PvP improvements (Broadsword survey)

[RACATW]

11 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

awesome, let me just manually type out that url so i can confirm...

There is a teeny tiny difference between a braggart yelling at people because he and everyone can see all the stats in game and that same person telling everyone to visit a url so they can bask in his glory as trash talks you.

Warzones are not about DPS, they are objective based games. There really is no need to show everyone's stats as it only supports toxic behavior in game.

That's wrong though. They are about DPS / HPS / Tanking too. You need that or you lose the fights at mid or at the node.

Back when people were competent at both objectives and playing their class we'd have some really intense fights that went back and forth.

 

edit:
Although to be clear, some DPS / HPS etc is completely useless (e.g. leth ops throwing green powder or playing dart tag with everyone)

Edited November 18, 2023 by RACATW

[TrixxieTriss]

8 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

awesome, let me just manually type out that url so i can confirm...

There is a teeny tiny difference between a braggart yelling at people because he and everyone can see all the stats in game and that same person telling everyone to visit a url so they can bask in his glory as trash talks you.

Warzones are not about DPS, they are objective based games. There really is no need to show everyone's stats as it only supports toxic behavior in game.

They already removed deaths from the board. People like to be able to see how they are going compared to other players. They can do that by seeing their own stats & others. What your suggesting is nanny state tactics that would annoy more people than it would help. 

[Darkestmonty]

19 minutes ago, RACATW said:

That's wrong though. They are about DPS / HPS / Tanking too. You need that or you lose the fights at mid or at the node.

Back when people were competent at both objectives and playing their class we'd have some really intense fights that went back and forth.

 

edit:
Although to be clear, some DPS / HPS etc is completely useless (e.g. leth ops throwing green powder or playing dart tag with everyone)

DPSers are the primary offender here. Certain players will proudly ignore all objectives in a warzone to pump their DPS numbers so they can show off at the end of a match and call everyone else trash.

Showing only objective points in objective based games like Warzone would curb that behavior.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[SoyElSenado]

13 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

DPSers are the primary offender here. Certain players will proudly ignore all objectives in a warzone to increase their DPS numbers to show off at the end of a match.

Won't be as easy to do that if other players stats are not displayed and they have to drop a URL to starparse to brag and call others trash.

I touched on this in my original suggestion post - 

 

Quote

This is particularly critical for warzones because having no reward/rating system has led to the current phenomenon where most skilled/veteran PvPers do not even play the warzone objective. Winning and losing does not matter, so instead they just focus on trying to rack up as many kills they can, or worse, messing with as many people as possible. Why bother supporting their teams and trying to win when it counts for nothing, and when killing the enemy player is more fun? Veteran PvPers either don’t need the quest rewards or they PvP so much in a week that it is irrelevant whether they lose or win because they finish the quests regardless. 

I think you're right that this a problem, I just don't think removing the dps logging at the end of matches really would put a dent in it. I really don't think the vast majority of people who ignore the objectives do so because they want to stack the meters; it's because TDM is more fun/competitive and there's no consequence to losing games so no point to bother with the objective. Having the leaderboard of damage and healing is also important for a game like SWTOR where you can't have dps meter addons. 

Edited November 18, 2023 by SoyElSenado

[Darkestmonty]

13 minutes ago, SoyElSenado said:

I touched on this in my original suggestion post - 

 

 

I think you're right that this a problem, I just don't think removing the dps logging at the end of matches really matters. That kind of gameplay is common because people just TDM instead since it doesn't matter whether they win or lose the match. Having the leaderboard of damage and healing is important especially in SWTOR where you can't have dps meter addons.

I'm all for allowing players to see their own stats in all PvP, but only their stats.

In Warzones, which are objective based games, DPS numbers, kills, etc are pointless but are the primary stat people use to brag and harass other players about.

I agree with you, SWTOR PvP will always be toxic, but promoting the wrong stats only worsens that toxicity.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[TrixxieTriss]

18 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

I'm all for allowing players to see their own stats in all PvP, but only their stats.

In Warzones, which are objective based games, DPS numbers, kills, etc are pointless but are the primary stat people use to brag and harass other players about.

I agree with you, SWTOR PvP will always be toxic, but promoting the wrong stats only worsens that toxicity.

Why does bragging worry you? I can understand the harassing part, but they’ve given you tools to deal with that if it happens. Just put them on legacy ignore. 

Being able to compare yourself to other players stats is a good way to know if youre improving or need to get better. If you can’t see what others are doing, how will you know 🤷🏻‍♀️

Edited November 18, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Darkestmonty]

55 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Why does bragging worry you? I can understand the harassing part, but they’ve given you tools to deal with that if it happens. Just put them on legacy ignore.

bragging isn't what bothers me. It's the people who intentionally ignore objectives in Warzones to bolster their damage scores so they can be toxic to others. Save that for Arena where the only job of a DPS is to kill the enemy team.

Warzones are an objective based game where some of the most effective players can have the lowest DPS scores but high objective scores.

55 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Being able to compare yourself to other players stats is a good way to know if youre improving or need to get better. If you can’t see what others are doing, how will you know 🤷🏻‍♀️

Maybe by winning the Warzone and knowing how objectives work?

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[SoyElSenado]

51 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

Yes I get it, I just assumed you were talking in good faith. But since you insist, I'll spell it out for you as if you were 5 years old, just so you could stop pretending you don't understand. Teams of 4 people IN WARZONES. Better? Same thing would happen in arenas with teams of 2, making them even more dead than they are now.

Since you were clearly coming from a place of bad faith, I just won't bother to read the rest of your argument and just ignore you. Have a nice night.

You never addressed multiple posts where limiting the premade size was brought up as a way of addressing your concern. I don't think it's a stretch to think you were missing the point/not reading. I mean, you literally bolded the term "4 players" and made it the maximum font size in your post multiple times as a way of making your point. But whatever, I guess I'm bad faith so have a good night as well.

20 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

It's the people who intentionally ignore objectives in Warzones to bolster their damage scores so they can be toxic to others. Save that for Arena where the only job of a DPS is to kill the enemy team.

As I said above, I really don't think this is a significant number of players. People who ignore objectives in WZs do so because there's no point to doing the objective since losing has no consequence and winning has no benefit. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by SoyElSenado

[Darkestmonty]

2 minutes ago, SoyElSenado said:

You never addressed multiple posts where limiting the premade size was brought up as a way of addressing your concern. I don't think it's a stretch to think you were missing the point/not reading. I mean, you literally bolded the term "4 players" and made it the maximum font size in your post multiple times as a way of making your point. But whatever, I guess I'm bad faith so have a good night as well.

As I said above, I really don't think this is a significant number of players. People who ignore objectives in WZs do so because there's no point to doing the objective since losing has no consequence and winning has no benefit. 

You haven't run into the players I have then. The ones who call others trash while boasting about their DPS scores even though they completely ignored objectives and cost us multiple lost rounds.

[krackcommando]

2 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

They already removed deaths from the board. People like to be able to see how they are going compared to other players. They can do that by seeing their own stats & others. What your suggesting is nanny state tactics that would annoy more people than it would help. 

they did? I can still see when I hover over dmg taken...last time I bothered to.

[Lord_Malganus]

37 minutes ago, SoyElSenado said:

People who ignore objectives in WZs do so because there's no point to doing the objective since losing has no consequence and winning has no benefit. 

Best explaination ever!

[RACATW]

1 hour ago, Darkestmonty said:

bragging isn't what bothers me. It's the people who intentionally ignore objectives in Warzones to bolster their damage scores so they can be toxic to others. Save that for Arena where the only job of a DPS is to kill the enemy team.

Warzones are an objective based game where some of the most effective players can have the lowest DPS scores but high objective scores.

Maybe by winning the Warzone and knowing how objectives work?

 

Let me put it this way. If you can't take the huttball without dying, you lose.

You need to win the fight at mid to win the game.

[Bigfallenstar]

56 minutes ago, Lord_Malganus said:

Best explaination ever!

Worst explanation ever! So just because you aren't getting anything, you're not even going to try or just farm kills? Might as well have not que up if you're not even going to do the objective to begin with.

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, krackcommando said:

they did? I can still see when I hover over dmg taken...last time I bothered to.

You maybe right. 

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

bragging isn't what bothers me. It's the people who intentionally ignore objectives in Warzones to bolster their damage scores so they can be toxic to others. Save that for Arena where the only job of a DPS is to kill the enemy team.

But that has nothing to do with stats at the end. Because even if you made it so you could only see your own stats, people would still be death matching because that’s what they want to do.

The problem isn’t the stats on the board. It’s not giving people more incentives to try winning over death matching. Until BS find a way to do that, death matching will continue.  

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

You haven't run into the players I have then. The ones who call others trash while boasting about their DPS scores even though they completely ignored objectives and cost us multiple lost rounds.

Sure we have. That’s what legacy ignore is for. If you use it enough, you’ll never hear from them again 😉

[TrixxieTriss]

1 hour ago, Bigfallenstar said:

Worst explanation ever! So just because you aren't getting anything, you're not even going to try or just farm kills? Might as well have not que up if you're not even going to do the objective to begin with.

They did not  say that’s what they do. And yes, that explanation is 100% correct. And is exactly why some, not all people ignore the objectives.

I for one play the objectives & death match at the same time. They aren’t exclusive & two things can be true at the same time.

People who only death match at the expense of trying to win are bad pvpers. It doesn’t matter how much damage or kills you can do if you lose.

But only doing the objectives at the expense of doing proper damage will also lose you the match. That’s why good pvpers can do both at the same time. 

It not an either or proposition. If you play WZ PvP, you should learn to be good at both. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Stradlin]

6 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

awesome, let me just manually type out that url so i can confirm...

There is a teeny tiny difference between a braggart yelling at people because he and everyone can see all the stats in game and that same person telling everyone to visit a url so they can bask in his glory as trash talks you.

Warzones are not about DPS, they are objective based games. There really is no need to show everyone's stats as it only supports toxic behavior in game.

 

Once player gets cushioned with pillows from every possible side, it becomes impossible to feel any meaningful feedback. That makes life difficult. It is so stupid to look at my own stats in some complete vacuum. If I don't see stats of others,how am I supposed to put any value to my own stats? In complete vacuum, they're literally just  random numbers. 

With notable/occasional  exception of Hutball, stats aren't meaningless, you just have  to know how to read them and what to look for. If I spend game stealthing around some quiet Alderaanian turret, my stats will suck. As long as w/e I'm doing instead of killing stuff is valuable, who cares? On the other hand, if I'm part of some huge DPS race as teams do a prolonged fight for the  middle turret, then I def want to see how I performed when compared to some reflection of mine busy doing the same thing on enemy team. 

In competitions, people usually end up getting sorted in some sort of an  order at goal line. That's pretty much the point. After hockey match, offensive power of your team gets displayed in thousand different ways.. Goalies know they're essential despite never showing up on such lists.

Losing a WZ provokes toxic behaviour too. People are upset they lost and flame either team mates or the opposing team. Opposing team might brag to those they defeated. So maybe winning and losing should be cushioned away too, to protect players.

[Lord_Malganus]

6 hours ago, Bigfallenstar said:

Worst explanation ever! So just because you aren't getting anything, you're not even going to try or just farm kills? Might as well have not que up if you're not even going to do the objective to begin with.

I never said anything about farming kills. I replied to his statement about one of the many flaws with this games PvP game design and agreed with his statement.

[RACATW]

12 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

You maybe right. 

You're thinking of how they removed killing blows in WZs.

[krackcommando]

14 hours ago, Bigfallenstar said:

Worst explanation ever! So just because you aren't getting anything, you're not even going to try or just farm kills? Might as well have not que up if you're not even going to do the objective to begin with.

🤨

I don't think you understand the conversation that you jumped into.

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, RACATW said:

You're thinking of how they removed killing blows in WZs.

Correct 👍

[Bigfallenstar]

4 hours ago, krackcommando said:

🤨

I don't think you understand the conversation that you jumped into.

Someone not getting or liking the reward they got so they screw over other people because they don't get what they want. What's not to understand about that?

[krackcommando]

32 minutes ago, Bigfallenstar said:

Someone not getting or liking the reward they got so they screw over other people because they don't get what they want. What's not to understand about that?

scroll up. it's been explained to you by two other ppl at this point.

[septru]

On 11/18/2023 at 4:42 PM, SoyElSenado said:

But whatever, I guess I'm bad faith so have a good night as well.

You just have to ignore trolls. Some people just come to the forums to make themselves look like clowns. It's not even worth responding to.

 

On 11/18/2023 at 4:42 PM, SoyElSenado said:

People who ignore objectives in WZs do so because there's no point to doing the objective since losing has no consequence and winning has no benefit. 

100% this ^. Which speaks to the larger issue. Without proper incentives, real players lose interest, and the only ones left are the death matchers and AFKers.