Refund Timer Change

[merovejec]

Then just increase the fragments cap please.

[JattaGin]

Either way, players are being punished for doing more than 10k worth of content. If this 10k limit must be adhered to, why not just keep Zykken open all week? Then there would be little to no reason for anyone to store fragments, and we wouldn't have to be punished for doing as much content as we like.

 

So much ^^this!!!!

 

I literally play on 5 different servers these days, because on Wednesdays, I reach 10k fragments on my server and I have to wait until Friday morning to buy random armor pieces from Kai (or lose out on a lot of fragments). I mean, it's nice to see what's going on on other servers, but it's weird to me that in order to not feel like wasting playing time, I play on the French server instead. Even though I enjoy still being able to understand a lot of French, it really shouldn't have to be the case.

 

Have Kai be open 24/7. Do it. Come on, do it.

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

I can't speak for anybody else, but any time I'd have actually done this would be because I simply don't have anything at the moment to spend tech fragments on. I would love more things, especially things like cosmetic items and decorations, to be available for tech fragments so there's something to use them on that isn't a waste.

 

For cosmetics specifically, the armor sets and weapons that used to drop from the Galactic Command crates would be great to have for purchase with tech fragments. There were some great looks in both of those that are 100% unobtainable now outside of people who already had them. You could put them on a vendor like you did the mounts and pets from that system and I think that alone would help alleviate some of this issue, since people could buy those items instead of letting their TF go to waste.

 

The other obvious issue here is that the cap is too low. If it was at a reasonable place, I don't think people would be doing this. Maybe increase the cap too?

[Char_Ell]

Not really a good justification imo. If I want to get rid of a timer I can just mail an item to another character of mine. But even with that slight bit of convenience for some people, it still doesn't change the fact such a low limit compounded with Zykken not always being open hurts players who earn a lot of tech fragments.

 

I understand you and other players of your caliber perceive this timer change as punishing players who want to have more than 10K tech fragments available for use.

 

I on the other hand perceive this as a way for BioWare to ensure the hard core players that invest a lot of play time and resources and know of this exploit don't get an unintended advantage, specifically with the apparently incoming method to convert 10K tech fragments into valuable end game crafting material, over the players that don't utilize this exploit.

 

Did BioWare intend for a player's legacy to be able to have access to more than 10K tech fragments at a time? The answer is a clear no. This was not BioWare's intention.

 

Claiming the 10K frag limit is too low or other options for spending tech frags are needed is certainly valid feedback. It seems that BioWare has not made any adjustments to this area in quite some time so maybe they should do something here (like add a way to convert tech fragments into a valuable end game crafting material). I just think this is the latest symptom in an ongoing ailment for SWTOR and other online games, namely their players advance at wildly different rates and how does a developer manage their game so that new/casual players aren't demotivated by the huge gap between them and the hard core players. I'm not sure if any developer has come up with a good way to deal with this naturally occurring disparity.

[Sarova]

Against the interests of the players. What a surprise.

Not me. I all for this change. I'm been moaning about the refund timer being too long for years.

[powerofvoid]

But, I did do exactly that. In the last six days I've earned/deconstructed the equivalent of roughly 20000 tech fragments or so. However, I'm a smart shopper ... I do not wish to waste tech fragments on something I may earn in a conquest equipment crate or be on sale on Kai in about 25 hours from the time I post this. Why should I be penalized for being frugal and patient with my currency that I earned?

 

For the sake of argument, I can accept your rationalization that the system was intended for people who made mistakes (even though the mistake of buying the wrong gear piece is penalized, and heavily). But then the cap needs to be increased to something closer to 50000, so that people who are smart and patient with their currency are not penalized.

It sounds like the intended purpose of the TF cap is to prevent people from hoarding currency.

 

You are getting penalized by design, because you are attempting to hoard something that you are not supposed to hoard.

 

The solution is to either:

• Learn to let go and stop worrying about "losing" tech frags when they can't buy anything you want.
  
• Spend the tech frags that you weren't going to be able to hoard anyway on things you can buy with them.

[Falensawino]

Against the interests of the players. What a surprise.

Not me. I all for this change. I'm been moaning about the refund timer being too long for years.

refund timer being long doesn't affect you at all.

 

There's no benefit to shortening the refund timer.

 

If you're super cheap, you can essentially borrow vendor items and return them in 2 hours.

Meaning you could deck out your level 70 toon with 252/258 item rating gear from the Masterwork Vendors on Ossus. play for 1hour and 50minutes then sell it all back for a full refund of your credits. Borrowing gear and returning for full refund.

 

I just found out this week, (I played a space mission for extra conquest points this week) you can buy 6x Grade 5 Starship Upgrades from the Starship Upgrades vendor in fleet . Equip them on your ship, complete space missions and return all the gear for full refund of credits.

 

Making refund timers tick during log off period, makes playing on the cheap, borrowing gear a hassle. Have to remember to return everything before log off. Then rebuy everything next log in. Repeat.

 

Modifying how refund timers work, helps no one but the devs. To keep a squeeze on tech fragment cap. it's not for the players.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Falensawino

[TrixxieTriss]

It’s obvious the basis for the change is to prevent players from getting a head start on collecting too many RPMs. That is the only reason this is getting done now because they want to time gate the mats for 300 augments. Otherwise, the incentive for playing team ranked or NiM operations is reduced.

 

While this is arguably what they should do to stop the market from being flooded or some players who’ve hoarded tech frags from making a killing on the GTN when these are first introduced at the vendor. Bioware have missed the reason why many players were hoarding tech frags to start with before these new augment mats are put on the vendor. It’s because the tech frag cap is too low for players who have more than a handful of Alts and because Kai Zykken isn’t available for longer in the week for players who can’t play much when he’s there.

 

As others have mentioned, including myself. The obvious solution is to increase the tech frag limit and increase the length of time that Kai Zykken is available during the week. Then the changes are more palatable to everyone (except those hoarding tech frags for the new mats at the vendor )

Edited April 16, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[GuigeekRhadamant]

Well now, we need at least a 50K TF cap

[TrixxieTriss]

Well now, we need at least a 50K TF cap

 

Why do you need a 50k cap? I’m not saying I wouldn’t like one, but where is your argument to take it from 10k to 50k.

[DeannaVoyager]

I understand you and other players of your caliber perceive this timer change as punishing players who want to have more than 10K tech fragments available for use.

 

I on the other hand perceive this as a way for BioWare to ensure the hard core players that invest a lot of play time and resources and know of this exploit don't get an unintended advantage, specifically with the apparently incoming method to convert 10K tech fragments into valuable end game crafting material, over the players that don't utilize this exploit.

 

A lot of people don't seem to understand the meaning of the word exploit. Exploiting is gaining some unfair advantage over other players, and that has not happened. Everyone in the game has had the same opportunity to store fragments, literally everyone. Some have chosen not to, or didn't know how to, but regardless it's been possible for everyone. Buying mounts is not even the only way store them. You can spam Toborro or Mek-Sha weekly and not open the crates until you need the fragments. You can store as many renown crates or loot boxes and not open them until you need frags. Clearly BW has intended the boxes to opened and rewards claimed because they keep dropping from everything, but maybe we should call people who don't open them exploiters too, because in a way, they are storing fragments until they can use them. Does it make sense? No. Or maybe we should add timer on loot boxes too, so that some people wouldn't be able to store and exploit them to only open them when they need something. Makes sense? I don't think so.

 

Devs have not called this an exploit, but some players on their high horse seem the be the highest judges here. If devs would consider it an exploit, it would have been patched years ago like some real exploits we've seen over the years. It has been a feature, and the feature is now being changed. If someone is happy about it, go ahead. Your happiness doen't take anything away from me. However when you all come here to yell exploit and calling people who stored them exploiters, you are only creating bad blood. You are not creating a community, you are creating rifts. Is that the kind of community you want to be a part of?

[SoontirMorillo]

I don't understand all this stuff. Why are people talking about this?

 

Wasn't it the same thing with pvp tokens back then and/or with command token?

 

Everybody does know, what a cap means. Some people choosed to ignore what was intended and decided to go around the cap, with this odd timer mechanic. It got abused heavily. Bioware had to change it.

 

At the start of introducing amplifiers, people abused the resell function to get the amplifiers they wanted for zero credits. Bioware had to change it.

 

Stop abusing mechanics. Simple.

 

Don't tell me, you all don't know, what a cap is.

 

If you think, the cap is too low, make a plea to raise it. Stop abusing the system.

 

And for the love of god, stop playing the victim on the forums, if Bioware decide to stop the abusers.

[Ahwassa]

Please raise the cap for tech fragments to 30.000 or higher.

I play enough to get 20.000-30.000 k per week so that I can buy Kai Zykken stuff.

 

If you remove the mount buying storage I would need to buy Isotopes or whatever to not waste fragments.

And since I have enough credits I obviously don´t want to do that.

 

So please raise it.

[Sarova]

Meaning you could deck out your level 70 toon with 252/258 item rating gear from the Masterwork Vendors on Ossus. play for 1hour and 50minutes then sell it all back for a full refund of your credits. Borrowing gear and returning for full refund.

Isn't this the exact reason they are changing it?

 

The long timer irritated me and the change saves me from my own stupidity so I'm happy about it.

[Char_Ell]

A lot of people don't seem to understand the meaning of the word exploit. Exploiting is gaining some unfair advantage over other players, and that has not happened.

 

Definition of exploit from dictionary.com

1. to utilize, especially for profit; turn to practical account:
   to exploit a business opportunity.
    
   
2. to use selfishly for one's own ends:
   employers who exploit their workers.
    
   
3. to advance or further through exploitation; promote:
   He exploited his new movie through a series of guest appearances.
   

 

Exploit in the context I used it falls closer to the 2nd definition. With games an exploit is an action the game allows that was unintended by the developer. Players that have utilized this specific exploit have gained an advantage over other players that haven't used this exploit by being able to bank more then 10K tech fragments at a time which enabled them to buy more items with the excess tech fragments than players that did not use this banking technique.

 

Devs have not called this an exploit, but some players on their high horse seem the be the highest judges here. If devs would consider it an exploit, it would have been patched years ago like some real exploits we've seen over the years. It has been a feature, and the feature is now being changed. If someone is happy about it, go ahead. Your happiness doen't take anything away from me. However when you all come here to yell exploit and calling people who stored them exploiters, you are only creating bad blood. You are not creating a community, you are creating rifts. Is that the kind of community you want to be a part of?

Design Director Chris Schmidt posted "The reason behind this change is we observed some unintended behavior where the mechanics of the refund timer were being used to store more resources than intended by limits intentionally set in order to balance the game economy’s inflows and outflows." You want to call it a feature. I call it an exploit. It's a difference in opinion and I expect we're unlikely to agree. I will acknowledge the nature of the exploit does not, in my opinion, warrant any type of player disciplinary action.

 

BioWare has allowed this "unintended behavior" for a long time so I can understand being upset that BioWare has only now finally decided to make an update to prevent this behavior because BioWare's previous inaction lends credibility to the behavior's permissibility. However if you are offended because those players who don't know about or don't utilize this "unintended behavior" are not upset that BioWare has decided to finally address this issue and thus are not supportive of those that have utilized this "unintended behavior" then that is what it is. In my opinion and apparently those of others who have read between the lines, BioWare is taking this action to prevent players utilizing this "unintended behavior" from being able to profit more than BioWare intends from a method of acquiring high quality end game crafting material using tech fragments that looks like it will be added with the 6.3 update. If you are unwilling to acknowledge that as the impetus for BioWare's announced action then you are clearly only taking your own concerns into account and ignoring the concerns of other parts of the community.

[DeannaVoyager]

Why do you need a 50k cap? I’m not saying I wouldn’t like one, but where is your argument to take it from 10k to 50k.

 

When I was still playing this game actively, I got nearly 50k fragments by Friday. Then I spent it all on Kai Zykken, and whatever I earned during the weekend, I also immediately spent on Kai Zykken. So yes, 50k cap is really easy to reach.

 

But at least I don't have to worry about it anymore. There has not been a word about infinitely repeatable conquest objectives such as heroics for solo players, and doing conquest on weekends only with once per day per legacy objectives is just not worth my time. Not being able to save fragments until Kai Zykken opens means there is no reason to login until Friday. Maybe I'll spam GSF for the infinite participation points. It seems to be the only objective where you don't actually have to do anything to get the points, and I can play something I actually like at the same time on another computer.

[DeannaVoyager]

[

 

The text color you chose is really difficult to read so I won't bother to quote it again, I can't even read that much bright green wall of text. So if I missed sometthing important you wrote, too bad.

 

There is no advantage over other players, when everyone can do the same thing if they want to. Next time you look up a word from the dictionary, you should at least try to understand what it says, instead of distorting the explanation to suit your personal agenda.

 

There is no exploit, not according to devs, not according to your dictionary. Exploits in the game have been patched as soon as they've been found. Devs have not announced an exploit, you and some other folks literally made it up in your head and try to use that as a weapon against other players. What do you get out of it? As long as you keep calling people abusers and exploiters when there has not been abuse or exploits, you are verbally abusing them and that doesn't give you a moral highground, it makes you a hypocrite.

 

But at least you answered my last question: You rather play in a community where everyone is at each other's throat instead of trying to play nice and that's a shame.

[Char_Ell]

The text color you chose is really difficult to read so I won't bother to quote it again, I can't even read that much bright green wall of text. So if I missed sometthing important you wrote, too bad.

 

That is interesting. It's the same color I used in my first post you previously quoted. I just think you're telling me you don't like nor agree with what I wrote so you summarily dismiss it. Ce la vie.

 

Next time you look up a word from the dictionary, you should at least try to understand what it says, instead of distorting the explanation to suit your personal agenda.

 

*snip*

 

As long as you keep calling people abusers and exploiters when there has not been abuse or exploits, you are verbally abusing them and that doesn't give you a moral highground, it makes you a hypocrite.

 

But at least you answered my last question: You rather play in a community where everyone is at each other's throat instead of trying to play nice and that's a shame.

From what I have read here you are the one twisting what I wrote to suit your personal agenda so I think you should take a good long look in the mirror when calling someone a hypocrite. Edited April 16, 2021 by Char_Ell

[TrixxieTriss]

When I was still playing this game actively, I got nearly 50k fragments by Friday. Then I spent it all on Kai Zykken, and whatever I earned during the weekend, I also immediately spent on Kai Zykken. So yes, 50k cap is really easy to reach.

 

Wow that’s a lot of tech frags. How many Alts were you getting through conquest each week because even with my 34 last week on medium yield, it was only 13,600 tech frags. Of course that doesn’t take into account any extra frags I’d earn from playing content till Kai arrives. But don’t think I could get to 50k in 3 days.

 

Im not saying you didn’t reach it, but I certainly wouldn’t say it’s easy to do because I know how many hours I need to put in per week to get my 34 through and then add extra frags on top of that (I’m also not saying they shouldn’t do it).

 

I wonder if Bioware collect that sort of data or bother looking at it. I’d love to know the percentage break down of tech frag accumulation per week from conquest completion and activities for legacies each week.

[DeannaVoyager]

Wow that’s a lot of tech frags. How many Alts were you getting through conquest each week because even with my 34 last week on medium yield, it was only 13,600 tech frags. Of course that doesn’t take into account any extra frags I’d earn from playing content till Kai arrives. But don’t think I could get to 50k in 3 days.

 

Im not saying you didn’t reach it, but I certainly wouldn’t say it’s easy to do because I know how many hours I need to put in per week to get my 34 through and then add extra frags on top of that (I’m also not saying they shouldn’t do it).

 

I wonder if Bioware collect that sort of data or bother looking at it. I’d love to know the percentage break down of tech frag accumulation per week from conquest completion and activities for legacies each week.

 

I capped around 70-80 characters per week, but yeah, I used to play a lot. Maybe calling it easy is pushing it a bit though... It was a lot of work. Now I just log in for raids and mostly play another game. I guess my addiction to swtor has been cured by the changes we've seen since 6.0. To list a few:

 

- Scaled ops

- HS farming

- Toxic behavior in GF fps, which got worse with 6.0 and horrible with steam release)

- HS farming

- Lvl 75 are forced to do MM flashpoint for conquest objectives, which make incompetent people to q MM, which adds to toxicity and HS farming

- HS farming

- UI changes, such as distracting ugly pop ups on top of quickbar when you hover over a relic, medpack and whatnot

- HS farming

- The adware bar that doesn't stay closed, and doesn't stay where I put it

- HS farming

- Conquest changes to please the obnoxious mob that was sent to the forums to attack people

- Did I mention HS farming?

- Wookie hugging cheevo being reset from people who completed it the first time around, and adding ridicilous cheevos like the login one

- HS farming

- P2W augments

 

 

- The last incentive to play (Kai Zykken) besides raiding will be taken away with the tech frag refund timer change.

[LasagnaSurfer]

Raise the cap to 200k just like planetary commendations caps was.

[LasagnaSurfer]

Why do you need a 50k cap? I’m not saying I wouldn’t like one, but where is your argument to take it from 10k to 50k.

 

For one the precedent that in the past we could keep 200,000 commendations. So let's return to that baseline number.

[TrixxieTriss]

For one the precedent that in the past we could keep 200,000 commendations. So let's return to that baseline number.

 

But why? It would take weeks of play to hit 200,000

[TrixxieTriss]

I capped around 70-80 characters per week, but yeah, I used to play a lot. Maybe calling it easy is pushing it a bit though... It was a lot of work. Now I just log in for raids and mostly play another game. I guess my addiction to swtor has been cured by the changes we've seen since 6.0. To list a few:

 

- Scaled ops

- HS farming

- Toxic behavior in GF fps, which got worse with 6.0 and horrible with steam release)

- HS farming

- Lvl 75 are forced to do MM flashpoint for conquest objectives, which make incompetent people to q MM, which adds to toxicity and HS farming

- HS farming

- UI changes, such as distracting ugly pop ups on top of quickbar when you hover over a relic, medpack and whatnot

- HS farming

- The adware bar that doesn't stay closed, and doesn't stay where I put it

- HS farming

- Conquest changes to please the obnoxious mob that was sent to the forums to attack people

- Did I mention HS farming?

- Wookie hugging cheevo being reset from people who completed it the first time around, and adding ridicilous cheevos like the login one

- HS farming

- P2W augments

 

 

- The last incentive to play (Kai Zykken) besides raiding will be taken away with the tech frag refund timer change.

 

I’d like to add a few to your list that have put me off the game since 6.0

 

- lock out timer for reg pvp

- requiring wins to advance your missions in pvp

- crafting Nerfed in conquest

- refund timer change with no change to tech frag storage or extending Kai Zykken availability

- amplifier lotto

- excessive RNG trying to get BiS gear

- crafting mats gated behind ranked and NiM operations

- zero communication from the dev team (not Jackie) since the pvp changes were made over 9 months ago (we still wondering if they’ve collected enough data yet to warrant tweaking what they did or if they’ve actually improved pvp from Biowares perspective)

- more, but can’t be bothered to go and find all the things.

Edited April 17, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[lordoftransform]

I understand you and other players of your caliber perceive this timer change as punishing players who want to have more than 10K tech fragments available for use.

 

I on the other hand perceive this as a way for BioWare to ensure the hard core players that invest a lot of play time and resources and know of this exploit don't get an unintended advantage, specifically with the apparently incoming method to convert 10K tech fragments into valuable end game crafting material, over the players that don't utilize this exploit.

 

Did BioWare intend for a player's legacy to be able to have access to more than 10K tech fragments at a time? The answer is a clear no. This was not BioWare's intention.

 

Claiming the 10K frag limit is too low or other options for spending tech frags are needed is certainly valid feedback. It seems that BioWare has not made any adjustments to this area in quite some time so maybe they should do something here (like add a way to convert tech fragments into a valuable end game crafting material). I just think this is the latest symptom in an ongoing ailment for SWTOR and other online games, namely their players advance at wildly different rates and how does a developer manage their game so that new/casual players aren't demotivated by the huge gap between them and the hard core players. I'm not sure if any developer has come up with a good way to deal with this naturally occurring disparity.

 

I personally fail to see how my doing more work giving greater rewards constitutes an unfair advantage. It's not like I had a week head start on everyone, I just did the same routine anyone else is capable of. If the real problem is the potential hoarding of OEMs and RPMs, then maybe attaching them to tech fragments is a bad idea, and another currency, or just having them cost flat-out tens of millions of credits would be better. I don't understand how it's even logical for them to impose such a small cap and penalize us for quite easily reaching it. The limit needs to be increased, Zykken should be open all week, and these OEMs and RPMs should either cost a lot of credits or cost way more than 10k tech frags, so people who just want to gear and do their normal activities don't have to feel restricted.