Spoilers and why I did not like TLJ

[AlienEyeTX]

Rey = elite force user with no prior training. Unlike every other actual Jedi/force user.

 

Maybe that's what makes her so special. Someone strong in the Force, with intuition of how to use it, once she knows that she can. Just because it's different, doesn't mean it's wrong.

 

Also, we still have another movie to go. Maybe we'll get some more answers before all is said and done. We should really judge the complete body of work. Until then, just enjoy what's on the screen. Realism and common sense have never been the strong points of this series.

[Leklor]

The thing is... so much of this is left to interpretation.

Rey = elite force user with no prior training. Unlike every other actual Jedi/force user.

It feels like the "everyone gets a trophy" thing going around. Hard work, dedication and commitment mean little to nothing here. The force just "wills" you to be a BA no real training needed. That whole thing about being too old or getting them young to mold and train them is just well, non existent here.

 

I have mentioned many of my other issues in the original OP. But I agree, nobody should be calling people a liar here.

 

I think what it is, when you have strong emotions or connections to something it tends to grind a bad spot when something like this is obviously put in to move the plot along but does a disservice to the actual standing lore.

 

That's kind of my point. It was open to interpretation in TFA, it's not anymore with TLJ and the answer "chosen" by the writer is coherent with elements of TFA.

Whether or not someone likes it doesn't change the fact that it's logical and works.

My personal preference would have been for Rey to have been bound to Anakin's Force Ghost and her powers and skills came from him giving his memories to help her.

That didn't happen but it's not like I'm angry it didn't (Mostly because it's silly.)

 

As for the lack of training, for all we know, the first Jedi also didn't have to train either.

Maybe it's the Force's way to rush things, since there was no Light Side person to train her available and it (The Force) needed to reestablish the balance. The Force would "know" that Luke has cut himself from it and therefore might reject Rey.

[AlienEyeTX]

That's kind of my point. It was open to interpretation in TFA, it's not anymore with TLJ and the answer "chosen" by the writer is coherent with elements of TFA.

Whether or not someone likes it doesn't change the fact that it's logical and works.

My personal preference would have been for Rey to have been bound to Anakin's Force Ghost and her powers and skills came from him giving his memories to help her.

That didn't happen but it's not like I'm angry it didn't (Mostly because it's silly.)

 

As for the lack of training, for all we know, the first Jedi also didn't have to train either.

Maybe it's the Force's way to rush things, since there was no Light Side person to train her available and it (The Force) needed to reestablish the balance. The Force would "know" that Luke has cut himself from it and therefore might reject Rey.

 

That actually makes sense, since Luke has shut himself off from the Force. Rey's sudden awakening explains why she has never been able to use these powers before. Yes, she could fight before, but that's only part of it. The Force awakened her intuition to her power. That is why Snoke is surprised she is the source of the light side power. He thought it was Luke coming back.

 

In TFA, when Kylo is probing her mind, she feels something... he even states that he feels it, too. Perhaps when he makes the connection to her, she can feel how that connection is made. That is how the 2-way street is established and she sees his idolization of Vader. That's how she is able to grasp the concept of how it works and test it on the storm trooper.

Edited December 27, 2017 by AlienEyeTX

[Dayshadow]

So your entire point is basically "You're a liar because I've decided so."

 

And your counter is, in regarding a single part--not the entire post--is, believe my complete and utter nonsense because I say so. Spare me your pathetic whining about the mean man on the internet who doesn't believe you when you make silly statements. Now you're tucking tail and running because you know you have no sensible argument. Hence, whenever the issue of Rey's *MASTERY* of the force is brought up the immediate strawman turns to Rey's *POWER* in the force. Because her mastery of the force is unexplainable and in and of itself alludes to a shadowed past. You have to ignore this to come to a conclusion that there is nothing odd about her past. Anything less than "JJ Abrams wrote a terrible script and it's just bad writing" doesn't make for a viable argument.

 

If you can't take the heat you're best to stay out of the kitchen. See ya.

[Leklor]

And your counter is, in regarding a single part--not the entire post--is, believe my complete and utter nonsense because I say so.

 

Absolutely not.

You called me a liar on the issue of Rey's parentage.

I showed you a Theory video from DECEMBER 2016 (I'm using caps so you don't miss the date) that showed that people had already interpreted (Turns out correctly) elements presented in TFA to deduce the truth.

You had the audacity to keep calling me a liar despite that.

Face the music, random Internet stranger: You call someone a liar because you were wrong and couldn't admit it. That person proved to you that a lot of people had come to the same conclusion and your reaction was to make a fool out of yourself by repeating your baseless accustions.

 

I'll be frank: The others matters being discusses, I'll happily chalk it up as us not agreeing. I did it with NuSec who completely disagree on the film with me and others.

But on the issue of calling me a liar, that's different. You're not insulting a movie I thought decent or questioning my view of a plot element, you're attacking me, personally. So I'll keep calling you out on it until you admit that you were an imbecile to baselessly call be a liar.

 

Hence, whenever the issue of Rey's *MASTERY* of the force is brought up the immediate strawman turns to Rey's *POWER* in the force. Because her mastery of the force is unexplainable and in and of itself alludes to a shadowed past.

 

No it didn't. You CHOSE to interpret it that way but TLJ pretty much spells it out. The Force powered up and skilled up Rey because there was no one to train her (Luke had cut himself from the Force) and balance needed to be restored. And beyond her raw power, Rey hasn't done anything out of the ordinary for a Jedi. She mind tricked a brainwashed soldier that spent all his life receiving propaganda in his face (After herself being on the receiving end of a Force Mind Rape and overcoming it through the sheer strenght of Daisy Ridley's overacting). The rest of her displays are just power, not mastery. Snatching the saber instead of Kylo? That was her stronger than him. Flying the ship and fighting? If you've really read Before the Awakening then you should know Rey has some experience in both those field.

So again, where in the movie does her "mastery" implies she was previously trained? And when? By whom? Why? None of those elements have even the slightest bit of an answer which points towards it being the wrong "solution" to the Rey enigma.

So stop pretending that YOUR interpretation is correct when you don't even have elements to support them. I'm open to people debatting mine but not by calling me a liar or dismissing them out of hand because it bothers them. And that seems to have been your MO: Something doesn't "agree" with your vision, it is therefore not true/inconsequential/misinterpreted.

[NuSeC]

That's kind of my point. It was open to interpretation in TFA, it's not anymore with TLJ and the answer "chosen" by the writer is coherent with elements of TFA.

Whether or not someone likes it doesn't change the fact that it's logical and works.

My personal preference would have been for Rey to have been bound to Anakin's Force Ghost and her powers and skills came from him giving his memories to help her.

That didn't happen but it's not like I'm angry it didn't (Mostly because it's silly.)

 

As for the lack of training, for all we know, the first Jedi also didn't have to train either.

Maybe it's the Force's way to rush things, since there was no Light Side person to train her available and it (The Force) needed to reestablish the balance. The Force would "know" that Luke has cut himself from it and therefore might reject Rey.

 

Not really logical with everything we have been told, not to me. Like I said. generations of force users trained in the force to be good with it, the same with sith. To learn to hone and focus the force. Luke, as strong as the force is and Anakin as well, heck... even Yoda, all had to hone their skills via instruction and direction. This went on for generations. EVEN FOR SOMEONE BORN FROM THE FORCE ITSELF. It does not fit. Saying it does because it is in the movie does not make it logical when there is no synergy with existing lore. A round peg in a square hole.

 

The first Jedi were force sensitive but did not start off just knowing how to do things. They focused and worked together and shared what they had learned from each other. A far cry from it "awakening" in someone and bam... instant BA force user. To me, this is something that is not simply just wrote off or dismissed. It is a plot hole. It does not fit with the preexisting lore.

 

This is moving the lore goalposts... Rey can be a nobody, Anakin was, that is not my gripe. However, Anakin also trained under Kenobi for YEARS before then training under the Emperor himself. I mean you of course are free to believe whatever you wish. To me this rips the lore to shreds and does it in about 2 and a half hours.

[NuSeC]

Maybe that's what makes her so special. Someone strong in the Force, with intuition of how to use it, once she knows that she can. Just because it's different, doesn't mean it's wrong.

No, that is why people are calling her a Mary Sue...

 

https://fanlore.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

"Mary Sue type characters do exist in both fan fiction and canon. The main difficulty with true Mary Sue stories is that they often cause canon characters, established story lines, and the very inner consistency of the canon's reality, to behave wildly out of bounds. "

[Leklor]

The first Jedi were force sensitive but did not start off just knowing how to do things. They focused and worked together and shared what they had learned from each other

 

That's the Legends first Jedi.

We have exactly no info on the Canon Jedi.

Considering how TLJ pretty much changed everything we know about the Force, I'm going to consider that until they actually reveal anything, the concept of an "awakening" may not actually be a new occurence.

As for Jedi Training (And Sith Training) I personally always saw it as more of a way to "direct" the studen towards a chosen path.

The idea that Force Users require training to use relatively basic powers has often been challenged in Legends and in Canon now, that's why it doesn't bother me.

While it can seem like training is essential, we're never told word for word that it is an absolute truth. Just because we'd never been shown another possibility doesn't mean that possibility is canon-breaking, at least IMO.

I wonder if it has to do with my own attempts to create a fictionnal setting and trying to introduce new ideas that seem to contradict previous lore. That may have made me a bit too tolerant towards retcons (I don't like the idea that this debate opposes close-mindedness vs. open-mindedness. I think it's more an issue about how we respectively perceive stories and their structure. There's no wrong or right view, you said it yourself.)

[NuSeC]

Considering how TLJ pretty much changed everything we know about the Force,

 

Bingo.

[that_Spartan_IV]

 

The main difficulty with true Mary Sue stories is that they often cause canon characters, established story lines, and the very inner consistency of the canon's reality, to behave wildly out of bounds."

 

This pretty much sums up both The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi.

[Leklor]

This pretty much sums up both The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi.

 

Except when the Canon is rewritten or expanded, as it definitely was in TLJ.

I could understand the Mary Sue accusations in TFA (Mostly because her skills were implied instead of explained, nobody should need to read Before the Awakening to know she can pilot and fight pretty well) but in TLJ it's just ridiculous to hold on to those accusations. Rey is shown to be a lesser fighter than Kylo Ren (He takes on twice as much of the Praetorian Guard as she does and kills them much quicker), she gets bested by Luke who doesn't even use a proper weapon (And kind of cheats because she whips out a lightsaber against his ripped-off antena) and is shown to be far easier to read for Snoke than Kylo is.

Apart from that, she lifts some rocks and shoots with one of the Falcon's turrets. Not canon-breaking level.

(Also, Chewbacca's impressive performance on Crait kind of invalidates accusations that Rey is some god-tiered pilot she shouldn't be since Chewie is just as good as her so at best she's Han's level. If even that.)

 

But then, to be fair, Star Wars has always been full of Mary Sue, especially the Legends books (Which included Luke among their illustrious ranks, right beside his wife, several of his apprentices...) so Rey is just continuing a franchise-long tradition.

[NuSeC]

the Canon is rewritten or expanded, as it definitely was in TLJ.

 

Bingo again.

 

So when you have to rewrite EXISTING CANON to inject another character, people should not be shocked when the term Mary Sue comes out.

 

You said so yourself. They had to change canon in order for the story to even work. The argument on the other side of the table is that the canon was fine and it was structured. Disney has changed what Lucas built. It is not my SW anymore, it is yours.

[DarthDymond]

Bingo again.

 

So when you have to rewrite EXISTING CANON to inject another character, people should not be shocked when the term Mary Sue comes out.

 

You said so yourself. They had to change canon in order for the story to even work. The argument on the other side of the table is that the canon was fine and it was structured. Disney has changed what Lucas built. It is not my SW anymore, it is yours.

Wait, is this "rewriting" of existing canon all about how the Force is working with respect to Rey? Because I think once that canon introduced a freaking virgin birth into the mix, all bets were off with respect to what the Force can and can't do.

 

If the Force had some concrete rules set out, and those rules only started getting bent or broken with Rey, that'd be one thing. But it has always been vaguely defined and amorphous, and I believe every single SW movie (with the possible exception of AotC) has added to and tweaked what the Force can do and how it works.

[NuSeC]

Wait, is this "rewriting" of existing canon all about how the Force is working with respect to Rey? Because I think once that canon introduced a freaking virgin birth into the mix, all bets were off with respect to what the Force can and can't do.

 

If the Force had some concrete rules set out, and those rules only started getting bent or broken with Rey, that'd be one thing. But it has always been vaguely defined and amorphous, and I believe every single SW movie (with the possible exception of AotC) has added to and tweaked what the Force can do and how it works.

 

It is the very fact that Lucas gave us someone as powerful as Anakin, born from the force, we saw his rise and fall. The training, the people he learned from. From being a petty slave on a back water world that contested in pod races (and was not winning) to being one of if not the most dominating forces in the galaxy. All due to training and learning from those before you. Yes, even the guy born from the force itself had to be taught how to use it.

 

That is the crux of it.

 

A tweak or a small change is one thing, a total redesign or "rewritten" even is something else entirely.

 

Edit to add:

 

*Some of Yoda's last words "Luke, the force runs strong in your family, pass on what you have learned."

 

This is all Yoda's fault.

Edited December 28, 2017 by NuSeC

[Adam_J_K]

Show me where or move on.

 

OK, let me look for it... oh here it is in the first post:

 

The SJW is strong in this move.

 

There you go getting political right off the bat, and I think I hear some crying too:

 

This movie really killed SW for me.

 

And again:

 

Star Wars is ruined for me now.

 

And that's just your first post; so as someone recently told me:

Stop crying... I mean, just stop.

 

[NuSeC]

OK, let me look for it... oh here it is in the first post:

 

You forgot the end of that line in your selective copy and paste I will include it for context that you chose to omit for obvious reasons.

 

 

The SJW is strong in this move. "All men are dumb, weak or overly dramatic/aggressive."

 

Hmm, that does not seem to fit the whole "Does not like equality" lecture you were attempting to push.

 

There you go getting political right off the bat, and I think I hear some crying too:

 

I go "political off the bat" by posting this OP and over half way down the rant about plot holes and bad story I state the line I have pasted here for you to read again.

 

And again:

And again? The best you come up with is something you have post out of context. You have a reading comprehension issue and a strawman issue.

And that's just your first post; so as someone recently told me:

 

I'll say again, stop crying.

So this...

 

 

The SJW is strong in this move. "All men are dumb, weak or overly dramatic/aggressive."

 

Equals

You phrased it like it's a bad thing to push for more equality, and that this movie is bad for (in your mind) doing so.

I am asking for clarity and laughs.

[Leklor]

Bingo again.

 

So when you have to rewrite EXISTING CANON to inject another character, people should not be shocked when the term Mary Sue comes out.

 

You said so yourself. They had to change canon in order for the story to even work. The argument on the other side of the table is that the canon was fine and it was structured. Disney has changed what Lucas built. It is not my SW anymore, it is yours.

 

Actually I said "rewritten or expanded"

To me TLJ is clearly a case of Canon expansion rather the rewritting.

Never have we seen anything in the previous canon that stated that the Force needed training.

We saw the Jedi who had made a tradition of it, so it was logical. And the Sith who were leading a millenia long shadow-war and needed to stay on the level and surpass them. And then we saw Luke training to face Vader.

But as I mentionned, in both the trilogies, we had prospective students AND willing masters. While Yoda wasn't sure about Luke, he mostly trolled him to test him then still showed him the rope.

As of TFA, Rey has no potential teacher at all, and since the Force is now clarified as an active entity in shaping the destiny of the Galaxy, it's not an issue.

Honestly, you want to know what convinced me that Rey had no prior training and was being led and hand-held by the Force?

It was Chirrut in Rogue One, aka the blind guy who can't use the Force but whose destiny was, ultimately, to reach that lever on Scarrif and activate it. Once he was done with that, his "luck" vanished. Same with Bodhi Rook who was claimed by Saw to be doomed to become insane after going through his tentacle **** routine yet remained sane, flew Rogue One to Scarrif, boosted the signal tower then was exploded. Or Gallen who lived long enough after being almost poin-blanked by a proton torpedo to give Jyn a few parting words that made her determined to find the plans.

More than ever, Rogue One confirmed that the Force was not just a passive power and that it was basically "writing" the story (Something Obi-Wan alluded to in ANH). When I saw that, it convinced me that Rey was never trained before and was simply getting hacks to rebalance the galaxy.

[NuSeC]

Actually I said "rewritten or expanded"

To me TLJ is clearly a case of Canon expansion rather the rewritting.

Never have we seen anything in the previous canon that stated that the Force needed training.

We saw the Jedi who had made a tradition of it, so it was logical. And the Sith who were leading a millenia long shadow-war and needed to stay on the level and surpass them. And then we saw Luke training to face Vader.

But as I mentionned, in both the trilogies, we had prospective students AND willing masters. While Yoda wasn't sure about Luke, he mostly trolled him to test him then still showed him the rope.

As of TFA, Rey has no potential teacher at all, and since the Force is now clarified as an active entity in shaping the destiny of the Galaxy, it's not an issue.

Honestly, you want to know what convinced me that Rey had no prior training and was being led and hand-held by the Force?

It was Chirrut in Rogue One, aka the blind guy who can't use the Force but whose destiny was, ultimately, to reach that lever on Scarrif and activate it. Once he was done with that, his "luck" vanished. Same with Bodhi Rook who was claimed by Saw to be doomed to become insane after going through his tentacle **** routine yet remained sane, flew Rogue One to Scarrif, boosted the signal tower then was exploded. Or Gallen who lived long enough after being almost poin-blanked by a proton torpedo to give Jyn a few parting words that made her determined to find the plans.

More than ever, Rogue One confirmed that the Force was not just a passive power and that it was basically "writing" the story (Something Obi-Wan alluded to in ANH). When I saw that, it convinced me that Rey was never trained before and was simply getting hacks to rebalance the galaxy.

 

Force sensitive is not the same as force user. You can be a force sensitive and still hardly use the force. Leia is a great example of this... well up until they dumped the whole Mary Poppins scene on us.

[AlienEyeTX]

Just because some people receive training =/= people being required to train to use the Force. The Jedi taught a way of life. They also taught fighting techniques, research, meditation, philosophy, etc. None of that is required to use the Force. It is a way of honing one's inherent skills, learning to focus, and the rest is pretty much religion.

 

Again, if someone who is strong in the Force begins to understand the nature of the Force, they may intuit what is possible to do with it. It seems that a big part of using the Force is one's ability to focus and the strength of their will. Rey has that in spades.

 

For example, Luke had to learn how to clear his mind and focus. We saw this in the ESB. Luke's problem was that he never believed what was possible to do. That was shown mostly with his failure to raise the X-wing, which Yoda did with ease. Luke didn't have to be trained to have the ability to lift the X-wing... just to focus and believe that he could.

 

So, what happens when someone already believes in what they are able to do? They don't need that extra step of training. They can already lift objects because they are willing to try before deciding if they can do it or not.

 

So, there were rumors about what Jedi could do. When Han tells Rey that it was all true, she bought into the rumors and decided try her powers once she realized that she had them. Kylo even states that she's testing the limits of her powers.

 

If you found out that you were a space sorcerer, wouldn't you try new things and keep going until you found out something wouldn't work? I sure would. And I would especially try to do things that I had heard of other people doing... just to see if it was true.

[NuSeC]

Just because some people receive training =/= people being required to train to use the Force. The Jedi taught a way of life. They also taught fighting techniques, research, meditation, philosophy, etc. None of that is required to use the Force. It is a way of honing one's inherent skills, learning to focus, and the rest is pretty much religion.

 

Again, if someone who is strong in the Force begins to understand the nature of the Force, they may intuit what is possible to do with it. It seems that a big part of using the Force is one's ability to focus and the strength of their will. Rey has that in spades.

 

For example, Luke had to learn how to clear his mind and focus. We saw this in the ESB. Luke's problem was that he never believed what was possible to do. That was shown mostly with his failure to raise the X-wing, which Yoda did with ease. Luke didn't have to be trained to have the ability to lift the X-wing... just to focus and believe that he could.

 

So, what happens when someone already believes in what they are able to do? They don't need that extra step of training. They can already lift objects because they are willing to try before deciding if they can do it or not.

 

So, there were rumors about what Jedi could do. When Han tells Rey that it was all true, she bought into the rumors and decided try her powers once she realized that she had them. Kylo even states that she's testing the limits of her powers.

 

If you found out that you were a space sorcerer, wouldn't you try new things and keep going until you found out something wouldn't work? I sure would. And I would especially try to do things that I had heard of other people doing... just to see if it was true.

 

So the problem is they had to change the story, change the way the force was used and change the dynamic of characters to suit the story.

 

It is not what it used to be nor what it used to represent.

Training was a staple of the Jedi or Sith. Both using the force in their own ways. But both ways required training to master.

 

This movie takes all that groundwork and throws it completely out of the window.

Edited December 28, 2017 by NuSeC

[AlienEyeTX]

So the problem is they had to change the story, change the way the force was used and change the dynamic of characters to suit the story.

 

It is not what it used to be nor what it used to represent.

Training was a staple of the Jedi or Sith. Both using the force in their own ways. But both ways required training to master.

 

This movie takes all that groundwork and throws it completely out of the window.

 

But that is not at all what has happened. Rey is no master. Yes, she can use the Force and I explained why that makes sense. Now, in order for her to grow and control what she can do... yes, she needs guidance. She'll get it.

 

They haven't changed anything at all about how people use the Force. Just your perception of what was required.

[TalonVII]

But that is not at all what has happened. Rey is no master. Yes, she can use the Force and I explained why that makes sense. Now, in order for her to grow and control what she can do... yes, she needs guidance. She'll get it.

 

They haven't changed anything at all about how people use the Force. Just your perception of what was required.

 

A lot of people simply do not get the difference between raw talent/power(which Rey has) and a lot of training and experience.

 

Rey is just a prime example of a prodigy with a lot of raw ability who didn't even know she had it and has survived on raw instinct. Now that she's actually starting to get some actual guidance, it's not a shock she's leaping ahead of people.

 

She's literally River Tam of Firefly with the force.

 

But beyond that I did and I didn't like TLJ.

 

What I did:

-cinematography was outstanding,

-the score was John Williams doing what he does best,

-CGI and practical effects were outstanding,

-acting was quite good. Daisy Ridley really picked it up this time around. Mark Hamill was amazing as usual.

-Force bond with Kyle and Rey was interesting.

-Also Snoke did more this movie than the Emperor did and while slightly disappointed he not gone into too much, he still did what the plot needed.

-The light speed attack was a nice last ditch kamikaze attack. And it's literally physics at work.

-Kylo Ren while being whiny gets some props because he dared to do the one thing Vader never did. Trick his master, kill him and take power. Gotta give him props for that.

-Luke's force projection while not the kind of force power I was expecting, was actually better and more in line with who Luke was.

-Po getting checked from his wild cowboy ways and learning when to push and when not to.

-Chewie getting to show off how much of a bad*** pilot he us.

 

What I didn't.

-Jesus Leia. It was a nice attempt to show Leia's mastery of the force, but could of been so much more subtle. Could of been bridge is hit, Leia anchors herself with the force then pulls her way past the rushing air to barely make it in the door. Would of been so much more believable.

-Luke. Yes he was misused. But trying to say his moment of weakness is out of character, I must ask, did any of you REALLY watch his scenes on the second Death Star? My issues were the spear and milking scenes. Just not needed. Also he has THE WRONG GODDAMN LIGHTSABER DURING THE CONFRONTATION WITH KYLO!!!!! Also his utter lack of reaction with Han dying. And the fact he should of realized when Rey had that kind of power if he didn't step in and fix his first mistake with Rey, it could be twice as bad. But the whole "I lost my faith because I failed so badly" wasn't a bad thing. I mean if you're the total optimist and you watch your whole mission crumble, you don't just wipe it off, it hurts, it breaks you. Though I do think it should of been he went to seriously contemplate the force instead of drowning on his sorrows.

-Finn and Rose. Was just dragged out and not needed. Plus DelTorro's character, meh.

-severely under utilized characters. Phasma, Ackbar(and that was just crap how he died), and yes Snoke was under utilized. But at least he did a lot with what he was given. The others, just kicked like puppies.

-Luke being beaten by Rey. I don't mind that Luke was beaten. Watch the fight, he really wasn't in that fight. At best he was merely defending himself half heartedly. It would of been one thing to have him actually try and beat Rey and Rey uses all of her raw ability to overcome Luke. And I'm talking Luke literally pushes her to the brink and we see just all that raw power explode out a la Gohan moments in DBZ.

-Mishandling of Rey. She is too Mary Sue, and she could be handled SO MUCH BETTER. Like I just pointed out, make her more like Gohan. Gohan had all that power, but in the early stages couldn't really control it. Like when he topples Raditz, or shoots Raditz after Piccolo dies saving him. If Rey was more like that, I think we'd be more sympathetic to Rey. Like I said in that small skirmish with Luke. Had Luke really been trying and used all his skill and ability to really push down Rey and Rey just pulls a Gohan moment and just lets out a huge rush of just pure energy that is uncontrolled and beat Luke that way, I think most of us could of handled that. Instead she just pwns Luke and goes off.

-Hux. How can a man that fundamentally stupid be a General?

 

Honestly, the parts with Luke and Rey could of been handled way better. That I think is a major point for the last two movies. Rey has no real struggle with the Force, and the fact Luke could of been in that aituatuon but portrayed WAY better and still gotten the points across.

[NuSeC]

But that is not at all what has happened. Rey is no master. Yes, she can use the Force and I explained why that makes sense. Now, in order for her to grow and control what she can do... yes, she needs guidance. She'll get it.

 

They haven't changed anything at all about how people use the Force. Just your perception of what was required.

 

Lets see, she makes people do things they would not normally do. Telepathic. Mastery Unlocked. Uses the force to lift giant boulders into the air like it was nothing so people could escape, Mastery unlocked. Pulls the light saber to herself, over coming Kylo (someone training from youth and is in the Skywalker bloodline). Mastery Unlocked. No training in this stuff at all.... just naturally beastmode. The very epitome of a Mary Sue.

 

But that is not at all what has happened. Rey is no master. Yes, she can use the Force and I explained why that makes sense.

 

No, you explained why it made sense to you.

Edited December 28, 2017 by NuSeC

[NuSeC]

Also, I wanted to add that Disney placed too much comedy into this movie. I felt anyways. I mean, You had Wilhuff Tarkin, Vader, The Emperor (any flavor), Dooku, Maul, and others that brought a certain evil to the Empire. They were a serious force, Hux on the other hand, I mean, he is getting crank calls about his mom. It is just hard to take this movie serious when it does not even attempt to do so itself.

 

While the older SW movies did incorporate humor or have a comic relief character, this movie stifles at letting anything be serious. I mean, as I said, a stale "yo momma" joke right at the start. Luke tossing his dad's saber. Chewy and the little porg things. It was just too much of a "Disney movie" and not much of a star wars movie. I mean this is the first SW movie where 2 light sabers do not cross.

[Leklor]

Force sensitive is not the same as force user. You can be a force sensitive and still hardly use the force. Leia is a great example of this... well up until they dumped the whole Mary Poppins scene on us.

 

That's kind of ignoring most of what I said:

We've been shown that the Force is an active participant in the Galaxy's fate. When there is no other way, it intervenes pretty directly.

For example, allowing a blind guy to walk through a wall of blasterfire coming from Krennic's personal guards who had been shown so far to be a terrifying force in battle (While on Scarriff they don't take a single loss until faced with Baze) and yet emerge unscathed but dying seconds after his "purpose" is fulfilled.

It is also shown when Rey, a "nobody" with strong Force Sensitivity is given quick mastery of whatever powers she needs to survive until she can be a proper opponent for Kylo Ren without hacks. Therefore creating a new "balance".

 

Also, AlienTX did explain my point pretty well: Just because we saw the Jedi and Sith training doesn't mean that it is REQUIRED.

The Clone Wars animated series (Which is canon and was supervised by George Lucas himself) showed babies levitating objects with the Force without any training. And also, isn't that the point of both trilogies (And now TLJ) that the Jedi were wrong and had lost sight of what the Force was about? It certainly was spelled out in Yoda's chapters in the ROTS novelization and the reason for his exile: To reconnect with the Force, not to "train".

That's why I'm not bothered by the events shown in TLJ and why I can't understand your issue: Training was never stated to be mandatory. In fact, didn't Luke know how to use mind tricks in ROTJ (Which failed because Jabba but he knew it) without being "trained" to do them. Neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan had him practice it, he just saw it done.

 

Also, I wanted to add that Disney placed too much comedy into this movie.

 

You're not wrong, some of the humor was badly done (Though a decent amount worked for me.)

 

Hux on the other hand, I mean, he is getting crank calls about his mom.

 

That's apparently a reference to the Phasma book and the Aftermath trilogy. Armitage Hux is the illegitimate son of Brendol Hux, an Imperial General and a kitchen worker. His mother is a VERY SORE POINT for Hux, to the point that he conspired wiht Phasma to get rid of Brendol Hux and establish himself beyond being "The Bastard Son of Brendol Hux".

In the film proper is does feel like a "Yo momma joke" though, and seeing it again with the knowledge of this elements made the joke less cringey.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Leklor