The gearing progression design is absurd, and 95% of game content is now obsolete

[ZUHFB]

I find it funny that People would use CZ as a baseline because the only time I ever wipe there is when I try to watch a Chinese or Korean drama at the same time, because I forgot the fight in the subtitles.

 

Truthfully, I don't wipe often. I do get tired. Having the BiS gear in 6.0 helped that immensely.

 

NO IT DID NOT. Presence and crit not scaling did. Gear has nothing to do with it, nevermind your gear has MORE stats than it had in 6.0.

 

Your gear is in fact BETTER than it was in 6.0! God damn it, how often do I have to say it to make you understand.

[ZUHFB]

So you need gear because you're bad? How about getting better? Learning proper rotation, adjusting the numbers, learning how the bosses move? It's HARD mode, isn't it?

 

BTW you do realise the 340 won't make you better players? if you cannot do HMs with 330, you won't be able to do them in 340 either, as 330 is already being overgeared for majority of the hard modes. So feel free to get the gear and cry about nerfs because it won't help you.

 

Yes this exactly, everybody cleared it in 330!

[ZUHFB]

Wut? Oh, I need HM and bonus stuff

 

You should ask the guild clean, you don't even have to transfer like you did for the DI sale.

This is their copy paste sale list from the sales discord:

 

R4 Anomaly (Veteran/Hard Mode)

Watchdog + 2x 340 Item Rating Tokens (Boss 2 Token) – 30,000,000,000

Watchdog + Mark of Mastery Achievment („Perfect Polarity“) + 2x 340 Item Rating Tokens (Boss 2 Token) – 45,000,000,000

Lord Kanoth + 2x 340 Item Rating Tokens (Boss 3 Token) + Mount: “Wings of Nihrot“ (if it drops) – 56,000,000,000

Lord Kanoth + 2x 340 Item Rating Tokens (Boss 3 Token) + Mark of Mastery Achievment: „No Rough Edges“ + Mount: “Wings of Nihrot“ (if it drops) – 70,000,000,000

MOUNT DROP CHANCE IS 15% ‼️ IT MIGHT DROP ON YOUR FIRST RUN, OR NOT EVEN AFTER 10 KILLS, NO DROP WARRANTY

[Chryptyk]

BTW you do realise the 340 won't make you better players? if you cannot do HMs with 330, you won't be able to do them in 340 either, as 330 is already being overgeared for majority of the hard modes. So feel free to get the gear and cry about nerfs because it won't help you.

 

That's not true exactly. For a given person, better gear does translate into higher dps. Apply that to a group as a whole and it allows you to push phases faster, which can lead to clears on things you couldn't do in 330 gear. So yeah, having 340 gear does help.

[Chryptyk]

 

Giga inflation made paying and being paid a pain already, the guy who organized the sale had to: trade the buyer SIX times, then he had to trade the helpers SIX times. 12 Trades take a while, you have to enter your credits, or take them out, every time you have to open the legacy cargo! Now with things like Kanoth wings selling for 70b you really just start running into logistical issues you have worry about it too, because you can't really sell it twice. For those sales buyers ALWAYS have to prepay or no deal, then buyers can be... respectfully, very annoying with constant question and last minute "oh I can't come right now". Obviously they bought the credits, obviously some of the sellers are selling their credits - it's not a secret. I've been selling for years, but missed out on the big stonks in the last few weeks of 6.X so I am only sitting on 120b spread on three servers while many people have more than 200b in guild banks or BB dyes.

 

Are sale runs the best way to get money? Yes, most definitely. I am not defending the system, I am not saying that the buyers could've made that money without buying it, I am not denying many sellers resell their credits. I am saying I have never done neither. I am also saying sales are DEAD, for now.

 

So what you are saying is that the Run Sellers are the reason inflation is so high because they sell their credits to the credit sellers. So in effect, buying sales runs is the root cause of inflation. And to fight inflation, the solution is to figure out a way to stop sales runs. Intriguing.....

 

So obvious solution to me would be to flag and trace all large credit transfers, since those would be the ones where someone is buying credits or paying for a run, and ban the accounts involved. I mean a real ban, not a 7 day ban.

[akdonkey]

Why do you need 340 gear right now? They will eventually raise the tiers again like they did with 7.1. You will be able to get 340 gear then.

 

I get really tired of this comment. You know what They gave me that right with play how you want then took it away because the 12 end game raiders are the loudest crying bunch there ever was in a forum. They are trying to cater to a crowd they don't have. They rolled to gearing system back to a failed system.

[ZUHFB]

So what you are saying is that the Run Sellers are the reason inflation is so high because they sell their credits to the credit sellers. So in effect, buying sales runs is the root cause of inflation. And to fight inflation, the solution is to figure out a way to stop sales runs. Intriguing.....

 

So obvious solution to me would be to flag and trace all large credit transfers, since those would be the ones where someone is buying credits or paying for a run, and ban the accounts involved. I mean a real ban, not a 7 day ban.

 

No, sale runs aren't the reason for inflation. They are the reason 3rd party sides make profit. They don't create credits.

[ZUHFB]

I'm not sure if you realize that you need 8 competent people for an operation, well most people do anyways. Claiming everyone can get the gear is a lie. It has nothing to do with getting better, because if you don't have a stable raid team, you are not gonna get the gear even if you're the server's best player.

 

And why would 340 gear be a reward for people who "don't need it"? Why do we have 340 gear in game if no-one needs it?

 

Then how come I can do R-4 HM pugs every day? How come I don't have any more toons I can do it with? It has everything to do with getting better. The first groups also had only 330 gear, Watchdog and Kanoth are a complete joke so if you can kill IPCTP in 330 you're good to go, you also can't have 340 at that point.

 

340 is the reward for completing challenging content. Nothing wrong with that, it was like this even in classic WoW.

[DWho]

No, sale runs aren't the reason for inflation. They are the reason 3rd party sides make profit. They don't create credits.

 

They most certainly are the cause of inflation now (not so much so in the past). People farm the credits (or in reality Credit Seller bots farm the credits) in order to sell them to credit sellers for real cash. Then other players turn around and pay real cash to credit sellers for those credits. Without credit sellers, there would not have been the drive to farm tons of credits. Sales runs contribute to the credit selling problem by acting as a credit gathering mechanism (they accumulate the credits from multiple players - sort of like running multiple bots - so that there is a larger sum of credits to sell to the credit sellers). They also put more of the credits into fewer hands which is what drives up costs (since rare items are in very low supply and only those with the most credits can afford them). If credits were spread out more evenly, the number of credits in the game would be of much less consequence.

[Master_Morak]

So what you are saying is that the Run Sellers are the reason inflation is so high because they sell their credits to the credit sellers. So in effect, buying sales runs is the root cause of inflation. And to fight inflation, the solution is to figure out a way to stop sales runs. Intriguing.....

 

So obvious solution to me would be to flag and trace all large credit transfers, since those would be the ones where someone is buying credits or paying for a run, and ban the accounts involved. I mean a real ban, not a 7 day ban.

 

A simple solution could also to limit gold transfer from player to player to 100.000 or 1.000.000 credits

[ZUHFB]

They most certainly are the cause of inflation now (not so much so in the past).

 

The fact that there are pricelists doesn't mean that people buy. The amount of sales has gone back a lot since 7.0

 

People farm the credits (or in reality Credit Seller bots farm the credits) in order to sell them to credit sellers for real cash. Then other players turn around and pay real cash to credit sellers for those credits. Without credit sellers, there would not have been the drive to farm tons of credits. Sales runs contribute to the credit selling problem by acting as a credit gathering mechanism (they accumulate the credits from multiple players - sort of like running multiple bots - so that there is a larger sum of credits to sell to the credit sellers). They also put more of the credits into fewer hands which is what drives up costs (since rare items are in very low supply and only those with the most credits can afford them). If credits were spread out more evenly, the number of credits in the game would be of much less consequence.

 

Ok, that is a fair argument to make. However saleraids themselves are not against the ToS, people just want to make credits without flipping GTN or buying CC - can't really blame them. I wouldn't say they the problem, but they sure as hell aren't solving it either.

[Exly]

Maybe some translation is needed here. When someone says "you don't need the best gear" - that simply translates as:

"The typical PvE player does not 'require' the best gear to play most content"

It does not translate to "only raiders should get the best gear"

There's some sort of phycological mind twist going on here. Perhaps 'projection' or whatever. In any case it's obvious that continuing to discuss it is a waste of time. 🙄

 

The problem is that only people doing hm r-4 can get the best gear. Others want it and can't get it and may never get it.

 

That doesn't mean that they shouldn't keep asking for it. As a matter of fact, they probably have a better chance of getting it if they continue to make the point that they do want it.

 

If you don't want to talk about it, then don't, but please don't accuse me of "projection or whatever" because I want something that the white knights or elitist raiders in the thread keep saying that I don't need.

 

The real bummer for me is that I want to do hm r-4, but all but one of my raiding buddies have left the game, and I am currently pugging into raids, and I am not willing to pug hm r-4 even for the gear that I want, so I am **** out of luck. That is leaving me behind the curve when it comes to learning the op and is making me reluctant to start doing it until I find a new raid team that I am comfortable with which is harder to do not because so many raiders have left the game.

 

Of course, I would be more comfortable with the idea of pugging into r-4 if I had 340 gear, but that's not possible, so once again, I am **** out of luck.

 

So, it's not about getting better gear for heroics, or dailies or gsf (lol) no matter how many times people try to convince me that I don't need the gear that I want because of their reasons and blah, blah, blah, etc. etc. etc.

[WoRei]

Then how come I can do R-4 HM pugs every day? How come I don't have any more toons I can do it with? It has everything to do with getting better. The first groups also had only 330 gear, Watchdog and Kanoth are a complete joke so if you can kill IPCTP in 330 you're good to go, you also can't have 340 at that point.

 

340 is the reward for completing challenging content. Nothing wrong with that, it was like this even in classic WoW.

 

I don't know how gear progression works in current WoW, but since you're referring to WoW Classic, hiding gear in very hard raids didn't make sense there either.

 

Can you show me a real-life sport activity in which equipment is associated with certain advances? You won't find anything because it's just nonsense. You would then argue with the 100m runner: "No, you have to run barefoot because you can run 10.5s and above without shoes. You don't need the shoes for your content. You only get them if you run under 10.5s. That's the way how you should get equipment.".

But in reality everyone runs with the same equipment, the differences in performance are not rewarded with equipment but with trophies, medals, etc. And that's exactly how I imagine it in MMOs. Defeating tough bosses or completing tough raids should be rewarded with awesome mounts, titles, and cosmetics. All things that don't affect player performance.

 

That being said, Bioware could have implemented the current gearing much better if they hadn't just focused on the NIM raiders. As before in 7.0, Conquest, Flashpoint, and PvP gear should have gone all the way up to 336. And R-4 should have given the blue 340 gear in SM (due to the difficulty) and the purple 340 gear in HM.

[ThanderSnB]

I find it funny that People would use CZ as a baseline because the only time I ever wipe there is when I try to watch a Chinese or Korean drama at the same time, because I forgot the fight in the subtitles.

 

Truthfully, I don't wipe often. I do get tired. Having the BiS gear in 6.0 helped that immensely.

 

Yeah, CZ is a pretty easy one. The places to test solo gear are MM Chapters, Eternal Championship, and Veteran Star Fortresses.

[BlackSilverRoar]

Flat out -1 to the 7.~ Dispansion gearing progression system:mad:

What were they thinking?! (rhetorical)

Edited August 16, 2022 by Willjb

[ZUHFB]

The problem is that only people doing hm r-4 can get the best gear. Others want it and can't get it and may never get it.

 

That doesn't mean that they shouldn't keep asking for it. As a matter of fact, they probably have a better chance of getting it if they continue to make the point that they do want it.

 

If you don't want to talk about it, then don't, but please don't accuse me of "projection or whatever" because I want something that the white knights or elitist raiders in the thread keep saying that I don't need.

 

The real bummer for me is that I want to do hm r-4, but all but one of my raiding buddies have left the game, and I am currently pugging into raids, and I am not willing to pug hm r-4 even for the gear that I want, so I am **** out of luck. That is leaving me behind the curve when it comes to learning the op and is making me reluctant to start doing it until I find a new raid team that I am comfortable with which is harder to do not because so many raiders have left the game.

 

Of course, I would be more comfortable with the idea of pugging into r-4 if I had 340 gear, but that's not possible, so once again, I am **** out of luck.

 

So, it's not about getting better gear for heroics, or dailies or gsf (lol) no matter how many times people try to convince me that I don't need the gear that I want because of their reasons and blah, blah, blah, etc. etc. etc.

 

But the people that do R-4 aren't doing it in 340!!! This is why your point is stupid, the point is that you CANNOT have 340 before doing R-4 and neither does anybody else. You can get to 330 easy by just using the catchup system and that gear is equal, yes exact same stats even though it's blue (another point for color doesn't say anything). R-4 is tuned for 330 gear, you can beat it in 330, you can definitely do it in 330. 330 IS the BiS pre R-4, and even if you do find a group, lets say you're a tank main - how is that going to look: not only should you just not play tank at Boss1, no you aren't going to get any 340 tokens because #1 they have more value on DPS #2 the blue gear is BiS for almost all tank pieces, so after you finished the raid evening with your team you still have to pug for not only the 4 purple pieces you need but also for the remaining 40 blue tokens (that is equal to pugging IPCPT -> Dominqiue, so 3/4) 13 times! I am BiS for tank, I did the operation more than 20 times, with the exception of Dominqiue, it doesn't get pugged usually.

 

Then people who tried to tell me it's impossible to pug after I did two pugs just yesterday, both of which were 3/4, never even tried to do it. Oh! And all of that, or rather the by far hardest boss of the three: IPCPT in 329.

 

You can absolutely do R-4 in 330, it's not even like you'd have a choice to go higher too

Edited August 16, 2022 by ZUHFB

[Exly]

But the people that do R-4 aren't doing it in 340!!! This is why your point is stupid, the point is that you CANNOT have 340 before doing R-4 and neither does anybody else. You can get to 330 easy by just using the catchup system and that gear is equal, yes exact same stats even though it's blue (another point for color doesn't say anything). R-4 is tuned for 330 gear, you can beat it in 330, you can definitely do it in 330. 330 IS the BiS pre R-4, and even if you do find a group, lets say you're a tank main - how is that going to look: not only should you just not play tank at Boss1, no you aren't going to get any 340 tokens because #1 they have more value on DPS #2 the blue gear is BiS for almost all tank pieces, so after you finished the raid evening with your team you still have to pug for not only the 4 purple pieces you need but also for the remaining 40 blue tokens (that is equal to pugging IPCPT -> Dominqiue, so 3/4) 13 times! I am BiS for tank, I did the operation more than 20 times, with the exception of Dominqiue, it doesn't get pugged usually.

 

Then people who tried to tell me it's impossible to pug after I did two pugs just yesterday, both of which were 3/4, never even tried to do it. Oh! And all of that, or rather the by far hardest boss of the three: IPCPT in 329.

 

You can absolutely do R-4 in 330, it's not even like you'd have a choice to go higher too

 

I disagree with you and that doesn't make me or my ideas stupid. I found your comment insulting and I ask that you please refrain from using language like that when addressing me.

 

I am glad that you are getting your gear. I just think that limiting gear to hm r-4 is wrong, and I feel strongly enough about it to make sure that the devs know what I think.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Exly

[ZUHFB]

I disagree with you and that doesn't make me or my ideas stupid. I found your comment insulting and I ask that you please refrain from using language like that when addressing me.

 

I am glad that you are getting your gear. I just think that limiting gear to hm r-4 is wrong, and I feel strongly enough about it to make sure that the devs know what I think.

 

No, 330 has to be enough gear for R-4 HM because neither you, nor me, not anyone can have more gear when starting R-4 HM progression. You cannot disagree, this is not how the game works. I am not saying that you don't need the gear I am saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to get it before, because it is. It's just not how this works.

Edited August 16, 2022 by ZUHFB

[DeannaVoyager]

Then people who tried to tell me it's impossible to pug after I did two pugs just yesterday, both of which were 3/4, never even tried to do it.

 

This is a good example of disinformation. When people use the term "pug", they mean average fleet pugs. Random people you pick up for the ops. Some have never been in ops before.

 

So please get a full fleet pug group, record & share how you do R-4 HM with them to back up that claim. Would be nice if you'd also share their cheevos in their video, so we can see they really are fleet pugs. Or just admit that your "pug" group was a group of experienced nim farmers picked from 1% pool of the playerbase. Enough with the half truths already.

[Exly]

No, 330 has to be enough gear for R-4 HM because neither you, nor me, not anyone can have more gear when starting R-4 HM progression. You cannot disagree, this is not how the game works. I am not saying that you don't need the gear I am saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to get it before, because it is. It's just not how this works.

 

It is currently impossible to get 340 gear without running r-4 hm, and that is the problem.

 

The disagreement that I have with the devs is in whether or not it should be that way, and I do disagree with the current system. So see, I can disagree after all.

[ZUHFB]

This is a good example of disinformation. When people use the term "pug", they mean average fleet pugs. Random people you pick up for the ops. Some have never been in ops before.

 

So please get a full fleet pug group, record & share how you do R-4 HM with them to back up that claim. Would be nice if you'd also share their cheevos in their video, so we can see they really are fleet pugs. Or just admit that your "pug" group was a group of experienced nim farmers picked from 1% pool of the playerbase. Enough with the half truths already.

 

Yeah I am going to raid with friends over randoms? I just wanted to point out that it isn't an organized group, setups were yolo and we went in to have fun.

[ZUHFB]

It is currently impossible to get 340 gear without running r-4 hm, and that is the problem.

 

The disagreement that I have with the devs is in whether or not it should be that way, and I do disagree with the current system. So see, I can disagree after all.

 

All that changed for many players is the path to 330 got easier which is, I hope we can all agree, just an improvement. The content didn't change at all, the 330 mod gear is the same as the 330 rakata. R-4 gear is significantly better than rakata gear, there is no way around it and even the pure fact you don't have to use accuracy augments in full gear is a huge gain, a gain not needed, a gain into overgear. You do NOT NEED 340, nobody does. You can (probably) clear all operations in 330 and all (but one, but it got nerfed now) have been cleared PRE-NERF. I do not see any reason for a normal player to want or care about 340 gear, it is just that far out of reach it might not even exist. No team will decline you for not being 339 GS, which is quite honestly the only reason I can think of why normal players would care, all that changed for the large majority is that you can aquire more and infinite 330 gear - whuch is already, factually, overgear for solo content.

 

Then what do you think should reward a piece of 340 gear? 3 Million conquest points on one toon? Clearing a specific MM chapter solo, lets say Chapter 1 of Kotfe seems like the fair point for me. Many many people still won't be able to get that gear, but now there is chance to do it solo? Which is all your asking for right? In guilds like Ashla you aren't even Top10 with 3 million conquest points. The problem is that outside of soloing MM kotfe chapters there is not a realistic chance for solo content that is solo-able and group content. Solo content is easy, ridiculously easy in fact. It should not EVER reward Top level gier without a grind, like 3 million conquest points, or the honestly unrealistic expactation that people who complain about gearing stand a chance vs kotfe chapter 1. Everything else could be solod by your companion, I do not want to see people get gear because they have a level 50 companion carrying them.

 

Why shouldn't many people be able to get 340 gear? It would make raiding a joke, why in the world you I do R-4 HM 13 times when I can solo MM chapters, or do heroics, or ranked, or regs or anything not requiring a group instead? Then the new content delivered would be only a new GS again, then what does the OP give? A title? A mount? Yeah nah I'll do mark of mastery, wait for NiM and then get the wings from ther instead of farming a low drop chance. Sounds quite unfair to me, the current system gives you the gear you need, if done smart even more. I do not know what gear you need, bioware does, they made the gear, they said "Yes, 326 is enough for PvP", they said "well raiding requires a group so lets make it 330" and they also said "326 for conquest is a nice bonus to the other two systems" - other wise they would've changed it.

[DeannaVoyager]

Yeah I am going to raid with friends over randoms? I just wanted to point out that it isn't an organized group, setups were yolo and we went in to have fun.

 

What you pointed out was basically a lie.

[Gyronamics]

NiM pugs are a mashup of people from various NiM raid teams who like extra raiding outside their main runs.

 

To use the phrase "pick up group" to describe the competence level is flawed.

[ZUHFB]

To me it is very much a pug, especially the ones on NA I joined where I literally knew nobody from prior experience. The ones on DM were also pretty much pugs with at most 2 people from one team and the ones on Tulak were with people from 3 seperate teams, but the community there is way smaller so it's either that or transfer to a higher pop server.

 

I am pretty sure that if I were to make a fleet pug (talking DM here) that we would still clear. People know names, if they see someone they know make a raid they are much more likely to join because reputation means more than anything else in raiding. There is nothing I can do to prevent this, I could make a Queen SM pug and the group would have at least 4 people with 90%+ OPs even though I asked on fleet. I know that that is not the experience the normal players have, but this is what qualifies as a pug to me, because I cannot make a true pug - I have tried, I cannot.

Nevermind that the requirement to get an invite would be IPCPT HM achievement, I don't think it would be hard to do "a true pug", it's not my fault players know me and that I know them. I'd be amazed to find 7 more players I've never heard of with an IPCPT achievement.

 

But everybody saying how it's not a pug wasn't really my point anyway. I see this as win.