Why is the PvP community so hostile?

[merovejec]

Without dying!! Though in all seriousness, there is of course a difference between PvP and PvE when it comes to learning, I do think that knowing how to PvP does improve your PvE skills as well, but the other way around not necessarily.

 

EC is pretty much the only challenge you have in PVE for a single player. Besides that there is only Star Fortress cause there is no bolster in it and Vt/MM Chapters of KOTFE or KOTET. Everything else is just too easy and wont teach you anything.

 

In EC you have to think, interrupt, stun, cc and use many tricks and abilities. Also you have to gear accordingly so you will be able to do damage. As for PVP yes, PVE is different, but in those mentioned parts of PVE you will at least need to use your full potential.

[Eshvara]

EC is pretty much the only challenge you have in PVE for a single player. Besides that there is only Star Fortress cause there is no bolster in it and Vt/MM Chapters of KOTFE or KOTET. Everything else is just too easy and wont teach you anything.

 

In EC you have to think, interrupt, stun, cc and use many tricks and abilities. Also you have to gear accordingly so you will be able to do damage. As for PVP yes, PVE is different, but in those mentioned parts of PVE you will at least need to use your full potential.

 

Hard mode chapters are pretty challenging!

[Seireeni]

Well go try Eternal Championship

 

I've done it on several characters. ^^ Only missing jedi knight from completing it with all classes, and that's because I haven't figured out a 100% foolproof method of completing it with a pure dps class, my only max level JK is a sentinel and I kind of suck at sentinel. But I completed it on my scrapper by kiting and offhealing a lot, and while that might help me boost my survivability in pvp, it really does not help me with remembering all my slows, roots and stuns or not messing up my rotation.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Without dying!! Though in all seriousness, there is of course a difference between PvP and PvE when it comes to learning, I do think that knowing how to PvP does improve your PvE skills as well, but the other way around not necessarily.

 

I started as a progression raider and didn't really get into PVP until the end of 4.0. 5.0 absoulutely destroyed HM/NiM progression raiding for quite a while and many groups disbanded and went to other games so it was at that point that I changed from a progression raider to a PVPer exclusively.

 

I mostly agree with your assement [although I can't speak about going from PVP to raiding], but I agree that raiding doesn't really make you have an edge up in PVP. Alot of pvpers think of raiding as easy and scripted and that they are better players than raiders, but that's simply not the case. The hardest content in this game that requires the most of a player is without question some of NiM operations [DF/DP NiM, SnV NiM [which is not quite as bad as DF/DP] TOS and Ravagers HM are closer to NiM in several of the fights than other HM operations. There's nothing more difficult than DF/DP NiM imo and obviously Revan HM. Even the very best Pvpers who than went to those fights would would be the absolute worst players in the group not because they aren't skilled players but because they simply would have no clue how to handle mechanics that extreme. NiM have one shots, enrage timers which are instant wipes, every dies in 1 second. They would be good at the movement, but their dps would be terrible because PVPers don't work with optimal rotations and they don't have DPS checks. The only thing that raiding helps with when switching to PVP is there DPS is stronger. They have had to learn how move when being forced to by mechanics doing things the mechanics demand all while keeping an optimal rotation going for the hardest checks and that's very difficult at time because it isn't always about you sometimes and it isnt always the same. Raiders have much stronger DPS than pvpers. Most PVPers dont even know the DPS they are doing. Total damage isn't DPS and the DPS stat you see at the end of wzs when you have over total damage is only accounting for the very last combat state you enters before the WZ ended. So if you died a minute before the end and than respawned and fought for those other 30 seconds the DPS listed is only for those 30 seconds.

 

DPS is central to raider mentality and it is something that is constantly being measured and show in the parsing program the entire time you are fighting and they have to be aware of the what their DPS is, PVPers never need to know what their DPS is at the moment and they can't know unless they are running a parsing program while in WZ which works just as effectively in PVP and as in PVE. Pvpers just dont have the need for such awareness of DPS. Total damage is a good indication of overall performance and persons skill over all, it's just not preicise at all but it doesn't need to me so no biggie.

 

Playing both makes you more well rounded. Overall I would say PVPers are more well rounded than PVEers. Raiders are just stronger in DPS than PVPers and that's not an insult, because like I said, PVPers don't need to do optimal DPS so they don't learn to maximize their DPS and you can't learn how to do that just doing PVP, it's not a natural state it's a learned state. Dueling PVPers would have it all over raiders,

 

You don't find the kind of toxicity in raiding that you do in PVP thought because in raiding everyone else there is on your side so its an "us" against it, as opposed to "us" vs other players who are out enemies. Raiders need each other and they are always just helpful to others. Very strong team sense and comrade in raiding. A raid team member will never try and kill you, can't say that in PVP heh

 

No such thing as bad experience, experience will always be teaching you things whether you realize it or not.

Edited June 20, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[casirabit]

On the other hand, blocking the really bad, toxic players may incentivize those who have never done PVP or who have left because of the toxic players, to give it a go. I've never done it, but I'd be willing to try some if I was reasonably sure that I wouldn't be kicked or berated during and after the match for a simple lack of experience. I'm more than willing to learn, but there's a curve and not everyone understands that.

 

I would suggest you go with a friend/guild or someone you know has your back for the first few times. The few times I have pvp I went with my boyfriend (who likes to pvp) and he has the habit when someone started yelling at my healing he would know (not sure how) that they were not that great at what they were doing and told them to stop yelling and pay attention to what they were supposed to be doing. It kind of made it a little bit easier but I am still not that much of a fan of pvp but will do it occasionally. Just be warned if you are a healer, you are targeted. (lol) and my boyfriend told me the reason I got targeted so much later is I was actually doing better than I did when I started lol.

[casirabit]

Without dying!! Though in all seriousness, there is of course a difference between PvP and PvE when it comes to learning, I do think that knowing how to PvP does improve your PvE skills as well, but the other way around not necessarily.

 

Depends on the content you play. Easy stuff maybe not but doing the harder content not necessarily as you need to know your mechanics and that is not something taught in pvp. I am at best a casual pvp player but in the hard content in pve I do quite well but then again that is something I am used to playing. I even tend to pay attention to the mechanics in solo flashpoints I am doing and half the time I don't use the "God Mode" droid on those as I really don't need it.

[Seireeni]

You don't find the kind of toxicity in raiding that you do in PVP thought because in raiding everyone else there is on your side so its an "us" against it, as opposed to "us" vs other players who are out enemies. Raiders need each other and they are always just helpful to others. Very strong team sense and comrade in raiding. A raid team member will never try and kill you, can't say that in PVP heh

 

I see you don't do pug raiding.

[Xina_LA]

It is not reasonable to tell someone, "Hey, you don't like PvP, so you're only going to go 10 times to unlock your toy. Now, spend a lot of time gearing up and watching videos on how to play every PvP area you might get randomly sent to. Learn all the abbreviations and acronyms people will use in chat. Memorize all that. Now you're allowed to slog through 10 matches that you won't enjoy, even if you win, just to get your toy. Otherwise, we're going to heap abuse upon you, even after you leave the match, and consider that justified because you didn't try hard enough."

 

Now, if the same name popped up in PvP day after day, week after week, and they were making everybody miserable, perhaps that would be different.

 

If you jump on somebody and they say, "Hey sorry, I'm doing my best but I'm just here a couple more matches to complete this objective, and then I'll be out of your hair." it's time to complain to the devs, not the player. They didn't set the PvP requirement on unlocking decorations, companions, and such.

[Seireeni]

It is not reasonable to tell someone, "Hey, you don't like PvP, so you're only going to go 10 times to unlock your toy. Now, spend a lot of time gearing up and watching videos on how to play every PvP area you might get randomly sent to. Learn all the abbreviations and acronyms people will use in chat. Memorize all that. Now you're allowed to slog through 10 matches that you won't enjoy, even if you win, just to get your toy. Otherwise, we're going to heap abuse upon you, even after you leave the match, and consider that justified because you didn't try hard enough."

 

Now, if the same name popped up in PvP day after day, week after week, and they were making everybody miserable, perhaps that would be different.

 

If you jump on somebody and they say, "Hey sorry, I'm doing my best but I'm just here a couple more matches to complete this objective, and then I'll be out of your hair." it's time to complain to the devs, not the player. They didn't set the PvP requirement on unlocking decorations, companions, and such.

 

In all fairness... Nothing forces you to get those decorations and companions.

[Lhancelot]

It is not reasonable to tell someone, "Hey, you don't like PvP, so you're only going to go 10 times to unlock your toy. Now, spend a lot of time gearing up and watching videos on how to play every PvP area you might get randomly sent to. Learn all the abbreviations and acronyms people will use in chat. Memorize all that. Now you're allowed to slog through 10 matches that you won't enjoy, even if you win, just to get your toy. Otherwise, we're going to heap abuse upon you, even after you leave the match, and consider that justified because you didn't try hard enough."

 

Now, if the same name popped up in PvP day after day, week after week, and they were making everybody miserable, perhaps that would be different.

 

If you jump on somebody and they say, "Hey sorry, I'm doing my best but I'm just here a couple more matches to complete this objective, and then I'll be out of your hair." it's time to complain to the devs, not the player. They didn't set the PvP requirement on unlocking decorations, companions, and such.

 

That's why I don't go ballistic anymore in PVP when there are people playing with less skill than others.

 

It's the meta of swtor PVP and it's called "regs" for a reason; because regular players can queue and it's not considered elite competition it's open for everyone.

 

If a player gets mad about less than 236 geared people, or that people don't PVP up to their standards then they ought to blame the system.

 

Queue for group ranked if you are so elite, and showcase your awesome gearing/PVP prowess where the most skilled players PVP. Most of these guys that whine hardest are in premades anyway. I'd think they could easily hop into group ranked and smack everyone down with their gigantic epeens.

 

Anyway, in my opinion I don't find PVP here so toxic but I have played PVP games since EQ1 RZ/SZ. Guess I am desensitized to whining malcontents that cry when they lose and blame others.

 

As everyone has said just ignore it, or use it as motivation as I always do. I am not the best player, and I know that but I still enjoy PVP and won't let something an anonymous nerd tells me to dissuade me from doing what I like.

[Andryah]

I see you don't do pug raiding.

 

^^ The issue here is not raiding per se.. it's PuGing... regardless if it is PvP or PvE.

 

PuGing tends to attract the most antisocial of players with no loyalty or care for fellow group members.

 

PvP is toxic for it's own reasons, above and beyond PuGing.

 

So I would fully expect PvP PuGing to be the worst of the worst.

[Andryah]

If you jump on somebody and they say, "Hey sorry, I'm doing my best but I'm just here a couple more matches to complete this objective, and then I'll be out of your hair." it's time to complain to the devs, not the player. They didn't set the PvP requirement on unlocking decorations, companions, and such.

 

Yep. Every time the studio puts something behind a mandatory play-wall (be it PvP or PvE)... it gets regular players behind said play-wall bent out of shape... and said players need to take it up with the studio and stop ganking players that are simply following the minimum bread-crumbs needed to get what they seek.

[TrixxieTriss]

Perhaps not, being dead in PvP in a few seconds on a level 15 against others that are much higher hasn't helped me either, or being the one that's higher and killing someone that's much lower, then there's still the terrible class balance at lower levels, that more or less, gets a bit better once you're max. In my experience anyway.

There's still going to be people learning at end game PvP, I'm fine with that! But lowbie PvP is just a nah.

 

It’s learning to kill those lvl 39s while you’re lvl 15 that can make you into a better player. It teaches basic tactics and strategy. Learning the maps, learning to LoS and learning the basics of classes you are facing will translate into being a better pvper.

If you find lowbies too easy for that, then try it in Mids, which is a lot more challenging as a lvl 41vs lvl 69. If you can learn to be competitive in that situation, those skills transfer easily into lvl 70 and you will already be way ahead of the curve vs people who just jump into lvl 70 to learn.

That’s the way pvp was meant to be learnt in this game and it’s why end game quality is such rubbish now because people are trying to learn how to keybind or know how a map works or know what half their abilities do because they never need them in Pve. I had to try and explain LoS to a guy in full 248+236 Augmented gear because he didn’t understand because he’d never needed to learn it in a pve environment.

There are lots of tricks you can pick up playing lowbies or Mids if you haven’t played a tonne of pvp before,

[alexsamma]

I feel like people rage at the individuals like the OP for 1 of 3 reasons:

 

1: They enjoy putting people down

2: They hate losing and this is how they vent

3: They're frustrated that people like the OP have no consideration for other individuals and that Bioware gives them little/no methods to deal with people like the OP in warzones.

 

While raging, regardless of the rational, is probably not the healthiest way to handle this situation I have to admit that I find myself fitting into category 3 very often as of late; when this happens I feel like I ultimately have two choices:

 

1: Stop playing the game

2: Talk to the person

 

Not playing a game that I enjoy because of the actions of other players, and the in-actions of the development studio, simply leads to more frustration.

 

Talking to the individual who is engaging in disruptive behavior often accomplishes nothing, after all they're usually there for a very selfish reason and they don't care about how their actions impact others.

 

It's challenging to feel pity for someone like the OP when the OP is fact being toxic by engaging in group activities that the OP is not prepared for and has little/no interest in attempting to pull his/her own weight in.

[Kirpputori]

im pretty sure all communtities in all games have hostile/toxic people, and also friendly people no need to generalize, my friend

[Asmodesu]

I see so many people in this thread are supporting harassment and saying "just get better at it and it stops", are those same people guilty of it and justifying it to themselves? news flash, it doesn't stop. Stop blaming those being harassed in and out of unranked warzones. You don't have all the information needed to justify that, just a lot of assumptions.

[Lhancelot]

I feel like people rage at the individuals like the OP for 1 of 3 reasons:

 

1: They enjoy putting people down

2: They hate losing and this is how they vent

3: They're frustrated that people like the OP have no consideration for other individuals and that Bioware gives them little/no methods to deal with people like the OP in warzones.

 

I think this is pretty accurate too. ^

 

Much of the "toxicity" is just someone venting, and having no other outlet available to themselves, or an inability to find another way to vent.

 

btw, HI Alex! Are you back from a break, or have you just been lurking for the past few months? I only recently seen you posting again! Good to see you here regardless. What server do you play now?

[Seireeni]

I see so many people in this thread are supporting harassment and saying "just get better at it and it stops", are those same people guilty of it and justifying it to themselves? news flash, it doesn't stop. Stop blaming those being harassed in and out of unranked warzones. You don't have all the information needed to justify that, just a lot of assumptions.

 

I don't know who you're referring to, but me (and many others) are not supporting harassment, but understanding why some players feel frustrated. Hardcore pvp players are forced to play with casuals who only pvp once a month. Yes, it's unreasonable to demand those casuals spend hours gearing up and reading guides just so they can do the occasional warzone. However, it's unreasonable to demand those hardcore pvp players are not allowed to be annoyed or frustrated. They have feelings too.

 

Understanding goes both ways -- and I say this as someone who, years ago, stopped occasional max level pvping mostly because people in the forums were quite...unpleasant to me when I admitted I didn't have that good gear. Why? Because I only did max level pvp maybe once a month and felt my gear was adequate for that. Back then I didn't feel people had the right to be upset with me, but now... I understand. I maintain my belief that someone who rarely does pvp should be allowed to be less skilled and less geared than those who do it a lot, but I get why someone could be upset by it.

 

I think, when talking about harassment in this context, we should first determine what we mean by harassment. I think it's, even if not pleasant, understandable if someone calls you dumb because you made a dumb mistake. It's also understandable if someone makes a sarcastic comment about it, or if someone declares the team hopeless because no one's playing objectives. it's not nice, but it's not harassment in my book. However, long rants about how terrible some player is, or continuous whispers after a match? That's just ridiculous and rude, and I'd like to think most pvp players agree with me here -- even if they relate to the frustration. My understanding ends there.

[DWho]

I see so many people in this thread are supporting harassment and saying "just get better at it and it stops", are those same people guilty of it and justifying it to themselves? news flash, it doesn't stop. Stop blaming those being harassed in and out of unranked warzones. You don't have all the information needed to justify that, just a lot of assumptions.

 

I would say that if you feel you are being harassed, use the harassment report button or file a harassment report through the in game system. That is the only way there is a chance of anything happening. It's not your responsibility to "grow a thicker skin" or "just ignore it". If the studio doesn't think it is harassment, they won't do anything, but if they see lots of complaints about the same people coming in from a broad spectrum of the player base, they will because of the implications (harassment is taken very seriously by most game companies). Coming to the forums and complaining about in game behavior is going to be ignored by the studio and likely to attract those same people harassing people in game to harass you here. It is a sad fact that game activities that have a lot of waiting involved (primarily PVP and GF raiding/flashpoints but some long respawn PVE content as well) have higher levels of toxicity than the general game population.

[BarbarikDave]

It's challenging to feel pity for someone like the OP when the OP is fact being toxic by engaging in group activities that the OP is not prepared for and has little/no interest in attempting to pull his/her own weight in.

 

I wasn't asking for pity. I was asking why the PvP community seems to have the highest amount of people that feel the need to harass someone. If you read some of my responses you would see some of the specifics I get into regarding it, I also elaborate a bit more on my preparedness and my weight pulling as well. It's not like I wasn't trying in the matches or I was way undergeared (didn't bother going in until I was 240). I actually took a lot of steps before I went in to actually prepare but since PvP isn't my main focus I wasn't going to divert hours and hours of my time and resources to it to be the absolute best ever. I gave enough to be considered sufficient for the average unranked match but I don't believe that should justify someone going and targeting me or anyone else for that matter with insults that extend beyond the match itself and into whispers afterwards, which seems to happen more frequently in PvP than anything else I've run.

 

I see so many people in this thread are supporting harassment and saying "just get better at it and it stops", are those same people guilty of it and justifying it to themselves? news flash, it doesn't stop. Stop blaming those being harassed in and out of unranked warzones. You don't have all the information needed to justify that, just a lot of assumptions.

 

Yeah I mean the whole point of this was to point out the harassment that you get from PvP players, which in my experience has been significantly more prevalent compared to pretty much everything else in the game outside of DK general chat. There is no justification for it. Thankfully there are more people condemning it over trying to justify it. So as I stated in the first line of my OP there are good people in PvP.

[Floplag]

I'm pretty sure people who harass others dont get to make up the definition of what harassment means for those being harassed. Just a thought, lol

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I see you don't do pug raiding.

 

Not for the last few years no. Before 5.0 dropped I had been in 2 different progression groups for about a year a peice, but first few years I pugged exclusively til I got into the 1st progression group.

 

There some toxicity in pugging like you said, but not like PVP, PVPers are just brutal. Pug Op people who piss each other after a few comments someone drops or gets kicked. No one get's kicked in PVP they just stay and flame for the entire match heh

 

Certainly possible that Op pugging has changed in the last few years, but it's worse than it was back then than so I might just be unaware of it now.

 

I enjoyed pug raiding a lot, I met a ton of people and a lot of them who are still in the game became friendly and I still know here and there today. It's a good way to network. That's how I got into my first progression group, one of their DPS couldn't make it and so they looked for a fill in and I saw them looking for a DPS on fleet, so I pugged with them and they invited me back a few times over the next few months when DPS couldn't make it and they needed fills in again. Another month after that and than they asked me I would join their raid team permanently. They didn't even make me have to join their guild because I told them I wasn't interested in being in a Guild so they made an exception for me. In fact that's the only reason I got into progression raiding, I was fine with pugging before that.

 

Ya never know what might be waiting for you just around the corner. =]

Edited June 20, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[SlimeyDoom]

PvP in any game is a lil toxic. Just do your best, OP. Everyone who's good at pvp now was awful at it when they first started. And whoever gave you a tough time should remember that unranked warzones are for casual playing

[Soljin]

PvP is always Toxic in every game... Its usually a few nasty characters that make it seem way worse than it really is.... Unless you played on Bria server in SWG in which case it was an entire faction that was the problem

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Not playing a game that I enjoy because of the actions of other players, and the in-actions of the development studio, simply leads to more frustration.

 

Talking to the individual who is engaging in disruptive behavior often accomplishes nothing, after all they're usually there for a very selfish reason and they don't care about how their actions impact others.

 

It's challenging to feel pity for someone like the OP when the OP is fact being toxic by engaging in group activities that the OP is not prepared for and has little/no interest in attempting to pull his/her own weight in.

 

So what you are essentially saying is that people who just start PVPing and are still learning are Toxic? How the hell else are the suppose to learn PVP without doing it? Through Osmosis?

 

Everyone sucks *** when they start PVPing. I sucked, you sucked, your boyfriend in the PVP forum sucked, every single person you have ever seen in PVP sucked for a good while before they learned the ropes. Effective PVP performance can only be learned by throwing yourself into the maelstrom of tons of people who are total dorks and think that being good at a video game makes them any less of a virgin or makes their stones any bigger.

 

I don't care how bad someone is at PVP. If they are just starting out /still learning but they are trying their best, I don't care how bad their best is, I'm not flaming him for it. In fact if I see that person trying in a few matches I might very well vote for him for having the stones to suck that bad and not giving up at getting better. They have every right to be there and that's the only place to be if you want to learn. Saying that someone who is not very good at something but who is trying learn and gain experience is wrong for doing so and that's toxic is a view point I'd think, that would require a level of stupidity to come to hold that would render the person unable to remember to breath enough to survive.

 

No where in his post he did I read anything that could lead any cognizant human being to a conclusion that he had ' little/no interest in attempting to pull his/her own weight in.' Which is something that scarcely requires more than breath to attempt.

 

Far as gear is concerned. There is this neat 'brand spanking new' add on they just came out with <sarcasm> called bolster, which means he is effectively PVPing in full 242 gear. [augs/set bonus not withstanding]. Gear does not make you good or bad at PVP. I did 3.6 mill in damage and came in first in a match on a clone I made with no augments and no 6 peice set bonus last week - https://ibb.co/g0J1h8 [There were 6 Juggs in there!!! ]

 

I was without question the worst PVPer that ever walked the face of the earth since the dawn of mankind when I started and it took a long time to see improvement, longer the most people I think. There is no end point in learning, only a beginning which is exactly where the OP is and he's been open about his abilities and even apologized for it. If he was on my team, I would've voted for him and not only would I not insult him I would a a patted him on the shoulder afterwards for manning up like he did. I've been full time PVPing like a year and half now out of the 6 years I've been playing the game, I'm in full 248 BIS gear augged to the brim and I still get my *** kicked half the time, if not more.

 

There's nothing wrong with striving for excellence even in activities intend for recreation. That's what hobbies are for. But there is something wrong about belittling someone public ally while they are trying to enjoy their recreation time who hasn't said a word except to say he was sorry that he wasn't better at it.

 

The OP didn't do one damn thing wrong. And than you wonder why PVP isn't more popular. We'd probably have twice the number of players playing PVP right now if it wasn't for all the rampant virginity trying to be made up for by A-O's who think that anyone could ever be intimidated or fearful of them by any stretch of the imagination. It's a friggen video game.

 

Given the choice between losing a match or insulting someone who did their best but wasn't very good and had the stones to apologize for his limited experience and abilities from the onset, but winning the match, I'd take losing the match every single time.

 

The only time you should be looking down your nose at someone is when you are helping them up.

Edited June 21, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx