Spoilers and why I did not like TLJ

[Draqsko]

Because I can use that word? If someone wants to read more into it than I wrote that is on them. And it is intentionally antagonistic only for people that don't understand what is going on.

 

Low-comprehension readers do not get a free pass because they may become "triggered."

 

If you want to choose to use it, you are the one bringing politics into the discussion. You are like the guy I had this very same discussion with in the KSP subreddit and I'll end this the same way I ended that:

 

This isn't the place for you to take on your crusade against political viewpoints you oppose, if you do then the responses you get are all on you. The rest of us come here to get away from that crap.

[Draqsko]

And I would say it isn't.

I don't think anyone expects TLJ to equal or outgross TFA.

Outgross Rogue One certainly, I'm sure they are bent on that. But TFA? Star Wars "It's been thirty years since you've seen Han, Leia and Luke, come around all, also this is a classic Star Wars movie with no politics in it" Episode VII "The Force Awakens but also Lucasfilm marketing department because this is a once in a decade event Star Wars is back and it's not the Prequels"

TLJ will, even if it ends up grossing half of what TFA did, be a success and easily in the top 5 highest grossing films of the year. If not on top of it.

 

Edit: What I mean isn't clearly stated but: The Star Wars "fatigue" is already settling in for some people. Three movies in as many years is going to impact the box-office. But TLJ won't bomb. It already hasn't.

 

It's already exceeded RO, and is expected to have a bigger weekend this weekend than TFA did in its second week. Will it close the gap, probably not but it will finish number 2 of all SW films in gross revenue.

[Leklor]

It's already exceeded RO, and is expected to have a bigger weekend this weekend than TFA did in its second week. Will it close the gap, probably not but it will finish number 2 of all SW films in gross revenue.

 

Then it's pretty much what I expected to see happen. Thanks for the info.

 

That's a great point. Just because Tetris sold more copies than, say, The Witcher 3, does not make it the game of more substance by default.

 

It's actually completely irrelevant.

Sure, sales number don't make the quality of a product, but it's not like the opposite is true too.

It's the perfect non-argument about TLJ.

"Just because it makes money doesn't mean it's good"

True. But just because someone hates it doesn't mean "he" is right and everyone else is wrong because they are sheep and he has reached enlightenment.

So this has litteraly no weight in any discussion about this movie or anything else.

It's not a good point.

 

Also, your Tetris/TW3 comparison makes no sense. At all.

[Draqsko]

Then it's pretty much what I expected to see happen. Thanks for the info.

 

 

 

It's actually completely irrelevant.

Sure, sales number don't make the quality of a product, but it's not like the opposite is true too.

It's the perfect non-argument about TLJ.

"Just because it makes money doesn't mean it's good"

True. But just because someone hates it doesn't mean "he" is right and everyone else is wrong because they are sheep and he has reached enlightenment.

So this has litteraly no weight in any discussion about this movie or anything else.

It's not a good point.

 

Also, your Tetris/TW3 comparison makes no sense. At all.

 

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/grossbydays.htm?days=3&p=.htm

 

You can see it basically keeps pace with Jurassic World through opening week, so I would expect similar numbers. JW got 45% of its revenue within the first week, so if TLJ simply doubles its take for the reminder of its run, it will most certainly exceed RO.

[Dayshadow]

It didn't. It took an entire year of war until the Empire was seemingly defeated at Jakku. And the truth is that most of what remains followed Rae Sloane in the Unknown Regions, forming the First Order.

 

A year? We're talking about a GALACTIC power. A smaller force isn't going to dethrone them in a decade, much less a year. To fully dismantle such a thing militarily might not even be feasible.

 

In the new canon too. In fact it lasted almost ten years longer than the Legends NR.

 

As a backstory. Within the movies it was never a thing. You never really saw it as a functional entity. It's just background reference and at its height cinematically, a group of fancy looking folks staring at a planet destroying beam before they died.

 

It's been stated by Abrams and confirmed by Johnson that they are not.

 

Doesn't matter what they say with their words. The proof is in the pudding. Kylo and Snoke are no different than Vader and Sidious. Snoke even refers to Kylo as Vader's successor. Come on, bro.

 

Philosophical differences, for one. When I say Legends has Sith remain, I mean ACTUAL Sith. With the same codes, ideology, etc...

From the get go, Kylo Ren and Snoke don't follow the rules of the Sith because:

1) They don't respect the Rule of Two (The Knights of Ren are heavily implied to be the apprentices Ben took with him.)

2) They don't follow a Sith Code of any sort.

3) Snoke's objective is galactic conquest, killing Luke and the Jedi was just a means to that end. The Sith main objective WAS destroying the Jedi. Snoke is more or less a reverse Sith.

 

1.) Yeah, and neither did Sidious. Star Wars Rebels (which is canon, correct?) introduces Inquisitors who are basically additional Sith under the direct command of Vader. Furthermore, the ancient Sith prior to Darth Bane did not follow the Rule of Two either. The Rule of Two is not a be all end all Sith doctrine. Look what game's forum you're on?

 

Are the Knights of Ren even a thing still? I figure they were yet another casualty of Rian Johnson's distain for TFA?

 

2.) No one follows the Sith Code. "Peace is a lie, there is only passion..." blah blah blah. It's meaningless dribble from a practical standpoint. As far as using hatred, fear, anger to power the force and being ****** people because of it they are indeed Sith. Abrams could have made them Grey and they could have been more morally ambiguous, but he didn't do that. Instead Snoke is clearly an Evil Emperor archetype who specifically wants his apprentice to cut out the light parts and only embrace the darkness. Classic Sith stuff.

 

3.) Palpatine's goal was galactic conquest, destroying the Jedi Order was just a means to that end.

 

The Sith existed on Korriban for millennia prior to rediscovering the Republic and Jedi. They were Sith even when they weren't concerned with Jedi. Palpatine and Vader were still Sith after the Jedi Order fell and would still be Sith even if they were the only two force users in existence. Sith are not defined only as a contrast to Jedi no more than Jedi are defined as an antithesis to the Sith. Snoke is more or less a classic Sith.

 

It was, by Snoke. Rey is basically getting cheat codes by the Force to even the playing field with Kylo. It's hammered in several times in the movie that they work as opposite and therefore Rey is made as powerful as Kylo Ren otherwise there'd be no balance possible. (Whether balance means Dark and Light equal or Light triumphant, Dark decimated)

 

Wrong. Her POWER in the force is what he said rose to meet Kylo. Her ability to use telekinesis, mind reading, force persuade and expertly wield a lightsaber without any training whatsoever is NEVER explained. It was hinted in TFA that she had some training as a child prodigy and her mind was blocked, but Johnson dumped that. Power or not, she would still need to be trained.

 

How so? Because it went a way you didn't expect/hope?

Pretty much every starting situation in TLJ is exactly how TFA ends. It's very much in continuity.

 

I didn't hope for anything. I have zero expectations for this trilogy. I hated TFA. I don't hate TLJ. If I had never seen TFA or any other SW movie it would be OK by itself.

 

The Rey issue. There are things not only suggesting she's been trained before, but Kylo Ren makes comments implying he was aware of her. His obsession with "the girl" and his "It is you" line (from the novelization?). Even her irrational obsession with waiting on Jakku implied subconscious programming. Not to mention her awakening during Kylo's mind probe. It's clear the there was something being set up. I would say Kylo was lying, but Rey is the one who says she's nobody. It's like this movie shifted to another reality.

 

Kylo depowering. He goes from stopping blaster bolts and using Snoke style telekinesis to brawling with a bunch of non-force sensitives and possibly losing if not for Rey being there. And there is no unbalancing from killing his father and a bowcaster wound this time to explain away his weakness. He should have been splattering the guards against the walls and making them beat themselves with their own weapons laughing, "I'm too OP'd for you scrubs".

 

And you'd be wrong. Foster ...

 

Foster? Greg Rucka wrote it.

 

Also, Star Wars novelization that blatantly contradict the movies? Never happened... Ever. *Squints at Attack of the Clones* Never.

 

Do tell.

[Leklor]

A year? We're talking about a GALACTIC power. A smaller force isn't going to dethrone them in a decade, much less a year. To fully dismantle such a thing militarily might not even be feasible.

 

A GALACTIC power. That was canibalizing itself, that attempted to wipe out it's own population (Operation Cinder) which caused mass defection from their ranks (To obey the whims of a dead mad tyrant no less) and who had already lost a lot of it's top brass at Endor.

The Empire dismantled itself as much as the New Republic did.

 

As a backstory. Within the movies it was never a thing. You never really saw it as a functional entity. It's just background reference and at its height cinematically, a group of fancy looking folks staring at a planet destroying beam before they died.

 

And that's relevant how?

It still means that for almost 30 years the Galaxy knew a state of peace and prosperity. Something Legends never allowed because they cruised from galaxy-spanning conflict to the next like they needed one to prevent reality from collapsing in on itself.

 

Doesn't matter what they say with their words. The proof is in the pudding. Kylo and Snoke are no different than Vader and Sidious. Snoke even refers to Kylo as Vader's successor. Come on, bro.

 

And yet they are not "Sith". Which doesn't cheapen the Prophecy as much as Legends did by outright having people named "Sith" pop back up withing 10 years of Endor. That's my point when I say Disney was smart to not have "Siths" in the Sequel Trilogy.

 

1.) Yeah, and neither did Sidious. Star Wars Rebels (which is canon, correct?) introduces Inquisitors who are basically additional Sith under the direct command of Vader. Furthermore, the ancient Sith prior to Darth Bane did not follow the Rule of Two either. The Rule of Two is not a be all end all Sith doctrine. Look what game's forum you're on?

 

The Inquisitors are very specifically shown to not be Sith and to be no threat to Palpatine or Vader. They're barely strong enough to fight Jedi apprentices and retired padawans who lucked out of Order 66.

 

Are the Knights of Ren even a thing still? I figure they were yet another casualty of Rian Johnson's distain for TFA?

 

They are, otherwise Luke wouldn't mention the apprentices Ben took with him when he turned. I'd put my money on them being the KoR.

 

2.) No one follows the Sith Code. "Peace is a lie, there is only passion..." blah blah blah. It's meaningless dribble from a practical standpoint. As far as using hatred, fear, anger to power the force and being ****** people because of it they are indeed Sith. Abrams could have made them Grey and they could have been more morally ambiguous, but he didn't do that. Instead Snoke is clearly an Evil Emperor archetype who specifically wants his apprentice to cut out the light parts and only embrace the darkness. Classic Sith stuff.

 

And how did that work out for Snoke? Oh yeah, bissected and Kylo Ren declaring that he was going to raze everything and build anew.

 

3.) Palpatine's goal was galactic conquest, destroying the Jedi Order was just a means to that end.

 

New canon material implies the reverse. The Empire was a tool for his ambition instead of his goal. As we don't know anything about Snoke, I will admit that I was theorizing.

 

Wrong. Her POWER in the force is what he said rose to meet Kylo. Her ability to use telekinesis, mind reading, force persuade and expertly wield a lightsaber without any training whatsoever is NEVER explained.

 

Fat lot of good "power" would do to her without at least the skill to use them. Snoke's word could be interpreted both your way and my way, on this neither of us is right until someone with actual authority clears it up.

 

It was hinted in TFA that she had some training as a child prodigy and her mind was blocked, but Johnson dumped that.

 

When? How? I keep reading that but it's never really implied anywhere. Not even in the book which has quite a few additional material.

 

Power or not, she would still need to be trained.

 

Luke pulled his lightsaber to his hand in ESB without training. Also shot the Death Star's exhaust port by instinct without much more training the failing to blind-parry a training remote. And he learns to lift rocks before Yoda "shows" him anything.

 

There are things not only suggesting she's been trained before, but Kylo Ren makes comments implying he was aware of her. His obsession with "the girl" and his "It is you" line (from the novelization?).

 

Not really. The "What girl?" line and what follows is simply his reaction to the "awakening" of Rey. He's felt it and he knows that Finn wasn't it so when he hears that "a girl" helped him escape Jakku he deduces that she's the Force-Sensitive one because it's how it usually goes. Then as shown in TLJ, Kylo was probably intent on killing Snoke for a long time and he was obsessed with Rey because he wanted someone at this side to do it and after.

 

Even her irrational obsession with waiting on Jakku implied subconscious programming.

 

Can't Rey just be stubborn and terribly naïve? Everything else in the film shows that she's a very trusting person who is stubborn as hell. If she was really "programmed" to want to return to Jakku then just a few words from Maz wouldn't have done anything.

 

Not to mention her awakening during Kylo's mind probe.

 

Again, no indication of prior training, she's just resisting him by instinct. And even then she mostly fails because Kylo is aware of the truth of her parents in TLJ and he could have only gotten it from her.

 

It's clear the there was something being set up.

 

Yes, a J.J. Abrams mystery box. Johnson took that and resolved it with elements present in TFA (All of those points above, as you can see, could be explained with your interpretation or my own.). If TFA was really setting up those reveals for Rey, how come I'd interpreted the film pretty much the way TLJ turned out? Did I make up elements?

 

Kylo depowering. He goes from stopping blaster bolts and using Snoke style telekinesis to brawling with a bunch of non-force sensitives and possibly losing if not for Rey being there. And there is no unbalancing from killing his father and a bowcaster wound this time to explain away his weakness. He should have been splattering the guards against the walls and making them beat themselves with their own weapons laughing, "I'm too OP'd for you scrubs".

 

That's reaching. We have no clear information on the Praetorian Guards and Kylo is shown to be even more unhinged and unstable in TLJ. That wouldn't help him. The whole film shows him descending further and further, losing control completely.

 

Foster? Greg Rucka wrote it.

 

Nope.

Rucka wrote "Before the Awakening" and while Finn is depicted as martially competent, he's incapable of social interaction, unwillinh to kill civilians and prone to disobedience.

And he's the same in TFA. Check the sequence where Poe is shown chain killing TIEs on Takodana but look at Finn instead. Once he stops using the lightsaber and picks up a blaster rifle he's trained with all his life, he manages to chain three kill-shots one-handed (With a weapon meant to be used with two hands) and misses only a single shot in total. The movie just doesn't give Finn a lot of chances to shine (Giving him two fights with a weapon he doesn't know how to use, the lightsaber.)

But again, I'd like to know how exactly you came to the conclusion that Before the Awakening was written before Boyega was cast... when Poe Dameron is a major character in it, with his own story, and he only became a major part of TFA when Oscar Isaac complained to Abrams about dying in every movie he'd made recently which, combined with his strong performance, changed his fate from dying during the crash on Jakku to miraculously surviving and become a lead character.

So if Poe was made a major character during the shooting of the film, how exactly could he have been treated as a main character in "Before the Awakening", written according to you at the time where he didn't even survive the first act of the film (Before TFA was cast and shot.)

It's impossible, that's how it is.

 

Do tell.

 

Let's see: Syfo-Dyas implied to have actually been Count Dooku under an alias as opposed to every canon and Legends material later stating that he did order the Clone Army with Dooku's complicity then was murdered in a set-up by Sidious.

The Clone Army itself being only 200.000 clones strong instead of 200.000 (military) units as originally intended (It ended up altering the "Republic Commando" novel series from Traviss intentions)

Shmi's capture being inconsistent (Implied to have been raped actually) and Anakin's revenge excluding the children (A key point in the film though that might be censorship in the French print).

Geonosis being far less deadly for the Jedi (There are still several dozen alive in the Arena), Jango scoring several kills instead of just Coleman Trebor.

That sort of stuff.

Novelization aren't Word of God in Star Wars. No matter how much I wish it was so for Matthew Stover's Revenge of the Sith.

[NuSeC]

If you want to choose to use it, you are the one bringing politics into the discussion. You are like the guy I had this very same discussion with in the KSP subreddit and I'll end this the same way I ended that:

 

This isn't the place for you to take on your crusade against political viewpoints you oppose, if you do then the responses you get are all on you. The rest of us come here to get away from that crap.

 

Get off it. You don't get to tell someone what they are or are not allowed to like about a film. SW is also about politics... it revolves heavily around it. In it we have senators, generals, emperors, faction leaders etc. So don't act like there is no reason to talk about how something that is a political ideology being pushed in a film should not be talked about.

 

It is a single line in a long rant and it is not dismissing women or any races. It is saying the opposite if anything. so stop acting like it was some "trigger" for people who are not capable of reading something on the internet because of "feelings."

The SJW is strong in this move. "All men are dumb, weak or overly dramatic/aggressive."

[NuSeC]

Then it's pretty much what I expected to see happen. Thanks for the info.

 

 

 

It's actually completely irrelevant.

Sure, sales number don't make the quality of a product, but it's not like the opposite is true too.

It's the perfect non-argument about TLJ.

"Just because it makes money doesn't mean it's good"

True. But just because someone hates it doesn't mean "he" is right and everyone else is wrong because they are sheep and he has reached enlightenment.

So this has litteraly no weight in any discussion about this movie or anything else.

It's not a good point.

 

Also, your Tetris/TW3 comparison makes no sense. At all.

 

 

The entire point to this thread is that "I" meaning "me"... does not like the movie and the reasons I gave on the OP are my reasons alone. If others agree - well great! Also in the OP I did not say super Leia - flying in outer spice like Mary Poppins - an additional rant I am now adding. The movie is so off base with what it was at it's core to me, it feels like it just does not belong. You are entirely entitled to believe that it is quality and a great movie. You can believe it is the greatest SW movie of all time with the many who are saying that. And you know what? That is perfectly OK to me. I just do not see it that way.

Edited December 23, 2017 by NuSeC

[Leklor]

The entire point to this thread is that "I" meaning "me"... does not like the movie and the reasons I gave on the OP are my reasons alone. If others agree - well great! Also in the OP I did not say super Leia - flying in outer spice like Mary Poppins - an additional rant I am now adding. The movie is so off base with what it was at it's core to me, it feels like it just does not belong. You are entirely entitled to believe that it is quality and a great movie. You can believe it is the greatest SW movie of all time with the many who are saying that. And you know what? That is perfectly OK to me. I just do not see it that way.

 

I think you quoted the wrong post.

Because I don't really see the link to what I was saying ^^

[Kaedusz]

All things considered i dislike the post ep 6 EU(except Krayt) much more than the new movies, whatever their failings.

However I feel bitter at Disney for *********** over the Old Republic EU , so that effects my enjoyment of the new films.

 

If Disney decides to make the Old Republic EU canon or if not all of it, then just kotor1/2 + swtor, then i could persuade myself that they are not that bad, and just enjoy them for what they are.

 

If they make the Bane and Plagueis books canon, in addition to the above mentioned , then i will *********** love the new films.

 

I dislike the post ep 6 EU so much that if they did what i said above, i would gloat in satisfaction how Luke was destroyed as a character + cus of other things.

I became a Star Wars fan due to Bioware games, not cus of the original trilogy, so Luke is almost nothing to me.

Strangely enough i have more respect for Mark Hamill after he said he doesn't like the new movies though.

Edited December 23, 2017 by Kaedusz

[Leklor]

All things considered i dislike the post ep 6 EU(except Krayt) much more than the new movies, whatever their failings.

However I feel bitter at Disney for *********** over the Old Republic EU , so that effects my enjoyment of the new films.

 

If Disney decides to make the Old Republic EU canon or if not all of it, then just kotor1/2 + swtor, then i could persuade myself that they are not that bad, and just enjoy them for what they are.

 

If they make the Bane and Plagueis books canon in addition to the above mentioned , then i will *********** love the new films.

 

I dislike the post ep 6 EU so much that if they did what i said above, i would gloat in satisfaction how Luke was destroyed as a character + cus of other things.

I became a Star Wars fan due to Bioware games, not cus of the original trilogy, so Luke is almost nothing to me.

Strangely enough i have more respect for Mark Hamill after he said he doesn't like the new movies though.

 

I'd say there's a 50/50 chance of the Old Republic being reintroduced into Canon. But it won't be the exact same, just as Thrawn isn't the same in Canon than in Legends (Different design, slightly less absurdly competent and omniscient).

For example, we might see Darth Bane but he probably won't wear an armor made of Orbalisks, his apprentice might not be named Zhana (That's her name, right?) and maybe the Sith from before won't be called "The Brotherhood of Darkness" led by Lord Kaan at the battle of Ruusan against General Hoth and Valenthyne Farfalla (That guy's name sounds like italian pasta, it distracts me from his actual character ^^)

Broad strokes, you know.

As for KOTOR 1, 2 and beyond, I really hope EA pulls its head out of its *** and remakes it in full, aligned with the new canon (The version that exist is far too steeped in Legends canon), both refreshing the original story and including elements that weren't in the original but match today's EU (Like Crossguard Lightsabers). And it should be a game, not a movie. KOTOR will never work as a movie both due to the twist and because everyone has their Revan and just declaring one to be canon made people rage against SWTOR.

[Draqsko]

Get off it. You don't get to tell someone what they are or are not allowed to like about a film. SW is also about politics... it revolves heavily around it. In it we have senators, generals, emperors, faction leaders etc. So don't act like there is no reason to talk about how something that is a political ideology being pushed in a film should not be talked about.

 

It is a single line in a long rant and it is not dismissing women or any races. It is saying the opposite if anything. so stop acting like it was some "trigger" for people who are not capable of reading something on the internet because of "feelings."

 

The only thing I see here is you getting upset because someone else responded to you bringing it up, and me telling you that you should expect that when you decide to dip your toes into the quagmire of political discussion.

 

You are right, you have every right to say what you want, but anyone else has a right to respond how they feel appropriate as well and you do not have the right to get upset over that fact if you bring it up first.

[NuSeC]

The only thing I see here is you getting upset because someone else responded to you bringing it up, and me telling you that you should expect that when you decide to dip your toes into the quagmire of political discussion.

 

You are right, you have every right to say what you want, but anyone else has a right to respond how they feel appropriate as well and you do not have the right to get upset over that fact if you bring it up first.

 

Are you a SJW? Are you offended? If not, then let it go. It is just the opinion of some guy on the internet. I have 0 impact in your life or well-being. Let it go.

 

I responded because I was accused of being a racist and misogynist. So yes, I have a right to respond to that.

[LeGrindMax]

All things considered i dislike the post ep 6 EU(except Krayt) much more than the new movies, whatever their failings.

 

Interesting remark; other than the Thrawn Trilogy, and the Vong Wars (what the ST should have been?) , MOST of the Old post-VI EU was met with downright hostily, jadedness and/or indifference

[Dayshadow]

A GALACTIC power. That was canibalizing itself, that attempted to wipe out it's own population (Operation Cinder) which caused mass defection from their ranks (To obey the whims of a dead mad tyrant no less) and who had already lost a lot of it's top brass at Endor.

The Empire dismantled itself as much as the New Republic did.

 

I'm not referring to anything in the EU or whatever various versions of Star Wars there is. Is that from the latest game? I saw something with a droid with a TV face of the Emperor. LOL.

 

And that's relevant how?

It still means that for almost 30 years the Galaxy knew a state of peace and prosperity. Something Legends never allowed because they cruised from galaxy-spanning conflict to the next like they needed one to prevent reality from collapsing in on itself.

 

I don't care about Legends. It's relevant from a film making standpoint because cinematically you jumped from RotJ with Rebellion and Empire to TFA with Resistance and First Order (i.e. Rebellion and Empire 2.0). For the audience the Republic was never really a thing. I could care less about some backstory we never actually see. Which is one of the issues with the First Order. Cinematically they are just the Empire. There is no development in terms of storytelling. It's like the Empire just changed it's name to the First Order and the Rebellion to the Resistance. I would have been better to show the First Order's formation as an offshoot of a working Republic and as I mentioned before make them more morally ambiguous and sympathetic instead of copy and pasting the OT situation. Also no Starkiller.

 

And yet they are not "Sith".

 

They are Sith. Period. Unless you can tell me what practical difference there is they are Sith. The prophecy was to balance the force. What that even means is ambiguous at best. But I guess all the Jedi and Sith dying balanced it... or.. whatever? It wasn't like the prophecy of the 1000 reign where either the Jedi or the Sith would prosper for a thousand years and it lasted for 50 years. There was no promise that any balance would last forever. Although, again, why are you constantly bringing up Legends?

 

The Inquisitors are very specifically shown to not be Sith and to be no threat to Palpatine or Vader. They're barely strong enough to fight Jedi apprentices and retired padawans who lucked out of Order 66.

 

Weak Sith are still Sith. Most Jedi were weak compared to Yoda, Mace, Anakin or Obi-Wan. That doesn't make them any less Jedi.

 

They are, otherwise Luke wouldn't mention the apprentices Ben took with him when he turned. I'd put my money on them being the KoR.

 

Yeah, I'm sure they are or at least were. This was mentioned in TFA. I'm just saying I don't know if the movies will even bother acknowledging them anymore; Either writing them off as having died or just ignore them. With Abrams coming back I'd assume maybe they would, but then you have a bunch of Sith and one would-be Jedi.

 

And how did that work out for Snoke? Oh yeah, bissected and Kylo Ren declaring that he was going to raze everything and build anew.

 

Except he razed nothing and just stepped into Snoke's shoes. Yup. Sith tend to kill their masters and take their place. Classic Sith move. Basically what Vader would have tried if Luke joined him. Kudos, Kylo, for out Sithing Vader.

 

New canon material implies the reverse. The Empire was a tool for his ambition instead of his goal. As we don't know anything about Snoke, I will admit that I was theorizing.

 

So what?... After the every last Jedi is wiped out Palpatine was going to do what? Fade into the sunset like Luke? Was Palpatine the last member of the Star Cabal? The dude craved power like all Sith. It's comical seeing you try to act like a Sith in the absence of Jedi have no purpose or goals in life.

 

Fat lot of good "power" would do to her without at least the skill to use them. Snoke's word could be interpreted both your way and my way, on this neither of us is right until someone with actual authority clears it up.

 

Fat lot it would do for Luke in ep4, but he got trained. Rey should have got trained. It's bad, lazy, shortcut taking writing on the part of Rian Johnson. I think Abrams planned on Rey having been trained prior. You're not seriously trying to excuse this completely amateurish fan fiction Mary Sue writing are you? LOL. I'm not interested in "interpretation". If the force can train people Matrix style then why wasn't there a magic OP'd savior to detect and stop Sidious? It sure as hell wasn't Anakin. He needed training. Luke needed training. Yoda needed training. Every force user in the history of Star Wars (canon or not) needed training. Heightened instincts and intuition is one thing, but telekinesis? Mind control? Come on, bro. Enough excuses.

 

When? How? I keep reading that but it's never really implied anywhere. Not even in the book which has quite a few additional material.

 

I mentioned the stuff in my last post.

 

Luke pulled his lightsaber to his hand in ESB without training. Also shot the Death Star's exhaust port by instinct without much more training the failing to blind-parry a training remote. And he learns to lift rocks before Yoda "shows" him anything.

 

ESB takes place 3 years after ANH. And Luke did start his training. He had a foundation and years to get to that point. TLJ takes place immediately after TFA. Not that that matters seeing as Rey does this--AND MORE--in TFA. The more fitting comparison would be Luke beating Darth Vader on the moisture farm and saving his aunt and uncle having never even meet Obi-Wan.

 

Not really. The "What girl?" line and what follows is simply his reaction to the "awakening" of Rey. He's felt it and he knows that Finn wasn't it so when he hears that "a girl" helped him escape Jakku he deduces that she's the Force-Sensitive one because it's how it usually goes. Then as shown in TLJ, Kylo was probably intent on killing Snoke for a long time and he was obsessed with Rey because he wanted someone at this side to do it and after.

 

Kylo already knows she is the girl in question. He already knows she is force sensitive. So saying those words at that moment at the end of the film makes no sense in the context you're trying to force it in. He says, "It is you" implying that she is confirmed as someone he is aware of. As if that moment removed all doubt. Like when Peter in the movie Hook flies and Rufio says, "It is you". Essentially, affirming to himself that he was Peter Pan. Where prior to this he wasn't really sure this grown man was the Peter Pan.

 

As far was what TLJ sets up, it's irrelevant to TFA as Johnson dumped those plot threads. TLJ contradicting TFA doesn't negate what was set up in TFA. It just demonstrates that Rian Johnson gave no F's about TFA.

 

Can't Rey just be stubborn and terribly naïve?

 

No.

 

Everything else in the film shows that she's a very trusting person who is stubborn as hell. If she was really "programmed" to want to return to Jakku then just a few words from Maz wouldn't have done anything.

 

Jakku was a piece of **** planet she didn't even like. If she always knew the truth, as Rian Johnson claims, then why would she ever expect them to return? Why would she even want to reunite with them after all that time? Then she's on this tropical planet with water, people she likes and a whole universe to see and she wants to go back to salvaging junk in a dry dessert for Unkar Plunk (who would probably hurt her if she ever returned) and barely getting by on protein packs. **** of here with that nonsense.

 

Maz didn't change her mind. Prior to getting captured and mind probed she planned to return to Jakku after getting the Death St.. um, Star Killer plans to the Reb... Resistance.

 

Again, no indication of prior training, she's just resisting him by instinct. And even then she mostly fails because Kylo is aware of the truth of her parents in TLJ and he could have only gotten it from her.

 

And instinct told her how to control others' minds? You are trying so hard to reconcile this piss poor writing aren't you? That ability was never even addressed as a thing. She just pulls that out of her arse.

 

Yes, a J.J. Abrams mystery box. Johnson took that and resolved it with elements present in TFA (All of those points above, as you can see, could be explained with your interpretation or my own.).

 

No, I can't see. I do see a person desperately trying to reconcile something that cannot be reconciled.

 

If TFA was really setting up those reveals for Rey, how come I'd interpreted the film pretty much the way TLJ turned out? Did I make up elements?

 

You didn't, Captain Hindsight. You're saying it now... after the fact. I tried looking up some past post of yours on the subject following TFA, but I couldn't find any. Can you direct me to any post you've made stating your position shortly after TFA released? Or even just sometime prior to TLJ's release?

 

That's reaching. We have no clear information on the Praetorian Guards and Kylo is shown to be even more unhinged and unstable in TLJ. That wouldn't help him. The whole film shows him descending further and further, losing control completely.

 

Well, ****. Since he's even more unbalanced than when untrained Rey beat him I guess that means Snoke is so weak Rey should have been able to take him seeing as Kylo at his *******st was able to "out-force" Snoke and kill him. I would have thought it would take a pretty focused mind to do that but... Ugh, I'm not even going to bother unraveling the mental gymnastic you have weaved to make this movie make sense to you.

 

Rucka wrote "Before the Awakening" and while Finn is depicted as martially competent, he's incapable of social interaction, unwillinh to kill civilians and prone to disobedience.

 

Yeah, that's the one I'm talking about. I specifically said the prequel. He was disobedient in that he had a conscience. He was still the best of the best in terms of skill, leadership and intellect. And, yes, his social skills should be weak considering his upbringing. Instead we got a guy cracking jokes, flirting with girls with a sense of chivalry as if females in the First Order were dainty little princesses that need their hands held and male protection. Any humor on Finn's part should be as a the straight man.

 

And he's the same in TFA.

 

LOL.

 

Check the sequence where Poe is shown chain killing TIEs on Takodana but look at Finn instead. Once he stops using the lightsaber and picks up a blaster rifle he's trained with all his life, he manages to chain three kill-shots one-handed (With a weapon meant to be used with two hands) and misses only a single shot in total. The movie just doesn't give Finn a lot of chances to shine (Giving him two fights with a weapon he doesn't know how to use, the lightsaber.)

 

Excuse me? Weapon he doesn't know how to use... <facepalm>. But Rey does? OK.

 

Anyway, an intelligent person would have picked up a gun at the first opportunity (like right after he stabbed the first guy). Second, Finn "chained" two guys, both pretty much at point blank range. Hardly a grand display of skill. The third guy was afterwards and also dead in front of him charging forward idiotically. I'm not sure where you get that the weapon needs to be fired with two hands. If it was heavy enough to require that he would have been using two hands because it would be necessary just to hold it up. He held it as effortlessly as a pistol. Are you arguing he has superhuman strength?

 

But again, I'd like to know how exactly you came to the conclusion that Before the Awakening was written before Boyega was cast... when Poe Dameron is a major character in it, with his own story, and he only became a major part of TFA when Oscar Isaac complained to Abrams about dying in every movie he'd made recently which, combined with his strong performance, changed his fate from dying during the crash on Jakku to miraculously surviving and become a lead character.

 

You're assuming Poe's part was written at the same time as Finn's. As opposed to being written later. And I told you exactly why I came to that conclusion. You don't have to agree with my conclusion or reasoning, but I told you my reasoning. If you think it's just a coincidence that the serious character written without race in mind (even thought we know the default race in Hollywood movies is white) was reduced to a black stereotype you're welcome to that opinion.

[Leklor]

Won't be able to quote/answer everything since I'm on my phone but addressing some points:

-You try to frame the "discussion" around "Before the Awakening" as you being obviously right... because yet ignore everything that indicates you are wrong (Boyega being cast in April 2014 at the latest, the announcement of BtA in late September 2015, Greg Rucka bein busy on previous projects meaning he didn't wrote Finn's story before Boyega was cast. Also logic, why write a short story collection more than an entire year before the film is out?)

-Blaster rifles have always been stated to be unwieldy and we've rarely seen anyone make an accurate running one-handed shot. So yeah, skill.

-I would gladly link you my posts regarding TFA theories on the IMDB boards but they don't exist anymore. I sincerely admire your pretentiouness that allows to call me a liar because it undermines your rant. What gives you the right to declare me a liar to suit your beliefs?

-Elements pointing towards Rey knowing the truth were in TFA (Maz makes her admit as much), the fact that after Takodana she never brings up her parents and blasts off in search of Luke without hesitation.

-Trying to convince me that Rey's power has to come from bloodline won't get you anywhere, because the Prequels exist and in it, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Mace Windu come from Force-Blinf parents (Or else they'd have been scouted, trained and not have had kids.)

-The film never implies that Kylo Ren personally knows Rey, otherwise he would not call her "The Girl" until he learns who she is.

-It's implied that Rey "figures out" Mind Trick by turning Kylo's mind probe against her.

-When I say Kylo and Snoke are not Sith, I mean they don't use the name "Sith" which means that the Prophecy of the Chosen One is still fulfilled since the Dark Side isn't being "represented" by Sith anymore while in Legends, the Sith were very much around and very much DS.

Rest is too long to address here.

 

Edit: Regarding Rey's parentage, I knew she was neither a Skywalker nor a Solo in early 2016 when Claudia Gray's Bloodline detailled the pre-TFA timeline. The only "theory" I believed possible was that she was Anakin reincarnated with his old memories "leaking" in her mind but the fighting style didn't fit so I wasn't that convinced.

Edit 2:

Notice the date? 21 December 2016. If someone managed to put out a convincing case for Rey "Nobody-Important" a year ago, how arrogant can you be to declare that I lied to you when I said I had figured that out too? Edited December 25, 2017 by Leklor

[Otleuveh]

Chest shaved kylo. Edited December 26, 2017 by Otleuveh

[NuSeC]

Chest shaved kylo.

 

Mary Poppins Leia

[JediAkemi]

Chest shaved kylo.

 

CinemaWins: "Adam Driver's workout routine" -ding-

[Adam_J_K]

It is a single line in a long rant and it is not dismissing women or any races. It is saying the opposite if anything. so stop acting like it was some "trigger" for people who are not capable of reading something on the internet because of "feelings."

 

That line had nothing to do with the rest of your rant, so why put it in there? The fact that you did informs us that you have strong, negative, feelings about Social Justice Warriors. You phrased it like it's a bad thing to push for more equality, and that this movie is bad for (in your mind) doing so. Your original post is written like you're someone from the Alt-right who made up some reasons to not like this movie that aren't bigoted, but then you couldn't control your emotions, and had a little outburst.

 

Furthermore, what you've said here is also indicative of the Alt-right. They're known for being unsympathetic to people who need trigger warnings. You're mocking those people. Heh, in a way, you're acting like someone who is undergoing a minor triggered reaction.

[Sportiva]

That line had nothing to do with the rest of your rant, so why put it in there? The fact that you did informs us that you have strong, negative, feelings about Social Justice Warriors. You phrased it like it's a bad thing to push for more equality, and that this movie is bad for (in your mind) doing so. Your original post is written like you're someone from the Alt-right who made up some reasons to not like this movie that aren't bigoted, but then you couldn't control your emotions, and had a little outburst.

 

Furthermore, what you've said here is also indicative of the Alt-right. They're known for being unsympathetic to people who need trigger warnings. You're mocking those people. Heh, in a way, you're acting like someone who is undergoing a minor triggered reaction.

 

This is the most idiotic post I've seen on these forums ... saddens me that an inconsequential (albeit fun) nerd-rage against (or for) a Star Wars movie must devolve into politics. Maybe I am naive or maybe I am old ... or maybe I am old and my mind has been addled & naive by time ... but I remember when we held opinions based on our own individual thoughts rather the need to associated with or to be lumped into a certain political view. F-ing buffoonery on both sides.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Sportiva

[Dayshadow]

You try to frame the "discussion" around "Before the Awakening" as you being obviously right... because yet ignore everything that indicates you are wrong (Boyega being cast in April 2014 at the latest, the announcement of BtA in late September 2015, Greg Rucka bein busy on previous projects meaning he didn't wrote Finn's story before Boyega was cast. Also logic, why write a short story collection more than an entire year before the film is out?)

 

The Force Awakens book does not even make sense within this context. Finn is not treated any differently in that book than in the movie. It is Before the Awakening that sets up his backstory. And I understand that I referred to it as a novelization, but that was a mistaken choice of words. This is not the only discussion I've had about it so I had sworn I used the term prequel here, but didn't. There are no details in TFA book about his life as a stormtrooper prior to the events of TFA. That is in BtA, not the TFA book.

 

Furthermore, you don't know when Rucka wrote Finn's story. You're assuming, which is fine because ultimately we are speculating, but you aren't dropping any facts like you seem to think you are. Again, you can disagree all you want. BtA would hardly be a time consuming task for a professional writer. What is evident is that the information originally given to Rucka was one thing and what Kathleen Kennedy finalized on for the movie was something different. You don't have to believe it was a racially motivated change. I happen to believe it was as it's stereotypical portrayal of blacks by white Hollywood.

 

-Blaster rifles have always been stated to be unwieldy and we've rarely seen anyone make an accurate running one-handed shot. So yeah, skill.

 

Just ****** direction. The idea that him shooting some random nobodies at practically point blank range in such a casual manner was a conscious attempt by JJ Abram's to demonstrate his skill with a blaster is laughable. You honestly think Abrams was thinking, "this is an unwieldy weapon and everyone watching will comprehend this and recognize Finn's uber leet skillz". The moment is completely forgettable and doesn't stand out at all. It wasn't even a great shot. He fired multiple shots before the "headshot" (which was not a headshot by the way). Compare it to Han Solo's blaster usage where he kills a stormtrooper without even looking, which was clearly meant to stand out. That was an intentional shot meant to demonstrate skill. Either you've never used a heavy rifle or you think Finn has superhuman strength. If it's a two handed weapon he will have to use it with two hands. Period. Which again indicates bad direction if it's supposed to be a two hand weapon because he holds it like a plastic toy.

 

-I would gladly link you my posts regarding TFA theories on the IMDB boards but they don't exist anymore. I sincerely admire your pretentiouness that allows to call me a liar because it undermines your rant. What gives you the right to declare me a liar to suit your beliefs?

 

I think you are a liar because you are lying. There is no way you came away from TFA thinking Rey's past was presented as normal and unambiguous. That is complete and utter bs and you know it.

 

-Elements pointing towards Rey knowing the truth were in TFA (Maz makes her admit as much), the fact that after Takodana she never brings up her parents and blasts off in search of Luke without hesitation.

 

Maz only states the obvious. The parents aren't coming back. Obviously, Rey knows this intellectually. But despite that she is still compelled to wait. It's not like Maz convinced her of something she was completely unaware of and this changed her mind. She told Maz she wanted nothing to do with any of this business and stormed out after their talk. She would still have gone back to Jakku if Kylo didn't capture her. Why even link the child scene to the force vision other than to paint the picture that there was significance regarding who left her on Jakku and under what circumstances? It is the voice of her child self protesting that leads her to the lightsaber. This was no random fluke. This was explicitly put there by the director.

 

She knew the truth on some level, but still decided she'd rather go back to a ****** planet with a fat alien who's going to be pissed at her and barely scrap by because she's expecting her junky parents who sold her for drinking money to come back after 18 or so years? That sounds reasonable to you? Really? Really? You will say just about anything to defend this unplanned, unfocused mess of a trilogy.

 

After the mind probe undid whatever was done to her... After magically unlocking not only her powers, but the ability to use them expertly and know that such abilities were even a thing... And subsequently becoming a Jedi master within a few minutes and beating a trained Sith, then--only then--was the whole going back to Jakku to wait on her parents thing dropped.

 

-Trying to convince me that Rey's power has to come from bloodline won't get you anywhere, because the Prequels exist and in it, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Mace Windu come from Force-Blinf parents (Or else they'd have been scouted, trained and not have had kids.)

 

LOL. When did I ever state her powers have to come from a bloodline? Please quote the exact text on my part which lead you to that conclusion. Again, look at the game forum you're on. How could anyone here possibly believe that?

 

-The film never implies that Kylo Ren personally knows Rey, otherwise he would not call her "The Girl" until he learns who she is.

 

He knew OF her. As in, he was aware there was a young savant at the Jedi Academy that was sent away because she had too much power for a mind so young and undeveloped. Not that he knew her on a personal level. He would have been a young teen when she was there at preschool age.

 

-It's implied that Rey "figures out" Mind Trick by turning Kylo's mind probe against her.

 

No, it's implied her previously suppressed skills which she had already learned prior where unlocked. Someone that powerful would have accidently used the force long before the events of the movie. An unshackled Rey is so powerful she'd have grabbed that shuttle with the force on instinct alone, as you'd say, and forced her parent's ship down. Plunk would have lost an arm trying to hold an angry untrained force wielder so powerful she can defeat a trained Sith with herself having zero training whatsoever.

 

-Edit: Regarding Rey's parentage, I knew she was neither a Skywalker nor a Solo in early 2016 when Claudia Gray's Bloodline detailled the pre-TFA timeline. The only "theory" I beliebed possible was that she was Anakin reincarnated with his old memories "leaking" in her mind but the fighting style didn't fit so I wasn't that convinced.

 

I never thought she was a Skywalker, Solo or Kenobi. That would make zero sense. If she was related to any known character she could have been the grand daughter of Palpatine theoretically. He had lots of concubines I believe. And she has that "fancy" imperial accent (although realistically I think she'd have lost it). Her parentage in and of itself never seemed important. What stood out was the circumstances surrounding why she was left there. This compounded by her instantaneous mastery of the force after a mind probe paints a picture of a obscured past blocked from her memory and someone blocking her connection to the Force; that connection reestablished unintentionally by Kylo. The assumption by many is that her parents are the ones who left her. I personally thought maybe Luke left her and either didn't let her parents know because he didn't want to risk them telling her about her powers and undoing the mind block or her parents may have already been deceased and she was discovered in an orphanage.

[NuSeC]

That line had nothing to do with the rest of your rant, so why put it in there? The fact that you did informs us that you have strong, negative, feelings about Social Justice Warriors. You phrased it like it's a bad thing to push for more equality, and that this movie is bad for (in your mind) doing so. Your original post is written like you're someone from the Alt-right who made up some reasons to not like this movie that aren't bigoted, but then you couldn't control your emotions, and had a little outburst.

 

Furthermore, what you've said here is also indicative of the Alt-right. They're known for being unsympathetic to people who need trigger warnings. You're mocking those people. Heh, in a way, you're acting like someone who is undergoing a minor triggered reaction.

 

Stop crying... I mean, just stop.

 

I have answered this multiple times yet you keep on.

 

Out of context. Who in my rant is being abused or taken advantage of? Who am I being unsympathetic to? Just stop. You are looking for reasons to whine. And no, I will not throttle my opinion to stop someone from being offended.

 

You phrased it like it's a bad thing to push for more equality, and that this movie is bad for (in your mind) doing so.

 

Show me where or move on.

Edited December 27, 2017 by NuSeC

[Leklor]

*Snip*

 

So your entire point is basically "You're a liar because I've decided so."

 

Okay, discussion's done on my part, I think I've given you enough time to at least make a convincing argument beyond "This is my interpretation, it is therefore the absolute truth of what was implied in previous stories"

 

I SHOWED YOU a goddamned theory video from DECEMBER 2016 showing that people had guessed Rey was a nobody who'd always lived on Jakku, which turned out to be true, and still you persists with your accusations, calling me a liar because it derails you crusade against the movie (I'm sorry, at this point, this is very much a "crusade" since you push your version at the detriment of contradicting elements, you have long stopped caring about debate or opposing opinions.)

 

You want to be correct, then be so. But I won't involve myself into this wall-talking exercise. I'm done. You have no point to make beyond "I'm right because I am and you are wrong because I've decided so."

Bye.

 

P.S: Regarding Before the Awakening, I happen to have a certain amount of knowledge as to how licensed litterature works. For a publisher to order a story more than two years before its publication is not just bad business, it's an open door to the author pressuring them for (a lot of) additional money. So the only believable (And probable) reason why Rucka wrote Finn as competent is that he wasn't aware of how he was in the film an assumed that he'd be competent and composed like the rest of the on-screen troopers, beyond his skin color. Finn being black may have been why he's portrayed as a person lacking both nerves and variety of skill but that doesn't mean in any way that "Finn's Story" was written before Boyega was cast and that Rucka imagined him as white in it.

[NuSeC]

"This is my interpretation, it is therefore the absolute truth of what was implied in previous stories"

 

 

The thing is... so much of this is left to interpretation.

Rey = elite force user with no prior training. Unlike every other actual Jedi/force user.

It feels like the "everyone gets a trophy" thing going around. Hard work, dedication and commitment mean little to nothing here. The force just "wills" you to be a BA no real training needed. That whole thing about being too old or getting them young to mold and train them is just well, non existent here.

 

I have mentioned many of my other issues in the original OP. But I agree, nobody should be calling people a liar here.

 

I think what it is, when you have strong emotions or connections to something it tends to grind a bad spot when something like this is obviously put in to move the plot along but does a disservice to the actual standing lore.