Why is the PvP community so hostile?

[Eshvara]

Nope, that's the only way I know. I just said I doubted Bioware would do that and stated my reasons why they wouldn't. Seeing as the only "content" we have for months is to speed up PvP queues I just don't see them doing the best thing for players here.

 

Having no queues pop isn't what's best for "all" players. It may be for you and for others. But it certainly isn't for me. Like you, I don't want to play with the rude either, but I do actually want to play.

Unfortunately due to population, we don't have the luxury to implement the idea to combat this by not having those on ignore party with you.

 

One day were crying for merges,(Speaking in general) and then another day we want something like this to make queues pop even slower? I dont understand.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Eshvara

[Asmodesu]

Having no queues pop isn't what's best for "all" players. It may be for you and for others. But it certainly isn't for me. Like you, I don't want to play with the rude either, but I do actually want to play.

Unfortunately due to population, we don't have the luxury to implement the idea to combat this by not having those on ignore party with you.

 

One day were crying for merges,(Speaking in general) and then another day we want something like this to make queues pop even slower? I dont understand.

 

I only meant it "would be best for players here" aka this thread that are having issues with harassment in PvP, never said it was best for all. And I pointed out that it would not happen anyway and why I thought it wouldn't which was your argument against me here, I already know as I mention that exactly in most of my posts in this thread! xD

 

I want to play PvP again actively so much, but every single time I go in I'm flooded with having to listen to myself or someone else in the match get insulted and harassed in the chat so I hide the chat and that's not good for PvP calls etc but it's my only way to get away from the crap. Until it gets properly moderated and reports quickly responded to (which even this is getting less people in queue but there's very few ways to get rid of having to see that behaviour) it's going to get even worse if that's even possible as less players play.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Asmodesu

[Eshvara]

I only meant it "would be best for players here" aka this thread that are having issues with harassment in PvP, never said it was best for all. And I pointed out that it would not happen anyway and why I thought it wouldn't which was your argument against me here, I already know as I mention that exactly in most of my posts in this thread! xD

 

I want to play PvP again actively so much, but every single time I go in I'm flooded with having to listen to myself or someone else in the match get insulted and harassed in the chat so I hide the chat and that's not good for PvP calls etc but it's my only way to get away from the crap. Until it gets properly moderated and reports quickly responded to (which even this is getting less people in queue but there's very few ways to get rid of having to see that behaviour) it's going to get even worse if that's even possible as less players play.

 

Well no, but when you say, "They don't want to do what's best for the players" to me at least, it kind of seems like you meant it in a general sense, and as long as they are not, they are ignoring what the players want. But it could just be me nitpicking. While there are rude people in PvP on all sorts of level, I personally haven't been harassed in game myself due to play style, but I have seen it happen. I do agree that the moderation is pretty poor here at the moment and has been for a while, but I do wonder just how much better it would be for the players to remove people on their ignore list from being able to queue with them.

[casirabit]

I didn't miss the point. If you read my earlier reply you'll see I said I don't get offended by it. It comes with the territory.

PvP comes with it's own learning curve. Not just skill but skin thickness too. It's not for everyone. Blow off the rudeness, but learn from the mistakes.

 

And what good is it when after the match they are still sending you messages about the match? While you are pvping sure but be sure to explain what you did wrong, but after the match is over, don't be an *** and throw a temper fit after the match and keep sending messages. Let it go and move on .

[Asmodesu]

Well no, but when you say, "They don't want to do what's best for the players" to me at least, it kind of seems like you meant it in a general sense, and as long as they are not, they are ignoring what the players want. But it could just be me nitpicking. While there are rude people in PvP on all sorts of level, I personally haven't been harassed in game myself due to play style, but I have seen it happen. I do agree that the moderation is pretty poor here at the moment and has been for a while, but I do wonder just how much better it would be for the players to remove people on their ignore list from being able to queue with them.

 

I worded something poorly, no need to jump down my throat about it. At least I clarified when you brought it up.

[Eshvara]

I worded something poorly, no need to jump down my throat about it. At least I clarified when you brought it up.

 

I'm not sure how I'm jumping down your throat about it, I'm just trying to understand what exactly it was what you were trying to say. and yes you did clarify after I commented on your post, which is great. I thought we were just having a civil discussion like others in this thread are having. Considering we talk to each other on a daily basis about all sorts of stuff in private, I kind of find it it sad that you feel some kind of hostility from me, as I have no reason to do so. (Assuming I'm interpreting your reply correctly)

 

So for me at least, your reply, kind of came out of the blue. But alright, I understand.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Eshvara

[Storm-Cutter]

Never really had a problem with other players. - Unless I've right royally messed up.

 

Maybe it's an EU thing where people are a bit more tolerant. - IDK.

 

OTOH If you wanna cut down on the hostility, then you need to try your hardest , know your class inside-out and make sure you are at least trying to get geared up.

But the other thing is to learn humility and apologise when you mess up - and dish out some praise when your team or other team-mates do a good job.

 

People only usually get toxic when they see others throwing the game away by over extending, not answering calls or not contributing. - So avoid those things and it'll be a smoother ride.

 

GL

[TrixxieTriss]

First I'll just say I'm not talking about every PvP player out there, I've run into quite a bit of decent folk who don't give you flak so long as you're trying.

 

However, it seems the more vocal players tend to be incredibly more hostile, especially to people who don't play PvP unless they have to. I suck at PvP, I'll say that right now. I play the objective as best as I can but 9/10 I'll lose whatever battle I get into. I'm a story player and the only time I get into PvP is either when the story calls for it (i.e Trooper companion requires 20 warzone matches) or when it's a conquest objective. I don't care about what gear I have or if it's BiS, so long as it gets me through the content I run then I'm fine and I mainly focus on a rotation that fits how I play and not the "best" way to play the class I am. Yet when I make a mistake like not using a DCD at the exact time I was supposed to or not attacking the right person in a group of 5 enemies I get chewed out for it. I usually respond with "Sorry, I don't play much PvP." and that only seems to set them off even more and they'll go on about not joining the queue if I don't know how to play or start throwing insults. Normally I just ignore that player and move on but it seems that recently there has been a large increase in the number of hostile PvP players I've been coming across. I understand it sucks to lose, I understand that people should want to win when they play competitively but does telling people to stay out and calling them names actually solve anything?

 

This is all unranked as well so it's not like it's THAT big a deal. I don't know. I just lost any interest in PvP now and if there ever was a time that I'd actually want to invest myself into it, I think these recent weeks have just made me give up on that idea as a whole.

 

It’s because elitists and big mouths are always the loudest, so they make it seem like the whole community is like that,

You’ll usually find these are the same people in general chat on the fleet arguing and trying to troll people.

 

But, you do need to be sensitive to players who don’t play ranked and take regs seriously. Just because it’s not ranked, doesn’t mean people aren’t competitive and they want people to give it their all. Which sadly, a lot of people don’t. All this does is add fuel to the fire.

 

There is this attitude that regs don’t matter, so people don’t play to win, they play to get the best numbers on the board. This is extremely frustrating to those people who play to win and do take it seriously. Objective pvpers have zero outlet for their form of pvp since 8 man ranked was removed in favour of arena. Many players hated the change and left the game, while others who stayed have been relegated to playing regs or playing a format they dislike.

Regs do matter to a vast portion of the pvp community, saying it doesn’t only inflames people to yell more.

 

If, and I’m only saying if, you are a player who wasn’t trying to play to win, ie, playing objectives, calling incs, responding to incs or listening to better players give direction, then yes, you will often be the target of player’s rage.

This is no different than if you went into an operation and didn’t listen to the raid leader and just kept wiping the group. At least in those situations there is an option to remove the offending player or stop them coming into the same operation with you. This isn’t an option in pvp and is a constant frustration if you keep getting grouped with these people. So frustrations boil over. It not fun and it’s not right, but that is a large part of it.

 

I think if we still had a form of 8 man ranked, you would see less aggression in regs.

 

We all had to start pvping somewhere and at some point we were all new and making mistake or weren’t very good. The difference is most of us learnt to pvp in lowbies and Mids. We didn’t just jump into end game pvp to learn, which is what lvl 70 is. Sadly, this isn’t an option for most people who even want to learn in lowbies and Mids because it doesn’t pop.

Bioware need to incentivise people to play and learn in those brackets instead of lvl 70 pvp. As you said, you only pvp because Bioware make you if you want certain rewards or items. That’s an incentive. This is the sort of approach Bioware need to get people into lower brackets to learn. Until then, people will jump into end game pvp and have bad experiences and quit.

 

Bioware, please help make pvp more fun for everyone. Add incentives to the lowers teirs so people can learn and have a good experience. This will get more people to pvp and stay. It will also improve the quality of end game pvp and hopefully reduce some player frustration and rage.

[TrixxieTriss]

Yeah... if more people would step up when they see this sort of thing and put a stop to it.... eventually... there would be very little of it in PvP encounters. People not doing so... just enables the bullies with a false sense of acceptance of their behaviors.

 

You also have situations where you are trying to communicate to give advice or directions or in some cases just calling for help at a node and you get people yell at you for communicating.

 

Here is an example.

I’m guarding solo, see 3 guys coming and call west 3. I watch my map and most of my team is death matching mid (which we don’t hold), when we actually have both east and west. I can see the other team is stalling them with 2 healers and nothing is dying, so it’s just a big parsing exercise at mid to get numbers.

I’m still calling west 3 and still no one comes. I then start using capitals incase normal type isn’t getting their attention. WEST 3, WEST 3, WEST 3.... at that point I’m nearly dead trying to hold 3 guys up while I wait for someone to come help, Next thing I’m being told to shhhh or s*fu or worse.

I’ve been abused for even trying to help or offer advice to people privately so that I don’t put the spot light on them. Anything from gearing to offering some survival advice to people has had me abused.

 

Sadly, lots of those people who do that aren’t pvpers. A lot of them are people who are “encouraged” by Bioware to play pvp for decorations, mats or companions.

I’ve been abused for offering more advanced tactics, I’ve been abused because I use more advanaced tactics that my team of noobs don’t understand yet, I’ve even been abused for asking the person who capped a node to go back and guard after they run off and leave it undefended... some of the time I get told by the person to shut up and go do it myself.

9/10 times these aren’t pvpers who are doing that. They are people playing pvp because Bioware apparently “force” them too.

 

It really goes both ways. People are hostile and are bullies in pvp and it’s not always the pvpers who are doing it. Bullies are everywhere in this game. On the fleet, LFG stuff like operations, flash points and pvp.

It doesn’t end there either. After someone starts to bully you they will often start doing so in PMs as well. No one sees this and you can only put them on ignore. But some are even more extreme and will swap alts just so they can continue.

I agree with Flop, this game has a lot of disrespectful people in it. More than I used to see in WoW when I played it. I dont know what it is about swtor, but it certainly attracts a lot of nasty people.

 

You know, after a while, the trolling, the abuse and bad attitudes wear you down and you just stay quiet. Even defending people in a match only makes you a target. I’m sure lots of people feel like they can speak up for fear of being the bullies next target.

[TrixxieTriss]

Several reasons.

 

1. Every community has hostile members. You think story community doesn't? Welcome back to these very forums next time Arcann fans and Arcann haters have a go at each other. It's nasty.

 

2. Pvp is a competitive play style, people are feeling some adrenaline rush, and when someone screws up, emotions might be running high and someone might say something they didn't mean to say. It's annoying when you're doing well, just won a 1vs2, killed that pesky enemy healer...and then you notice the offnode got taken because the guard decided guarding is boring and wandered off. And really, I don't think I've ever seen anyone being shouted at for not using a particular dcd at the right time. Maybe you're on a different server, maybe times have changed? I haven't done much max level pvp lately.

 

3. Unranked is often the only endgame pvp there is. Loads of people don't like arenas, and ranked is nothing but arenas. In addition, ranked is often simply not popping, which means you're playing unranked or you're not playing pvp. So they're stuck with unranked, with people who don't play much pvp, and get frustrated. Especially when the matchmaking fails and they end up with loads of people with no experience and gear, against people who have both the experience and the gear. Imagine yourself being forced to do story content in group only, and every time someone wanted to skip the cutscenes, everyone was forced to skip them. At some point, you'd probably get annoyed at the people skipping the cutscenes even though it's not really their fault the system is imperfect.

 

4. No offense, but you sound like someone who's not that interested in learning and trying to get better. Using a rotation that fits your play style is fine...if your rotation is still solid and, even if not optimal, at least gets quite a bit of damage/healing to done. However, if you're constantly using a rotation that does weak damage, someone tries to give you advise on how to get better, and you're answering with "I use whatever rotation I want", is it any wonder the person trying to give advise gets annoyed?

 

Anyway, if you enjoy pvp and want to try it again, roll a new alt and try lowbie/midbie. No one gives a **** about your gear there, most of the people don't know what they're doing and if someone gives you hard time for not being that good at pvp, you can just point out that "it's lowbie, what did you expect?".

 

I wish I’d read your reply before my post. This pretty match sums up what I was trying to say.

[TrixxieTriss]

Sorry skimmed that bit, yeah I agree but they highly doubt they will do that because they're trying to get queues to pop quicker now. lol. and ignore hurts both ignored and ignoree in that regard (queues) if there's enough of it going on.

 

Queue pops are Bioware holy grail. More so than pvp quality or fun. It has been this way since launch. It how they measure the success of pvp. For them, the faster pops mean pvp is vibrant

Edited June 19, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

Having no queues pop isn't what's best for "all" players. It may be for you and for others. But it certainly isn't for me. Like you, I don't want to play with the rude either, but I do actually want to play.

Unfortunately due to population, we don't have the luxury to implement the idea to combat this by not having those on ignore party with you.

 

One day were crying for merges,(Speaking in general) and then another day we want something like this to make queues pop even slower? I dont understand.

 

But when we did have a much larger population many, many years ago and this was suggested, Bioware insisted they couldn’t do it because it would affect pop times. Which in hind sight, you can see how ridiculous that reason was because we now have 100th the pvp population we had back then and pops are still fine at lvl 70 in the middle of prime time.

 

Theyve used the same “queue pop” argument since launch for not allowing people to choose which maps they want to play.

Queue pops are important, but Bioware always use that as a reason for not doing something that they don’t want to do. It often has nothing to do with queue pops, it’s more likely they can’t be bothered or they don’t have the money to do it.

I’m going with the first reason, I just dont think they cared back then and now it’s too late because there aren’t enough people.

[merovejec]

So every time a player's expectations are not met in this game, you're saying we're expected to rage?

Fail to complete an op. Rage about it?

Can't get past a mob on veteran mode in an otherwise simple flashpoint. Rage about it?

Can't kill a boss mob for lack of knowing the mechanics. Rage about it?

Fall of a cliff on Hoth rather than traverse its wilderness without incident. Rage about it?

 

Sadly that's how it seems to be

[kodrac]

Let it go and move on .

 

Exactly.

[Sarova]

You just described every sub community in every MMO. It's not unique to the PvP community. Why is the raid community so hostile? Why is the RP community so hostile? You only single out PvP because it's something you're not interested in. This "complaint" is an entirely selfish view.

^Here's your answer OP. You get people who think they are entitled to bully/harass/be hostile to players in every setting, usually for no valid reason. Personally I find the raid community to be the most hostile so I stay out of raid groups in swtor unless I'm specifically invited to one for fun. PvP can be frustrating due to the imbalance and people tend to take out their frustrations on just about everyone. Ignore and move on.

[devilkat]

Having no queues pop isn't what's best for "all" players. It may be for you and for others. But it certainly isn't for me. Like you, I don't want to play with the rude either, but I do actually want to play.

Unfortunately due to population, we don't have the luxury to implement the idea to combat this by not having those on ignore party with you.

 

One day were crying for merges,(Speaking in general) and then another day we want something like this to make queues pop even slower? I dont understand.

 

On the other hand, blocking the really bad, toxic players may incentivize those who have never done PVP or who have left because of the toxic players, to give it a go. I've never done it, but I'd be willing to try some if I was reasonably sure that I wouldn't be kicked or berated during and after the match for a simple lack of experience. I'm more than willing to learn, but there's a curve and not everyone understands that.

[TrixxieTriss]

On the other hand, blocking the really bad, toxic players may incentivize those who have never done PVP or who have left because of the toxic players, to give it a go. I've never done it, but I'd be willing to try some if I was reasonably sure that I wouldn't be kicked or berated during and after the match for a simple lack of experience. I'm more than willing to learn, but there's a curve and not everyone understands that.

 

You won’t get kicked, it’s not like pve where operation leaders can organise that. Its nearly impossible to kick people.

 

If you want to give it a go, start a new Alt and take it into pvp around lvl 20. Learn to pvp in a relaxed and more forgiving environment.

[Eshvara]

You won’t get kicked, it’s not like pve where operation leaders can organise that. Its nearly impossible to kick people.

 

If you want to give it a go, start a new Alt and take it into pvp around lvl 20. Learn to pvp in a relaxed and more forgiving environment.

 

While fun at times, I can't say I found lowbie PvP a great way to learn. You're lacking so much core skills and talents, people hardly perform and it's often just frustrating. That's my experience anyway. When I PvP, I take my performance seriously and in lowbie PvP that's a whole lot harder.

I don't lash out or belittle people for playing bad or not knowing what to do, but it does deter me from bothering with lowbie PvP, even if the concept is fun.

 

But yeah, that's me.👀

[Sundown]

On the other hand, blocking the really bad, toxic players may incentivize those who have never done PVP or who have left because of the toxic players, to give it a go. I've never done it, but I'd be willing to try some if I was reasonably sure that I wouldn't be kicked or berated during and after the match for a simple lack of experience. I'm more than willing to learn, but there's a curve and not everyone understands that.

So basically: you have never set foot into a warzone and hesitate to do it simply because of what you hear or fear?

 

I mean: I have been playing this game for ages, I have done my fair share of PvP, and truth be told: I am mediocre at best. But I honestly can't remember having been harrassed ever. Not even once? There is some shouting, there is some swearing directed at the team in general or individuals for whatever reason, but I personally was never attacked via whisper or similar.

 

So what is holding you off? Give it a go, it's a blast.

[Seireeni]

While fun at times, I can't say I found lowbie PvP a great way to learn. You're lacking so much core skills and talents, people hardly perform and it's often just frustrating. That's my experience anyway. When I PvP, I take my performance seriously and in lowbie PvP that's a whole lot harder.

I don't lash out or belittle people for playing bad or not knowing what to do, but it does deter me from bothering with lowbie PvP, even if the concept is fun.

 

But yeah, that's me.👀

 

It's kind of the point that you're lacking those core skills and talents. There are so many things to remember when playing pvp, and learning them all at once is pretty damn tough. In fact, partly inspired by this thread (and Kodrac's comments regarding gear), I gave a try at max level pvp with my madness sorc and scrapper scoundrel. My sorc attempts are....acceptable I suppose, as I've done quite a bit of ops and stuff with that alt, but my scrapper... Let's not talk about my scrapper. It's been too long since I last played scrapper, the skills are different, enemy skills are different, nothing feels familiar.

 

I googled a guide and read through it, but remembering all that (and not accidentally doing what I would have done years ago) takes a lot of effort, and that's brain capacity I'm not using to count enemies, figure out where I'm supposed to be in the warzone or even to determine what kind of tactics I'm supposed to use against the class I'm facing. More often than not, as soon as I started to wonder if the class I'm facing has cc immunity or when they're likely to use their escapes so I can stun them before they do, I screw up my rotation or accidentally stop moving or something stupid like that. I can't focus on everything at the same time.

 

So, I scrolled through my (sizeable) list of alts and picked a lowbie scrapper and spent last evening doing warzones with that character. Is it frustrating that I have no gap closers whatsoever? Yes. But in the other hand, I have only a couple of skills I didn't have back when I did max level pvp with scrapper, and I'm learning to use them far more effectively. Is it annoying when no one else in your team seems to know what they're doing? Yeah, but in the other hand, at the end of it you get the scoreboard, see you have both top damage and top objectives, and then you can feel smug about it.

[Eshvara]

It's kind of the point that you're lacking those core skills and talents. There are so many things to remember when playing pvp, and learning them all at once is pretty damn tough. In fact, partly inspired by this thread (and Kodrac's comments regarding gear), I gave a try at max level pvp with my madness sorc and scrapper scoundrel. My sorc attempts are....acceptable I suppose, as I've done quite a bit of ops and stuff with that alt, but my scrapper... Let's not talk about my scrapper. It's been too long since I last played scrapper, the skills are different, enemy skills are different, nothing feels familiar.

 

I googled a guide and read through it, but remembering all that (and not accidentally doing what I would have done years ago) takes a lot of effort, and that's brain capacity I'm not using to count enemies, figure out where I'm supposed to be in the warzone or even to determine what kind of tactics I'm supposed to use against the class I'm facing. More often than not, as soon as I started to wonder if the class I'm facing has cc immunity or when they're likely to use their escapes so I can stun them before they do, I screw up my rotation or accidentally stop moving or something stupid like that. I can't focus on everything at the same time.

 

So, I scrolled through my (sizeable) list of alts and picked a lowbie scrapper and spent last evening doing warzones with that character. Is it frustrating that I have no gap closers whatsoever? Yes. But in the other hand, I have only a couple of skills I didn't have back when I did max level pvp with scrapper, and I'm learning to use them far more effectively. Is it annoying when no one else in your team seems to know what they're doing? Yeah, but in the other hand, at the end of it you get the scoreboard, see you have both top damage and top objectives, and then you can feel smug about it.

 

I get what you're saying, and yes there's a lot to learn, but when I do have to get familiar with a class, I'm fine doing it through PvE as I level. I don't actually have to go out of my way to go to a lowbie warzone for that. As someone who has been playing mmo's for quite a while, both in PvP and PvE, I honestly don't feel like bothering with low level warzones, not in swtor at least. I'm also not really a fan of the bracket system that's currently going on. Bolster isn't that much of a help when you have a few skills and others have a whole lot more.

 

If people do want to go to warzones to learn how to PvP, that's great, but I don't see myself doing the same or wanting to participate, it's just not entertaining to me and I'm not the best with patience, unfortunately!

[Seireeni]

I get what you're saying, and yes there's a lot to learn, but when I do have to get familiar with a class, I'm fine doing it through PvE as I level. I don't actually have to go out of my way to go to a lowbie warzone for that. As someone who has been playing mmo's for quite a while, both in PvP and PvE, I honestly don't feel like bothering with low level warzones, not in swtor at least. I'm also not really a fan of the bracket system that's currently going on. Bolster isn't that much of a help when you have a few skills and others have a whole lot more.

 

If people do want to go to warzones to learn how to PvP, that's great, but I don't see myself doing the same or wanting to participate, it's just not entertaining to me and I'm not the best with patience, unfortunately!

 

Fair enough. I don't feel I learn anything by leveling in swtor -- the enemies die if I look at them funny and there's no reason to i.e. stun them, ever.

[Eshvara]

Fair enough. I don't feel I learn anything by leveling in swtor -- the enemies die if I look at them funny and there's no reason to i.e. stun them, ever.

 

Perhaps not, being dead in PvP in a few seconds on a level 15 against others that are much higher hasn't helped me either, or being the one that's higher and killing someone that's much lower, then there's still the terrible class balance at lower levels, that more or less, gets a bit better once you're max. In my experience anyway.

There's still going to be people learning at end game PvP, I'm fine with that! But lowbie PvP is just a nah.

[merovejec]

Fair enough. I don't feel I learn anything by leveling in swtor -- the enemies die if I look at them funny and there's no reason to i.e. stun them, ever.

 

Well go try Eternal Championship

[Eshvara]

Well go try Eternal Championship

 

Without dying!! Though in all seriousness, there is of course a difference between PvP and PvE when it comes to learning, I do think that knowing how to PvP does improve your PvE skills as well, but the other way around not necessarily.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Eshvara