PvP improvements (Broadsword survey)

[JackieKo]

1 hour ago, Lord_Janosch said:

Hi @JackieKo, one short question regarding the survey: is it only for english speaking people (SS, SF, DM) or are german/french speaking people (TH, TL) also included? Haven't gotten a survey yet (yes I know, not all players will receive one). Thanks for your answer.

Tulak Hord player here

Hi there, 

The survey went out to active players regardless of the server they play on. I do want to call out that the survey itself is only in EN. Know that we are looking to have future correspondence like this localized. 

Thanks!

[xxSHOONYxx]

Specified amount of time and still playing or also those that do not play anymore? @JackieKo
The reasons why people quit and what would make them come back is as equally important as those that still play if the aim of the survey is to really try to improve the game, especially since a very big bulk of the pve/pvp/gsf playerbase has left/been leaving for ages and the current player base is not really representative to those that came behind/left.

[Sarova]

On 11/8/2023 at 7:16 PM, Samcuu said:

I'd disagree. Just needs to be reverted back to 4 I'd like to be able to make a full trinity comp. 

 

I like the idea but it can't be implemented this way at least for warzones because you have ppl guarding nodes who might not do anything all match, or very little besides keeping their eye on a captured node. This would work great for Arenas but would also hurt ppl who DC for example and then log back into a 1 hour deserter debuff. The afk trolls for sure need to be dealt with somehow tho. 

A patch or so ago, guarding was given an upgrade so those who guard are getting more for that role.  I'm talking about those players who literally hide themselves in some inaccessible place that allows to them to sit there and get a match completion and contribute nothing.  

In my sci-fi imagination, I'm wondering if there's a way to do something like wow does and debuff someone in the game until they participate?  The people hiding in the game know that if they die they'll end up being kicked out of the match because they basically hide where they can't be attacked and go afk until the match is over.  Debuffing them during the match so they get no completion credit/no medals/no valor and an additional debuff once the match is over preventing them from entering any match for an hour.  Is my imagination too advanced for the reality of this to happen?  Have I been reading/watching too much sci-fi?

How about adding a "practice" PvP allowing players to earn valor against npcs but they can't enter PvP proper until they hit a certain valor achievement or valor rank?  That would clear out a lot of the loiterers because they won't make that effort to access PvP.

[Illedros]

On 11/9/2023 at 1:13 AM, TrixxieTriss said:

Would love to see a copy of the questions. 

I can't remember all of them but here's a few I do remember:

(my exact wording could be wrong)

Does SWTOR feel like a real game/experience to you?

Name another computer game you're currently playing that you consider is what a gaming experience should be?

What sort of games do you usually play?

Do you more often play solo or in groups?

How important is being in a guild to you?

Do you feel like you're a part of the Star Wars universe when you play?

Do you have a connection with the characters you create?

Describe a time you have a great experience in the SWTOR story missions

Describe a time you had a not so great experience in the SWTOR story missions

Was there a time you were confused about where to go next regarding story progression?

How often do you purchase items (from cartel market)?

What is more likely to make you purchase items?

What is less likely to make you purchase items

Put the following items in order from what you're most to least likely to purchase - the items were all just cartel market cosmetic items, weapons, pets, mounts, hairstyles etc

 

All of the other questions were to do with the feel of the SWTOR experience and the story missions and purchasing from the cartel market.

There were no questions specifically asking about PVP, I'm confident in recalling this because I was specifically on the look out for any PVP related questions but they never appeared.

Only the very last question on the last page which was 'Tell us about your experiences playing SWTOR' was open ended enough for me to mention PVP. So I gave my 2 cents worth but I'm definitely not holding my breath.

TL/DR - There were no questions asking about PVP. PVP was never mentioned. All questions were related to the overall STWOR experience, the story missions and purchasing choices in the cartel market.

 

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, Illedros said:

How often do you purchase items (from cartel market)?

What is more likely to make you purchase items?

What is less likely to make you purchase items

Put the following items in order from what you're most to least likely to purchase - the items were all just cartel market cosmetic items, weapons, pets, mounts, hairstyles etc

 

Anyone else think the survey was so they could mostly get feedback about their CM above all else? 

I personally haven’t seen the survey, so I can on speculate. But if this is an example of the questions, it seems the direct CM questions take up a lot of it. Even the indirect questions on characters & does it feel like SW would indirectly feed into their CM category. 

It’s such a shame they didn’t ask any questions directly about PvP. This would have been a great way to collect info on what players liked or disliked about it. 

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, Illedros said:

Only the very last question on the last page which was 'Tell us about your experiences playing SWTOR' was open ended enough for me to mention PVP. So I gave my 2 cents worth but I'm definitely not holding my breath.

Also, thanks for doing that 👍

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, Sarova said:

In my sci-fi imagination, I'm wondering if there's a way to do something like wow does and debuff someone in the game until they participate?  The people hiding in the game know that if they die they'll end up being kicked out of the match because they basically hide where they can't be attacked and go afk until the match is over.  Debuffing them during the match so they get no completion credit/no medals/no valor and an additional debuff once the match is over preventing them from entering any match for an hour.  Is my imagination too advanced for the reality of this to happen?  Have I been reading/watching too much sci-fi?

I like this idea. How does WoW incorporate it into PvP? Ie, what are the parameters that cause the system to automatically debuff someone in this manner?

[MasterRikku]

For the ones that didn't received the survey, Bolded are the question. 

Which of the following best describes how well the first 5 hours of playing SW:TOR prepared you for the rest of the game? (Forgot to copy the choices for the question)

When you first encountered each of the following, how easy were they to understand?
Difficult, Somewhat difficult, Neither, Somewhat easy, Easy (Bubbles choices) for the following choices
 Strongholds, Operations, join a guild, flashpoints, space missions, warzones/arenas, Galactic star fighter, use the group finder

How much do you agree with each of the following statements about playing SW:TOR?
SW:TOR’s gameplay feels rewarding., SW:TOR looks and feels like a modern video game.   ,I feel a connection to the overall Star Wars universe while playing SW:TOR., I primarily play SW:TOR for the single-player story., My in-game choices and actions are impactful on the overall story of the game., My character is important to me.  ,I feel a personal connection to my companions. (agree, somewhat agree, neither, somewhat disagree, disagree {Bubble choices)

What was your favorite story moment when playing SW:TOR? Fill in box

What was your least favorite story moment when playing SW:TOR? Fill in box

When, if ever, were you particularly confused as to what you needed to do next when playing SW:TOR? Fill in box

Which choices within the game do you think should matter more to the story?

When playing SW:TOR, do you generally play solo or with others?

In general, how do you primarily play video games?

How important is your Guild to your enjoyment while playing SW:TOR?

Would you be willing to subscribe to SW:TOR if the subscription provided additional benefits than those already provided? Fill in box

What type of content would convince you to subscribe to SW:TOR? Fill in box

Please indicate how likely you are to purchase each of the following.
Hairstyles, Companions, Armor, Pets, Weapons, Mounts, Species unlocks, XP Boosts, Inventory modules, Weapon Tunings, Level Boosts

Please rank each of the following in terms of the value that the content provides to you per dollar spent? The choses were the above purchases question

What makes you more or less likely to purchase some items compared to others? Fill in box

In the past, when you have taken a break from playing SW:TOR which of the following best describes why you stopped playing?

My Guild was no longer active

I wasn’t progressing in the game in the way that I wanted

There was a lack of in-game content that I enjoyed

I did not have the time to play the game the way that I wanted

Other(Fill in blank)
 

[Sarova]

I got the survey!  I went a bit nuts.

Mine seemed to be tailored to my game-play style - I got my thoughts in about PvP, however, most of my responses related to storyplay which is more important to me than PvP.

[Ardarell_Solo]

On 11/8/2023 at 5:21 PM, hemeen said:

The people who hated and quit SWTOR pvp is where you need to dig very deep. People leave beacuse theyre unsatisfied, not because they somehow categorically hate the game, they wouldnt have installed it then in the first place. They shouldve done this years ago instead of rolling with a very strange positivity propaganda, nice to see that they atleast put in some effort with a survey now.

That's one of a variety of possible sales strategies. Imo DNA of SWTOR doesn't work with hardcore PvP audience in general, so I'd tailor PvP around players who dig SWTOR DNA in the first place, because that's the players you got now, and design PvP so it enhances their experience. The amount of work you'd need to put in to satisfy or hardcore PvPers (or NIM raiders as well for that matter) just doesn't pay off, because the target group is so much smaller than the amount of people already playing what SWTOR offers these days. A solid business plan will focus on securing their sticking to the product.

[septru]

 

On 11/11/2023 at 8:51 AM, Ardarell_Solo said:

The amount of work you'd need to put in to satisfy or hardcore PvPers (or NIM raiders as well for that matter) just doesn't pay off because the target group is so much smaller than the amount of people already playing what SWTOR offers these days.

This is a complete untrue and self-fulfilling argument, which is understandable, since it's based off the same illogical reasoning that the devs used when they killed PvP in 7.2. 

 

You do not need to put much resources into PvP to satisfy PvPers. This is literally the fundamental difference between endgame PvP and endgame PvE. PvE will be the same scripted fight over and over again, but PvP is new content every single time you enter a warzone. The "content" in PvE is to beat the boss, which is finished once you beat it. New content in PvE is an entirely new raid. The "content" in PvP is to beat each other, which is an endless mountain to climb as players continuously fight to be better than the other. All you have to do is reward players for climbing this mountain: reward them for improving. At the moment, the PvP Seasons reward system does not do this. Which is why so many PvPers have left the game, because there is no mountain to climb. 

 

My general point is that you (and BioSword) frame SWTOR PvP as an "either/or." Either we tailor this game to hardcore PvPers or we tailor this game to casuals, but you can't do both. This is entirely wrong. You can do both with limited resources, and in fact, must do both if you want the game to emerge from maintenance mode.

Edited November 13, 2023 by septru

[RACATW]

2 hours ago, Ardarell_Solo said:

That's one of a variety of possible sales strategies. Imo DNA of SWTOR doesn't work with hardcore PvP audience in general, so I'd tailor PvP around players who dig SWTOR DNA in the first place, because that's the players you got now, and design PvP so it enhances their experience. The amount of work you'd need to put in to satisfy or hardcore PvPers (or NIM raiders as well for that matter) just doesn't pay off, because the target group is so much smaller than the amount of people already playing what SWTOR offers these days. A solid business plan will focus on securing their sticking to the product.

You have to ask yourself, when was the last time you saw Bioware post in the PvP section? Aside from Jackie (thanks!), who dealt with a few major issues here recently, we haven't seen anyone in about 8 months.

How is a total lack of tweaks or updates to PvP whatsoever, and a lack of any interaction at all with PvPers beneficial or productive to the game?

 

This isnt really a personal complaint as I've seen bioware silently react to some things over the years. But what about the casual PvPers or public browsing dev updates? How do they know the end game modes are receiving changes and support?

People like knowing a product is receiving support and updates, even if the changes are very small and incremental it matters to them.

 

[Aregor]

I think the real question is: How can we make more money with the cartel market. All others shall just hide that main intention.

Sorry but that's my interpreation of that survey.

[Ardarell_Solo]

5 hours ago, RACATW said:

How is a total lack of tweaks or updates to PvP whatsoever, and a lack of any interaction at all with PvPers beneficial or productive to the game?

 

Because it shifts development resources to the areas of the game that are most played. Anything done there will have a much greater effect on how satisfied the majority of players are with the game on average.

[Ardarell_Solo]

7 hours ago, septru said:

 

You do not need to put much resources into PvP to satisfy PvPers. This is literally the fundamental difference between endgame PvP and endgame PvE. PvE will be the same scripted fight over and over again, but PvP is new content every single time you enter a warzone. The "content" in PvE is to beat the boss, which is finished once you beat it. New content in PvE is an entirely new raid. The "content" in PvP is to beat each other, which is an endless mountain to climb as players continuously fight to be better than the other. All you have to do is reward players for climbing this mountain: reward them for improving. At the moment, the PvP Seasons reward system does not do this. Which is why so many PvPers have left the game, because there is no mountain to climb. 

 

My general point is that you (and BioSword) frame SWTOR PvP as an "either/or." Either we tailor this game to PvPers or we tailor this game to casuals, but you can't do both. This is entirely wrong. You can do both.

The amount of dev resources that go into scripting boss fights will be about the same as balancing (!!) PvP. It's an area that players and devs (of new games with that focus) alike tend to underestimate the most. You gave the reason yourself: Fighting each other is the content. But if your subjective (!) impression is, that you don't stand a fair chance, reactions tend to be much more salty than when something doesn't work quite right in PvE. That's also why it's not exactly a rewarding area to work in as a dev.

 

7 hours ago, septru said:

My general point is that you (and BioSword) frame SWTOR PvP as an "either/or." Either we tailor this game to PvPers or we tailor this game to casuals, but you can't do both. This is entirely wrong. You can do both.

The question though is if it's a reasonable allocation of resources. I'm pretty sure the way PvP has been handled in SWTOR in the last 10 years didn't fall from the sky 🙂

Edited November 11, 2023 by Ardarell_Solo

[merovejec]

On 11/8/2023 at 6:39 AM, TrixxieTriss said:

No survey sent to me yet 😞

@JackieKo is this survey for everyone or have you only sent to select players? 

Everyone in the guild got it already, Check spam folder.

[ZUHFB]

26 minutes ago, Ardarell_Solo said:

The amount of dev resources that go into scripting boss fights will be about the same as balancing (!!) PvP. It's an area that players and devs (of new games with that focus) alike tend to underestimate the most. You gave the reason yourself: Fighting each other is the content. But if your subjective (!) impression is, that you don't stand a fair chance, reactions tend to be much more salty than when something doesn't work quite right in PvE. That's also why it's not exactly a rewarding area to work in as a dev.

I promise, if they decided to keep ranked and just give out flairs based on rating and top3 based on counting to 96 once a year (if we're lucky) there would be ranked popping every evening. It's literally almost no effort, heck, just get an official influencer to do the counting, copy paste that list give out rewards bam. How long does this take? 15 Minutes at most? For how many subs? 50 or more? 

[septru]

1 hour ago, Ardarell_Solo said:

The amount of dev resources that go into scripting boss fights will be about the same as balancing (!!) PvP.

 

Please read my post. I never said anything about PvP balance. I'm not sure why you are bringing it up, given that the discussion is about "content."

[RACATW]

3 hours ago, Ardarell_Solo said:

Because it shifts development resources to the areas of the game that are most played. Anything done there will have a much greater effect on how satisfied the majority of players are with the game on average.

1.2 million posts have been made by subscribers in the PvP forums. In the general forums only 3.6 million posts gave been made (where PvP players also post sometimes). This trend is also visible in the French forums (56k posts for PvP (JcJ) and 135k for General), and German.

Plus if you randomly inspect the achievements of people on fleet, (especially the max level characters), you'll see people almost always try PvP.

What I'd suggest for Broadsword is trying to retain and encourage that PvP participation and the subscriber activity.

Edited November 12, 2023 by RACATW

[TrixxieTriss]

4 hours ago, merovejec said:

Everyone in the guild got it already, Check spam folder.

Have checked. Still no survey. Maybe the batches were done by region & they didn’t send any to APAC? 

Edited November 12, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[DWho]

2 hours ago, RACATW said:

Plus if you randomly inspect the achievements of people on fleet, (especially the max level characters), you'll see people almost always try PvP.

The problem with this assessment is that at one time PVP was (and an argument could be made for "still is") the best way to "win" conquest so lots of people have tons of PVP achievements from back when finishing in the top 10 was required. It's not really a good indicator of how much PVP they play now (or even what their interest level was then). One could look at the PVE/Story achievements in the same way and you would end up determining that everyone plays PVE/story and so the focus should be there.

PVP does need support but it is not now and never was the driving force in the game. In addition, what drives the complaints of current PVPers is very different from why people don't currently PVP (just reading the PVP forum shows you that). What turns me off most is the people playing PVP right now, not the arenas/warzones themselves, pre-made sizes, or even class balance. The PVP community/environment is not very friendly at all (though there are some exceptions). Like most group content it is a rush to the end and then off to the next pop (group PVE suffers from many of the same problems).

How Broadsword selected the people to receive surveys was probably random and based on the questions probably aimed at newer players. They know pretty well what all the "old timers" think based on forum posts. They may have even restricted the surveys to people who haven't posted on the forums to get an idea what the "other half" thinks.

[RACATW]

9 minutes ago, DWho said:

The problem with this assessment is that at one time PVP was (and an argument could be made for "still is") the best way to "win" conquest so lots of people have tons of PVP achievements from back when finishing in the top 10 was required. It's not really a good indicator of how much PVP they play now (or even what their interest level was then). One could look at the PVE/Story achievements in the same way and you would end up determining that everyone plays PVE/story and so the focus should be there.

PVP does need support but it is not now and never was the driving force in the game. In addition, what drives the complaints of current PVPers is very different from why people don't currently PVP (just reading the PVP forum shows you that). What turns me off most is the people playing PVP right now, not the arenas/warzones themselves, pre-made sizes, or even class balance. The PVP community/environment is not very friendly at all (though there are some exceptions). Like most group content it is a rush to the end and then off to the next pop (group PVE suffers from many of the same problems).

How Broadsword selected the people to receive surveys was probably random and based on the questions probably aimed at newer players. They know pretty well what all the "old timers" think based on forum posts. They may have even restricted the surveys to people who haven't posted on the forums to get an idea what the "other half" thinks.

Of course PvP needs support, that's my main point here. (the other guy was saying PvP needs absolutely no support, lol)

I'd say there's multiple driving forces behind the game and that PvP is clearly one of the most important to subscribers when we look at the total amount of posts in the PvP forum across all languages compared to the "general" section (where PvPers also post). Conquest doesn't even have a section on the forum, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up since we can't really objectively measure interest in it via number of subscriber posts (whereas PvP has at least 1.2 million posts about it). I'm sure some conquest min-maxers exist and care about it a lot though. Heck, even my small PvP guild gets on the conquest leaderboard once in a while by mistake.  

As for the rest of what you're saying, what drove me into PvP originally, is the fact that the PvE community was so unfriendly. I remember seeing people being yelled at during an operation in PvE for not knowing the mechanics. The operation ended in disaster with people raging in chat (these were all random people), and then quitting en masse.

In comparison to PvE, generally speaking, PvP noobs don't get roasted for not knowing how to play in ops chat when they play regular warzones. I've lost track of the number of times I've seen completely helpless new players, and usually the only time I ever saw someone "called out" in chat was either in ranked warzones or arenas, and usually because they lacked the gear for it.  Not necessarily because they didn't know how to play or who to focus. Whereas if you didn't know what to do in an op people would definitely get after you (in addition to not having gear). So I don't think it's fully accurate to paint PvP in the worst possible light all the time. I think it's more "expected toxicity" in PvE so people don't really talk about that as often. Plus arena's have a very short timer in between matches for strategizing / talking so you need to get your point across fast.

[DWho]

5 minutes ago, RACATW said:

Conquest doesn't even have a section on the forum, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up since we can't really objectively measure interest in it via number of subscriber posts (whereas PvP has at least 1.2 million posts about it). I'm sure some conquest min-maxers exist and care about it a lot though.

I brought conquest in because you brought in looking at achievements as a way to gauge interest in PVP. Lots of those achievements were very likely obtained by people who's only interest in PVP was the conquest points they got making achievements generally a poor measure of PVP interest. If you made some other aspect of the game equivalent to PVP for conquest they would go there instead (just look at what is going on now with GSF after they massively boosted the rewards for that mode).

Having the easiest/quickest path to rewards drives a lot of "participation" in PVP. The people are there for the rewards not the gameplay.

As far as posts go, that is one of the worst ways to measure anything. Forum posts are overwhelmingly negative and a whole lot of the PVP posts are about "nerf his class and buff mine". PVPers are passionate about PVP and the number of posts is indicative of that passion but not general interest in PVP by the game community as a whole.

How would you rank: Player-Player interaction, premades, class balance, pop times, and the arenas themselves?

I'd rank them in order of importance as

1) Player-Player interaction (warzones need to be more mission like encouraging players to work together)

2) Ease of assembling premades (playing in a group with your friends is a lot more fun that being split up)

3) Number/variety of warzones

4) Pop Times

5) Class balance

 

 

[Illedros]

2 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Have checked. Still no survey. Maybe the batches were done by region & they didn’t send any to APAC? 

I got one and I live just north of Sydney

[Lord_Malganus]

To me the questions showed no interest in anything related to long time players.

The focus was on selective input from Newer Players on PVE and CM related stuff.