I don't see a downside to no penalty if the war zone is bad and everyone just leaving and letting the war zone abort to start a new war zone that could possibly be more balanced. Yes if players don't know when a lot of players leave rapidly out of a war zone the war zone will abort. It's actually a workaround for a bad war zone. The war zone abort function is there for a reason. The reason is if the war zone is bad enough everyone can leave. It's actually a good function. It's intended to reshuffle the matchmaking and make the matches better. I said in another post. Not being able to leave when the experience of the war zone is bordering on traumatic and emotionally draining is abusive! It's like being locked in a prison or some insane asylum and you can't get out. Let people out of the prison, developers. These war zones that are just absolutely atrocious totally disgust me. I just log off.

These ideas delude players misleading them into thinking something is true when it's not which only continues this whole delusional theory about PVP that fools new players into adapting bad ideas about PVP which doesn't help improve our awful dysfunctional PVP situation. A large percentage of matches that are played are absolutely awful you might get one two out of 10 matches that are actually decent. There's a reason for that and it's how people think. You are living in a different reality than I am. I'm not adapting to your perception of reality. I know and see clearly what the class is and the state of PVP. I have played this class a very long time and observed other people play this class. Right now it is not in a good place. Most people do know this. It's not a good idea to spread ideas that are not correct for players who don't know. This is common knowledge among experienced good players. In addition, there are a lot of things in PvP that are just common knowledge that good experienced players know and what I see in war zones is the exact opposite for most of the time. Yes I realize you love the class and the genre and your blinded by that. It wouldn't be the first of many many times that I have seen this. There's many classes and specs that I loved but I played them out in their bad state and they're just not good for the game in war zones so I just don't play them anymore because they're not optimal and don't make the playing experience good for anyone. Well it's good if you want to farm players that are under false ideas but it doesn't improve balance. When I see a merc, I literally am like okay how fast can I kill him. There's not even the thought that there have the capacity to kill me. Now if I see other classes that are much better I know that I'm going to have to work much harder to not to die and kill them.

I'm glad that so many solo q players have seen this thread. The whole purpose of this thread is to make war zones better for people that don't want to face pre-mades. 👍 Which in effect will make pre-made's fight other premades. Hopefully improving the experience for everyone. There's two types of people. One just accepts the status quo and asks someone else to change or in this case broadsword to do something. Then there are other people that take matters into their own hands and try to change things. You would want to be the latter so you can control your destiny and not rely on other people too much, in order to create PVP balance ⚖️ and a pleasant experience. Also, IRL...

Any class can kill garbo players. I'm talking about real players not bots. I have had many, many six - eight person pre-mades vs pre-made with ranked and some of the best/experienced players on the server. No one ever plays a commando or mercenary for DPS. Yes the DOT spec is a higher tier however the dot spec really is not a main thing that people play in PvP that understand PVP because it makes you very immobile on a class where you already can't kite. The rotations are long and impractical in most PVP scenarios. In order to maximize your killing potential, you have to have specific circumstances which are rare. So in other words it's not reliable DPS. For example you're in a heavy melee war zone and you have four people jumping on you the whole war zone what are you going to do? Die 10 times pretty much. Example 2, the other team has great healing with tanks the highest hit mercenary dots do is below 60k; you will never kill anything. Engineering sniper hardest hit 140k or better, Juggernaut hardest hit 100K or better, Marauder 50kish but bursty, powertech 100k. To me it's just a player playing Merc dps is not quick enough to hit defensives and doesn't want to use a class with less defensives or harder to execute defenses that can do better damage/killing in more scenarios or if they just enjoy playing it, so be it. Reliable DPS that kills good players in every circumstance: marauder, power tech/non dot, engineering sniper and rage juggernaut. Assassin can be bursty but it's too squishy for regular wz, fine for arenas. Operative outside of arenas rn is a troll class Also there's two types of classes there's direct damage burst classes which actually kill things. Then on the contrary there's trolling classes which are mostly dot classes where yeah you can get 20K DPS but get three kills but you can e-flex and it looks like you're a great player. I play dot classes to troll not to actually kill good players, just for fun. And I never derp my group if I want to premade with a class that doesn't kill anything quickly. This is also why you don't nerf bursting classes because like I said in a different post I've been in this game long enough to see when they Nerf the classes in this way it is so bad that nothing dies it is the worst possible PVP you can ever imagine.

Marksman sniper is a C tier class in PvP as well as Mercenary because they both don't do sufficient damage to kill people. C tier is the worst btw. I will hold your hand here and direct you to expert PvPers on YouTube and theory crafters that test all this stuff and make tiers for classes and specs in PvP. Go to YouTube and search for swtor class tier. I don't just go there and look I know because I've played both classes/spec since launch and right now they're both not pumping out enough damage. The dcds mean nothing if you can't kill anything. This is also a bad mentality people play tanks, stealth classes, and mercenaries because of the defensives/ability to cloak so they don't instant die because they're not skilled enough to play anything swishy but they can't do any damage so there's just no point. That's like having a huge weapon that can sit there and take damage forever but never does any damage. Explain to me how that makes any sense?

I don't know sometimes I'm in a pre-made and not so much recently because I been avoiding it because it bores me killing bots but they will PVP for hours and like literally not even say a word lol

Yep sometimes I'd rather be in The Pit even or a different wz when they run all over or I do arenas. Sometimes, you get lucky and can quickly get in a few good matches in an arena because they are forced to stay in one place. I mean I enjoy healing. How am I supposed to heal people all over the place that can't kill anything? At least in an arena I get to heal every player. Some would say just make a pre-made but then you make a premade and there's nothing to heal because the other players can't do any damage to heal. It feels like you're just some healing bot, a companion, lmao They should really make you at least if your a sub to leave the warzone. I bet people would sub just to be able to leave warzone without penalty. I mean what's the point of the penalty in a war zone where there's no purpose. It's a total waste for me and everyone else to be in the war zone. It feels like being locked in a prison of insanity. Let the players out so the war zone aborts. Then you have a better chance of getting a more enjoyable warzone. I mean how would that be a bad thing if it's just a bad match and people just all start leaving and the war zone aborts and you get a better warzone who is that hurting? It would be a great thing👍⚖️ However, we know they never listen to the players and this will probably never happen.

The other team wasn't even good that's the sad part lmao It wasn't even a premade. It's just simple math two versus five you're not going to win three versus six you're not going to win. I just don't get the lack of reasoning. It's just astonishes me that people can't understand a simple thing like that lol

This is what I experienced today: I explained how to play the warzone civil war; 7 mid 1 grass, call for help. So they just don't listen 2 go to grass, 3 go to snow. So we have a 3 vs 7 at mid. Then, they take the middle, snow and all that happens is the team just randomly keeps trying to go after snow and mid for the next 15 minutes and gets farmed. I mean I have done this warzone probably 10,000 times at least. They don't listen. What are we supposed to do with people like this? LoL You can't do objectives, you can't farm when it's two versus five, three versus six, one versus four they just run all over the place aimlessly. How do they not understand this? LMAO I did more damage and killed more players alone near the grass node...then the rest of the team. I was in combat for 1/4 of the warzone.🚫 Then they blame me and say how wrong I am about how the team need to fight even fights. I mean do they live in the same solar system as we do? They die 15 times and do 300k total damage. Are they on self-destructive mode? I'm not asking for answers to these questions I already know the answers. They are too immature to even listen to someone else's instructions. I mean I'm not demanding people listen to me. I say something like this is how you play this war zone and then I go on and I explain it the way it's been played since launch. Intent is to help players and you get flamed. Like seriously, I just log off after that. I'm not going to go make a premade so I don't have to play with them and sit there and kill them in 2 seconds because it's boring. LoL how do we get rid of these players? They are like a disease for PvP. U can't. That's the bad part. All I can do is log off and log on a different time and see if it changes. It's unplayable. This has been a common occurrence for about the last year and a half. New players used to listen to more experienced players and actually do the warzone correctly. It's just like I'm totally puzzled because it's so simple and so easy to understand and they just don't do it. I can't understand their thought process.

Dude find the guide👍 In creating this thread. I realized that these players don't have it as good as we did because like I said there aren't a huge amount of great players around to show them anymore like we had that could be part of the problem. However back then they weren't guides as good as this guide to show people but it's available now. I will even give you a little bit of help finding it just go to playlists beginners PVP I believe it's titled. That's why I had mentioned some of the people that make these groups just want to stick with their friends that they know because they don't want to expand their social circle but this doesn't really help anyone except for the person. It doesn't help PVP to improve. It just makes the situation worse. We had guilds for years new players came in and we help them. The mentality of some of these people they just don't want to expand their social circles and that's another problem. You want a good PVP game and enjoyable PVP game but you place the importance of the social aspect of the game over the quality of improving the game by growing and helping other players. So this is a good thing we can see some of the problems that exist by so maybe this will help solve them. That's a new one so this is why it's important to not keep these social circles closed because you are just self destroying your own PVP experience. In all the guilds that I was ever in in every game and all the players that I played with we always tried to include other people and help them. We never had closed circles. It's kind of selfish and unproductive if you ask me.

Okay so how does that help the current situation? You want all the players to be awful so this way the awful players can have a better time at playing. So I should just unbind all my key binds undo everything I did to become better use bad gear and then do war zones. Tell me how that makes any sense at all? So I have to be awfully at PVP to accommodate awful PVP players are you kidding me? This isn't grade school where everyone wins and gets a prize. This is a grown up world. There are winners and there are losers. What does your comment do to help players and to help PVP in general? I played other games many other games PVP where they were very experienced players and I was awful but over time I learned and I got better. What's what's the problem here? I didn't ask the players who were good already to become bad to accommodate me lol

Part of it is that I see a lot of players who don't want to improve and don't want to put in any effort so therefore the intention here is to have people who REALLY want to play better to put in a little extra to find the channel. If they don't want to put in the effort, to even search for it they will never do what's on there that is suggested to do to play better👍 The mentality of majority of the players is they don't want to put the work into become better or the effort to do the research into the classes and practice. Last night I saw some of the worst war zones I've ever seen. The player quality and the gear is just atrocious. It's disgusting. I see people putting in absolutely no effort to improve. I really would just like to have good players on both sides with balanced fights. As I said many times in the past developers will not fix this. It needs to be fixed by the players. This is my attempt to improve this situation. Right now there are some really good players who are quitting the game and some players also that are very good that just aren't playing as much anymore so it's just going to get worse and worse until there's no PVP. I wish there were guides like this when I first started playing. It's a gold mine. It would have accelerated my progression as a player much faster. When you talk about player quality, players aren't just naturally great. Everyone has to do the work the research the thinking practicing, rotations, making key binds, all the stuff that goes along with it. You're not just born a great PVP player. I'm not sure some of these people even understand that. Also, remember when we first started playing, those people have been playing for a while, a lot of these ways of playing better we're discussed in guilds and were discussed among friends. These new players don't have a huge player base that they communicate with to find out how to play better which we had. I had huge PVP guilds where knowledge was shared and people practiced and helped each other. Right now that doesn't really happen. I shared and helped many players. The guide can do this much better than me helping people 1 on 1 on how to play.

Well, it's his YouTube channel. I don't think that I really have the right to put a link to his channel and I haven't spoken to him so if he sees this I'm sure he'll link it or if someone else wants to link it go ahead feel free.

If any new players want to improve their PvP performance, there's and excellent guide someone created for beginners, along with very good gearing, tactics and rotations for any pvper, and for every class. I don't want to post the link here but if you search on YouTube: SWTOR and then Ivanno, it will show up. It is really an excellent, extensive guide for someone who is new to PVP and also for more advanced players. If you're looking for the beginner videos, just search in his videos you will find it it is there or you can just search as I said and then add for beginners it might pop up. I'm not trying to endorse him but I did watch his videos because he's got some really good stuff in there and then I became friends with him through discord. They are very helpful videos. I'm not sure if you're even allowed to post links and here so I'm not posting but if people want to PM me they can feel free to and I believe I can send you the link there and it should be fine. I wouldn't even mention it; except it was done so exceptionally well. 👍

You're reality is not the one I see. Like I said this is a constructive, productive thread to help people who do not want to play against premades. If you do not want to help with this, please do not contribute. You are not helping PVP in any way shape or form. This is a PVP forum to help PVP become better for players. If someone is not willing to contribute to that, I would say that they shouldn't post at all. Everything you have said has no productive value for anyone. I could have just chosen not to make the thread and just keep the secret myself and the game would be fine for me but I'm trying to help other players who don't want to face pre-mades. If you don't want to help, then do something else.

Ya I hear you. The only purpose of this post is to just help players to know the mechanics of how to avoid pre-mades if they don't want to face them, nothing else.

I think you are playing a different game. If this was true, that people just want to play with people that they like/know how come when the players are awful, they never group with them? I'll answer that for you because they don't want people in their group that are not good. Or could it be that people are too fragile to expand their social circle? And risk not being liked. You're also referring to is the soft core Care Bear PVP type of gameplay. Old school hardcore PVP: Number one, you don't play the class that you want you; play the class that is best for the group; that's called being unselfish and an asset to your group. How are you my friend if you're playing a class that makes the group worse? Just doing what you want to do selfishly, I see people doing this in the group that makes the group weak. I leave. If you want to play what you want to play, then solo queue. That's what I do. I won't play a class that is not productive to the group I am in. Two, you play with the best players you can possibly get into the group on the best classes. I've been playing this for 12 years. I never played with people because I "liked playing" with them. I've been in tens of thousands of premades. I have refused people to groups that are toxic or left groups when I thought people were toxic. Like, it's PvP, not a social gathering. Those groups are where people want to play with their friends are just back slapping, ego stroking, needy people, getting their needs met by others who can't be self-sufficient. Being social is and making friends is real life event, or at best social media. It's a fatal mistake to place your happiness in the hands of someone else or another group of people. It's always best to find your happiness from yourself. It's a life lesson. It's called maturity. Understand one thing, I've been playing MMOs for a very very long time I have met multiple people from games. What you see in the game is not who the person is in real life. It's a fantasy world. People in these types of groups pretend to be who they're not to be liked and accepted. It's a fake artificial environment. It's not healthy.

Think this out, this is a vicious cycle you think you have overpowered classes then they underpower the overpowered classes then the other classes seem overpowered and it just is a cycle that goes on and on and on and on. You have to live with the classes that you have and learn to cope with it. Nerf something, other classes seem op Stop trusting these devs to fix your problems. They don't know how to do it correctly and make it worse. There have been 10 K posts on op classes over 12 years. Do you see no more op classes? They mess up the class and make it not playable or they nerf the spec and you can't play it anymore. Mm sniper and merc were op now they both are garbage. Merc u can't kite. Mm has bad DMG. Merc has the lowest DMG. They both are C tier, the worst teir. They used to be top tier. Both have become the lowest tier spec and class. When the Nerfed powertech/ vanguards, assassins, they were unplayable for 5 years. Assassins were much more playable though but never top tier again. Every class has weaknesses. What you have to do, is do the work play the class find out the weakness and then use it to kill the class. I'll give you a few hints powertech/vanguard do not have good CC immunity and they don't handle pressure well with two/three mediocre defensives. So press the buttons and continuously cc them. It's you, not the other class. Sorcerers are non burst, aoe, dot fluff DMG classes all they need is a little pressure and they can do no damage. You should have been around when they were truly a burst class but they over nerfed it. Snipers are best killed by range classes. If you are on a melee class, avoid snipers line of sight them. Don't try to chase snipers around if they're good you will never get them. So ultimately what happens is less players play because people like their classes that they play and their specs and when they can't play them anymore they don't play. It's a lose-lose situation. It's something that you have to adjust to and grow from. The world isn't going to just change its way to suit how you want it. You have to make adjustments and change how you do things in order to be better. The classes most people are complaining about are not even top tier right now top tier is rage juggernaut, I believe annihilation Marauder, and AP power tech and one other one you can look it up for yourself. AP power tech deserves to have the burst because it was unplayable for half of the games lifespan. You need bursty classes because with heals and guards people never die. I guess whoever is concurring with the original poster doesn't understand what it looks like when this game had it to where nothing ever died. It was the most annoying thing ever.

Trust me you don't want them to change or try to fix anything because they don't understand PVP. It's like asking someone that has never engineered a car to just go and make the car from scratch. They have no idea, no clue nothing. You would never want to drive a car that they built. The car we driving right now is an awful car because it was designed in an awful way by people who don't understand how to make cars. They can't fix what they don't know how to fix and never built correctly in the first place. If you work at the store and your the manager and customers come in and they say we want black shirts and all you have are white shirts people keep coming in and saying we want black shirts but all there are white shirts guess what you're not going to lose customers and the store is going to fail. What PvP now is: a failure to make good PVP. 😉 If you don't believe me, go look on YouTube at the original developers who designed war zones playing war zones and in voice talking; it's the most pathetic thing I've ever seen. Ask someone for the title of it I'm not posting it here.

Yes one of the two major issues is that people don't believe you have to kill or do damage to other players to accomplish objectives. The other is they run all over the map and this creates uneven matchups so you have to fight three versus seven because the team is scattered all over the map. 👍 I don't q Dodge because I fear the other team. I q Dodge because I don't want people on my team that do 1K DPS or just run around the map like it's a circus show vs a full premade that will fight. If it's pug versus pug, then it's a better match because you don't have to fight pre-mades with people that are not capable of doing any damage or anything productive.

Yes some of them only queue with their friends or with other players because they can't do any damage without a guard and heals or really are not good. You find just one or two of them in a war zone. They are total garbage. Even when I'm in a pre-made with good players when I start to see the group getting larger and the player quality getting less and classes that should not be in a pre-made because you can solo queue with the classes, I leave. The classes I'm referring to are sorcerer, assassin, operative because they are very hard to heal and make the group a liability when you do face a good pre-made. Sorcerer and assassin have very low armor ratings you will never beat a good pre-made with those classes. And operatives are constantly line of sighting heals and make you have to overextend your heals and neglect other players just like sorc. It makes the group weaker. Also, operative dots even sorcerer burst and dots don't kill good pre-mades that have guards with good players also those classes have no good utilities for group play. If you put that up against a sniper that has massive utility and crowd control, vanguard that can just blow you up in 2 seconds, or even a mercenary with their nets and other tools work in conjunction with the group. Juggernauts and Marauders are good at DPSing being less on the utility side but better than sorcerers, operatives and assassins. TBH I leave groups with these classes because I know what will happen if you fight a good pre-made.

I don't see 100 posts about this. I DO see posts about how premades are killing PvP for developers to do something but if solo players dodge then it would increase the chance of pre-made vs pre-made. All the post I see are to ask the developers to stop the premades. And we all know that's never going to happen so we have to come up with alternative solutions. In general if the experience of the PVP is better more people will queue. I remember when we had pre-mades and there were a lot of pre-mades and players; much more the time we would face the same pre-mades then now. So part of it is that the population is less. But we can never rely on these developers to fix anything if anything they will break it more. The matchmaking system is what it is. The matchmaking system doesn't work when the population is too low. Time and time again the developers have failed us. Their solution to improve PVP was to give rewards and make make it available to q 8 people which just made it much worse. I can think of hundreds of examples of things that they did that just made it worse which resulted in the low population and the problems you see right now. Clearly just from these two examples you can see that they have no idea what they're doing. That's why I insist on stop asking them to do anything and try to change the situation ourselves. Yes part of the reason I don't pre-made is because you don't get matched versus equal caliber players and other pre-mades etc. It's boring. I don't think that is reliably fixable because the population is too low unfortunately. I would love it if we had pre-made verse pre-made and good fights. At almost any given time, there's probably less than 150 players that are in war zones. A lot of times if you search you will see 50 players in war zones in total the matchmaking system is impossible to work. You would need at least a couple of hundred players for it to work.

Yep I've been limiting my play. If people can't be productive, and learn to work together to make PVP better, it will never get better. If I see the PVP is not good, I just log off. I try again later if it's bad, I'll do something else. Another issue, people shouldn't be that NEEDY to where they have to play with their friends to get attention and feel liked. It's not helpful to the game. Look we all know there is a problem. We all know they will never fix it. If you want better games, then change the behavior. Don't be part of the problem because sooner or later they'll be no PVP. It dies here. It dies in every other MMO. The pvp genre in mmos is dying in general. There's no need to contribute to its demise because of your own emotional neediness or whatever your case is. Because in every other MMO, you get the same problem. Just don't be on under the illusion that developers this in this game can fix it because they don't fundamentally understand pvp. They never have. Like I said you better hope they don't attempt to fix it because it will be 10 times worse. Also stop complaining about classes that are overpowered because it's a vicious circle then another class becomes overpowered when the other one becomes underpowered just leave it as it is.

I been doing this for 2 years. It works fine. I know all the players who do pre-mades and all the players that are good PvPers who group. Pretty much 95% of the time I never get a pre-made. It doesn't mean the match will be perfect but you won't get pre-mades. Too bad I can't list names. That's what this post is for so you don't have to fight premades. There's nothing inherently wrong with pre-made groups but the problem is the gap in player skill is too big to accommodate pre-made unless there are other premades online. This only makes PVP worse for everyone. It's not productive. If you're a person who wants to have good PVP matches and you see there's no pre-mades then don't make one just q solo it's not going to kill you lol There's plenty of times there's friends I have online I can make groups I see no other premade I don't make a group because I know that it ruins the game Don't be counterproductive just to inflate your ego with numbers. Numbers mean nothing verse bots. In your specific case if you want to fight other premades watch what they are doing if they are not in warzone, q, if they're in a war zone don't q. If that don't work issue a challenge. If solo players do this, you will be more likely to face the other pre-made. So don't try to knock it down let people do it and maybe it will help the game be better for you. You see how this works you make it more of a productive environment and then you get what you want.

Firstly, they are never going to fix anything in PvP in this game so that's out of the question. Step one: see which players are in the pre-made type o then search either The war zone, The Guild name or the player's name whichever one comes up put them on your friends list Step 2: when you log on see where the players are that play in the premades if you see they are in a war zone and it's been about a minute or two then q. If you see there still on fleet or not in a war zone, do not queue. If you have a pre-made and want to fight another pre-made, just q when the other pre-made is out so you can fight the other pre-made. Again, *Type o and then go into who tab type in the war zone you see them in, player's name, or Guild put them on friends list. Conversely if you have friends that you like to play with add them to your friends list group with them so you're not alone. Please stop asking them to fix war zones they're never going to fix war zones never ever ever. If they do fix them, they're just going to make them worse there's no point in asking them because they don't know anything about PVP.