Hi Charles and Keith! Any new information about conquest and 5.9?

[KendraP]

Yeah, he may as well have said: "Bloody hell, we made the changes WE want and if you don't like it, that is your fault" because that is exactly how it came across.

 

It was the same as Ben's "we think RNG is exciting, if you don't tough!" comment on the Command Crate livestream.

 

Hopefully, for the game, Keith's comments will have the same effect.

 

All The Best

 

The "RNG is exciting!" bit was indeed a terrible thing to say.

 

I think the issue is, they have good intentions then roll out a system thats buggy and been nerfed to hell. Then we get angry and don't really feel like commenting on the intentions but on how it inconviences us.

 

However it may sound, we pay for a service.

Edited April 26, 2018 by KendraP

[PorsaLindahl]

Yeah, he may as well have said: "Bloody hell, we made the changes WE want and if you don't like it, that is your fault" because that is exactly how it came across.

 

It was the same as Ben's "we think RNG is exciting, if you don't tough!" comment on the Command Crate livestream.

 

Hopefully, for the game, Keith's comments will have the same effect.

 

All The Best

 

I can understand your frustration as well because I share them, but you're acting like they've already dropped 5.9, and to be fair, they haven't made those changes yet.

 

Although they will come too late for a lot of people.

[TUXs]

Although they will come too late for a lot of people.

This is the worst part...rather than working on the mythical 6.0 expansion, now the Devs are wasting time on a system that wasn't broken...it's their "busy work" for 2018, just like tiny tweaks here and there to CXP was all of last year.

 

Aside from the new Operation, Keith has made this game LESS enjoyable...I can't express my disappointment in him enough.

[Zerileth]

Keith has made this game LESS enjoyable...I can't express my disappointment in him enough.

 

Is it Keith or EA? Are his hands tied? If we had the best producer in MMORPG History would he make a difference?

I mean, if Keith is being told by his bosses at EA to wind the game down or moving devs to Anthem what can he do?

 

Who knows anymore.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Zerileth

[KendraP]

Is it Keith or EA? Are his hands tied? If we had the best producer in MMORPG History would he make a difference?

I mean, if Keith is being told by his bosses at EA to wind the game down or moving devs to Anthem what can he do?

 

Who knows anymore.

 

Tinfoil hat moment much?

So long as the game is not losing money, is the only SW mmo around, and there arent any licensing issues, i dont see why swtor wouldnt stay around.

 

I see the point, however, and sincerly hope that EA is not forcing this god awful trend that started with GC. GC is tolerable noe, though. So Im hopeful conquest will be again eventually too.

Edited April 26, 2018 by KendraP

[Zerileth]

Tinfoil hat moment much?

 

Might want to look up the definition as it was just an example. I honestly don't think I care enough anymore to wear my tinfoil hat.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Zerileth

[Stellarcrusade]

This is the worst part...rather than working on the mythical 6.0 expansion, now the Devs are wasting time on a system that wasn't broken...it's their "busy work" for 2018, just like tiny tweaks here and there to CXP was all of last year.

Aside from the new Operation, Keith has made this game LESS enjoyable...I can't express my disappointment in him enough.

 

TUX is correct. Really under the guise of "fixing" the old system they made it and every other system worse (slower queue pops etc). And if development time is at a premium why design a new conquest system, just tweak the problems with the old system.

Problems with the old system:

1.) Sometimes the rewards didn't work. That sounds like a "you" problem, players always got the rewards albeit delayed. It may have been a waste of engineering time fixing that, but you could have fixed the old system or streamlined the fix.

CURRENT STATUS: FIXED

2.) Tiny/Small/Medium guilds could only compete for planets on a crafting week. Now those guilds have no chance any week, great job.

CURRENT STATUS: MADE MUCH WORSE

3.) A tiny number of the conquest goals were broken. Some of the current goals are broken now.

CURRENT STATUS: NO CHANGE

 

It is hard to list all of the OTHER things broken by the new system like the death of queues, people leaving and going inactive in droves and stuff.

 

My 2000 member "Conquest guild" has nothing to do now, majority has gone inactive, stopped subscribing or right out left. So now we are a patty-cake guild. Join up if you want to sit around and cycle through your favorite emotes to impress the other 2 people logged in.

[MikeCobalt]

Until the facts come out everything is BioWare, if its from higher up then that's different but for now the customers have no reason to look anywhere else. I would really really *Prefer to Believe its "Electronic Arts" putting the *Squeeze on BW to help Anthem But....with the saying "two sizeable teams one SWTOR and one Anthem" that rules out the "one small team" that has been reported in the articles and with nothing different said its the BioWare statement and the "Why isn't this fixed", "Why the Content Drought?" and "Its BioWare". Has anything *Ever been stated different? "If it doesn't get fixed > They didn't want to "and "If its slow > that sizeable team is going slow". I would really prefer to believe its E.A., but have no reason to. Edited April 27, 2018 by MikeCobalt

[WYMAS]

TUX is correct. Really under the guise of "fixing" the old system they made it and every other system worse (slower queue pops etc). And if development time is at a premium why design a new conquest system, just tweak the problems with the old system.

Problems with the old system:

1.) Sometimes the rewards didn't work. That sounds like a "you" problem, players always got the rewards albeit delayed. It may have been a waste of engineering time fixing that, but you could have fixed the old system or streamlined the fix.

CURRENT STATUS: FIXED

2.) Tiny/Small/Medium guilds could only compete for planets on a crafting week. Now those guilds have no chance any week, great job.

CURRENT STATUS: MADE MUCH WORSE

3.) A tiny number of the conquest goals were broken. Some of the current goals are broken now.

 

CURRENT STATUS: NO CHANGE

 

It is hard to list all of the OTHER things broken by the new system like the death of queues, people leaving and going inactive in droves and stuff.

 

My 2000 member "Conquest guild" has nothing to do now, majority has gone inactive, stopped subscribing or right out left. So now we are a patty-cake guild. Join up if you want to sit around and cycle through your favorite emotes to impress the other 2 people logged in.

You Guy's Are So Right!

It's Sad Really The Best The "Team" Can Do Is Break What Ain't Broke!

Makes Me Ponder? Mayhaps That's Thier Job?

[peter_plankskull]

Is it Keith or EA? Are his hands tied? If we had the best producer in MMORPG History would he make a difference?

I mean, if Keith is being told by his bosses at EA to wind the game down or moving devs to Anthem what can he do?

 

Who knows anymore.

 

EA isn't completely to blame here, while I don't know the size of the staff working on swtor, Keith could of improved the game significantly if he listened to the community more.

 

To give credit where it's due, they did size down KOTET by a third because people wanted more MMO content, and while a focus on story is alright, it shouldn't be completely at the cost of other core features of the game. Also to mention however... that while they did size down KOTET by a third... the story suffered a heavy price with some plot holes like the scions, that room in the gravestone, and lack of companion returns integrated in a meaningful way. They also added much needed sever mergers after two years, extremely late imo, but hey, better than never along with, after a long time, fixing Galatic Command.

 

However... Keith could of done much better initially by not being so deadest with RNG on GC initially. People didn't like it under Bens vision, and people didn't initially like it under Keith's initially since he pushed a similar agenda, the gruesome RNG without a serious and realistic way to get gear through a reliable way. Yes, he raised the rates significantly to increase the speed you level, but it took them a long time to throw in a reliable currency to gain to buy the gear.

 

He could of also like... listened to 90% of the feedback from... almost every single class "balance" change they implemented. Those balance changes were abysmal at best and didn't really fix anything in PVP and made it harder to complete end game PVE related tasks... not to mention all of these "balance" changes were made useless when they put in 236 augments. He should of went to the main problem of the classes, the crazy dcds and defenses of certain classes in pvp, he fixed the leaky faucet when you should of replaced the missing pipes.

 

Finally... please Keith... get up the PTs server... just please... you need more testers so you don't get another disaster like the current conquest situation. Far to grindy, exclusive to one play style with lame rewards. The real main problem with swtor is the lack of accepting feedback from the players and has been quite sometime since around 4.0. Yes, EA may/is probably the reason for the lack of content, but while Keith is a good man and a player at heart, he needs to come to terms that not everyone thinks like him and to listen to the community more.

Edited April 27, 2018 by peter_plankskull

[Costello]

You have to give Ben some slack for RNG is exiting.

 

Firstly there is some precedent for it. Gambling is built on the rush people get from a chance win. Far more so than going into a shop and buying something of the rack as being exciting.

 

Lock boxes which are only by the slightest definition not gambling in that you always get something every time, funded this game for years further suggested that players embraced the rng element.

 

But the big one, The Dark vs Light event. Old content that offered lock boxes as the reward was praised by many as the best event ever. What the event did was bring in rewards for certain mile stones like level 25 (I think). Because a bunch of lock boxes and some other goodies were rewarded that old content was new and this list of old content was an amazing event.

 

How could you not draw from the Dark vs Light event that people wanted a system where you did old content and got a lock box from it. Every so often throwing in a companion return and some cosmetic armour. Then even if we accept that lock boxes aren't exciting, the Dark vs Light event was not just about rewards and Gambling isn't big business. What other choice did they have for end game gear. Another year of running EV and KP when it came round on priority. Even the most dedicated raiders might have looked over a WoW with its many raids a year and gone, you know what I'm tired of 6 years redoing the same raid. They made a gearing system that embraced play how you like, only downside was that most of that content was very old and it missed out the best thing about the early game the class stories.

 

But at least their was communication back then, I'm sure the rng is exciting comment came from a live stream where they were discussing the changes. Far more so than we have seen since it was said there would be more transparent more open communication.

 

Although having spent the last 8 minutes typing, it occurs that Keith threw in the towel about 6 months ago, so what I think or write really doesn't matter. The game is what it is, like it or don't its what SWTOR is and that isn't going to change no matter what is said on the forums, and I suspect all that will happen between now and when the lights go out is more direct sale cartel items where you can buy a saber for the price of a full game.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Costello

[AlrikFassbauer]

To give credit where it's due, they did size down KOTET by a third because people wanted more MMO content

 

So, forumspeople here are to blame for this ?

[AdrianDmitruk]

You have to give Ben some slack for RNG is exiting.

 

No we don't. RNG is exciting when it's optional.

 

Gambling is optional.

 

Cartel packs are optional.

 

Playing the DvL event was optional.

 

Ben tried to make RNG mandatory for everything in the game at level cap. He tried to make RNG not optional. He tried to make RNG the only way to get level cap gear, period. Moreover, he didn't listen to the community screaming that RNG, with no workarounds for those with bad luck, would f over a significant part of the population.

 

The community didn't tolerate RNG until it was once again made optional. Sure, you'll get the boxes no matter what, but unlike right at 5.0, you can also earn the gear directly now, without having to worry about RNG at all.

 

And of course, the GC changes to make RNG optional instead of mandatory were slow walked to the point that they had to merge down to two NA servers.

 

Where 5.0 hit gearing, 5.8 hit alts on a similar scale. It took far too long for Bioware to even admit there was a problem, they still seem ignorant about just how bad the problem is, and once again the studio has indicated it will slow walk fixes so that, by the time the conquest system encourages alts like it used to again, there is no one left playing the game.

[Quraswren]

SNIP....

 

Where 5.0 hit gearing, 5.8 hit alts on a similar scale. It took far too long for Bioware to even admit there was a problem, they still seem ignorant about just how bad the problem is, and once again the studio has indicated it will slow walk fixes so that, by the time the conquest system encourages alts like it used to again, there is no one left playing the game.

 

^ That whole post is well done and describes just a few of biowares past mistakes and continued ones with their short-sighted changes combined with how long it takes them to come to their senses.

 

It's to the point they screw up so much you can understand why gamers think they are doing it on purpose because no one in their right mind, if they are a gamer at all, would make the changes we have seen and think it was a good job.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Quraswren

[Lhancelot]

The game is what it is, like it or don't its what SWTOR is and that isn't going to change no matter what is said on the forums.

 

Personally I take this perspective.

 

I try not to share it, because it is cynical and cynicism doesn't help anything. Andryah was right about that and I really try to curb my sarcasm and cynicism nowadays.

 

I also think cynicism beats down potential positivity and in this situation, even if I personally feel much of what people say here on the forums won't impact the present or future game design, we don't know this to be the case. Perhaps some things stated by players, information given as feedback will be considered.

 

The forumquesters who remain positive and continue to try to keep feedback in the spotlight, kudos to you.

 

Hopefully Keith is reading, and able to differentiate cynicism with honest constructive criticism.

 

Even the most devout supporters of Keith and his design goals have pointed out fairly significant flaws in his present system of conquest. I hope he is reading, I really do.

[Lhancelot]

No we don't. RNG is exciting when it's optional.

 

Gambling is optional.

 

Cartel packs are optional.

 

Playing the DvL event was optional.

 

Ben tried to make RNG mandatory for everything in the game at level cap. He tried to make RNG not optional. He tried to make RNG the only way to get level cap gear, period. Moreover, he didn't listen to the community screaming that RNG, with no workarounds for those with bad luck, would f over a significant part of the population.

 

The community didn't tolerate RNG until it was once again made optional. Sure, you'll get the boxes no matter what, but unlike right at 5.0, you can also earn the gear directly now, without having to worry about RNG at all.

 

And of course, the GC changes to make RNG optional instead of mandatory were slow walked to the point that they had to merge down to two NA servers.

 

Where 5.0 hit gearing, 5.8 hit alts on a similar scale. It took far too long for Bioware to even admit there was a problem, they still seem ignorant about just how bad the problem is, and once again the studio has indicated it will slow walk fixes so that, by the time the conquest system encourages alts like it used to again, there is no one left playing the game.

 

This is a great post and quite poignant regarding RNG imo. RNG being shoveled down people's throats was an awful decision and nothing bothers me more about the dev choices than when they gutted the old gearing system.

 

Seriously, I am still resentful of that change. That change forced me to leave after playing for years. It also made me come back to resent the present RNG system even though they made it better.

 

The old adage does stick: You can't polish a turd. Let's be honest, the RNG gearing system is truly a turd, with polish on it.

[Stellarcrusade]

No we don't. RNG is exciting when it's optional.

 

Gambling is optional.

 

Cartel packs are optional.

 

Playing the DvL event was optional.

 

Ben tried to make RNG mandatory for everything in the game at level cap. He tried to make RNG not optional. He tried to make RNG the only way to get level cap gear, period. Moreover, he didn't listen to the community screaming that RNG, with no workarounds for those with bad luck, would f over a significant part of the population.

 

The community didn't tolerate RNG until it was once again made optional. Sure, you'll get the boxes no matter what, but unlike right at 5.0, you can also earn the gear directly now, without having to worry about RNG at all.

 

And of course, the GC changes to make RNG optional instead of mandatory were slow walked to the point that they had to merge down to two NA servers.

 

Where 5.0 hit gearing, 5.8 hit alts on a similar scale. It took far too long for Bioware to even admit there was a problem, they still seem ignorant about just how bad the problem is, and once again the studio has indicated it will slow walk fixes so that, by the time the conquest system encourages alts like it used to again, there is no one left playing the game.

 

^^^^ Exactly this. Gambling has to be a fluff thing, not required. In an MMO, many play styles require BiS gear. What I mean is, the ultimate goal each patch for many is to get BiS, there has to be a clear path to that. Not a random chance you'll get the pieces you need. IRL you go to a store to buy food, then you go to the casino to roll the dice on your spare money. If Galactic Command was IRL, our food would be in the slot machines. You die of hunger if you are unlucky. Not fun at all.

 

Also you are correct about that they seemed very ignorant. It is almost like they either do not care what players think or are completely un-aware that there are forums here. Even with the last comments about not "understanding" why people wanted to know if there was an update on the 5.9 plans, clearly indicates a serious disconnect between us and them.

 

The game peaked at the end of 4.x. Nearly every change has been a blunder since. At this point, no change is a good change.

1.) Galactic Command RNG gearing: One tiny good thing here, that PvPers can PvE more easily, and PvEers can PvP more easily. Everything else about this gearing system a complete disaster. And now, they have the gall to say the one thing they may be removing is the ONE GOOD THING about it.

2.) PvP gearing, 4.x took 2 weeks, now, 8 months..

3.) Class balance: Range DPS DCDs and more lives (self heals) than a cat, while nerfing the healing classes because "too much healing in PvP".... ****, seriously. Skanks over perform, so rather than fixing tanks in PvP they over nerf skanks? Clueless.

4.) Conquest: (see the thread, too many issues to list).

 

I have dreams that something crashes on the server and they have to roll back to 4.x, ahh, remember the days of 4.x.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Stellarcrusade

[TUXs]

You Guy's Are So Right!

It's Sad Really The Best The "Team" Can Do Is Break What Ain't Broke!

Makes Me Ponder? Mayhaps That's Thier Job?

I wish I could say that was a silly thought, but it's not...it's crossed my mind as well.

[Andryah]

This is a great post and quite poignant regarding RNG imo. RNG being shoveled down people's throats was an awful decision and nothing bothers me more about the dev choices than when they gutted the old gearing system.

 

First.. please hear me out.. this will be a little long winded....

 

I understand the context in which this is being presented by you above. And I fully understand that what was teased out and "soft promised" to players about GC in advance turned out to not be the case.. and they spent many months slowly bringing it to at least an approximation of their original promises.

 

But I think the use of RNG as a harsh negative label in this context is a mistake, as it does not get to the core issues. Same goes for "shoveled down peoples throats".

 

Why do I say this?

 

RNG is ubiquitous to MMOs. It is a component of virtually every player-2-client transaction in a game. RNG is not evil.. it is an effective tool in the design of games precisely because it is an effective mechanism for introducing variability and chance to every event in game.

 

Now... to say that RNG can be used in an evil or exploitative manner by a game studio is something that can be reasonably debated to have some validity. Generally though.. these sorts of discussions (this forum is littered with confirming evidence) are quite subjective and situational. John feels RNG hates him as it never pops in his favor.... Jack feels differently as he seem to be getting reasonable luck, and Jill is ambivalent about the whole thing because going in.. she knew everything inside a game is largely random chance and just does not get worked up about it one way or the other.

 

Personally, I don't believe RNG is the core issue here with the way GC went. Poor balancing of effort-2-gain Command Points and bad loot table itemizations definitely was a primary core problem ... because the studio made claims about what a player could expect in terms of pace of gaining GC levels, how well crate contents would be tuned to your class, and how prolific grates would be in dropping useful items. They completely misrepresented the reality with some marketing driven fantasy deception in my view. If pace of gaining Command Points, and levels, along with generous loot tables that largely matched what was teased out in advance had actually be deployed as represented... I really don't think people would have become so fixated on an "RNG is evil" meme.

----------

 

Now....

 

....for the "shoved down peoples throats" claim.... I agree that if this is actually the case.. it is bad design. But the fact is... they also did something remarkable along the crafting lines in game concurrent with the release of GC. They actually gave crafters a method to largely bypass the requirement to get gear from GC crates and only GC crates.

 

I've discussed this numerous times since 5.0... but to just short recap it ---- Our guild looked at GC the first coupled days after it went live and determined they did a nasty misrepresentation of what the pacing of GC would be for players. Leadership quickly assessd that this was going to hurt member enthusiasm with the game.. so we looked carefully at everything in 5.0 release and also quickly saw that Crafting got a big boost with 5.0. We determined that if as a guild we collectively planned and deployed a crafting engine effort within the guild we could largely ignore GC as a "need" and just let it unfold as a bonus for members as they accumulated it over time just playing.. rather than ginding for GC. Within two weeks... we had every members mains in gear that was essentially equal to tier 1 GC gear with the exception of set bonus (members often solved by backfilling with armor mods from 4.x). Further... we also had everyones alts in full 228 gear, augmented too, (which in most cases is all said alts would ever need until 6.0). This was good enough to get us up and running to do content to get additional recipes to keep moving up the gear tiers and not be obsessed with GC. Of course we also got Command Experience just playing and doing what we do as a guild.. and with that came additional recipes as well. This has continued throughout 5.x and the reality is we have a notable number of guild members that have never had a single character reach GC 300.

 

So.. I have to disagree that RNG based gearing was shoved down our throats. Had the studio not provided the notable upgrades to crafting (which honestly was a surprise given how most MMOs make crafted gear either BoP to the crafter or limit to second class gear).... I would agree with your assessment.

 

Now.. all of the above actually demonstrates a new and positive value proposition for being part and parcel to a well organized guild.. working together to help each other be up the level and gear ramps.... not just assembling to run content and then everyone runs off and acts like there is no guild except when they personally need/want something. Promoting the value of organized groups of players to do things more persistent and valuable than just grouping to kill something is actually a good thing in this era where more and more players only want to play for themselves and only random group.

 

If you are lone solo player in 5.x, wanting the best gear.... then yes.. your comments are essentially true.. though I would add that most veterans have a wealth plan that supports their play and could just "buy in" using some of their wallet to get crafted gear from other players.. which is also notable in that most MMOs wall such gear off by making it BoP to the crafter... so even in this context.. only the player who lacks any form of wealth accumulation plan is actually put in the position you express regarding RNG.

Edited April 27, 2018 by Andryah

[Master_Morak]

This is the worst part...rather than working on the mythical 6.0 expansion, now the Devs are wasting time on a system that wasn't broken...it's their "busy work" for 2018, just like tiny tweaks here and there to CXP was all of last year.

 

Aside from the new Operation, Keith has made this game LESS enjoyable...I can't express my disappointment in him enough.

 

You are absolutly right - I can't see anything he changed to be better.

 

Changing the Focus to Group Content was one of the worst decisions - who supported the gamt for a Long time, the insignicifant Group od raiders,? No, raiders are always a minority in MMOs even in WoW. The Fundament of Players are Story-loving Players, rpler, and Solo Players. this means not, that this Players never Play Ops or FPs, but is not the main Content they need and want.

 

A single OP Boss like that one on Yavin 4 or Ziost - enough. So they implemented nearly a year an OP with 5 Bosses and NO Content for Solo Players. In the same time WoW released an Operation with 11 bosses in 4 difficulties, a FP with differant difficulties, a great Questline, three area each greater as Iokath, and so on - an the subscription in botz games is equal.

 

So I hope someone takes action and forced him to correct the conquest fail

[Darevsool]

There are only two positives from the new conquest system.

 

They fixed the issue where the rewards weren't given out automatically.

Having the player submit a ticket to get rewards/titles wasn't acceptable.

 

Assigning a point value for a guild to hit to qualify for the weekly reward (instead of competition for the 10 spots on the leaderboard) was a positive change in my opinion.

 

 

 

EVERY OTHER CHANGE that happened with 5.8 has been a cluster****

(again, my opinion, but one that seems shared by many forum posters)

Edited April 27, 2018 by Darevsool

[Lhancelot]

There are only two positives from the new conquest system.

 

They fixed the issue where the rewards weren't given out automatically.

Having the player submit a ticket to get rewards/titles wasn't acceptable.

 

Assigning a point value for a guild to hit to qualify for the weekly reward (instead of competition for the 10 spots on the leaderboard) was a positive change in my opinion.

 

 

 

EVERY OTHER CHANGE that happened with 5.8 has been a cluster****

(again, my opinion, but one that seems shared by many forum posters)

 

But, participation is up. The numbers prove conquest is a success!

[kodrac]

But, participation is up. The numbers prove conquest is a success!

 

Did you get thoise numbers from olag's private server?

 

[NHBabe]

In the same time WoW released an Operation with 11 bosses in 4 difficulties, a FP with differant difficulties, a great Questline, three area each greater as Iokath, and so on - an the subscription in botz games is equal.

 

So I hope someone takes action and forced him to correct the conquest fail

 

And in LOTRO they released Mordor expansion with over 300 quests alone, not to mention deeds, raids, and etc (Aug 2017). They also just released Strongholds of the North last month with over 125 quests, and again not to mention deeds and whatnot. LOTRO has a cheaper subscription as well. I know there are some here that don't like the game, UI, engine and etc.... But there are also some that do or those that have never given it a chance. The plug-ins are also really good so for those that want to change the UI a bit, can. In less than a year LOTRO has given their customers 2 new areas to explore with a TON of content. What has SWTOR done again? Oh....right.

[peter_plankskull]

In less than a year LOTRO has given their customers 2 new areas to explore with a TON of content. What has SWTOR done again? Oh....right.

 

Yet LOTRO is considered to be in maintenance mode and swtor isn't .