Itemization in 7.0

[Revenaught]

And while I agree that’s probably what will happen, it will be a massively missed opportunity to add a great credit sink to the game.

 

As an example : Make it 10 mil to change the first time and 50 mil to change the second. Then cap it at 100 mil each time after that.

 

at those prices they might as well simply not allow them. I’d rather reroll a character than pay that much for even the first time.

[Tsillah]

Except from what we have been hearing the gear they are giving solo players is worse than what they already have so not sure how that is solo friendly?

 

https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9979206#post9979206

Deleted for a mistake on my part.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Tsillah

[Falensawino]

Are Renown Caches going away?

• Yes as the Renown system is being removed.
  

 

What happens to Command Crates still in our inventory?

 

https://i.imgur.com/7DzCbhH.mp4

 

when renown replaced galactic command, the loot table for command crates were nerfed, I just stopped opening my leftover command crates. Still have command crates on many toons

Edited November 11, 2021 by Falensawino

[Lyriel]

 

So no, the 306 gear is NOT better than the coming conquest gear. The optimization is better as such but it's a lot worse because all the other stats aside from power are much higher on it.

 

Except that does matter the way level capping works in all older content at the moment on PTS. It's not a static cap, it's based on allocation. We will be dependent on doing old content yet again for 7.0 Conquest. The stat allocation matters, and without access to moddable equipment solo players will be stuck in cookie cutter green gear that is by intention poorly optimized (see the dev quotes from Discord elsewhere in this thread - it's by design). The gear across the silos is not equal even at the same irating.

 

Stop telling people they should just be happy with what scraps you think they deserve.

[TrixxieTriss]

at those prices they might as well simply not allow them. I’d rather reroll a character than pay that much for even the first time.

 

They were just examples I threw out there with minimal thought. But for the credit sink to really work properly, they would need to be large. Especially when you consider a server character slot token to make more Alts is currently going for around 300 to 500 million on the GTN. That’s assuming you’ve maxed you free ones.

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

This is a flat out lie and I wish people like you wouldn't take such comments at face value. They are not as well optimized but they are definitely better. There's a lot more endurance and mastery on the new items from conquest and just 1 point less power. Then the tertiary stats are much higher again.

 

That will not give the optimum output per point for raiding but it certainly is much better in solo pve content than the current 306 gear. And I don't need to remind you that power is fixed below max level so for all the content up to level 80 you can take off all gear and still have power. Also endurance and mastery are capped in below max level content. Current 306 gear has way too many stats and hits the endurance and mastery caps. So really all that makes a difference is tertiairy stats, which are higher on the conquest gear.

 

So again, this gear is better for all content below max level because it doesn't matter how much endurance, mastery and power there is on them because there's plenty of endurance and mastery on them to go above the current cap and power is a fixed amount. And at max level (for which there will be very limited solo content) they are still much better because you get much more in endurance, mastery and tertiarity stats and only power is the same essentially.

 

So no, the 306 gear is NOT better than the coming conquest gear. The optimization is better as such but it's a lot worse because all the other stats aside from power are much higher on it.

 

Mentioned this to you before, but I'll repeat it: you're wrong.

 

I urge you to actually confirm things on the PTS before you start calling people liars. As I mentioned before, found in my testing, and confirmed by Chris on the Discord, Level Sync doesn't work that way anymore. It was changed and no longer caps at hard values, but rather caps you at an overall stat budget that's then distributed based on the stat distribution on your equipped gear. So since 306 gear is better distributed than 326 Conquest gear, it is better in downsynced content. Period. It's not better in level 80 content, which I said in my post, but it is better in all level synced content. Unquestionably.

 

I have screenshots from my testing if you don't believe me, or you can go check out the test server yourself, but please stop repeating misinformation about level sync. It changed. Anybody who's been on the PTS can confirm that.

[Tsillah]

Mentioned this to you before, but I'll repeat it: you're wrong.

 

I urge you to actually confirm things on the PTS before you start calling people liars. As I mentioned before, found in my testing, and confirmed by Chris on the Discord, Level Sync doesn't work that way anymore. It was changed and no longer caps at hard values, but rather caps you at an overall stat budget that's then distributed based on the stat distribution on your equipped gear. So since 306 gear is better distributed than 326 Conquest gear, it is better in downsynced content. Period. It's not better in level 80 content, which I said in my post, but it is better in all level synced content. Unquestionably.

 

I have screenshots from my testing if you don't believe me, or you can go check out the test server yourself, but please stop repeating misinformation about level sync. It changed. Anybody who's been on the PTS can confirm that.

I wasn't here for a few days so I couldn't find our discussion back so I didn't see your reply there, so my apologies for missing that and calling your comments lies. Regardless, that was bad form of me.

 

I won't need to go to the PTS to believe you. If level sync works differently in 7.0 then all my info is useless on the topic and I don't doubt it is, you've convinced me of my mistake. I do wonder what Chris said in the Discord. Did he give any reasons for conquest gear not being as good as the current top gear? I mean they might've felt that for solo content the issue was not how much damage people do cause that would be more than fine (in their view) but how many hit points people have was a thing so they have more survivability or something like that. I mean clearly with more stats even in level sync this gear would give you a lot more hit points I would think. Not what you want for group content but that would be the point cause group content has its own gear.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Tsillah

[Tsillah]

Except that does matter the way level capping works in all older content at the moment on PTS. It's not a static cap, it's based on allocation. We will be dependent on doing old content yet again for 7.0 Conquest. The stat allocation matters, and without access to moddable equipment solo players will be stuck in cookie cutter green gear that is by intention poorly optimized (see the dev quotes from Discord elsewhere in this thread - it's by design). The gear across the silos is not equal even at the same irating.

 

Stop telling people they should just be happy with what scraps you think they deserve.

I learned indeed that level sync works differently now so I'll accept that I was wrong on that.

 

I'm not telling people to "be happy with the scraps I think they deserve". They will get gear that is plenty good for solo content still. It might do less damage than the 306 gear fully optimized that we have now but that's just now at start and there will be more endurance on there. So that's what BW saw happening in the last couple of years. I mean how much dps do you need in solo content? There is already a sense of overkill especially with our companions being very powerful. Perhaps survivability is the more necessary thing in solo content.

 

What I am saying is that solo players (like me) really don't need the kind of gear that raiders need and if you do want that without doing raids then in my view you're being entitled. Sure I did group content in the past but due to health reasons I haven't been able to do that in recent years. So I'm also saying whatever you think I'm saying to myself.

[Lyriel]

I learned indeed that level sync works differently now so I'll accept that I was wrong on that.

 

I'm not telling people to "be happy with the scraps I think they deserve". They will get gear that is plenty good for solo content still. It might do less damage than the 306 gear fully optimized that we have now but that's just now at start and there will be more endurance on there. So that's what BW saw happening in the last couple of years. I mean how much dps do you need in solo content? There is already a sense of overkill especially with our companions being very powerful. Perhaps survivability is the more necessary thing in solo content.

 

What I am saying is that solo players (like me) really don't need the kind of gear that raiders need and if you do want that without doing raids then in my view you're being entitled. Sure I did group content in the past but due to health reasons I haven't been able to do that in recent years. So I'm also saying whatever you think I'm saying to myself.

 

Telling people to be happy with the scraps they get is exactly what you are saying. Like here:

 

How is this not solo friendly? You still get gear plenty good enough for doing solo content but because you're green with envy you want even better gear that only raiders would need because their content is much harder to do?

 

You're entitled, no matter how you want to shill it.

 

Your own words show that you believe people asking for things like moddable gear (you know, like we've had since early days), or at least gear that is not abysmally optimized such that they lose power relative to the old content they have to play to get any rewards, should be grateful that what they get is 'good enough' for then in your opinion. Other people have different opinions on the matter, and that they disagree with you does not make them entitled or green with envy. Your posts convey an attitude of telling the plebes what they deserve, because you alone know best.

 

It's tiresome.

[casirabit]

I learned indeed that level sync works differently now so I'll accept that I was wrong on that.

 

I'm not telling people to "be happy with the scraps I think they deserve". They will get gear that is plenty good for solo content still. It might do less damage than the 306 gear fully optimized that we have now but that's just now at start and there will be more endurance on there. So that's what BW saw happening in the last couple of years. I mean how much dps do you need in solo content? There is already a sense of overkill especially with our companions being very powerful. Perhaps survivability is the more necessary thing in solo content.

 

What I am saying is that solo players (like me) really don't need the kind of gear that raiders need and if you do want that without doing raids then in my view you're being entitled. Sure I did group content in the past but due to health reasons I haven't been able to do that in recent years. So I'm also saying whatever you think I'm saying to myself.

 

I tend to do some of the harder solo content (the veteran and MM chapters). I like doing those for a challenge. I will when my guild is on do some other things with them so having gear that does not help me kill things in this type of content can and will be problem. I do not expect gear that you might need for operations but I do expect gear that can at least do what content I am use to doing now, if not there is a problem and that means BW did not consider that.

[Revenaught]

They were just examples I threw out there with minimal thought. But for the credit sink to really work properly, they would need to be large. Especially when you consider a server character slot token to make more Alts is currently going for around 300 to 500 million on the GTN. That’s assuming you’ve maxed you free ones.

 

Granted, which is really my problem with credit sinks in general. In order to be effective they have to be something people want bad enough to blow large amounts of credits for. But in the end it just makes items or services that only the credit wealthy can afford.

[Tsillah]

It's tiresome.

Well so are your comments. Of course when I made the comment about the entitlement, I wasn't aware yet of the level sync being changed in 7.0. The thing is though that there is a sense of entitlement. That's been the way for years now by solo players who wanted BiS gear and got it at the cost of progression raiding for raiders. I'm a solo player now but I have no such sense of entitlement because I know that whatever gear I can get will be good enough for the content I will play.

 

What I will say is that I think that BW is making a mistake here. Why because they gave in to the sense of entitlement for years now and suddenly they're turning it around and, as I understand now, with worse gear than what we currently have. Now, I'm sure it will still be good enough for solo content, but it's a bit stark of a difference and that's why I think they're making a mistake with this. So let's hope that by the time it hits the live servers that the base gear for any progression conquest, FP, PvP or Ops is better than the current gear.

 

However, I have a feeling they won't do that because the crafting changes won't come with 7.0 and I suspect that they wanted crafting to stay sort of relevant still until they can get around to that. It's a bad reason but I think that's at least part of the reason.

 

So let me explain just to make it clear what I mean with entitlement: when you feel you deserve the same as other players that actually need that gear to complete harder content.

This doesn't extend to how the conquest gear is actually not as good as current gear because of how they do the level sync. The idea is that each type of content would get a progression model, but that for solo players it's actually inferior than current gear is simply bizarre. Again, I'm sure it's good enough but I think they miss their mark with this conquest gear.

[Pigglesworth]

Max new gear ratings (7.0 gear upgrade caps):

326: This can be obtained by doing anything in game (Conquests).

322: Story Mode Legacy Operations

326: Veteran Mode Legacy Operations

330: Master Mode Legacy Operations

 

So, will the 326 gear obtained from conquest have the same stats as the 326 gear obtained from the veteran operations? Or, will one set be better optimized than the others?

[Zulufoxtrot]

The Spoils of War equipment sets will no longer drop from content nor be able to be directly purchased from a vendor. As a result, the achievements will be moved to the Feats of Strength category. The sets will still be obtainable via Kai Zykken’s Random Unique Items box.

Terrible idea that doesn't mesh with the overall thrust of trying to reduce RNG. Just keep a few vendors around and airlock Kai.

[ceryxp]

Or, will one set be better optimized than the others?

 

Yes. This is another aspect of this itemization scheme that has not been shared here but has been revealed by Chris Schmidt on Discord.

 

The gear from Conquest will be green only and have the least optimized stats. In other words, Conquest players will get the gear with way too much endurance and crap stats everywhere else.

 

Flashpoints will be blue quality and operations will be purple. PVP will go through the spectrum starting at green with 316 and moving into purple at higher item ratings.

Edited November 12, 2021 by ceryxp

[TrixxieTriss]

Granted, which is really my problem with credit sinks in general. In order to be effective they have to be something people want bad enough to blow large amounts of credits for. But in the end it just makes items or services that only the credit wealthy can afford.

 

That’s the idea to target the ultra rich. Otherwise Bioware add credits sinks that target everyone, including those who can least afford it and that puts undue strain on them and it doesn’t even affect the wealthy. Just like the tried with amplifiers.

[AdjeYo]

Yes. This is another aspect of this itemization scheme that has not been shared here but has been revealed by Chris Schmidt on Discord.

 

The gear from Conquest will be green only and have the least optimized stats. In other words, Conquest players will get the gear with way too much endurance and crap stats everywhere else.

 

Flashpoints will be blue quality and operations will be purple. PVP will go through the spectrum starting at green with 316 and moving into purple at higher item ratings.

 

That actually sucks major ***. I defended the idea of having a couple of extra item levels on nim operations (and I stand by that), but conquest gear absolutely shouldn't be also poorly optimised. This will make downscaled content harder than it is right now due to the way the new bolster works.

 

Gear optimisation should be the same across all tracks!

Edited November 12, 2021 by AdjeYo

[Spikanor]

Will the DvL items be available for credits instead of tokens?

• No - DvL items will remain available for tokens. We will add back in the ability to acquire tokens in a future update via the DvL bosses.
  

on this part i like to have more info from the developers since if you only get the DvL tokens from the DvL boss and there is no other way to get then you only get that the same players get the tokens and others not get any chance to get the tokens any more.

so will there be a other system that is going to replace the Renown system we have now and also get from the new system the same way to get the DvL tokens like we now get from the Renown level up system.

i like to have more infomation about it since so far its going become worse and a lot off players not will get the DvL tokens any more then.

[ceryxp]

That actually sucks major ***. I defended the idea of having a couple of extra item levels on nim operations (and I stand by that), but conquest gear absolutely shouldn't be also poorly optimised. This will make downscaled content harder than it is right now due to the way the new bolster works.

 

Gear optimisation should be the same across all tracks!

 

I could bite the bullet, I would not like it but I could deal with it, if the gear tiers per activity were simply gated at item ratings and not item rating + quality (stat distribution). Start everyone in green and put caps at certain levels that would then increase throughout the 7.x release cycle. In this way everyone would eventually get to the highest item rating with the same stat distribution; it would just mean that R-4 players would get to the top first, followed by legacy Ops, followed by Fps, followed by Conquest. I could accept that.

 

But that is not what they are doing. Conquest is green, flashpoints are blue, etc., so when Jackie says "Over time, as more patches are released in the expansion, you will be able to upgrade your gear more and more, including unlocking the moddable gear vendor," I can not help but think ********.

 

So will those mod vendors that Conquest players eventually unlock only offer green mods with the same crap stat distribution or will Conquest players be able to unlock the same mod vendors as everyone else with the same purple (or gold) mods and the same optimized stat distribution?

 

Until they answer that question my verdict is that this itemization scheme is ********.

 

I have cancelled the 180-day recurring subs on both of my accounts. When 7.0 launches I will play the story on my two main characters and check out Galactic Season 2. If I find GS2 worthy of my time I will sub to do that and then drop again. Maybe I will come back later after they have either issued their mea culpa or have finally upped the IR high enough for Conquest players to access the mod vendor. But at the rate that they release updates I would not hold my breathe that Conquest players see the mod vendor before a year-and-a-half, at least.

[Toraak]

I could bite the bullet, I would not like it but I could deal with it, if the gear tiers per activity were simply gated at item ratings and not item rating + quality (stat distribution). Start everyone in green and put caps at certain levels that would then increase throughout the 7.x release cycle. In this way everyone would eventually get to the highest item rating with the same stat distribution; it would just mean that R-4 players would get to the top first, followed by legacy Ops, followed by Fps, followed by Conquest. I could accept that.

 

But that is not what they are doing. Conquest is green, flashpoints are blue, etc., so when Jackie says "Over time, as more patches are released in the expansion, you will be able to upgrade your gear more and more, including unlocking the moddable gear vendor," I can not help but think ********.

 

So will those mod vendors that Conquest players eventually unlock only offer green mods with the same crap stat distribution or will Conquest players be able to unlock the same mod vendors as everyone else with the same purple (or gold) mods and the same optimized stat distribution?

 

Until they answer that question my verdict is that this itemization scheme is ********.

 

I have cancelled the 180-day recurring subs on both of my accounts. When 7.0 launches I will play the story on my two main characters and check out Galactic Season 2. If I find GS2 worthy of my time I will sub to do that and then drop again. Maybe I will come back later after they have either issued their mea culpa or have finally upped the IR high enough for Conquest players to access the mod vendor. But at the rate that they release updates I would not hold my breathe that Conquest players see the mod vendor before a year-and-a-half, at least.

 

From what I've seen on the PTS green conquest gear has the same stats as Blue Vet FP gear of the same Ilvel. which makes me believe the gear quality doesn't matter. it just shows how you got your gear.

[Revenaught]

That’s the idea to target the ultra rich. Otherwise Bioware add credits sinks that target everyone, including those who can least afford it and that puts undue strain on them and it doesn’t even affect the wealthy. Just like the tried with amplifiers.

 

yeah I get targeting the rich. And amplifiers were fine as they never added up to a significant enough benefit to come near to being worthwhile for me to chase.but the rich with creds to burn could get those few extra percentage point. But something like this if offered as a option that can be bought should be affordable by all. What I would suggest if they did offer it but want to keep its occurrences to a minimum is to make it a progressive cost based on the legacies total funds. That way it’s equally accessible by and painful for rich and poor alike. .

[Lyriel]

From what I've seen on the PTS green conquest gear has the same stats as Blue Vet FP gear of the same Ilvel. which makes me believe the gear quality doesn't matter. it just shows how you got your gear.

 

Except that is not how it's been described by the dev in charge: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/889962788095668234/908132263450013757/unknown.png

 

The disparity in allocation is intended, with the best allocation for raiders and the worst for Conquest gear. It's specifically tied to the quality.

[Nee-Elder]

Except that is not how it's been described by the dev in charge: ChrisS talking about optimization in Discord

 

The disparity in allocation is intended, with the best allocation for raiders and the worst for Conquest gear. It's specifically tied to the quality.

 

As i implied in my earlier post from page 66 , i personally find it both sad & silly that this supposed "dev in charge" never bothers to post his coveted INFO here at SWTOR.com , the very website of the game for which he designs.

 

Regardless, i also couldn't care less about whatever the heck BioWare is attempting with 'gearing' for the ummteenth time, since my core motivation for playing SWTOR since 2011 beta is the exact same motivation that the original true devs promoted: STORY

 

p.s. Anyone seen a GSF dev around?

Edited November 12, 2021 by Nee-Elder
Lyriel keeps changing FAULTY "link" reference

[Toraak]

Except that is not how it's been described by the dev in charge: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/889962788095668234/908132263450013757/unknown.png

 

The disparity in allocation is intended, with the best allocation for raiders and the worst for Conquest gear. It's specifically tied to the quality.

 

Based on Personal experience on the PTS Conquest greens have the same stats as Vet FP blues of the same ilevel. So take that for what you will.

 

PS: your link doesn't even work btw.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Toraak

[Lyriel]

Well so are your comments. Of course when I made the comment about the entitlement, I wasn't aware yet of the level sync being changed in 7.0. The thing is though that there is a sense of entitlement. That's been the way for years now by solo players who wanted BiS gear and got it at the cost of progression raiding for raiders. I'm a solo player now but I have no such sense of entitlement because I know that whatever gear I can get will be good enough for the content I will play.

 

What I will say is that I think that BW is making a mistake here. Why because they gave in to the sense of entitlement for years now and suddenly they're turning it around and, as I understand now, with worse gear than what we currently have. Now, I'm sure it will still be good enough for solo content, but it's a bit stark of a difference and that's why I think they're making a mistake with this. So let's hope that by the time it hits the live servers that the base gear for any progression conquest, FP, PvP or Ops is better than the current gear.

 

However, I have a feeling they won't do that because the crafting changes won't come with 7.0 and I suspect that they wanted crafting to stay sort of relevant still until they can get around to that. It's a bad reason but I think that's at least part of the reason.

 

So let me explain just to make it clear what I mean with entitlement: when you feel you deserve the same as other players that actually need that gear to complete harder content.

This doesn't extend to how the conquest gear is actually not as good as current gear because of how they do the level sync. The idea is that each type of content would get a progression model, but that for solo players it's actually inferior than current gear is simply bizarre. Again, I'm sure it's good enough but I think they miss their mark with this conquest gear.

 

Let me start by apologizing. While I retain my personal interpretation of your posts, the manner in which I described them wasn't cool. I'm obviously frustrated, but there was no reason to take that out on you. You're not the cause of my frustration. While we disagree on some things, we agree on others, and clearly you are among those who care about what is happening in this game.

 

Solo/casual players did not get gear 'at the cost of' progression raiding for raiders. Players are not responsible for the pace or content of releases. BW is, and they have never had a good pace, much less a practice of including regular content updates for all playstyles (though some periods were certainly worse than others). Like you, I used to raid in this game. My small guild used to be less small and we did have raid groups. But those that were interested in that content left long ago and it wasn't because the gearing wasn't vertical - at the time, it was. They left because of lack of regular new content (especially ops) - and I don't see any confirmed signs that the pace of that is changing. That's sad, because I do want everyone who plays the game to have content they want to play. It makes the game richer, even if I am not likely to see all of that new content personally.

 

Likewise, players do not create the reward systems in the game - and remember, this is a game. There is no actual risk here, it's all pixels. Gear as a reward is going to be contentious, and not just because they are flipping 180 on their stated philosophy about getting rewarded for any playstyle you enjoy. Better gear makes all content easier, not just raids. It is not needed to clear vet raids, because you can't get it until you've already done so. I get it may be needed for the NiM versions of the same raids - but its utility is not limited to those raids. If it was, I think this whole debacle could be rendered moot.

 

What better gear does is make content easier, period. And we've been through more than enough phases in this game where the HM/NiM crowd, bored after getting everything they can out of the little ops content available, come back and complain about how easy all the other content in the game is. Some of that feedback is in the form of demands that the rest of the content be made more difficult so as to be a challenge to them. And some of it is directed (in an unpleasant manner) at players who aren't as overgeared as they are and don't have the same ease with the non-ops content. This is part of why some casual players are unhappy. We've seen it before. This time, though, the gap will be larger because it's not just the irating, it's also the optimization and the gating of the ability to at least mitigate some of that via modding until some undefined future date with as-yet unknown further restrictions. Not everyone is unhappy solely about the irating aspect of the coming changes, and focusing on that is losing sight of the other aspects that come with it.

 

I'm not sure how the current state of crafting will 'stay sort of relevant' with the release of 7.0. It's not relevant now, except a couple of small niches that can still make credits. Very little a non-raiding crafter can reliably get the mats to make outside of those is worth making (and getting those mats as a casual player is becoming harder with 7.0, not easier). So I can't share your optimism that they will, at some unnamed future date, make it suddenly relevant again - and especially not in terms of itemization, when their entire schema depends on the siloed vendors as the sole upgrade routes.