matches against premades every time there's one in Q. 

Don't you know how the matchmaking algorithm works? There's a list of priorities, and every time a priority can't be met, it gets overridden by the next priority. But this king of algo can only works well if the player base in q is sufficient wich isn't the case in SWTOR. The lack of ppl in Q result in a lot of overridden priorities wich is called "backfill" that's why the matchmaking seems rigged.

Also even if I agree with the fact that premades should be 4 players max, premades have never been an issue until now, except for a few TOP ranked teams that came with a healer and tank. Now its start to bother ppl because balancing is trash and the large majority of players are really bad because a lot of new players tried pvp because of the pvp season and a lot of experienced player quit the game and can't carry them against premades anymore (even bad ones).

 

And last thing premades doesn't only care about winning arenas otherwise they would only be in arena Q.

Also about player not playing objectives and farming kills I'll ask you a question: why shouldn't I be forced to play objectives ?
I'm playing this game for a long time now and I've done the objectives hundreds of times and I can affirm that they are very boring to me. I'm playing PvP because I love to confront and fight other players. Objectives don't encourage getting in fights the way players are doing it and most of the time you'l just do a marathon all over the map just to cap points. Objectives are boring in their design but also because most players are very bad at it and can't even defend a point 3v1 so why you I waste my time doing something that bored me to see my team losing anyway. 
When I'm Qing PvP I expect to fight other players for 15min straight and not afk to a pylone just to get a win. Also there's not rewards for winning anyway.

And don't use the "go in arena" argument this is the same problem on a lot of classes arena aren't fun because half of your team get globalled every round.
You want to play objectives good for you I'll kill the enemy team for you wich actually makes your job easier. Sometimes ppl seems to forget what PvP stands for.

Edited March 8 by Ajalkaar

[Ajalkaar]

On 3/5/2024 at 1:28 AM, Darkestmonty said:

A group that only damage farms and actively stops their own team mates from capping or scoring so they stay low on wins is extremely toxic. I had one team constantly pull me from arming voidstar doors because "we don't want to win and be placed against harder teams".

I don't know if it works like that for warzones but that premade was intentionally tanking games while dragging them out to try and farm the lowest skilled teams for fun.

premades don't do that to get put against "lower skilled teams" xD they're just doing it to make the match longer. Also that's not how the elo system and matchmaking works

[RACATW]

5 hours ago, Ajalkaar said:

You don't have any clue of what you are talking about don't you. Before I start I'm playing PvP solo most of the time so don't use the premade argument against me.

Ok let's start, ,first of all even if there is an elo system I hardly doubt it's only based on just winrate in WZ otherwise I wouldn't get trash teams and  matches against premades every time there's one in Q. 

Don't you know how the matchmaking algorithm works? There's a list of priorities, and every time a priority can't be met, it gets overridden by the next priority. But this king of algo can only works well if the player base in q is sufficient wich isn't the case in SWTOR. The lack of ppl in Q result in a lot of overridden priorities wich is called "backfill" that's why the matchmaking seems rigged.

Also even if I agree with the fact that premades should be 4 players max, premades have never been an issue until now, except for a few TOP ranked teams that came with a healer and tank. Now its start to bother ppl because balancing is trash and the large majority of players are really bad because a lot of new players tried pvp because of the pvp season and a lot of experienced player quit the game and can't carry them against premades anymore (even bad ones).

 

And last thing premades doesn't only care about winning arenas otherwise they would only be in arena Q.

Also about player not playing objectives and farming kills I'll ask you a question: why shouldn't I be forced to play objectives ?
I'm playing this game for a long time now and I've done the objectives hundreds of times and I can affirm that they are very boring to me. I'm playing PvP because I love to confront and fight other players. Objectives don't encourage getting in fights the way players are doing it and most of the time you'l just do a marathon all over the map just to cap points. Objectives are boring in their design but also because most players are very bad at it and can't even defend a point 3v1 so why you I waste my time doing something that bored me to see my team losing anyway. 
When I'm Qing PvP I expect to fight other players for 15min straight and not afk to a pylone just to get a win. Also there's not rewards for winning anyway.

And don't use the "go in arena" argument this is the same problem on a lot of classes arena aren't fun because half of your team get globalled every round.
You want to play objectives good for you I'll kill the enemy team for you wich actually makes your job easier. Sometimes ppl seems to forget what PvP stands for.

Yes there's an elo system.

Years ago 8v8 unranked and ranked was entertaining but dps monkeys from solo ranked who get angst over a tank being able to guard swap are all you see now days. "Nerf healers they too stronk", "nerf tanks I'm bad, I can't manage to dps".

Why? Because player skill in general is that much worse. Objectives can be fun to base the pvp around, but conversely if someone's so bad at playing the game the only thing they can do is objectives it is not fun.

But it's also not fun to kill someone who thinks they're good because they play in a carebear ops group or full premade huddling together with other people in fear of being exposed. I already know they're a bad player.

Playing objectives as you said spreads people out in a marathon. It makes them vulnerable, you can kill your prey more easily when they're caught out away from the herd. Although ops groups these days are extra careful to protect their stragglers unfortunately since 8v8 is unranked and they don't care about the objective.

I understand people like to huddle together for protection, but I genuinely want to see more 1v1 or 1v2 action again. Those situations can be really entertaining, plus the group fights at mid.  When people genuinely are encouraged to play objectives you see much more of that, plus real fights at mid.

Some form of ranked would be nice in 8v8, since it'd force people to play better and create stragglers.

[RACATW]

6 hours ago, Ajalkaar said:

premades don't do that to get put against "lower skilled teams" xD they're just doing it to make the match longer. Also that's not how the elo system and matchmaking works

I disagree. I myself have purposely started to lose on some of my characters since coming back, to lessen the times I'm put solo against a full ops group.

[septru]

1 hour ago, RACATW said:

Dps monkeys from solo ranked who get angst over a tank being able to guard swap are all you see now days.

 

At least on SF, none of the large premades or death matchers you see are ex-ranked players. Most of the old ranked players (especially the solo ranked players that don't have the friendships to bring them back to the game) left the game in 7.2. For 90% of these ranked players, continuously farming complete bots gets boring very fast. If you see a ranked flair or title there's a 99% chance that the player on the account is not the original owner. Most ranked players sold their accounts when they quit. 

 

 

[Darkestmonty]

6 minutes ago, septru said:

 

At least on SF, none of the large premades or death matchers you see are ex-ranked players. Most of the old ranked players (especially the solo ranked players that don't have the friendships to bring them back to the game) left the game in 7.2. For 90% of these ranked players, continuously farming complete bots gets boring very fast. If you see a ranked flair or title there's a 99% chance that the player on the account is not the original owner. Most ranked players sold their accounts when they quit. 

 

 

I see the old ranked flairs from time to time in premade DPS farms and just thought it was embarrassing. It never occurred to me someone sold their account and another person is happily flaunting a flair from ranked without earning it. But that makes more sense than most of the ranked players I know joining DPS farms and intentionally losing warzones.

[septru]

1 minute ago, Darkestmonty said:

I see the old ranked flairs from time to time in premade DPS farms and just thought it was embarrassing. It never occurred to me someone sold their account and another person is happily flaunting a flair from ranked without earning it.

 

It's against the forum rules to link or otherwise promote the websites where these players sell their accounts. But it's well known to the few ranked players that are left. We all knew eachother. We know who's left, and who's gone. On SF, I can count on one hand the amount of ranked players that are left and still PvP actively. 

[TrixxieTriss]

7 hours ago, RACATW said:

Some form of ranked would be nice in 8v8, since it'd force people to play better and create stragglers

I agree, but that would only work as a solo queue. As soon as you added premades to it, all skilled matchmaking goes out the window. Plus all the best players would gravitate towards each other to form 1 or 2 teams that no one could beat. Which would essentially kill that format when ever they showed up in the queue. If there was a solo ranked 8v8 queue, I would only queue for that from now on. As long as it was popping. I’m sick of premades & terrible matchmaking. 

Edited March 9 by TrixxieTriss

[Ajalkaar]

On 3/8/2024 at 8:08 PM, RACATW said:

Yes there's an elo system.

Years ago 8v8 unranked and ranked was entertaining but dps monkeys from solo ranked who get angst over a tank being able to guard swap are all you see now days. "Nerf healers they too stronk", "nerf tanks I'm bad, I can't manage to dps".

Why? Because player skill in general is that much worse. Objectives can be fun to base the pvp around, but conversely if someone's so bad at playing the game the only thing they can do is objectives it is not fun.

But it's also not fun to kill someone who thinks they're good because they play in a carebear ops group or full premade huddling together with other people in fear of being exposed. I already know they're a bad player.

Playing objectives as you said spreads people out in a marathon. It makes them vulnerable, you can kill your prey more easily when they're caught out away from the herd. Although ops groups these days are extra careful to protect their stragglers unfortunately since 8v8 is unranked and they don't care about the objective.

I understand people like to huddle together for protection, but I genuinely want to see more 1v1 or 1v2 action again. Those situations can be really entertaining, plus the group fights at mid.  When people genuinely are encouraged to play objectives you see much more of that, plus real fights at mid.

Some form of ranked would be nice in 8v8, since it'd force people to play better and create stragglers.

I know there’s an elo system I just don’t think it’s only based on wr most premades don’t care about obj so and their win rate should be pretty everage or below everage so losing on purpose to get more games is only a thing in arena to my knowledge. If someone were pulling you to prevent you from capping it’s more likely to make the game longer.

 

Also if we’re talking about more than 4 players premades ofc there are toxic and should be deleted from the game but 4 player premades were fine and if a team is struggling against a random 4 player premade it’s more probably a skill issue than a premade issue that’s just my point.

Also killing ppl actually make the obj easier but ppl don’t seem to realize that because most of them are bad even at dealing dmg. How many times did I see 3 players struggling to kill 1 player (not even a good one). I think that’s the real problem.

If ppl where decent enough maybe objectives would be fun. But if objectives is about typing help to get globalled 1v1 I’ll pass and stick to actually PvPing which means fighting other players.

That’s the way I have fun, me and a lot of people. If most players who gets evolved enough in PvP to be good doesn’t care about obj there’s probably a reason.

Also bringing back ranked for arena and wz is absolutely the solution but they’ll probably never do it 

[Ajalkaar]

On 3/9/2024 at 3:11 AM, TrixxieTriss said:

I agree, but that would only work as a solo queue. As soon as you added premades to it, all skilled matchmaking goes out the window. Plus all the best players would gravitate towards each other to form 1 or 2 teams that no one could beat. Which would essentially kill that format when ever they showed up in the queue. If there was a solo ranked 8v8 queue, I would only queue for that from now on. As long as it was popping. I’m sick of premades & terrible matchmaking. 

Group ranked 8v8 would only be a dead queue like 4v4 was 

[TrixxieTriss]

35 minutes ago, Ajalkaar said:

Group ranked 8v8 would only be a dead queue like 4v4 was 

Which is another reason why I said it would need to be a solo queue.