Refund Timer Change

[FlameYOL]

For the sake of argument, I can accept your rationalization that the system was intended for people who made mistakes (even though the mistake of buying the wrong gear piece is penalized, and heavily). But then the cap needs to be increased to something closer to 50000, so that people who are smart and patient with their currency are not penalized.

 

I would like a higher cap as well.

[cyrusramsey]

I'm rather shocked at most replies here--like, literally found my mouth hanging open there.

 

I can understand wanting the cap to be higher, I can understand annoyances regarding Kai Zykken's opening hours, but when you know a cap exists and deliberately bypass it, you don't get to act like the wronged party. They're fixing a system and bringing everyone who abuses the refund timer in line with everyone who isn't abusing the refund timer before an update that would've otherwise greatly benefited those that did abuse it.

 

It's in fact this very sort of update that shows why the cap exists in the first place--mind you, I'm not a fan of it, I don't think there are many people out there who have earned as many tech frags as I have, in the absolute sense, and would much rather have saved them for something I cared about than throwing them at items I didn't really need, but that's exactly what the cap is for, that I don't get to instantly buy up all the new augment components I could ever need, when someone else could start with at most one. It's to stop newly added carrots from being caught and eaten as of 2 minutes after the servers come back up.

 

Complain about the cap, complain about Zykken, don't pretend that what you're doing isn't giving you an advantage over people that don't abuse this loophole.

Edited April 15, 2021 by cyrusramsey

[Exly]

But the difference is the ESO (for example) you don't have a hard cap of credits (gold) or pvp points so you don't have to temper your game play because you know you won't get any rewards for it.

 

Maybe their servers are overworked, or maybe they can downsize them and save money if we temper our game play. Either way, they care much more about themselves and what they want, than their customers.

 

I don't think that anyone should be surprised that they are making this change.

Edited April 15, 2021 by Exly

[TrixxieTriss]

with the addition of the quest on PTS that allows you to exchange 10 000 tech frags for one RPM/OEM which would equal to about ~40m credits, not a terrible thing if the "saving tech frags using mount" thing really is harmful

 

Yes, but with this added option, those RPM/OEM’s will significantly drop in price

 

And while I sort of agree that there shouldn’t be loop holes for storing tech frags. The reason people do it or want the option to do it is because the tech frag limit is too low.

 

As other players have pointed out, BioWare could alleviate this pressure valve a little bit by increasing the tech frag total and/or having Kai Zykken there permanently (or for longer each week).

 

Players are upset because there doesn’t seem to be any give and take with BioWare. We’ve been asking for a moderate increase in the tech frag limit since 6.0 landed. The only reason people look for work arounds is because BioWare are so ridged in their decision making and aren’t willing to compromise.

 

Just extending the time Kai Zykken is available to 5 days and increasing the techfrags would help relieve some pressure on the valve. (In this day and age, not everyone’s “weekends” are Saturday and Sunday. Many people have their weekends mid week).

 

The reason the pressure is there for some players is because they play a lot or have a lot of Alts. If you’re in a guild that does medium or high yield, you will get 400-500 tech frags per Alt each week. And if you have 20-25 alts, you max out you’re techfrags when you login on Tuesday/Wednesday (depending on time zone).

I got through 34 Alts last week on medium yield. That’s 13,600 tech frags before I even start playing any content.

It feels like the most loyal (or addicted) players are being penalised for their time.

 

An increase in the limit to between 20,000 & 30,000 would definitely help. It’s not like we can escape the RNG at the vendors anyway, so it’s not going to drastically increase people obtaining the actual gear they want. Which is why there is a tech frag gate to start with because they want to slow down the gearing (as per Chris’s Discord chats).

 

Also increasing the number of days that Kai Zykken is there won’t let you escape the RNG factor. But it will mean you can play Kai Lotto for longer each week (assuming he has nothing to buy direct). Increasing Kai Zyyken’s availability would also be adding extra credit sink time into the game because his wares require credits as well as tech frags. So it’s a win / win for BioWare and players alike.

 

I hope Chris is reading this or these ideas and reasons are passed along to him (Jackie, if you wouldn’t mind) because it would be (IMO and obviously others) in the best interest of the game.

 

Edit: To sum up: Bioware please increase the time Kai Zykken is available to 5 days and increase the tech frag limit to 20,000 or 30,000. This will easy the pressure valve for players who get 20-25 characters through conquest each week.

 

Thank you in advance for considering our plight.

Edited April 16, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[phalczen]

I'm rather shocked at most replies here--like, literally found my mouth hanging open there.

 

I'm not shocked at all by the replies. We all know who this is targeting.

 

Look, I've followed enough posts both in the theorycrafter discord as well as pts to deduce there should be something available on Kai come 6.3 that costs 10000 fragments and gives a datapad that grants a quest whose reward is something, I don't know if its a choice between an OEM or an RPM but it doesn't really matter. I can see the exploitability if such a valuable material can be bought in quantities via banked fragments. Furthermore I am actually sympathetic to FlameYOL's point that the system was intended to address the inevitable "Oops!"es in life. The refund timer system pre-dates 6.0 and spoils of war, as I'm sure you are aware Mr. Ramsey, you just couldn't get end game gear with it the way you can now.

 

I would submit to you that it is entirely possible my approach is not unique. I try to play as much of the game as I can on as many toons as I can. I have patiently accumulated my set boni on all my toons and have worked on optimizing modifications whenever I can. For some toons it was rapid, however, I only just managed to get the full Emergency Power set for my vanguard tank on April 1 of this year, exactly 503 days after it was introduced (game update 6.0.1). I pretty much have whatever the theorycrafter discord says is best in slot for all my toons, save for a low level shadow that will need two copies of Death Knell and a second EP set for my powertech. In the course of "Playing My Way," it is not difficult for me to get close enough to the cap that I need to "bank" some fragments by using the refund timer on the spoils of war mount vendor until I can see what Kai will have for sale that week. I hesitate to admit that it wasn't until probably 6 months or so ago that I discovered on my own it was even possible to bank fragments in that manner. Before that, I would have to put a brake on how much I would do in game until Thursdays. This wasn't irrelevant, because my work shift schedule often means my days off are in the middle of the week. Now, I still have to plan a little, but I can pretty much enjoy the game without being concerned that my earnings will be lost in cyberspace because I've gone over the rather arbitrary cap.

 

I don't think I'm "entitled" to the present workaround, in the sense that the developers have no right to fix it, but I'm certainly not going to apologize for being wise and patient with my fragments, especially since my playtime is very valuable to me. And I certainly do advocate for a better system for storing these according to individual player preferences. If you want to call that entitlement, so be it. But I'm not demanding anything. In my first reply to this announcement I advised that the developers should raise the cap.

[cyrusramsey]

Stuff

 

My 'shock' was not aimed at you. I don't fully agree with all you've said, and felt dirty after reading your gross abuse of the word "rationalization", considering the shapes people have been bending themselves into in this thread, but I basically agree with all the suggestions people have been making.

 

As soon as someone acts like a victim after using a system in a way they very well know it wasn't intended to be used (and you all very well knew it wasn't intended to be used that way), well, I've lost any respect I had for several people in here.

[LasagnaSurfer]

I suppose that's their definition of "Play Your Way." When I first heard that slogan I was reminded of 1984. Justifiably so, it appears.

 

Less than three.

[fatheroftheyear]

IMO the cap should be raised to somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000. A 6pc set bonus + Amplified Champion piece + tactical is 24,000 tech frags. It seems reasonable for the limit to allow for buying at least 1 set of gear pieces.

 

The mount refund timer is only being used this much because the cap of 10,000 is too low.

Edited April 15, 2021 by fatheroftheyear

[phalczen]

My 'shock' was not aimed at you. I don't fully agree with all you've said, and felt dirty after reading your gross abuse of the word "rationalization", considering the shapes people have been bending themselves into in this thread, but I basically agree with all the suggestions people have been making.

 

As soon as someone acts like a victim after using a system in a way they very well know it wasn't intended to be used (and you all very well knew it wasn't intended to be used that way), well, I've lost any respect I had for several people in here.

 

Well, we all know that there are exploits, for example, credit dupes, which circumvent the games intentions. Getting into a last boss area and defeating that boss without killing the other bosses in the op is another example. Win trading is another. But in order to have tech fragments to have to bank at all, you had to have played the game, and played it more or less how the developers intended. I know there are folks 'round these here parts who used to justify those extreme exploits under the logic that, "Well, I am playing the exact game the devs programmed/coded ... its not my fault the devs introduced a bug that let me buy a chair for free and sell it for 1000s of credits."

 

But I think a bit of common sense is warranted here. You have to play the game, and a lot of it, to get so many tech fragments that you have to bank them in the manner being discussed. I mean, I'm sure the developers have the data and in the 18 months since SoW was introduced there haven't been many tech fragment exploits in terms of acquisition overall. Tech fragment rewards haven't been heavily nerfed, rather they've been thrown around or moved to different missions or new ones altogether. Ergo, since the acquisition of said fragments is reasonably legitimate, it is appropriate to address those players' needs for more tech fragment space at the same time as you address the workaround/loophole/exploit. Development has an opportunity here to address the problem (and it is a problem) before it goes LIVE, not like the way they "addressed" the Rakghoul relic antiviral kits and took 6 months to issue a new item that still doesn't replicate its "experience" correctly.

 

I don't think its hyperbole to predict this nerf will have serious implications on my gameplay, especially in the Tuesday-Thursday window. I'm not saying I can't plan around it, clearly I will have to make some purchases of gear to bring the total down in order to continue playing. Just like even with the Rakghoul Antibody Dispersal Droid I still need to plan to bring the relic or a stack of vaccines when I go fight the event world bosses, because the cooldown on the Dispersal Droid is a ridiculous 5 minutes. But both examples are inconveniences brought about by the devs addressing a long term loophole/workaround/exploit, inconveniences that add unnatural breaks to the fluidity of my play. As a subscriber I have the privilege to bring that up for discussion.

 

I am not acting like a victim here because they caught me with my hand in the cookie jar, but I am asking for a reasonable replacement, since all I was doing was playing the game legitimately.

[Darittha]

thats just great, now my best option is to waste the 200-300k tech i have stored on zyken for set bonus pieces i dont need because my 6.0 gear cheevos got bugged and autocompleted some time ago.

 

Raise the cap to at least 100,000. wheres the guy who gave us 200,000 cap for wz comms some time ago?

Edited April 15, 2021 by Darittha

[Jamtas]

As was mentioned, the conquest reward day is Tuesday. Those with many characters that participate in conquest can easily hit that 10K cap (and also massively exceed it) on that day, and then there is still the 2 day wait for Kai to show up. I think an increase in the cap and/or having Kai stay up all week and just rotate stock on Thursday would be a nice gesture. Also gives the benefit to making Kai available to the entire player base (as I'm sure there are those who may only play between his appearances).

This isn't something that I think is worth quitting over, but there could be (more likely will be) the unintended consequence of people scaling back their play. That means less people in Operations, WZ, FP, Uprising and GSF queues as a result. I really don't think this game (or any game) needs to provide disincentives to players from playing the game.

Just something for the devs to mull over.

[DeannaVoyager]

Really, addressing an exploit is ruining the experience now:rak_02: Jesus this entire thread is "making a storm on a cup of water" as we say in my country, y'all too mad about this.

 

 

 

Simple, let's take tech fragments as an example you have 10k max storage. With this, you could potentially have "unlimited" tech fragments, you log into an alt, buy as many items as you can, log-off and have that "storage" ready to be returned in case you need more tech fragments beyond the cap. This is a tactic that has been used by storagers for years, long before Spoils of War came around.

 

Use currency to buy something, return item when you need more of that currency. While not exactly the most malicious thing in the game it is sort of an exploit as you're using the refund system in a way that's not its intended purpose, "oh I bought the wrong item" or "I don't really like this" so you'd return it, instead it turns into a way to have an extra amount of the endgame currency. Instead of continuously farming for that currency like the developers intended. Whether or not its fair its own separate discussion (one I don't really care for since I never used and never will use this tactic), but its pretty clear they're just patching a hole in their system that has been lingering for years.

 

Now that being said, I do agree with fellow posters when they say they should increase the cap on tech fragments, though I disagree with this change being the end of the world. But what will you do, its the forums after all, such behavior is not atypical.

 

I know how storing fragments work, you could have saved your breath there. I want to know how using a credit sink unbalances game economy when I am only buying BoL stuff that I mostly disintegrate immediately. Also your name is not ChrisSchmidt, I want to hear an official explanation, not someone's speculation.

 

Btw, you can't really call it an exploit as it's been in game for years. It's a feature. If BW would consider it as an exploit, they would have done something about it years ago and banned everyone who used it. But sure, keep calling it an exploit, and people see you calling them exploiters, and soon we have yet another flamewar going on.

[DeannaVoyager]

I'm rather shocked at most replies here--like, literally found my mouth hanging open there.

 

I can understand wanting the cap to be higher, I can understand annoyances regarding Kai Zykken's opening hours, but when you know a cap exists and deliberately bypass it, you don't get to act like the wronged party. They're fixing a system and bringing everyone who abuses the refund timer in line with everyone who isn't abusing the refund timer before an update that would've otherwise greatly benefited those that did abuse it.

 

It's in fact this very sort of update that shows why the cap exists in the first place--mind you, I'm not a fan of it, I don't think there are many people out there who have earned as many tech frags as I have, in the absolute sense, and would much rather have saved them for something I cared about than throwing them at items I didn't really need, but that's exactly what the cap is for, that I don't get to instantly buy up all the new augment components I could ever need, when someone else could start with at most one. It's to stop newly added carrots from being caught and eaten as of 2 minutes after the servers come back up.

 

Complain about the cap, complain about Zykken, don't pretend that what you're doing isn't giving you an advantage over people that don't abuse this loophole.

 

So you are calling everyone who used this feature an abuser? Then care to explain why BW hasn't banned people who do it? Or maybe you are salty because you didn't know how to store them and wasted yours, and now you are crying abuse because you weren't smart enough. Yeah, that's the way to communicate and will sure keep this conversation civil.

 

I don't see anything wrong with saving up your salary until the day you get to buy things you want to, instead of throwing it away when youre pockets are full. It gives zero advantage to anyone, the fragments have been earned by fair game play and conquest. If someone would be able to multiply them out of thin air, that would be an unfair advantage, that would be abuse. But if someone works harder, earns more, what you are basically saying, they should get the same salary (=rewards) than the people who work a lot less. Yep, sounds about right... not.

[Exly]

So now we have to stop accepting our weekly conquest rewards, and stop getting toons to 50k conquest points until Kai opens for business if we want to maximize our access to the mission that allows us to get the augment mats. That is so user friendly, not.

 

Once more, the devs have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. This change could have made me happy if done right, but instead, they chose to piss me off, again!

Edited April 15, 2021 by Exly

[The_Hightower]

Really, addressing an exploit is ruining the experience now:rak_02: Jesus this entire thread is "making a storm on a cup of water" as we say in my country, y'all too mad about this. ...

 

It appears that my fellow German (?) has not been able to google the English equivalent of "Ein Sturm im Wasserglas" which seems to be "a storm in a teacup", but that's an investigation for another day.

 

Since the change will very likely come:

 

Increase the tech fragment cap from 10k to 100k and/or open Kai Zykken the entire week (the items he offers may change at the time he opens at the moment)! This seems to be the summary of the above.

 

Any of these options would enable anyone who wants to gamble on Kai Zykkens items to do so. Furthermore, we would not have to carefully reach the tech fragment cap of 10k by storing and disintegrating items to be able to do the 10k OEM/RPM Quest without wasting too much tech fragments.

 

The increased storage capacity would neither affect the economy in any relevant manner.

[phalczen]

but that's exactly what the cap is for, that I don't get to instantly buy up all the new augment components I could ever need, when someone else could start with at most one. It's to stop newly added carrots from being caught and eaten as of 2 minutes after the servers come back up.

 

You know, I just saw this in DV's quote ... I am not going to address DV's reply or anything, that's for the two of you to discuss, but I did want to address this particular point.

 

I follow what you are saying ... BW is big on eliminating head starts, I agree. The thing is, this supposed 6.3 Unusual Datapad thing for 10k fragments is the first and only "carrot" they have added to Kai in 18 months, and it already has a self limiting function on it besides its price, if I am understanding the information coming from the PTS forums and the theorycrafter discord when I've bothered to read them. There aren't any other carrots that have ever been added post launch, because 3000 tech fragments for a single Legendary Ember is an insult, not a carrot (and it isn't on Kai anyway).

 

In fact, its far more likely that this 10k cap was designed for the same reason there was a 3k cap on Galactic Command Tokens in 5.x ... the stated reason back then was that they put a cap on tokens to make sure any undiscovered exploits would not go too far. I don't have the exact citation but it was back early on in 5.x when they first round of changes to Galactic Command and its exciting RNG was in development, back when Musco actually posted about the game. Anyway, if there was some sort of exploit on command token gain, this way it would not be too damaging. I suspect the 10k limit was designed the same way ... to preemptively limit the gains from an undiscovered exploit in tech fragment earning. This is of course in addition to its primary reason, which was to prevent people from buying a full 6-piece bonus in one shopping spree, "because reasons." (Again, I say, so what, who cares, people who played that much ought to have been rewarded, and its just a storage cap not a weekly earning cap, so it was more of an inconvenience than a throttle on gearing ... but I digress.) There is no indication that it was ever meant to prevent any carrots from being bought on day 1 of said carrot's launch, because there have been no carrots for 18 months.

 

So, I get that the functionality of the Spoils of War Mount refund timers was not intended to circumvent the 10k tech fragment cap, but to suggest that the cap existed to keep people from being able to get a head start on the new carrots is a big leap of logic, given, well, the reality of the past 18 months.

[phalczen]

several people [snip] want to keep the loophole active, so they can keep using the system in a way that it was not intended, and attacking BW over the fact that they soon won't be able to anymore.

 

Ahh, but if they rush to fix this loophole without addressing the problem that led people to use the loophole in the first place, then its another Rakghoul relic situation, and that creates bad blood. I don't want the loophole to stay open per se, but I want the underlying problem addressed in the less than two weeks we likely have before 6.3 goes live. Otherwise, it will likely never be addressed.

[phalczen]

It appears that my fellow German (?) has not been able to google the English equivalent of "Ein Sturm im Wasserglas" which seems to be "a storm in a teacup", but that's an investigation for another day.

 

I believe the equivalent idiom translation is "Tempest in a teapot," which I like because of the alliteration and because Americans like me don't use the word "tempest" nearly enough.

[cyrusramsey]

So, I get that the functionality of the Spoils of War Mount refund timers was not intended to circumvent the 10k tech fragment cap, but to suggest that the cap existed to keep people from being able to get a head start on the new carrots is a big leap of logic, given, well, the reality of the past 18 months.

 

Well, no. I mean, don't get me wrong, I feel awkward here because I don't really want to be on this side of the discussion. I want to be the one saying there should have been more content, that the cap should have been (much, much) higher, that all of this shouldn't have been an issue. It is an issue, though, but while I have immense trouble with the concept of being concise, the only proper response to that last statement is "no".

 

I don't even know where to start now. I can point out that my example was only about one relevant new addition, but the whole fuss going around right now is a pretty clear indication of how many of the more active players among us are feeling slowed down by the cap, I can point out that they most likely didn't plan ahead to not add anything for 18 months, I can point out that even if these new additions were the only thing to consider, it will still just be.. a system functioning properly within an environment that does not see a lot of new content added at a regular basis, which would sound like a nice description of swtor as a whole.

 

It's perhaps not a good thing, but no leap required, it's perfectly logical.

Edited April 15, 2021 by cyrusramsey

[cyrusramsey]

Ahh, but if they rush to fix this loophole without addressing the problem that led people to use the loophole in the first place, then its another Rakghoul relic situation, and that creates bad blood. I don't want the loophole to stay open per se, but I want the underlying problem addressed in the less than two weeks we likely have before 6.3 goes live. Otherwise, it will likely never be addressed.

 

Well.. we are pretty well aligned on that matter. I mean, I get fussy about specifics, and I know I do. I cringe at the example of rakghoul relic because as far as anyone knew, they were being used as intended. People didn't know there was something that needed fixing until they changed it. People already knew what they disliked about the tech frag cap and Kai, but the most vocal group seemed to let it go because they got themselves a loophole.

 

It's specifically because I am hoping for a more constructive resolution that everyone can benefit from, not just the more experienced and/or knowledgeable players, that I'm frustrated with posts that are basically just angry rants at the devs about wanting to keep their loophole. This should be an opportunity to push for proper changes. But.. I seem to just be eliciting responses that.. also don't make me feel like it's going anywhere constructive, so I am probably just going to bug out of this one.

Edited April 15, 2021 by cyrusramsey

[Falensawino]

Increase the tech fragment cap, please.

 

IMO the cap should be raised to somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000. A 6pc set bonus + Amplified Champion piece + tactical is 24,000 tech frags. It seems reasonable for the limit to allow for buying at least 1 set of gear pieces.

 

The mount refund timer is only being used this much because the cap of 10,000 is too low.

 

10,000 is too low

 

 

 

I hope this means you will be raising the cap of tech frags otherwise you're now punishing the players grinding for set gear otherwise this is a slap in the face to your core players.

So why not raise the limit? The only players with excess tech frags are those who do excess content. A lot of players, myself included up until recently, stored tech fragments so they could roll on Kai Zykken when he opened. By doing this, any game content I do would be an utter waste since I'd either be forced to spend tech fragments on things I do not want to, or any content after reaching the limit would not contribute. Either way, players are being punished for doing more than 10k worth of content. If this 10k limit must be adhered to, why not just keep Zykken open all week? Then there would be little to no reason for anyone to store fragments, and we wouldn't have to be punished for doing as much content as we like.

Amen to above

or make Kai Zykken open all week

Edited April 15, 2021 by Falensawino

[Falensawino]

with the addition of the quest on PTS that allows you to exchange 10 000 tech frags for one RPM/OEM which would equal to about ~40m credits, not a terrible thing if the "saving tech frags using mount" thing really is harmful

We need a tech fragment cap increase for this quest. 10,000 cost in a 10,000 cap means some tech fragments will be lost in the fire, saving up to do the quest. The needs to be some leeway so we can earn tech fragments and pay for the quest's cost. Edited April 15, 2021 by Falensawino

[Spikanor]

the refund timer change is good that it will go on game time and not login time.

 

since some items have a refund time off 1 day and to stay 24 hours online with that char to remove the bound is taking longer then the 1 day refund time.

 

so its a good thing there going to chance it to in the game time and that you not have to be online with that char to get the timer down to 0.

[lordoftransform]

the refund timer change is good that it will go on game time and not login time.

 

since some items have a refund time off 1 day and to stay 24 hours online with that char to remove the bound is taking longer then the 1 day refund time.

 

so its a good thing there going to chance it to in the game time and that you not have to be online with that char to get the timer down to 0.

Not really a good justification imo. If I want to get rid of a timer I can just mail an item to another character of mine. But even with that slight bit of convenience for some people, it still doesn't change the fact such a low limit compounded with Zykken not always being open hurts players who earn a lot of tech fragments.

[TUXs]

Increase the tech fragment cap, please.

 

10,000 is too low

 

or make Kai Zykken open all week

Do both. 10,000 is stupid low.