Zarovich Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Why do people keep saying Operatives/Scondrels are squishy? They wear Medium Armor, not light armor. Marauders/Sentinels wear Medium Armor, are they squishy too? I've seen level 50 Juggs/BH's get killed by Operatives/Scondrels on their opening KD moves, does that make them Squishy too? Anyways my only real concern with them are; the ability to burn someone down before they can react. And I don't care if they need crits to be able to do it too. As a stealth class they can get away easily enough to keep trying until they get the favorable crits to make the fight no effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohnam Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 ... what? you can easily chain dirty kick and knock down. I've been victim of this many many times. Maybe someone who has already been recent victim of OTHER CCs, but someone who hasn't? Yeeeeah, no. Are you saying they do the dirty kick first? Because I call BS because we need to use our opener from steal and dirty kick breaks stealth. Usually my knockdown fills the resolve bar and I have to wait for that to go down first. If you are getting dirty kick after the knock down then you should pop a defense cool down before the resolve bar goes empty to absorb the incoming damage from the next cc or use your cc break during the dirty kick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuari Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Are you saying they do the dirty kick first? Because I call BS because we need to use our opener from steal and dirty kick breaks stealth. Usually my knockdown fills the resolve bar and I have to wait for that to go down first. If you are getting dirty kick after the knock down then you should pop a defense cool down before the resolve bar goes empty to absorb the incoming damage from the next cc or use your cc break during the dirty kick. I believe its usually Sap, attack, dirty kick, vanish, knock down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrix Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 You level 50? If not, then you likely don't have your strongest bursts that can easily allow you to pretty much 2 shot people. No joke. I'm personally not asking for a HUGE nerf, but no class should be able to do that. Are you the best spec? Do you have the best gear? Are you the best at your class? Now ask the same questions about the Ops that are pwning you? So many factors go into PvP you can't just come on here and cry nurf! I've never played a class that everyone said was OP and PWN with it. I've played classes peeps said suck and do well with them, then roll a class labeled as great in PvP and suck. What the difference is....everyone listneing?....THE PLAYER BEHIND THE KEYBOARD! Also, sme classes excel at certain things. An Op, if given the chance to keep you in melee just might have what we call and advantage. However, keep that op away from you and all he can do is shoot for hella less dps than his melee can do, especially if he is concelment spec. Class balance is always and issue, yes, but to cry the damage has to be lowered a lot? Come on now. I've been pwnd by just about every class there is. I guess its not because of differences in gear, level, skill, etc. It must be they are all op and have to be nurfed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeskimo Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) Operatives in general don't need to be nerfed. It's the lethality operatives (don't know the name of the scoundrel spec). They do tons of internal damage that bypasses armour... on top of the regular scoundrel crits. Most likely the ones that are pwning people in 5 seconds are spec'd lethality. What BW needs to do is make it so elemental/internal damage is only mitigated on mobs.. but passed the normal armor checks on players. Edited January 4, 2012 by Jeskimo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EduardoJN Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Im not touching the Warzones subject for now, cuz i think that will be solved in time, but... ...IMO, this game has a short time since launch and we all have to learn how to properly play our classes instead of crying about nerf or derp. Things that, for me, a player has to know when in PVP: 1- Oportunity (learning how to use the habilities correctly and properly, in the right moment, not only spamming and striking without purpose) 2- Equipment (learning that the proper gear can make the diference between life and death, dont underestimate getting a good gear set for u as soon as u can) 3- Experience (learnig how to fight each class properly, instead of asking for nerfs and derps. This is a big issue around here: ppl complaining that certain classes are OP, my char is ****, the other guy gives me 4k damage, etc.....but the fact is, again, IMO, that we all have to learn how to fight other classes properly, cuz the style changes. A ranged classe will not have the same style as a melee and so on. The stats on our chars makes the diference too: critical, shield, absorption, etc, we gotta learn how to manage them properly.) And guess what: for me at least its taking some time to get used to all this. This is my first MMO, i havent played WoW before, but its cristal clear that this MMO world is almost cientific: u gotta learn how to properly level, equip and fight....otherwise the complains about PVP will never stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studweizer Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Let me start of by saying I hate operatives! I pretty much hate anything that can turn invisible, because, PVP is a lot about timing and they have a definite advantage. But, every time I get crushed by an operative, he is usually geared and 50, or close to it. I am a 33 rage/jugg and still have an absolute blast. Show me a geared 50 operative, against other geared 50s and I don't think there will be a problem. Do they need a nerf? I don't know. Until more people are 50 and we have more examples all the QQ is an absolute waste. Would I like to see melee hit harder because I have one? Of course, who wouldn't. But I have to assume that all the crying is because people are bad. Even if a operative opens up on you and hits hard, you still have a chance, especially in a WZ. Open world 1v1 pvp and even the WZ 1v1 is not something that can be a basis for balance. And if you are dying to quickly it is because of a gear/level/buff situation. This is the best pvp experience I have had in a game less than 3 weeks live, and I have a supposed **** pvp class according to the forums goers. Weeks or months from now if operatives are killing equally leveled and geared people, the nerf talk maybe would have weight, not yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevvy Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 It does not fill it completely. You want to lie, go right ahead, but don't expect people to fall for it. Does it only fill the bar 99% of the way? Because it looks pretty full every time I Hidden Strike someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felene Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 It does not fill it completely. You want to lie, go right ahead, but don't expect people to fall for it. Uhn... depends on what we are talking about here, . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bekkal Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I believe its usually Sap, attack, dirty kick, vanish, knock down. If he's sapping you, you're either alone (in which case you're asking to die) or he's bad (in which case you should laugh as you kill him). Never trinket a sap. I don't know if our knockdown can be trinketed (i haven't seen one trink'd yet) but it's usually a bad idea to trinket any opening cc as well. If you can CC him once, you can likely kill him. Keep in mind his Vanish is on a 2 min c/d. I see a lot of you never did Arenas in WoW. These things are considered par for the course for soloing against a rogue/ops/whatever. He's going to hit you hard and fast and there isn't a ton you can do about it. Resist the urge to panic and run, turn around, and kill him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuari Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Are you the best spec? Do you have the best gear? Are you the best at your class? Now ask the same questions about the Ops that are pwning you? So many factors go into PvP you can't just come on here and cry nurf! I've never played a class that everyone said was OP and PWN with it. I've played classes peeps said suck and do well with them, then roll a class labeled as great in PvP and suck. What the difference is....everyone listneing?....THE PLAYER BEHIND THE KEYBOARD! Also, sme classes excel at certain things. An Op, if given the chance to keep you in melee just might have what we call and advantage. However, keep that op away from you and all he can do is shoot for hella less dps than his melee can do, especially if he is concelment spec. Class balance is always and issue, yes, but to cry the damage has to be lowered a lot? Come on now. I've been pwnd by just about every class there is. I guess its not because of differences in gear, level, skill, etc. It must be they are all op and have to be nurfed! When unavoidable two-three shotting is involved, there is no skill on either side. This invalidates ALL your questions. You can be as skilled as you want, but if you can't do anything, its game over, even if you are a world champion. I'm not asking them to be nerfed into the ground, but it should be reasonable at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mursie Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 ops/scoundrel opener gives full white resolve bar on open. this does little to help you though, when over 80% of your health is gone in the time it takes to respond and cc-break (should you be lucky enough to have that off cooldown). further, resolve does not respond to snares, roots. So if the operative opens on you... takes 80% of your life... and then snares you to get easy access to your back... you are dead. It may have felt like a stun-lock...it wasn't...but that really doesn't matter. the dmg was done. broken class is broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarovich Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Does it only fill the bar 99% of the way? Because it looks pretty full every time I Hidden Strike someone. I'm not sure it even matters on how much resolve you get if your dead or nearly dead by the time you stand up from the intial KD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevvy Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I'm not sure it even matters on how much resolve you get if your dead or nearly dead by the time you stand up from the intial KD. I was being sarcastic because the kid accused me of being a liar, yet doesn't know what he's talking about. Sounds a lot like most of the uninformed QQ here... HRMMMMMMMM... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuari Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) If he's sapping you, you're either alone (in which case you're asking to die) or he's bad (in which case you should laugh as you kill him). Never trinket a sap. I don't know if our knockdown can be trinketed (i haven't seen one trink'd yet) but it's usually a bad idea to trinket any opening cc as well. If you can CC him once, you can likely kill him. Keep in mind his Vanish is on a 2 min c/d. I see a lot of you never did Arenas in WoW. These things are considered par for the course for soloing against a rogue/ops/whatever. He's going to hit you hard and fast and there isn't a ton you can do about it. Resist the urge to panic and run, turn around, and kill him. Usually in a group, and considering that the sap strategy WORKED and worked well as it kept my from interrupting his stealth, yeeeah, sorry, but I'm thinking that you're just not using it right. Plus even if I DoT them, the vanish usually lasts long enough for them to get their attack off. Also I really don't care if its on a 2 minute cooldown, no other 2 minute cooldown kills people quite like that. Not to mention 2 minutes can be pretty short at times. If you're not lying about the opener filling resolve, then yeah, this guy I ran into, the only 50 scoundrel I've seen so far, has a working strategy. Pop sneak, move into the guys in the back that aren't at threat of AoE, and begin rapid murder. I'll complement him on knowing what he's doing in that regard if nothing else. Edited January 4, 2012 by Kuari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohnam Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I'm not sure it even matters on how much resolve you get if your dead or nearly dead by the time you stand up from the intial KD. That's why people need to run with their defense cool down always up. Its not a reactive it a proactive. That negates a lot of our damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raelimar Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 The burst is incredible...best in the game, hands down. But if you nerf that, Operatives/Scoundrels need something else in return, because we're garbage in Huttball right now. The most important tools in Huttball are gap closers (like force leap), combat sprints, grapples/pulls, and knockbacks. Operatives have none of those, so we have far less utility in the most-played PvP map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bovinity Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 That's why people need to run with their defense cool down always up. Was that sarcastic? How exactly do you run around with a "cooldown always up"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackadda Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Your burst DPS is impressive i will say, but alot of the burst i have seen has been on individuals who are not lvl 50 and who are not geared at all. That is why i don't feel they are OP yet. I want to see that burst on a lvl 50 in full pvp gear and then be able to judge it further... Ok... burst DPS on a Full PVP geared 50 Smugg vs Full PVP geared 50 Merc (15.5k hp)... unmitigated burst of about 19k with crits.. (enough to take 13-14k during the knockdown though 36% dmg mitigation) Actually the knockdown is probably the most broken thing about scoundrel//operative melee ganking, the damage isnt so bad by itself...its the length of time they get to attack a helpless target during the knockdown without fear of retaliation which is the most broken....they they vanish though DOT's...and do it again. I think unstealthing needs a global timer with vanish... so they are vulnerable for 10-15 seconds after opening. BW should also Fix the knockdown animation so it takes ~1 second to be back fighting... then revisit the equation. OP... without changes, yes...... they in desperate need of some tweaking to SOME aspects of the burst/CC/Vanish equation... Stealth that resembles Combat cloaking in Stark Trek online would be prefect... need 20 seconds to recloak ...and cant cloak for 20 seconds after taking damage. i.e as a melee operative or scoundrel you might gank me...but doing so if im not alone should get you killed by the 3 others sitting at the cap. the "get out of jail free" aspect is whats most broken right now.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juicenewtonz Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Honestly, the only thing scoundrels / ops are good for is gibbing lowbies, anyone with any pvp gear will just break the opening stun and knock them away or heal through their entire burst with 1 biochem medpack / pvp healing consumable. get level 50, get some gear, laugh at how useless scoundrels / ops are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainInsano Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 So if the Operative crits on every attack from his opener onward he can get you down to 20%? Wow, news at 11. It's a burst class doing burst damage. Operatives don't have much outside of that burst being the only class with no knockback, gap closer, or pull. Furthermore, Operatives still can't take down tanks and guarded players. If anything the PvP damage pendulum in this game swings towards survivability over burst, but that's only when people actually play their class roles. If you're a low level player then yes, you will be killed inside the opener sometimes considering you have about 4k less hp than a geared level 50 and 0 expertise. That's BW's fault for not implementing level brackets. But I can tell you at geared level 50 play Operatives don't make much of a dent in group situations if the opposing team is organized. They have that opening burst, which fills the resolve bar btw, then not much else. Nerfing that burst would make the spec totally useless and you would just see every Operative respec healer (which is probably what people want, actually). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMesk Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Both the KD from shoot first, and the "sap" fill the resolve bar to full making following it up with any other stun/snare etc useless... So even if you pop up at 20% if the first thing you do is snare them and move away... enjoy watching them attempt to finish you off outside of 10m and completely unable to catch you. Baddies are going to die regardless, you just happen to die faster to a "rogue"... there is no surprise there. If in a warfront any "rogue" can pull off his opener more than once a life then you failed... even as a healer as soon as I see a stealthy the first thing I do is dot them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laikacosmo Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 The burst is incredible...best in the game, hands down. But if you nerf that, Operatives/Scoundrels need something else in return, because we're garbage in Huttball right now. Um... Pass? The game is about team work, not fancy skills that cheapen the sport. Oh, and yeah, balancing a class around Huttball = lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuari Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Honestly, the only thing scoundrels / ops are good for is gibbing lowbies, anyone with any pvp gear will just break the opening stun and knock them away or heal through their entire burst with 1 biochem medpack / pvp healing consumable. get level 50, get some gear, laugh at how useless scoundrels / ops are Considering I'm a somewhat decently geared 50... now I can maybe see tanks having an easier time of it since most of the damage is kinetic and when you get a few good shield blocks in... otherwise? Bye bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevvy Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Please tell me you're the Mesk with the butterfly tattoo that played on Archimonde. Lulz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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