Spoilers and why I did not like TLJ

[Valceanu]

Space is a vacuum, as such there is no friction nor any "wind" to cause you to slow down. Like the example I used, the voyagers 1 and 2 are moving @ 35,000 MPH with no assisted help from thrusters.

 

If the movie was trying to proclaim there was a fuel shortage, then when the fuel runs out, they would still be moving as fast as they were when it did because of existing momentum. Also, the fact they said they were "faster" then the 1st order ships? I mean, you have light speed capability against someone who does not. Light speed slightly ahead of them??? I mean that whole scene is meant to put pressure and a static timeline in place where none could exist. I mean if you can speed up you would catch them and because they cant jump. Being that there is nothing keeping them from speeding up closer to lightspeed other than the plotline, it is kind of weak.

 

"Acceleration and Velocity in Space

It's my understanding that if a space-going vessel continued to burn its engines non-stop, then regardless of the power of the engines (or the fuel used) the vessel would continue to accelerate until the fuel ran out. Then it would coast at a constant speed. A friend said that this is incorrect and that each fuel used in space has a maximum speed, and that once that speed is attained the vessel will be at a constant speed, even if the engines are on continuously. Which is true?

 

The short answer is, "You're right and your friend is wrong."

 

This question was answered by Newton when he concluded that acceleration (and not velocity) was proportional to the force applied to an object. Another of his laws was that once set in motion (such as when a spacecraft is coasting after burning its fuel), the object travels in a straight line at a constant speed unless acted upon by another force.

 

Probably the greatest reason for misunderstanding this aspect of classical physics is the modern car. We know that to drive at a constant speed we need to burn fuel. What we forget is that a moving car experiences friction in the form of air resistance. The soft tires also consume energy as they flex and turn. The fuel burned in the engine is overcoming those forces to allow the car to move at a constant speed.

 

Newton would have loved space. There is no air resistance. There is only gravity. Once a spacecraft is accelerated to a given speed, the engine is turned off and the craft coasts forever with its trajectory affected only by the force of gravity.

 

The best example of this I know is the Voyager 1 & 2 spacecraft. They were launched in 1977 and went to Jupiter and Saturn. Voyager 2 went on to Uranus and Neptune. Their trajectories were affected by gravity during their swings past the planets, but they continue to coast ever outward. Today they are nearly 90 times as far from the Sun as is the Earth and probing the region where space dominated by our Sun meets interstellar space. And on they coast, not burning any fuel. They move at a constant velocity, looking, recording, and teaching us more every day.

 

So you see, the beauty of space is that it is really much simpler than physics here on Earth.

 

Dr. Charles Smith" - quoted from https://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_sp_ms.html

 

Therefore the Empire WOULD catch up to the rebels once the rebels ran out of speed using only sub-light engines assuming both ships were travelling at maximum sub-light engine speed. As far as i understand it this confirms my earlier assumption. Continued thrust/acceleration would cause the First Order to catch up with the rebels eventually once the rebels could no longer accelerate having run out of fuel. Your point about light speed might or might not be correct. From what ive seen in SW movies in that universe Light Speed doesnt use the same engines it uses a hyperdrive and you "jump to lightspeed" rather then accelerate towards it . This requires quite some calculation, knowledge of hyperspace routes etc etc. It doesnt seem to be something you do so easily over short distances. It is unclear to me if within the confines of what we know works in the SW universe as FTL travel they could jump just ahead of the rebels or not. I would guess not since they chose to go with this... But i dont know either way. The chase itself though doesnt defy physics as stated above... at least from what i understand.

[KnightPierce]

OK so let me start by saying I LOVE STAR WARS! LOVE IT. Love the lore, story, heroes and villains. Darth Vader is still arguably the most recognizable and menacing film villains of all time.

 

I respect people who liked the film and I am not going to say you are not allowed to like it. But on the same hand, I did not.

 

I will try to just list the top 3 things I did not like with the movie and an explanation as to why.

 

1) Super untrained Rey. What in the world? An untrained force user bests someone trained and tutored by one of the greatest Jedi masters of all time.

 

2) Weak and ridicules Luke. Again... What in the world? We have one of the most powerful Jedi EVER and he gets pwned by creating a hologram with no real fight scene. Star Wars is about the Skywalkers yes? I mean even a write-in Mace Windu had an awesome fight scene... Yoda had a fight scene, Obi had a fight scene. But Luke, the most prolific of heroes in the SW universe?... no. I am just dumbfounded by what they did to Luke in this movie. This is probably the most ridicules failures of this movie.

 

3) The many many many plot holes or the invention of force abilities (to fill plot points) and use of force ghosts and light speed never used before in any other movie. Force ghosts can send down lighting. awesome right? Except why not just have force ghosts go around and kill the bad guys to start with? Just ram other ships with light-speed FTW! Not sure why nobody would have thought about this before.

 

I could go on but really, I have no reason to care about Rey, Finn, Poe or Kylo at this point. They have killed everyone else and now this is just a name on a movie and not a continuation of a story. Super Rey with a week or less of training... because forget some training... let's just go straight to beastmode. Only those insignificant Skywalkers need to be trained in the force am I right?. Just wow.

 

The SJW is strong in this move. "All men are dumb, weak or overly dramatic/aggressive."

 

This movie really killed SW for me. And this is without going into... Who was Snoke? Where did he come from? The first order? What does it mean and where did they come from? Why move from clones to normal people being storm troopers and how did they acquire and train so many in such a short period of time? I mean... I am just lost in the stupidity and carelessness of it all.

 

Star Wars is ruined for me now. I do not know if I am alone in those lines of thought, but that is where I am, I do not care about it anymore.

 

There would have been better ways to kill off Luke after they have established that Rey had EARNED and TRAINED for the part.

 

/rant

 

You are right. I wonder how old some of the kids are that are trying to argue for the new movies and the story direction they take to basically undo the very Star Wars universe. They are trying to get rid of both Jedi and Sith all together in the lore and turn SW into a generic sci fi with psyonic powers.

[NuSeC]

You are right. I wonder how old some of the kids are that are trying to argue for the new movies and the story direction they take to basically undo the very Star Wars universe. They are trying to get rid of both Jedi and Sith all together in the lore and turn SW into a generic sci fi with psyonic powers.

 

I have been wondering the same thing.

[NuSeC]

"Acceleration and Velocity in Space

It's my understanding that if a space-going vessel continued to burn its engines non-stop, then regardless of the power of the engines (or the fuel used) the vessel would continue to accelerate until the fuel ran out. Then it would coast at a constant speed. A friend said that this is incorrect and that each fuel used in space has a maximum speed, and that once that speed is attained the vessel will be at a constant speed, even if the engines are on continuously. Which is true?

 

The short answer is, "You're right and your friend is wrong."

 

This question was answered by Newton when he concluded that acceleration (and not velocity) was proportional to the force applied to an object. Another of his laws was that once set in motion (such as when a spacecraft is coasting after burning its fuel), the object travels in a straight line at a constant speed unless acted upon by another force.

 

Probably the greatest reason for misunderstanding this aspect of classical physics is the modern car. We know that to drive at a constant speed we need to burn fuel. What we forget is that a moving car experiences friction in the form of air resistance. The soft tires also consume energy as they flex and turn. The fuel burned in the engine is overcoming those forces to allow the car to move at a constant speed.

 

Newton would have loved space. There is no air resistance. There is only gravity. Once a spacecraft is accelerated to a given speed, the engine is turned off and the craft coasts forever with its trajectory affected only by the force of gravity.

 

The best example of this I know is the Voyager 1 & 2 spacecraft. They were launched in 1977 and went to Jupiter and Saturn. Voyager 2 went on to Uranus and Neptune. Their trajectories were affected by gravity during their swings past the planets, but they continue to coast ever outward. Today they are nearly 90 times as far from the Sun as is the Earth and probing the region where space dominated by our Sun meets interstellar space. And on they coast, not burning any fuel. They move at a constant velocity, looking, recording, and teaching us more every day.

 

So you see, the beauty of space is that it is really much simpler than physics here on Earth.

 

Dr. Charles Smith" - quoted from https://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_sp_ms.html

 

Therefore the Empire WOULD catch up to the rebels once the rebels ran out of speed using only sub-light engines assuming both ships were travelling at maximum sub-light engine speed. As far as i understand it this confirms my earlier assumption. Continued thrust/acceleration would cause the First Order to catch up with the rebels eventually once the rebels could no longer accelerate having run out of fuel. Your point about light speed might or might not be correct. From what ive seen in SW movies in that universe Light Speed doesnt use the same engines it uses a hyperdrive and you "jump to lightspeed" rather then accelerate towards it . This requires quite some calculation, knowledge of hyperspace routes etc etc. It doesnt seem to be something you do so easily over short distances. It is unclear to me if within the confines of what we know works in the SW universe as FTL travel they could jump just ahead of the rebels or not. I would guess not since they chose to go with this... But i dont know either way. The chase itself though doesnt defy physics as stated above... at least from what i understand.

 

I must be missing how this contradicts my point...? They would still be running as fast as they were. However, if you watch the movie, when they run out of fuel, they actually start to stop or slow down.

 

 

"if you can speed up you would catch them and because they cant jump. Being that there is nothing keeping them from speeding up closer to lightspeed other than the plotline, it is kind of weak.

 

What stopped them from gaining speeds closer to light speed in the first place in order to catch up? As far as I can tell, the plot line itself is what kept this from happening.

 

Not to mention, it is all of their ships running out of fuel at nearly the same time. Ummm.

 

 

We know both ships are capable of lightspeed. However, only one has a concern with fuel. What is preventing the first order (other then the plotline) from moving faster by closing into the speed of light to catch up? Also doing this forces the other ship to burn more fuel faster or else risk getting caught/blown up. I ask because this is the logic here.

 

But honestly, all the other stuff wrong with this movie to me, this stuff is peanuts into the mix of it all.

Edited January 2, 2018 by NuSeC

[forestguard]

As far as the losing speed when out of fuel is concerned, When have the laws of physics truly applied to the Star Wars universe though? We have swords made out of plasma, spaceships with wings on them, a star destroyer having its bridge destroyed and simply falling into the Death Star. Ships like X-wings and TIE fighters banking to make turns when there is no need to, and most ships seemingly only have one set of thrusters, so how do they even turn to begin with? Let’s not forget the gravity on a random asteroid and enough pressure that Han and Leia just need breath mask to survive.

 

As for the lightspeeding to be closer, the issue with that is most ships aren’t seen speeding up before they enter hyperspace. They’re just there, then they jump, at which point they’d most likely overshoot the target, which would allow the Resistance to get away. Hux wanted to toy with them, I’d say he did a fairly good job overall until Holdo decided to do a hyperspace sacrifice.

[Valceanu]

You can't speed up... That's my point. The sub-light engines have a maximum output which is presumably the speed at which the chase took place for both sides vessels. The ships don't go any faster then that. To go to light speed you'd have to use the hyperdrive to make a jump. We don't even know if such short jumps are possible in the SW universe given that light speed happens in hyperspace not in real space and they travel on known hyperspace routes. Naturally when the rebels run out of fuel they can't continue to accelerate which doesn't cause them to lose speed per say but they would be "slowing down" in relation to the first order ships which would continue to accelerate because they still had thrust. I didn't check of the rebel ships were effectively slowing down (which admittedly would be silly) or they were "slowing down" in relation to the first order (which would be logical). There is not maximum speed in this case... you would continue to accelerate for as long as you had thrust... unfortunately the rebels didnt have it anymore since they were out of fuel else they could have gotten away... Edited January 2, 2018 by Valceanu

[NuSeC]

As far as the losing speed when out of fuel is concerned, When have the laws of physics truly applied to the Star Wars universe though? We have swords made out of plasma, spaceships with wings on them, a star destroyer having its bridge destroyed and simply falling into the Death Star. Ships like X-wings and TIE fighters banking to make turns when there is no need to, and most ships seemingly only have one set of thrusters, so how do they even turn to begin with? Let’s not forget the gravity on a random asteroid and enough pressure that Han and Leia just need breath mask to survive.

 

As for the lightspeeding to be closer, the issue with that is most ships aren’t seen speeding up before they enter hyperspace. They’re just there, then they jump, at which point they’d most likely overshoot the target, which would allow the Resistance to get away. Hux wanted to toy with them, I’d say he did a fairly good job overall until Holdo decided to do a hyperspace sacrifice.

 

Yeah, that whole "hyperspace sacrifice" is riddled with its own bit of nonsence.

 

But in all fairness, now I am just nit picking. The OP I had was the far bigger issues facing this movie/SW saga for me.

[NuSeC]

You can't speed up... That's my point. The sub-light engines have a maximum output which is presumably the speed at which the chase took place for both sides vessels. The ships don't go any faster then that. To go to light speed you'd have to use the hyperdrive to make a jump. We don't even know if such short jumps are possible in the SW universe given that light speed happens in hyperspace not in real space and they travel on known hyperspace routes. Naturally when the rebels run out of fuel they can't continue to accelerate which doesn't cause them to lose speed per say but they would be "slowing down" in relation to the first order ships which would continue to accelerate because they still had thrust. I didn't check of the rebel ships were effectively slowing down (which admittedly would be silly) or they were "slowing down" in relation to the first order (which would be logical). There is not maximum speed in this case... you would continue to accelerate for as long as you had thrust... unfortunately the rebels didnt have it anymore since they were out of fuel else they could have gotten away...

 

 

They literally looked like they were going to fall out of the sky when they ran out of fuel. Especially the medical frigate.

[forestguard]

Yeah, that whole "hyperspace sacrifice" is riddled with its own bit of nonsence.

 

But in all fairness, now I am just nit picking. The OP I had was the far bigger issues facing this movie/SW saga for me.

 

Ok, lets also look at the original points:

 

1) Super untrained Rey. What in the world? An untrained force user bests someone trained and tutored by one of the greatest Jedi masters of all time.

 

First off, at least based on what we saw, Yoda and Obi-wan only really taught Luke the basics. Obi-wan taught him to trust his instincts and the Force, Yoda taught him how to believe in the Force to help him lift stuff. Neither taught him how to use a saber beyond deflecting bolts.

 

Second, he never tried to fight her back and win. He Force Pulled a poece of metal and was able to deflect all her attacks after she first struck him before he got the stick, then he disarmed her. The only reason he fell back was her pulling the lightsaber on him, and there wasn’t much the stick could do. Even when he fell back he gently lowered himself, showing he still had control of the situation. He could have thrown her off the cliff or pulled the saber away. He chose not to.

 

2) Weak and ridicules Luke. Again... What in the world? We have one of the most powerful Jedi EVER and he gets pwned by creating a hologram with no real fight scene. Star Wars is about the Skywalkers yes? I mean even a write-in Mace Windu had an awesome fight scene... Yoda had a fight scene, Obi had a fight scene. But Luke, the most prolific of heroes in the SW universe?... no. I am just dumbfounded by what they did to Luke in this movie. This is probably the most ridicules failures of this movie.

 

Weak? Projecting himself across the galaxy for that long takes a lot. No other Jedi did that on screen before, so we have no idea how much strain he suffers by doing that across the galaxy. It was one of the strignest things Luke could do given his situation (his X-wing appeared junked so he couldn’t really fly there), and then became one with the Force, a technique that only 4 recently before him achieved. Plus him being there to fight would not have had the same impact, because it would have been Kylo truly killing him, and imagine the impact that would have on both sides. Luke, however, was able to confess his failure to Ben, allow the Resistance to escape and give them hope, and make Kylo look foolish in front of the First Order (not a great first day as Supreme Leader).

 

3) The many many many plot holes or the invention of force abilities (to fill plot points) and use of force ghosts and light speed never used before in any other movie. Force ghosts can send down lighting. awesome right? Except why not just have force ghosts go around and kill the bad guys to start with? Just ram other ships with light-speed FTW! Not sure why nobody would have thought about this before.

 

Invention of Force powers to fill plot points? Sidious’s lightning. Vader Force Choking, Mind tricks, all made up Force abilities to further plots. Let’s not forget all the Force abilities made up in the EU (example from this game, Vitiate’s ritual? Forcewalking? Force Storm/wormhole?). As for Leia (since her surviving a vacuum seems to be a target here as well), I see it more as the Force, which has been said to have a will, still had a purpose for her and decided to keep her alive.

 

Force Ghost going around killing people? Remember the Force wants balance, and it allowed Yoda to do what was necessary to teach and preserve that balance. Notice how he didn’t actually cast the lightning like Sith do. More moved a natural phenomena. I can imagine Force Ghosts killing people would cause some weird balance issues.

 

Ramming ships with lightspeed isn’t very cost effective and has massive reliability issues. Not to mention that she didn’t fully destroy The Supremacy, only separated the left “wing” from the rest of the ship. The trailing ships that were destroyed were hit by super fast debris. Don’t forget that the ships that tried to jump to hyperspace through Vader’s ship in Rogue One just exploded. It’s an incredibly unreliable tactic.

[NuSeC]

Ok, lets also look at the original points:

 

 

 

First off, at least based on what we saw, Yoda and Obi-wan only really taught Luke the basics. Obi-wan taught him to trust his instincts and the Force, Yoda taught him how to believe in the Force to help him lift stuff. Neither taught him how to use a saber beyond deflecting bolts.

 

Second, he never tried to fight her back and win. He Force Pulled a poece of metal and was able to deflect all her attacks after she first struck him before he got the stick, then he disarmed her. The only reason he fell back was her pulling the lightsaber on him, and there wasn’t much the stick could do. Even when he fell back he gently lowered himself, showing he still had control of the situation. He could have thrown her off the cliff or pulled the saber away. He chose not to.

 

 

 

Weak? Projecting himself across the galaxy for that long takes a lot. No other Jedi did that on screen before, so we have no idea how much strain he suffers by doing that across the galaxy. It was one of the strignest things Luke could do given his situation (his X-wing appeared junked so he couldn’t really fly there), and then became one with the Force, a technique that only 4 recently before him achieved. Plus him being there to fight would not have had the same impact, because it would have been Kylo truly killing him, and imagine the impact that would have on both sides. Luke, however, was able to confess his failure to Ben, allow the Resistance to escape and give them hope, and make Kylo look foolish in front of the First Order (not a great first day as Supreme Leader).

 

 

 

Invention of Force powers to fill plot points? Sidious’s lightning. Vader Force Choking, Mind tricks, all made up Force abilities to further plots. Let’s not forget all the Force abilities made up in the EU (example from this game, Vitiate’s ritual? Forcewalking? Force Storm/wormhole?). As for Leia (since her surviving a vacuum seems to be a target here as well), I see it more as the Force, which has been said to have a will, still had a purpose for her and decided to keep her alive.

 

Force Ghost going around killing people? Remember the Force wants balance, and it allowed Yoda to do what was necessary to teach and preserve that balance. Notice how he didn’t actually cast the lightning like Sith do. More moved a natural phenomena. I can imagine Force Ghosts killing people would cause some weird balance issues.

 

Ramming ships with lightspeed isn’t very cost effective and has massive reliability issues. Not to mention that she didn’t fully destroy The Supremacy, only separated the left “wing” from the rest of the ship. The trailing ships that were destroyed were hit by super fast debris. Don’t forget that the ships that tried to jump to hyperspace through Vader’s ship in Rogue One just exploded. It’s an incredibly unreliable tactic.

 

I have already been over this with others. You have your reasons for liking it, and I have mine for not liking it. The movie can be perfect for you and that is fine with me. And we can see the same movie and disagree.

 

I have already formed my personal opinion of it and I think it was garbage. But you know that saying, One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

 

short examples and more information.

1) while Luke trained with Yoda, Obi and on his own for a number of years... up to and including training others. Luke was training in the force before Rey was even born. To act or pretend that she would be in the same league or that she has "raw powers" he had only saw one time before, to me, is laughable.

2) This force projection stuff... instead of him flying there and fighting Kylo. I mean I have heard people say "but what if he dies" Seriously? HE DID DIE. LUKE IS DEAD. and while Kylo did not get to chop him into little pieces himself, he can rest knowing that Luke IS DEAD and that it is still because of him that he is, so he ultimately did kill him. On that note, would Luke have actually died to him? Do you think Kylo was powerful enough to kill him? People say "what if" and forget what DID happen in its place.

3) As for force powers. We already saw what grand masters and high level force users can do. We have saw a person spawned from the force itself still have to be trained in how to use it. We have saw the groundwork for the SW universe as far as what was capable and what ONLY masters were able to do. We saw the growth of knowledge lead to more control and power over the force... then we have Rey. Also, please dont use this game as an example when talking about force powers. This game is not canon nor is if fair in general to compare a game that has to balance force masters with non-force users because of PVE and PVP content.

 

Leia... I mean, what is the point of even getting into that train-wreck of a scene. I mean put an S on her chest already. And not to be rude here but you just made your entire explanation up out of thin air. Are you able to speak on behalf of the force or Disney? You are having to make things up to make it work because that is the holes the story leaves.

 

Balance, lets talk about balance. I think that word is being tossed around a lot and nobody asked Lucas or Disney what "the force in balance" actually looks like. What it is trying to balance out? What is achieved when the force is balance? How about, if the force ever becomes balanced, that will be the end of SW stories.

 

As far as hyperspace bombers not being reliable. Hyperspace is a thing in this universe. They all do it or know about it. To say that Billions and billions heck, even trillions of people would not have perfected how to do it, have it studied and know the science surrounding it is just... well... whatever.

 

Also as pointed out, the US Navy has a ramming strategy as did the Japanese Imperial Air-force. kamikaze fighting is not a new or novel idea.The ultimate goal is to take out more resources than you spend. This is the same idea around ANY ordnance used.

Edited January 3, 2018 by NuSeC

[jarjarloves]

1. you forget Luke cut himself off from the force so yeah he is just a normal old guy fighting a girl who is well versed in melee combat who is using the force.

 

2. if he went there he would have died the instant they fired the ATATs at him. His plan to slow them would have failed. not to mention Kylo would have been satified destroying him. Luke woudlnt' have become one with the force and so on.

 

But lets say he was there and he survived the attack due to using the force to "shield" himself. Then that would have been the biggest plot hole in all fo star wars.

 

3. and we have also seen babies who can't even talk be able to use the force. Training only teaches you how to control it. Through out all of Star Wars they have shown you don't need training to just use force powers only at will.

 

4. as for hyperspace attacking... why do you think we don't just build ships and ram them into the enemy? Also if in the OT if they sent every single x wing and ship into the empire in hyper space the Rebellion would have lost. Like wise teh Empire can't just build tons of ships and hyper space them at every problem.

 

I was in the Navy, we absolutely DO NOT have a Ramming strategy.

 

This should be very obvious in the recent incidents with Navy ships accidentally hitting other ships.

 

The Japanese did use Kamikazes and they weren't very successful. They did manage to destroy a handful of ships but the vast majority of Kamikazes didn't do much as the ships were repaired and sent back out with in a week.

 

It should be noted that the Japanese fleet lost World War 2.

[KnightPierce]

1. you forget Luke cut himself off from the force so yeah he is just a normal old guy fighting a girl who is well versed in melee combat who is using the force.

 

in TFA the audience was told he went in search of a Jedi Temple and even left a map where to find him. The retcon that he went their to die is a huge oversight in TLJ. The basically had to write a version of Luke completely alien from the original trilogy for this script to work (and it still doesnt)

 

2. if he went there he would have died the instant they fired the ATATs at him. His plan to slow them would have failed. not to mention Kylo would have been satified destroying him. Luke woudlnt' have become one with the force and so on.

 

Ben Kenobi became one with the force at the very moment he was touched by vader's lightsaber.

Your requirement of becoming one with the force is not based on anything.

 

But lets say he was there and he survived the attack due to using the force to "shield" himself. Then that would have been the biggest plot hole in all fo star wars.

 

Yoda litterally caught force lightening and rebounded it. Kylo Ren stopped a blaster bolt in mid air.

Your logic is undone by previous movie exploits of the force.

 

3. and we have also seen babies who can't even talk be able to use the force. Training only teaches you how to control it. Through out all of Star Wars they have shown you don't need training to just use force powers only at will.

 

An uninitiated Luke Skywalker failed to even come close to matching vader despite being strong in the force and vader missing most of his body. An flailing child should be be able to beat someone that is trained.

This is not how the force has been used or explained in any other iteration of Star Wars.

 

4. as for hyperspace attacking... why do you think we don't just build ships and ram them into the enemy? Also if in the OT if they sent every single x wing and ship into the empire in hyper space the Rebellion would have lost. Like wise teh Empire can't just build tons of ships and hyper space them at every problem.

 

I was in the Navy, we absolutely DO NOT have a Ramming strategy.

 

This should be very obvious in the recent incidents with Navy ships accidentally hitting other ships.

 

The Japanese did use Kamikazes and they weren't very successful. They did manage to destroy a handful of ships but the vast majority of Kamikazes didn't do much as the ships were repaired and sent back out with in a week.

 

It should be noted that the Japanese fleet lost World War 2.

 

If this was a thing they could have droids pilot ships into eachother while escaping in the escape pods. If you compare resourcing of modern military today we literally fire missiles more expensive than planes,

the reason why you don't do it is because missiles are more effective. Hyperspace is not just light speed travel which the movie ignores. Its pushing objectives into an extra dimension of space so that they can achieve faster than light travel by traveling in part through hyperspace. Most of the ships mass would not be in normal space heavily reducing what damage the ship could do. It would be ineffective, on this point I believe we are in agreement.

[NuSeC]

The Japanese did use Kamikazes and they weren't very successful. They did manage to destroy a handful of ships but the vast majority of Kamikazes didn't do much as the ships were repaired and sent back out with in a week.

 

 

 

https://visitpearlharbor.org/faqs/how-many-people-died-at-pearl-harbor-during-the-attack/

 

"The total number of military personnel killed was 2,335, including 2,008 navy personnel, 109 marines, and 218 army. Added to this were 68 civilians, making the total 2403 people dead. 1,177 were from the USS Arizona.

 

The number of wounded came to 1,143 with 710 navy, 69 marines, and 364 army, as well as 103 civilians.

 

Total Japanese personnel losses were 55 men."

 

 

Also,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor

All eight U.S. Navy battleships were damaged, with four sunk. All but the USS Arizona were later raised, and six were returned to service and went on to fight in the war. The Japanese also sank or damaged three cruisers, three destroyers, an anti-aircraft training ship,[nb 5] and one minelayer. One hundred eighty-eight U.S. aircraft were destroyed; 2,403 Americans were killed and 1,178 others were wounded

 

 

In short - the Japanese lost 55 men to our 2,403 killed and 1,178 wounded. Yet you say it was not effective?

 

I was in the Navy, we absolutely DO NOT have a Ramming strategy.

 

 

If a carrier is in danger, the fleet will do everything in its power to keep it from being hit. Ramming other ships is included in that scenario... right along with moving other ships in front of the carrier to absorb whatever ordnance that may be fired at it.

 

 

also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramming

Edited January 3, 2018 by NuSeC

[forestguard]

I have already been over this with others. You have your reasons for liking it, and I have mine for not liking it. The movie can be perfect for you and that is fine with me. And we can see the same movie and disagree.

 

I have already formed my personal opinion of it and I think it was garbage. But you know that saying, One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

 

short examples and more information.

1) while Luke trained with Yoda, Obi and on his own for a number of years... up to and including training others. Luke was training in the force before Rey was even born. To act or pretend that she would be in the same league or that she has "raw powers" he had only saw one time before, to me, is laughable.

2) This force projection stuff... instead of him flying there and fighting Kylo. I mean I have heard people say "but what if he dies" Seriously? HE DID DIE. LUKE IS DEAD. and while Kylo did not get to chop him into little pieces himself, he can rest knowing that Luke IS DEAD and that it is still because of him that he is, so he ultimately did kill him.

3) As for force powers. We already saw what grand masters and high level force users can do. We have saw a person spawned from the force itself still have to be trained in how to use it. We have saw the groundwork for the SW universe as far as what was capable and what ONLY masters were able to do. We saw the growth of knowledge lead to more control and power over the force... then we have Rey. Also, please dont use this game as an example when talking about force powers. This game is not canon nor is if fair in general to compare a game that has to balance force masters with non-force users because of PVE and PVP content.

 

As far as hyperspace bombers not being reliable. Hyperspace is a thing in this universe. They all do it or know about it. To say that Billions and billions heck, even trillions of people would not have perfected how to do it, have it studied and know the science surrounding it is just... well... whatever.

 

Also as pointed out, the US Navy has a ramming strategy as did the Japanese Imperial Air-force. kamikaze fighting is not a new or novel idea.The ultimate goal is to take out more resources than you spend. This is the same idea around ANY ordnance used.

 

I have no issues with people disliking it. A close friend at my church was not as much a fan, although he was more indifferent toward it. He also said he’d have to see it a second time, not sure if he did yet. If it brings about discussion, that’s a good thing. It’s not perfect for me, but I can find ways to justify what seemed odd to me outside of physics related stuff.

 

This game does technically count for comparing because it’s part of the old EU. You never know who will try to say the old stuff was better, so I add it as a sort of preemptive sort of claim. Similar to my Consular point, because it’s not like this is he first time we’ve seen this, it’s just the first time technically in canon, but not in the history of Star Wars. I don’t mean the PvE and PvP aspect, but the actual lore and stories.

 

I would say while raw power, it’s just that, raw. Untrained. We’ve seen in other places such as Star Wars: The Clone Wars (Season 2, Episode 3, titled Children of the Force, shows an infant levitating a ball), and this very game as an example. Both the Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular have some raw power. The Consular is said to have been stronger in the Force at 4 than their master was at 15. The Twi’lek that takes the one holoprojector in the Consular prologue on Tython has raw enough power to collapse a cave. The Jedi masters we know may have had similar raw power when they were younger, but they were trained to control it, to restrain themselves unless necessary. But like I said, Luke doesn’t try to fight her back, and he still manages to beat her until she draws the lightsaber. She’s nowhere in his league. She has raw strength, but he is a true master and controlled that situation. As I said, he didn’t even let himself fully fall to the ground when she had the saber, and could have easily defeated her. Raw strength is one thing, but it’s nothing compared to a master.

 

I’m aware Luke died, and saw it a fitting way to go for him. He died at peace, having said what he needed to say. Kylo can’t claim that he killed Luke because members of the First Order saw it, the Rebellion knows that’s not the case, and the story is spreading like wildfire. And you can see on Kylo’s face when he realizes what happens, and he is furious, because he knows he didn’t kill him. And that truth will haunt him.

 

Since you say not to use the game, or Legends in that case, how about Luke in Dagobah. Yoda has him lift rocks until he truly believes he can do it and learn control. Yoda’s two biggest points in using the Force were “Control, control, you must learn control,” and, when Luke only says he doesn’t believe he can lift the X-Wing but Yoda does it, “That is why you fail.” Yoda didn’t say he had to jump through all these hoops, he saod he needed control because he had none, he just did, and that he needed to believe. Rey, once realizing she does have the Force, quickly latches on and believes, even if she’s scared like she tells Luke, but she lacks proper control. Which was why she couldn’t resist the pit when meditating and couldn’t sense Snoke behind their bond.

 

And again with hyperspace ramming, it’s unreliable, but also costly and risky. You have to be willing to throw away whatever it is that you are using on the slim chance that it’ll actually hit the target. Ramming Naval ships is a little easier because you aren’t immediately going into another dimension. It comes down to what the actual cost is to build a ship to do that compared to building an actual superweapon, that could he reused, as well as the cost of lives needed. Holdo had a tough choice to make in her kamikazee. She could have escaped but then the rest of the Resistance would be dead. And it wasn’t fully worth it as she didn’t destroy the Supremacy, and the First Order still had a bigger fleet, and that was a cruiser, no less. The Resistance/Rebellion now have the Falcon. They could have another capital ship somewhere, but we don’t know that.

[NuSeC]

I have no issues with people disliking it. A close friend at my church was not as much a fan, although he was more indifferent toward it. He also said he’d have to see it a second time, not sure if he did yet. If it brings about discussion, that’s a good thing. It’s not perfect for me, but I can find ways to justify what seemed odd to me outside of physics related stuff.

 

This game does technically count for comparing because it’s part of the old EU. You never know who will try to say the old stuff was better, so I add it as a sort of preemptive sort of claim. Similar to my Consular point, because it’s not like this is he first time we’ve seen this, it’s just the first time technically in canon, but not in the history of Star Wars. I don’t mean the PvE and PvP aspect, but the actual lore and stories.

 

I would say while raw power, it’s just that, raw. Untrained. We’ve seen in other places such as Star Wars: The Clone Wars (Season 2, Episode 3, titled Children of the Force, shows an infant levitating a ball), and this very game as an example. Both the Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular have some raw power. The Consular is said to have been stronger in the Force at 4 than their master was at 15. The Twi’lek that takes the one holoprojector in the Consular prologue on Tython has raw enough power to collapse a cave. The Jedi masters we know may have had similar raw power when they were younger, but they were trained to control it, to restrain themselves unless necessary. But like I said, Luke doesn’t try to fight her back, and he still manages to beat her until she draws the lightsaber. She’s nowhere in his league. She has raw strength, but he is a true master and controlled that situation. As I said, he didn’t even let himself fully fall to the ground when she had the saber, and could have easily defeated her. Raw strength is one thing, but it’s nothing compared to a master.

 

I’m aware Luke died, and saw it a fitting way to go for him. He died at peace, having said what he needed to say. Kylo can’t claim that he killed Luke because members of the First Order saw it, the Rebellion knows that’s not the case, and the story is spreading like wildfire. And you can see on Kylo’s face when he realizes what happens, and he is furious, because he knows he didn’t kill him. And that truth will haunt him.

 

Since you say not to use the game, or Legends in that case, how about Luke in Dagobah. Yoda has him lift rocks until he truly believes he can do it and learn control. Yoda’s two biggest points in using the Force were “Control, control, you must learn control,” and, when Luke only says he doesn’t believe he can lift the X-Wing but Yoda does it, “That is why you fail.” Yoda didn’t say he had to jump through all these hoops, he saod he needed control because he had none, he just did, and that he needed to believe. Rey, once realizing she does have the Force, quickly latches on and believes, even if she’s scared like she tells Luke, but she lacks proper control. Which was why she couldn’t resist the pit when meditating and couldn’t sense Snoke behind their bond.

 

And again with hyperspace ramming, it’s unreliable, but also costly and risky. You have to be willing to throw away whatever it is that you are using on the slim chance that it’ll actually hit the target. Ramming Naval ships is a little easier because you aren’t immediately going into another dimension. It comes down to what the actual cost is to build a ship to do that compared to building an actual superweapon, that could he reused, as well as the cost of lives needed. Holdo had a tough choice to make in her kamikazee. She could have escaped but then the rest of the Resistance would be dead. And it wasn’t fully worth it as she didn’t destroy the Supremacy, and the First Order still had a bigger fleet, and that was a cruiser, no less. The Resistance/Rebellion now have the Falcon. They could have another capital ship somewhere, but we don’t know that.

 

If the things do not bother you I mention that Is great. I am happy that others are happy, I am not and I am not the only one. The points I raised are the points as I perceive them. I can understand someone liking the movie in the same way that I did not. The issues I bring up are the ones that matter to me and are not explained away. I do not see those points the same way you do. And you know what? That is OK

 

At the end of the day, I take issue with the story itself and the direction they have taken SW. I just do not agree with it. It is what it is

Edited January 3, 2018 by NuSeC

[forestguard]

in TFA the audience was told he went in search of a Jedi Temple and even left a map where to find him. The retcon that he went their to die is a huge oversight in TLJ. The basically had to write a version of Luke completely alien from the original trilogy for this script to work (and it still doesnt)

 

He actually didn’t leave the map. It’s considered a map to Luke, perhaps the same one he used, but he didn’t make or leave it. But nowhere in the movie do they say that he himself left it. Han also says that Luke felt responsible and just walked away from everything. The Jedi Temple wasn’t necessarily fact, but more Han saying as if he heard second-hand, “Rumors. Stories. The people that knew him best say....”

 

“2. But lets say he was there and he survived the attack due to using the force to "shield" himself. Then that would have been the biggest plot hole in all fo star wars.”

 

Yoda litterally caught force lightening and rebounded it. Kylo Ren stopped a blaster bolt in mid air.

Your logic is undone by previous movie exploits of the force.

 

Both single attacks. One cast of lightning. One blaster bolt from a rifle. That’s quite a leap from there to 30 seconds of constant fire from 6-7 AT-ATs.

 

“3. and we have also seen babies who can't even talk be able to use the force. Training only teaches you how to control it. Through out all of Star Wars they have shown you don't need training to just use force powers only at will. “

 

An uninitiated Luke Skywalker failed to even come close to matching vader despite being strong in the force and vader missing most of his body. An flailing child should be be able to beat someone that is trained.

 

Vader is the Chosen One after all, and became an expert at killing fully trained Jedi, meanwhile in Luke vs Rey Luke wasn’t trying to win, and despite that he was still winning the fight.

Edited January 3, 2018 by forestguard

[NuSeC]

 

Both single attacks. One cast of lightning. One blaster bolt from a rifle. That’s quite a leap from there to 30 seconds of constant fire from 6-7 AT-ATs.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6LeL3s4Q80&t=95s

 

 

On that note, why would that be where he jumped in to fight? That is all done in writing, they could of had any number of ways to write the script, this is how Rian decided to go and it is his vision of SW.

 

These events, all of them, happen because of bad story telling. He could have wrote that Kylo went to face him at the Jedi temple, or any other number of things could have happened in a story - you make it up, that is what a story is and this is what Rian made up. inferring that is why Luke did not fight him is because that is how the story that was wrote for this film. It does not mean it is a good story because SW is slapped on the box, and you are more than welcome to disagree.

 

Mark Hammell himself says it is not "my Luke"... and he had to "think of him as Jake Skywalker."

 

I agree with Mark.

[forestguard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6LeL3s4Q80&t=95s

 

 

On that note, why would that be where he jumped in to fight? That is all done in writing, they could of had any number of ways to write the script, this is how Rian decided to go and it is his vision of SW.

 

These events, all of them, happen because of bad story telling. He could have wrote that Kylo went to face him at the Jedi temple, or any other number of things could have happened in a story - you make it up, that is what a story is and this is what Rian made up. inferring that is why Luke did not fight him is because that is how the story that was wrote for this film. It does not mean it is a good story because SW is slapped on the box, and you are more than welcome to disagree.

 

Mark Hammell himself says it is not "my Luke"... and he had to "think of him as Jake Skywalker."

 

I agree with Mark.

 

Oop, that is the Clone Wars miniseries, is it not? Which is also now non-canon sorry, couldn’t help myself.

 

He jumped in there to buy time. That was the best time to do so. I mean, he could’ve done so before the FO went to Crait, but it wouldn’t be as big of a diversion then

 

I gladly disagree, and that allows for this type of conversation.

 

I agree that that was Mark Hamill’s first impression. But I agree more with this Hamill post (both the tweet and the linked interview comments):

Edited January 3, 2018 by forestguard

[jarjarloves]

https://visitpearlharbor.org/faqs/how-many-people-died-at-pearl-harbor-during-the-attack/

 

"The total number of military personnel killed was 2,335, including 2,008 navy personnel, 109 marines, and 218 army. Added to this were 68 civilians, making the total 2403 people dead. 1,177 were from the USS Arizona.

 

The number of wounded came to 1,143 with 710 navy, 69 marines, and 364 army, as well as 103 civilians.

 

Total Japanese personnel losses were 55 men."

 

 

Also,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor

All eight U.S. Navy battleships were damaged, with four sunk. All but the USS Arizona were later raised, and six were returned to service and went on to fight in the war. The Japanese also sank or damaged three cruisers, three destroyers, an anti-aircraft training ship,[nb 5] and one minelayer. One hundred eighty-eight U.S. aircraft were destroyed; 2,403 Americans were killed and 1,178 others were wounded

 

 

In short - the Japanese lost 55 men to our 2,403 killed and 1,178 wounded. Yet you say it was not effective?

 

 

If a carrier is in danger, the fleet will do everything in its power to keep it from being hit. Ramming other ships is included in that scenario... right along with moving other ships in front of the carrier to absorb whatever ordnance that may be fired at it.

 

 

also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramming

 

ummmm Pearl Harbor wasn't Kamikaze attacks. In fact there was only 1 Kamikaze at Pearl Harbor and that's because his plane was damaged and he was leaking fuel.

 

In total i think it was like 35 ships sunk from about 3,000 or so Kamikaze pilots. So yeah... no it wasn't very effective.

 

The USS Arizona was sunk due to bombs not Kamikaze pilots. So... great job on showing how effective bombs are .

 

again Japan's navy lost the war in the Pacific theater so clearly its not a good tactic.

 

Yes the battle group usually frigates (which is why nick name them torpedoe sponges) will get in front of Torpedoes and missles when they can to protect the carrier. They won't ram other ships... we have guns to do that... and missles... all of which do a much better job at stopping other ships.

 

Sure you will probably find 1 incident where we had to do that because we didn't open fire but that proves my point. It's not an effective or even useful stratagy for attacking.

 

As for the wikipedia article you linked it does reference some ships ramming German U boats but thats primarlely due to not being able to hit them (being on the waterline and all that) and that's the equvilent of running over a rock on a motor cycle.

 

Seriously where did you get this crazy idea that our Navy activaly attacks enemy fleets by ramming our ships into them?

[TheSinsith]

#notmylukeskywalker

[DarthDymond]

However, you have to remember, the original SW "before it was re-subtitled "the new hope" Lucas had no idea he was even going to be able to make anymore. He had the whole thing planned out but Fox did not want a trilogy. So he had to make a single movie that would be all it was. With a possible opener into TESB but it could also live and die as a singular movie. Lucas did the original with that in mind. Which is why we started at episode 4 in place of 1 when the whole thing kicked off.

There were plot elements from earlier drafts of Star Wars (drafts that were too long to fit in a single movie) that Lucas built upon and fleshed out to make the original trilogy, but my point is that Darth Vader being Luke's father was not one of those pre-planned elements. It was a retcon that Lucas and Lawrence Kasdan came up with after Star Wars had been released, when they were working on the second or third draft (depending on how you count) of the script for The Empire Strikes Back, after the original screenplay writer, Leigh Brackett, had passed away.

 

After originally setting up that Vader killed Anakin, Lucas changed his mind, retconned it in the next movie, and even then only got around to handwaving in an explanation for that retcon ("from a certain point of view") in the third movie.

 

That change -- that retcon -- re-contextualized and radically improved the story, provided one of the most iconic moments from the series, and is arguably one of the major reasons the saga has had such a lasting impact. So I find it . . . somewhat ironic, that some fans of that same series are now criticizing The Last Jedi because it took a character's backstory in a different direction than the direction they feel the prior movie had been setting up -- particularly when that perceived 'setup' was made through vague hints and implications at best.

 

Also, it is explained as a certain point of view. Even in ROTS - Yoda tells Obi that "the padawan you trained gone he is- consumed by Darth Vader. One of the very reasons why TESB is regarded as the best is because of the twist of words used and how Lucas was able to leave enough making you want to know what happens in the third part of the trilogy once TESB came out.

Yes, after the fact, in later movies, they provided an explanation to reconcile the retcon with the original dialogue. They might do something like that in the third installment in this trilogy as well, or they might legitimately not feel the need to. After all, unlike with ANH / TESB, there was no direct, explicit contradiction that needs to be explained away here, just one potential implication that didn't end up being true.

Edited January 3, 2018 by DarthDymond

[NuSeC]

 

Seriously where did you get this crazy idea that our Navy activaly attacks enemy fleets by ramming our ships into them?

 

I never said ramming other ships was the norm, I said they have it built in to protecting the carrier. And if they have to take a hit, they will do whatever it take, including ram another ship before it can hit the carrier. Obviously you would use other ordnance before just running a boat into someone. But to say there is no case or that it is never done is a stretch.

 

 

My point is on the whole kamikaze thing is that it can be very effective. It is essentially a guided missile before guided missiles were a thing.

 

It is still a thing but we dont call it that, we now call it terrorist attacks. Some dude loading himself or others up with explosives for suicide bombings. It is the same principle.

[NuSeC]

Oop, that is the Clone Wars miniseries, is it not? Which is also now non-canon sorry, couldn’t help myself.

 

He jumped in there to buy time. That was the best time to do so. I mean, he could’ve done so before the FO went to Crait, but it wouldn’t be as big of a diversion then

 

I gladly disagree, and that allows for this type of conversation.

 

I agree that that was Mark Hamill’s first impression. But I agree more with this Hamill post (both the tweet and the linked interview comments):

 

 

Yeah. of course it is non-canon now. lol

 

Also as far as Mark, he knows it made money, however he also voiced his opinion, do you think he didn't get any flack from that?

[forestguard]

Yeah. of course it is non-canon now. lol

 

Also as far as Mark, he knows it made money, however he also voiced his opinion, do you think he didn't get any flack from that?

 

He could’ve. I don’t onow what goes on behind the scenes. However, I think there was a large difference between what he read in the script when he said he didn’t like it to when he saw the finished work, and that might’ve had an impact on the difference in his comments. It might still not have been his Luke, but I have a feeling J.J. Abrams was heading that direction anyway given some things in TFA.

[KnightPierce]

We will see Disney reboot episode 7 - 9. They should not bother with episode 9 and scrape the whole thing and start over before they lose more actors to age and death from original cast.