Spoilers and why I did not like TLJ

[NuSeC]

Answers in orange.

 

You do realize that Social Justice Warrior is a politically weaponized term by hard right wing conservatives to denigrate those who support liberal agendas. So if you want to go around parroting something you heard on Fox News, you better be prepared to catch some flak for it.

 

I realize that SJW think they have a copyright on equality. However, as pointed out already, Most women disagree with feminism. I get my news/ information from multiple sources and politically am an independent. Also, the links in the post I made are from liberal websites on the statistics about feminism and women.

 

Heck I'm politically conservative, yet I refuse to use that term because of the divisiveness it brings and the fact that it does bring race and sex into the equation. Maybe one day when our reptilian overlords reveal themselves to the public and try to seize control of the whole world will humans finally become colorblind and sexism is a thing of the past, maybe then you can throw around SJW and no one will care about it but until that happens you better expect some flak for it.

 

My view on race is more dramatic. I wish we would all just breed each other out and just be one race and be done with it already - racism is stupid. If that shows how much I care about it.

 

[AlienEyeTX]

I know, right?

 

"What's Luke doing now?"

"He just achieved enlightenment and ascended to a higher form of existence."

"Man, what a loser."

 

lol exactly! Some people are just mad because they can't let go of the old EU. Or because they just like to complain.

 

Or because they are trolling. There's a big troll in this thread and we've been feeding it way too much.

[NuSeC]

lol exactly! Some people are just mad because they can't let go of the old EU. Or because they just like to complain.

 

Or because they are trolling. There's a big troll in this thread and we've been feeding it way too much.

 

 

This review best fits my issues with TLJ.

 

Are you now calling me a troll?

[NuSeC]

I know, right?

 

"What's Luke doing now?"

"He just achieved enlightenment and ascended to a higher form of existence."

"Man, what a loser."

 

"What's Luke doing now?

 

Nothing... he died because he was a little whiny punk and "projected himself" and because it was already hinted about an hour before hand.

 

However, super Rey is awesome and pwning trained force users while having about 2 days of training.

 

But the plot moves on.

[DarthDymond]

However, super Rey is awesome and pwning trained force users while having about 2 days of training.

When did that happen?

 

She didn't duel Kylo, she was consistently thrown around like a helpless rag doll by Snoke, and the only time she got the upper hand on Luke was when she drew a lightsaber on him when all he had was a stick (a stick that he "pwned" her with when she tried fighting him with her staff).

 

The only real fight she got into was against the non-Force User praetorians, and she won that by fighting with the "trained force user".

Edited December 21, 2017 by DarthDymond

[AlienEyeTX]

 

This review best fits my issues with TLJ.

 

Are you now calling me a troll?

 

Why do you ask?

 

I'm sorry you don't like the new characters and can't let go of the old EU. But things are moving in a better, more natural direction now.

 

Finn is just comic relief and nothing more. BB-8 is awesome like R2. Poe is learning how to be a leader. Rey is learning how to give people hope. Kylo is learning how to let go and forge his own path.

 

Let the past die. Kill it, if you must. This is the new reality.

[Adam_J_K]

lol exactly! Some people are just mad because they can't let go of the old EU. Or because they just like to complain.

 

Speaking of the old EU, I kinda hated where the post Young Jedi Knights series stuff went. People who thought Karen Traviss was bad didn't read anything by Troy Denning. Luke drawing on the power of the dark side to fuel force powers, then looking like Palpatine until he immediately healed himself, and no corruption from using the dark side. Then there were the super sayajin Jedi who glowed brightly while using a lot of force power. I'm honestly glad they got rid of the YV stuff and the Legacy of the Force crap. The whole poorly written "romance" between Jaina Solo and Jagged Fel was worse than anything from the PT. I think it was the worst part of the entire Star Wars canon before Disney got rid of it.

 

The only thing we're missing from after Episode 6 is the Thrawn Trilogy, but we've got Thrawn in Star Wars Rebels, so I'm pretty satisfied. The direction the movies are going is good. It's the Sequel Trilogy. It's what happens at the end of the Skywalker saga. If you thought it was going to be any different, you were deluding yourself. Of course Han died; I knew that as soon as Episode 7 was revealed. Of course Luke wasn't going to be a big part of this Trilogy, we've got new heroes to cheer for. Of course there is going to be moralizing, parents will take their kids to see this movie, and people will form their life's philosophies off of these movies. And of course there are going to be cute little porgs, because merchandizing has always been a big part of Star Wars, there is a grand old tradition of making cute little fuzzy characters to sell to kids.

 

Heck, Star Wars is pretty much compeltely responsible for how all movies are merchandized to us now. If you thought it was going to be any different, take off your rose tinted nostalgia glasses and give the OT a fresh watch. Why were all those different looking bounty hunters on the Bridge of the Executor? Why couldn't Vader just hire the best and send Boba Fett after the MF? Because more characters = more $$$. Why were there so many different aliens in Jabba's Palace? Merchandizing again.

 

Anyways, exit polls put TLJ at 89% positive, and there's a guy claiming to have rigged the Rotton Tomatoes user score, so I'm going to believe what everyone has told me that I know has seen it: They like it. A guy I know that dislikes Star Wars specifically, loved the movie. All my friends that are huge Star Wars fans, loved the movie. It appeals to a wide range of people, and while there are things that people didn't like, most people I'm listening to in person disagree on what that is. Some didn't like Canto Bight, some didn't like Snoke, and one didn't like that it made him late to work.

 

All of these reasons are why I can't take someone serious who says that this movie killed Star Wars for them; especially when they start whining about "SJWs," and don't understand basic Star Wars lore (judging from the initial post, the OP didn't know clones were phased out of the Empire's military years before even Rogue One).

[NuSeC]

Why do you ask?

 

I'm sorry you don't like the new characters and can't let go of the old EU. But things are moving in a better, more natural direction now.

 

Finn is just comic relief and nothing more. BB-8 is awesome like R2. Poe is learning how to be a leader. Rey is learning how to give people hope. Kylo is learning how to let go and forge his own path.

 

Let the past die. Kill it, if you must. This is the new reality.

 

Good for you and your opinion. I have no issue with new people... however, they did not do justice to Luke before killing them off and then there are the plot holes I have already mentioned.

 

My opinion, and I am not alone, is that the movie failed on several fronts.

 

I can respect that you liked it. I did not.

[AlienEyeTX]

Speaking of the old EU, I kinda hated where the post Young Jedi Knights series stuff went. People who thought Karen Traviss was bad didn't read anything by Troy Denning. Luke drawing on the power of the dark side to fuel force powers, then looking like Palpatine until he immediately healed himself, and no corruption from using the dark side. Then there were the super sayajin Jedi who glowed brightly while using a lot of force power. I'm honestly glad they got rid of the YV stuff and the Legacy of the Force crap. The whole poorly written "romance" between Jaina Solo and Jagged Fel was worse than anything from the PT. I think it was the worst part of the entire Star Wars canon before Disney got rid of it.

 

The only thing we're missing from after Episode 6 is the Thrawn Trilogy, but we've got Thrawn in Star Wars Rebels, so I'm pretty satisfied. The direction the movies are going is good. It's the Sequel Trilogy. It's what happens at the end of the Skywalker saga. If you thought it was going to be any different, you were deluding yourself. Of course Han died; I knew that as soon as Episode 7 was revealed. Of course Luke wasn't going to be a big part of this Trilogy, we've got new heroes to cheer for. Of course there is going to be moralizing, parents will take their kids to see this movie, and people will form their life's philosophies off of these movies. And of course there are going to be cute little porgs, because merchandizing has always been a big part of Star Wars, there is a grand old tradition of making cute little fuzzy characters to sell to kids.

 

Heck, Star Wars is pretty much compeltely responsible for how all movies are merchandized to us now. If you thought it was going to be any different, take off your rose tinted nostalgia glasses and give the OT a fresh watch. Why were all those different looking bounty hunters on the Bridge of the Executor? Why couldn't Vader just hire the best and send Boba Fett after the MF? Because more characters = more $$$. Why were there so many different aliens in Jabba's Palace? Merchandizing again.

 

Anyways, exit polls put TLJ at 89% positive, and there's a guy claiming to have rigged the Rotton Tomatoes user score, so I'm going to believe what everyone has told me that I know has seen it: They like it. A guy I know that dislikes Star Wars specifically, loved the movie. All my friends that are huge Star Wars fans, loved the movie. It appeals to a wide range of people, and while there are things that people didn't like, most people I'm listening to in person disagree on what that is. Some didn't like Canto Bight, some didn't like Snoke, and one didn't like that it made him late to work.

 

All of these reasons are why I can't take someone serious who says that this movie killed Star Wars for them; especially when they start whining about "SJWs," and don't understand basic Star Wars lore (judging from the initial post, the OP didn't know clones were phased out of the Empire's military years before even Rogue One).

 

Good points. And I agree about the Thrawn trilogy. It was fantastic and things went downhill from there. As good as that was, this new direction works equally well, imo.

 

And I, too, have yet to talk to anybody in person who did not like TLJ. That means more to me than a few internet warriors bashing it for all the wrong reasons.

[NuSeC]

Speaking of the old EU, I kinda hated where the post Young Jedi Knights series stuff went. People who thought Karen Traviss was bad didn't read anything by Troy Denning. Luke drawing on the power of the dark side to fuel force powers, then looking like Palpatine until he immediately healed himself, and no corruption from using the dark side. Then there were the super sayajin Jedi who glowed brightly while using a lot of force power. I'm honestly glad they got rid of the YV stuff and the Legacy of the Force crap. The whole poorly written "romance" between Jaina Solo and Jagged Fel was worse than anything from the PT. I think it was the worst part of the entire Star Wars canon before Disney got rid of it.

 

The only thing we're missing from after Episode 6 is the Thrawn Trilogy, but we've got Thrawn in Star Wars Rebels, so I'm pretty satisfied. The direction the movies are going is good. It's the Sequel Trilogy. It's what happens at the end of the Skywalker saga. If you thought it was going to be any different, you were deluding yourself. Of course Han died; I knew that as soon as Episode 7 was revealed. Of course Luke wasn't going to be a big part of this Trilogy, we've got new heroes to cheer for. Of course there is going to be moralizing, parents will take their kids to see this movie, and people will form their life's philosophies off of these movies. And of course there are going to be cute little porgs, because merchandizing has always been a big part of Star Wars, there is a grand old tradition of making cute little fuzzy characters to sell to kids.

 

Heck, Star Wars is pretty much compeltely responsible for how all movies are merchandized to us now. If you thought it was going to be any different, take off your rose tinted nostalgia glasses and give the OT a fresh watch. Why were all those different looking bounty hunters on the Bridge of the Executor? Why couldn't Vader just hire the best and send Boba Fett after the MF? Because more characters = more $$$. Why were there so many different aliens in Jabba's Palace? Merchandizing again.

 

Anyways, exit polls put TLJ at 89% positive, and there's a guy claiming to have rigged the Rotton Tomatoes user score, so I'm going to believe what everyone has told me that I know has seen it: They like it. A guy I know that dislikes Star Wars specifically, loved the movie. All my friends that are huge Star Wars fans, loved the movie. It appeals to a wide range of people, and while there are things that people didn't like, most people I'm listening to in person disagree on what that is. Some didn't like Canto Bight, some didn't like Snoke, and one didn't like that it made him late to work.

 

All of these reasons are why I can't take someone serious who says that this movie killed Star Wars for them; especially when they start whining about "SJWs," and don't understand basic Star Wars lore (judging from the initial post, the OP didn't know clones were phased out of the Empire's military years before even Rogue One).

 

http://www.showbiz411.com/2017/12/19/star-wars-box-office-trouble-last-jedi-first-monday-receipts-are-half-as-much-as-the-force-awakens

 

"WEDS UPDATE: “Last Jedi” Tuesday was $20.3 million vs. $37 mil for “Force Awakens” on its first Tuesday. That’s around 42% off. $17 million is a big difference. Monday and Tuesday are big days for adults going to the movies, so this development is a little surprising. Almost every other film increased from Monday to Tuesday by quite a lot. Only “Last Jedi” declined, by 6%. Again, Monday and Tuesday are days when adults come out and sample “smart” movies. For some reason, their interest in “Star Wars” less than was imagined."

 

They can't blame bots for reducing people showing up at the theater. They can however blame a bad story, not nearly as many repeat viewings and people that watched spoilers only to find how they disgraced SW's biggest hero to grow a plot point and do not want to go watch it first hand.

[Kaedusz]

However, super Rey is awesome and pwning trained force users while having about 2 days of training.

 

Apparently Rey is the light side version of Vitiate.

[kepeskvaeri]

Answers in orange.

 

Can you two give it a rest this is a forum devoted to star wars discussions and a tread devoted to a movie.

if you please keep to the subject.

If you can not do that I suggest that you exhange phone numbers and take you bickering someplace else.

[Leklor]

http://www.showbiz411.com/2017/12/19/star-wars-box-office-trouble-last-jedi-first-monday-receipts-are-half-as-much-as-the-force-awakens

 

"WEDS UPDATE: “Last Jedi” Tuesday was $20.3 million vs. $37 mil for “Force Awakens” on its first Tuesday. That’s around 42% off. $17 million is a big difference. Monday and Tuesday are big days for adults going to the movies, so this development is a little surprising. Almost every other film increased from Monday to Tuesday by quite a lot. Only “Last Jedi” declined, by 6%. Again, Monday and Tuesday are days when adults come out and sample “smart” movies. For some reason, their interest in “Star Wars” less than was imagined."

 

They can't blame bots for reducing people showing up at the theater. They can however blame a bad story, not nearly as many repeat viewings and people that watched spoilers only to find how they disgraced SW's biggest hero to grow a plot point and do not want to go watch it first hand.

 

They can also be logical.

TFA's release was PRed to death.

It was the first Star Film in 10 years (Nobody remembers the Clone Wars movie) and the first to feature the OT cast in more than 30 years.

"The Last Jedi" is the third Star Wars film in as many years, and while it was heavily promoted, it still didn't have this "event of the decade" aura that TFA had. I'm pretty sure the film will indeed bring about half of what TFA brought. Just like Rogue One did. I'm pretty sure all of the Star Wars movie from now on will mostly do 1 billion. TFA was more an exception than the rule.

[Supersomething]

1) Super untrained Rey. What in the world? An untrained force user bests someone trained and tutored by one of the greatest Jedi masters of all time.

 

As others have stated Snoke basically tells you that a force in the light rises to meet the dark. Also another thing to consider is how did the first Jedi ever become Jedi? You cannot tell me they just automatically knew the ways of the force or there were instruction manuals just laying around. It is not so outrageous to believe that because the force is trying to restore balance that it provided Rey with the means of gaining these abilities without a teacher.

 

2) Weak and ridicules Luke. Again... What in the world? We have one of the most powerful Jedi EVER and he gets pwned by creating a hologram with no real fight scene. Star Wars is about the Skywalkers yes? I mean even a write-in Mace Windu had an awesome fight scene... Yoda had a fight scene, Obi had a fight scene. But Luke, the most prolific of heroes in the SW universe?... no. I am just dumbfounded by what they did to Luke in this movie. This is probably the most ridicules failures of this movie.

 

Actually Luke was the epitome of what a Jedi should be in that scene. The entire point of Kylo is to have his long awaited duel with Luke Skywalker. Luke denies him this with the most incredible displays of force power ever seen. He refused to fight Kylo in the way he wanted, and make Kylo look like a fool.

 

3) The many many many plot holes or the invention of force abilities (to fill plot points) and use of force ghosts and light speed never used before in any other movie. Force ghosts can send down lighting. awesome right? Except why not just have force ghosts go around and kill the bad guys to start with? Just ram other ships with light-speed FTW! Not sure why nobody would have thought about this before.

 

Force projection is apparently made canon in Star Wars: Rebels, force ghosts were used in Clone Wars and the original trilogy. Light speed ship ramming is mentioned in some of the canon books and I believe in Rebels. The reason why force ghosts are not going around killing everyone is the same reason the hobbits don't take the eagles to Mt. Doom in Lord of the Rings.

[NuSeC]

Can you two give it a rest this is a forum devoted to star wars discussions and a tread devoted to a movie.

if you please keep to the subject.

If you can not do that I suggest that you exhange phone numbers and take you bickering someplace else.

 

As if I started it... I have no intention of continuing down that path nor did I start anyone down that path. I was not the one derailing the subject.

[Savej]

I could overlook everything else, but:

 

For me the director/writer took the penultimate fantasy hero and spat on his legacy and everything about it. That Luke was the complete opposite of what he was in the good movies.

 

And the director/writer seems to be of the opinion that ultra powerful ancient Sith Lords pop up out of nowhere with no backstory or explanation required.

 

Major continuity issues. Major letdown. I will probably watch ep 9 but RJ's trilogy gets a pass from me.

[NuSeC]

As others have stated Snoke basically tells you that a force in the light rises to meet the dark. Also another thing to consider is how did the first Jedi ever become Jedi? You cannot tell me they just automatically knew the ways of the force or there were instruction manuals just laying around. It is not so outrageous to believe that because the force is trying to restore balance that it provided Rey with the means of gaining these abilities without a teacher.

 

 

 

Actually Luke was the epitome of what a Jedi should be in that scene. The entire point of Kylo is to have his long awaited duel with Luke Skywalker. Luke denies him this with the most incredible displays of force power ever seen. He refused to fight Kylo in the way he wanted, and make Kylo look like a fool.

 

 

 

Force projection is apparently made canon in Star Wars: Rebels, force ghosts were used in Clone Wars and the original trilogy. Light speed ship ramming is mentioned in some of the canon books and I believe in Rebels. The reason why force ghosts are not going around killing everyone is the same reason the hobbits don't take the eagles to Mt. Doom in Lord of the Rings.

 

For your first point... Snoke... who is a nobody apparently... over all does not matter as we know nothing about who he is or where he came from. The idea that they are now just making it up as they go along is not really lore. This has nothing to do with the first Jedi. It has to do with people getting pwned by somebody who literally knows nothing about the force. But it is cute that they made up the part of the force trying to balance Rey against Kylo for the sake of the story. However... what about all those Jedi over hundreds of years. They didnt need no stupid training or trials after all huh? I mean lets just write away all the lore in one movie to move the plot along.

 

Second point. We will have to agree to disagree on how Luke was handled.

 

Force ghosts is not my problem, Yoda shooting down lighting while being a force ghost is.

[NuSeC]

I could overlook everything else, but:

 

For me the director/writer took the penultimate fantasy hero and spat on his legacy and everything about it. That Luke was the complete opposite of what he was in the good movies.

 

And the director/writer seems to be of the opinion that ultra powerful ancient Sith Lords pop up out of nowhere with no backstory or explanation required.

 

Major continuity issues. Major letdown. I will probably watch ep 9 but RJ's trilogy gets a pass from me.

 

Agreed.

[DarthDymond]

And the director/writer seems to be of the opinion that ultra powerful ancient Sith Lords pop up out of nowhere with no backstory or explanation required.

We went over 15 years with The Emperor having "no backstory or explanation" provided - Snoke is developed just as much in the ST as The Emperor ever was in the OT.

Edited December 21, 2017 by DarthDymond

[Savej]

We went over 15 years with The Emperor having "no backstory or explanation" provided - Snoke is developed just as much in the ST as The Emperor ever was in the OT.

 

What happened to the "rule of 2"? This ancient Sith was obviously alive when Palpatine was in power - where was he? Why wasn't there a power struggle? How did he get Palpatine's job? It doesn't matter now, tho, he's dead; his story is over.

[Supersomething]

For your first point... Snoke... who is a nobody apparently... over all does not matter as we know nothing about who he is or where he came from. The idea that they are now just making it up as they go along is not really lore. This has nothing to do with the first Jedi. It has to do with people getting pwned by somebody who literally knows nothing about the force. But it is cute that they made up the part of the force trying to balance Rey against Kylo for the sake of the story. However... what about all those Jedi over hundreds of years. They didnt need no stupid training or trials after all huh? I mean lets just write away all the lore in one movie to move the plot along.

 

Second point. We will have to agree to disagree on how Luke was handled.

 

Force ghosts is not my problem, Yoda shooting down lighting while being a force ghost is.

 

But Snoke was destroyed by Kylo not Rey? Kylo killing Snoke was almost a direct implication of Kylo advancing from apprentice by killing his master using Snoke's own power against him and fooling him. Rey didn't do a whole lot during the film to be perfectly honest. She killed some honor guards with Kylo, with much difficulty and almost getting her self killed. Fought with Kylo over the lightsaber with a force pull duel that ended in a draw, and ended the film by lifting rocks to save the resistance while Luke did the heavy lifting. I don't really see how lore was written away, but instead how more was added to it. The force has been seriously fleshed out through the Clone Wars and Rebels series, so much to the point that Rey advancing as she does is not as difficult to believe as it may have been if we only had the original trilogy to run on.

 

Fair enough.

 

See my first point.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Supersomething

[DarthDymond]

What happened to the "rule of 2"? This ancient Sith was obviously alive when Palpatine was in power - where was he? Why wasn't there a power struggle? How did he get Palpatine's job? It doesn't matter now, tho, he's dead; his story is over.

(1) Again, we went through the entire OT without any explanation about The Emperor's history and rise to power, the Rule of 2, or the Sith at all (the word "Sith" is never even mentioned on-screen before TPM) - not sure why "he's a bad guy in charge who uses the Dark Side" worked fine for being The Emperor's entire backstory for 15 years, but it's an issue for Snoke.

 

(2) When is it ever stated that Snoke is a "Sith"? He certainly uses the Dark Side, but just like Luke's "first lesson" to Rey is that the Jedi don't have a monopoly on the Light, why would the Sith be the only Dark Siders? The EU / Legends and the New Canon already both have long had other Dark Side users (Inquisitors and Nightsisters to name a couple).

Edited December 21, 2017 by DarthDymond

[MuskyBoy]

this guy sums up my thoughts on the movie. Not going to debate the merit of liking or disliking it as it is a frivolous exercise.

[Savej]

(1) Again, we went through the entire OT without any explanation about The Emperor's history and rise to power, the Rule of 2, or the Sith at all (the word "Sith" is never even mentioned on-screen before TPM) - not sure why "he's a bad guy in charge who uses the Dark Side" worked fine for being The Emperor's entire backstory for 15 years, but it's an issue for Snoke.

 

(2) When is it ever stated that Snoke is a "Sith"? He certainly uses the Dark Side, but just like Luke's "first lesson" to Rey is that the Jedi don't have a monopoly on the Light, why would the Sith be the only Dark Siders? The EU / Legends and the New Canon already both have long had other Dark Side users (Inquisitors and Nightsisters to name a couple).

 

The first movies setup rules and contexts and a framework and this movie/character threw them out the window. If we hadn't already seen any of the other movies, Snoke would be fine. But since we did and those movies setup rules and contexts and this one broke them without mentioning them or offering any sort of explanation, then it is a major inconsistency. And while subsequent movies might go into more detail about Snoke, you don't have the climactic confrontation and then afterwards explain why it was a climactic battle or who exactly the combatants were: that's objectively bad storytelling. Also bad storytelling is when you recreate a classic/epic scene from a preceding movie and then show how it would have gone down if Vader or Luke was a little more "clever" (unless you're going for parody).

[NuSeC]

this guy sums up my thoughts on the movie. Not going to debate the merit of liking or disliking it as it is a frivolous exercise.

 

Exactly my thoughts. In fact. I already posted this vid. LOL