Spoilers and why I did not like TLJ

[NuSeC]

Answers in orange

But you didn't ignore it. You specifically referenced it. And I can't help what you wrote. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who read it the way that I did.

 

I did not reply with confirmation nor denial, I simply pointed out you made a claim about my ethics/prejudices based on ridicules assumptions. Not agreeing with SJWs does not make you racist nor anti-women - a stupid connection YOU made at the end of your post

 

Maybe you should try something other than the "tough guy" approach to your writing. It takes away from your message and does you no credit. And now that has thrown us off topic and we're discussing your prejudices against people rather than your prejudices against the movie. I bet you'd rather be discussing the movie. So would I.

 

Says the guy calling someone a racist.

 

So, again, how does the presence of the female characters and diversity of the cast take away from the film/story? You implied that it did and I'm curious as to how so.

 

I did? I implied that "the presence of the female characters and diversity of the cast take away from the film/story" Where did I do that?

 

[NuSeC]

I personally disagree about that. The way they used Luke on Crait, considering he was probably slated to die even before a single line of script was written, made perfect sence in the context of that story.

By doing the Force Projection thing, he slowed down Kylo Ren, humiliated him (Made him lose his temper in front of Hux, demanded to stop the assault to go confront him only to turn out that he wasn't even really there) and allowed the Resistance to escape. Making Crait a form of pyhric victory for the Resistance (Now apparently the Rebellion again?)

If Luke had gone for real, there are a few possibilities as to how it could have gone:

-Kylo Ren somehow gets the upper hand and outright kills Luke, showing his power to the watching First Order and destroying morale for the Resistance

-Luke lets Kylo Ren kill him by doing an Obi-Wan. The First Order will still probably see Kylo as the man who slew Luke Skywalker no matter what and while his death won't harm the Resistance's morale as much but he might have been perceived as giving up.

-Luke destroys the First Order's forces on the ground, leading to two possible options: Kylo Ren and Hux die, leaving the trilogy with no vilain. Or they escape and the damaged but very much functionnal First Order Fleet intercepts the Resistance leaving aboard the Falcon, since they don't have to coordinate troops on the ground anymore.

-Luke flees with the Resistance, appearing still rather weak and un-dedicated to the fight.

 

Sure, Luke's death hurts. It was sad to see. But considering how low he was early on in the movie, his return was a complete victory as far as I'm concerned.

But I get it if you disagree, as discussed, this is how I interpret the ending

I like the theory crafting you are doing but the real answer here is any number of things can transpire in a story. I was looking more at the continuity overall. For me, the math is not there. :/ you may have no idea how sad that makes me.

[AlienEyeTX]

Answers in orange

 

Ok, I went back and re-read. You never said anything about the diversity in the OP. I apologize. But I also never called you a racist. I do think I may have confused someone else's post with yours, though.

 

However, you did say, 'The SJW is strong in this move. "All men are dumb, weak or overly dramatic/aggressive."'

 

So, I won't take anything back about that. There were plenty of strong men in the movie. Poe is strong (though misguided), Luke is strong, Kylo is strong, Snoke is strong, DJ is strong... the list goes on. The film is filled with strong personalities. That's what you get when you deal with bosses.

[AlienEyeTX]

I personally disagree about that. The way they used Luke on Crait, considering he was probably slated to die even before a single line of script was written, made perfect sence in the context of that story.

By doing the Force Projection thing, he slowed down Kylo Ren, humiliated him (Made him lose his temper in front of Hux, demanded to stop the assault to go confront him only to turn out that he wasn't even really there) and allowed the Resistance to escape. Making Crait a form of pyhric victory for the Resistance (Now apparently the Rebellion again?)

If Luke had gone for real, there are a few possibilities as to how it could have gone:

-Kylo Ren somehow gets the upper hand and outright kills Luke, showing his power to the watching First Order and destroying morale for the Resistance

-Luke lets Kylo Ren kill him by doing an Obi-Wan. The First Order will still probably see Kylo as the man who slew Luke Skywalker no matter what and while his death won't harm the Resistance's morale as much but he might have been perceived as giving up.

-Luke destroys the First Order's forces on the ground, leading to two possible options: Kylo Ren and Hux die, leaving the trilogy with no vilain. Or they escape and the damaged but very much functionnal First Order Fleet intercepts the Resistance leaving aboard the Falcon, since they don't have to coordinate troops on the ground anymore.

-Luke flees with the Resistance, appearing still rather weak and un-dedicated to the fight.

 

Sure, Luke's death hurts. It was sad to see. But considering how low he was early on in the movie, his return was a complete victory as far as I'm concerned.

But I get it if you disagree, as discussed, this is how I interpret the ending

 

Agreed. Well-put.

[NuSeC]

But I also never called you a racist.

~snip

Ehem...

 

 

 

 

 

SJW? Sorry you don't like women or people of color.

 

 

Really? You sure did insinuate the "bantha fodder" out of it.

So, again, how does the presence of the female characters and diversity of the cast take away from the film/story? You implied that it did and I'm curious as to how so.

 

From bad to worse. And if you think Luke, Kylo, Finn or Poe are strong male leads in this movie well... I think that speaks for itself.

Edited December 21, 2017 by NuSeC

[Valceanu]

OK so let me start by saying I LOVE STAR WARS! LOVE IT. Love the lore, story, heroes and villains. Darth Vader is still arguably the most recognizable and menacing film villains of all time.

 

I respect people who liked the film and I am not going to say you are not allowed to like it. But on the same hand, I did not.

 

I will try to just list the top 3 things I did not like with the movie and an explanation as to why.

 

1) Super untrained Rey. What in the world? An untrained force user bests someone trained and tutored by one of the greatest Jedi masters of all time.

 

2) Weak and ridicules Luke. Again... What in the world? We have one of the most powerful Jedi EVER and he gets pwned by creating a hologram with no real fight scene. Star Wars is about the Skywalkers yes? I mean even a write-in Mace Windu had an awesome fight scene... Yoda had a fight scene, Obi had a fight scene. But Luke, the most prolific of heroes in the SW universe?... no. I am just dumbfounded by what they did to Luke in this movie. This is probably the most ridicules failures of this movie.

 

3) The many many many plot holes or the invention of force abilities (to fill plot points) and use of force ghosts and light speed never used before in any other movie. Force ghosts can send down lighting. awesome right? Except why not just have force ghosts go around and kill the bad guys to start with? Just ram other ships with light-speed FTW! Not sure why nobody would have thought about this before.

 

I could go on but really, I have no reason to care about Rey, Finn, Poe or Kylo at this point. They have killed everyone else and now this is just a name on a movie and not a continuation of a story. Super Rey with a week or less of training... because forget some training... let's just go straight to beastmode. Only those insignificant Skywalkers need to be trained in the force am I right?. Just wow.

 

The SJW is strong in this move. "All men are dumb, weak or overly dramatic/aggressive."

 

This movie really killed SW for me. And this is without going into... Who was Snoke? Where did he come from? The first order? What does it mean and where did they come from? Why move from clones to normal people being storm troopers and how did they acquire and train so many in such a short period of time? I mean... I am just lost in the stupidity and carelessness of it all.

 

Star Wars is ruined for me now. I do not know if I am alone in those lines of thought, but that is where I am, I do not care about it anymore.

 

There would have been better ways to kill off Luke after they have established that Rey had EARNED and TRAINED for the part.

 

/rant

 

i very much disagree with your post mate. Ofc you are completely within your right to have an opinion but for me it doesnt hold water.

 

For one thing Rey is a competent fighter right from the off. That fact is established from TFA. Due to having to survive on her own on Jakku she developed certain skill, combat skills included. She also had a very strong connection to the force naturally (i still harbor some doubt as to whether her parents were really nobodies or if we will have an interesting reveal in the next movie). As for Kylo being trained by the "one of the greatest jedi master of all time"... when is that ever established? Which ties in to your second point where you say Luke is the one of the most powerful Jedi ever. Based on what evidence?

 

The fact of the matter is he was always portrayed as a flawed (albeit good at his core) individual. He ended up defeating an aged and half mechanical Vader only once he effectively tapped into the dark side (letting his emotions take control, using his anger when Vader threatens Leia etc.). He's always had that in him being the son of Anakin and all - which does a lot to explain his moment of weakness towards Kylo. Moreover, he was effectively butt-whooped by Palpatine and it was only due to Vader's betrayal that Palpatine was killed... Nowhere is it established that Luke was in fact all that powerful. Sure, he would have refined his skills over the year to a degree but he also cut himself off from the Force for a number of years before the events of TLJ... the astral projection thing understandably took a lot out of him as he did it over a significant distance. Also, saying he got "pwned" by it is a gross over-simplification... My interpretation was that when all was said and done Luke purposely chose to move on (effectively stepping down) to allow Rey to fulfill her own potential and destiny. The EU/Legends is not cannon so no matter how powerful one author or another chose to portray Luke that doesnt make it so in the movie/cannon universe.

 

When it comes to force ghosts you have to remember that the Force has a will of its own, a fact established throughout the SW universe. Even in this movie we are told that the force itself is trying to "create" balance. The fact that Yoda (among others) can manifest as force ghosts at all is only by the grace of The Force... Effectively acting against the balance would surely go against the will of the force which could potentially wipe said ghosts from existence altogether when they become cut-off. What i'm saying is they can only do so much to affect the "real" world... only ever as much as The Force itself allows basically. At least that is my take on it.

 

As for the light speed thing... its a needs must type situation... im pretty sure its not sustainable at all to start crashing very expensive space-crafts. Even a basic ship would cost millions or billions of credit to purchase from a shipyard. Its just not feasible.

 

...just my 2 cents ofc.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Valceanu

[Adam_J_K]

The SJW is strong in this move. "All men are dumb, weak or overly dramatic/aggressive."

 

I see your real reason for not liking The Last Jedi. It's that scary SJW agenda. How dare Star Wars be inclusive! It's a galaxy that should only and always have white male protagonists!

[NuSeC]

I see your real reason for not liking The Last Jedi. It's that scary SJW agenda. How dare Star Wars be inclusive! It's a galaxy that should only and always have white male protagonists!

 

And again. someone building a case against something that is not there.

 

Mr. Strawman argument.

[NuSeC]

i very much disagree with your post mate. Ofc you are completely within your right to have an opinion but for me it doesnt hold water.

 

For one thing Rey is a competent fighter right from the off. That fact is established from TFA. Due to having to survive on her own on Jakku she developed certain skill, combat skills included. She also had a very strong connection to the force naturally (i still harbor some doubt as to whether her parents were really nobodies or if we will have an interesting reveal in the next movie). As for Kylo being trained by the "one of the greatest jedi master of all time"... when is that ever established? Which ties in to your second point where you say Luke is the one of the most powerful Jedi ever. Based on what evidence?

 

The fact of the matter is he was always portrayed as a flawed (albeit good at his core) individual. He ended up defeating an aged and half mechanical Vader only once he effectively tapped into the dark side (letting his emotions take control, using his anger when Vader threatens Leia etc.). He's always had that in him being the son of Anakin and all - which does a lot to explain his moment of weakness towards Kylo. Moreover, he was effectively butt-whooped by Palpatine and it was only due to Vader's betrayal that Palpatine was killed... Nowhere is it established that Luke was in fact all that powerful. Sure, he would have refined his skills over the year to a degree but he also cut himself off from the Force for a number of years before the events of TLJ... the astral projection thing understandably took a lot out of him as he did it over a significant distance. Also, saying he got "pwned" by it is a gross over-simplification... My interpretation was that when all was said and done Luke purposely chose to move on (effectively stepping down) to allow Rey to fulfill her own potential and destiny. The EU/Legends is not cannon so no matter how powerful one author or another chose to portray Luke that doesnt make it so in the movie/cannon universe.

 

When it comes to force ghosts you have to remember that the Force has a will of its own, a fact established throughout the SW universe. Even in this movie we are told that the force itself is trying to "create" balance. The fact that Yoda (among others) can manifest as force ghosts at all is only by the grace of The Force... Effectively acting against the balance would surely go against the will of the force which could potentially wipe said ghosts from existence altogether when they become cut-off. What i'm saying is they can only do so much to affect the "real" world... only ever as much as The Force itself allows basically. At least that is my take on it.

 

As for the light speed thing... its a needs must type situation... im pretty sure its not sustainable at all to start crashing very expensive space-crafts. Even a basic ship would cost millions or billions of credit to purchase from a shipyard. Its just not feasible.

 

...just my 2 cents ofc.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. However, she did nothing jedi-level. her knowing how to swing a staff around to keep slave traders away is a far cry from someone being trained to use the force to fight over a period of years under another who knows how to use the force to fight.

[Sportiva]

Facts are stubborn things: LINK

 

Looks like TLJ wasn't as universally loved as the critics and others would have you believe.

 

I, for one, was looking forward to a new set of characters & concepts. But Johnson didn't need to trash the old to get there. I thought Han's death was handled gracefully & with meaning, but Johnson's direction with TLJ seemed decidedly arrogant to me. I'm not upset with Luke's death, per se, but in general his story arc in the movie was very demeaning to his legacy. A portrayal of Luke as disillusioned and questioning his past decisions could have been done with dignity, but I get the sense that was never Johnson's intention.

[Kaedusz]

I see your real reason for not liking The Last Jedi. It's that scary SJW agenda. How dare Star Wars be inclusive! It's a galaxy that should only and always have white male protagonists!

 

It should neither be inclusive nor not inclusive. Things should happen naturally, not with inclusiveness(or lack of) in mind.

Inclusiveness(or not) should the a natural random result, not the predetermined direction, otherwise you get a cringe fest.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Kaedusz

[Draqsko]

This never had anything to do with the quantity of the people liking it, but their quality. Most of EU fans ,deeply versed in Star Wars don't like the movie, their opinion is all that matters to me.

 

Ofc the average joe is gonna see some space ships and force powers and some sabers are gonna say wooohoo star wars , awesome! Especially when it comes to Force Awakens.

 

And i am sure some1 will say, if not here, then to themselves i am versed in the EU and i like it. Bollocks. Just wait till the hype leaves.

 

You realize you just used a logical fallacy?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[Kaedusz]

You realize you just used a logical fallacy?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

 

Yes, from a certain point of view, if you really wanna see it. So what?

Edited December 21, 2017 by Kaedusz

[NuSeC]

Yes, from a certain point of view, if you really wanna see it. So what?

 

It was also a way of saying the people that put time into the lore, read the books and kept the franchise alive for the decades in between the actual films... well... poo on them.

 

Luke is a weak and simple minded old white male that gets bested by a girl after 2 days of training and the best he can muster is to coward out and die because of a projection... because reasons. ~Rian Johnson

[Valceanu]

This never had anything to do with the quantity of the people liking it, but their quality. Most of EU fans ,deeply versed in Star Wars don't like the movie, their opinion is all that matters to me.

 

Ofc the average joe is gonna see some space ships and force powers and some sabers are gonna say wooohoo star wars , awesome! Especially when it comes to Force Awakens.

 

And i am sure some1 will say, if not here, then to themselves i am versed in the EU and i like it. Bollocks. Just wait till the hype leaves.

 

oh how rich... so whoever was not versed in or not interested in the EU is of less "quality" as a fan?! please... a lot of the EU is fan fiction level (im talking about the novels here mostly) and poorly written (there are a few exceptions ofc). But the fact remains EU is NOT cannon so i dont really care how one character or another was portrayed in the EU... it has no relevance to the cinematic universe which is cannon. Its as simple as that. I can start writing an EU novel tomorrow and develop characters in accordance with my own view. People can like it or not but it will still be part of the EU. So in terms of quality vs quantity it is in fact the EU that suffers not the SW fan base. As opposed to you i consider the opinion of those cant let go of the EU less relevant when it comes to judging the movie specifically because their opinion was always going to be biased against it.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. However, she did nothing jedi-level. her knowing how to swing a staff around to keep slave traders away is a far cry from someone being trained to use the force to fight over a period of years under another who knows how to use the force to fight.

 

but thats just it... someone who learns how to fight WITHOUT the use of the force will generally be more versed in combat specifically because they do NOT use the force as a crutch to augment their fighting. When they finally do end up tapping into the force their fighting level will be higher then that of someone who has always only ever fought WITH the force. I'm talking about martial combat here obviously not the use of force powers... in the case of those it was made pretty evident that Rey has an incredibly strong innate connection to the force even by force user standards. Whether you like how it was done or not is a matter of taste ofc... but its not that hard to believe from where i stand.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Valceanu

[AlienEyeTX]

Ehem...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Really? You sure did insinuate the "bantha fodder" out of it.

 

 

From bad to worse. And if you think Luke, Kylo, Finn or Poe are strong male leads in this movie well... I think that speaks for itself.

 

Hey, fella... I admitted a mistake and apologized. Why are you still on this?

 

Must've struck a nerve.

 

BTW, we all know what you mean when you say SJW and super-feminism. Maybe I wasn't as far off as I thought.

 

Back to the movie, please tell me where Luke was weak. He made a stand for what he thought he should do. In the end, he shows up and saves the resistance while trolling Kylo. How is that weak?

[DarthDymond]

Yeah, the way they treated Luke was just as bad as how, even though Obi-Wan was so bada** that he beat Darth Maul, General Grievous, and Darth Vader, plus was a front-line general in the Clone Wars, they had him die like a chump in Episode IV. Clearly he should have been able to take down Vader (again) and the whole Death Star himself. Killing Kenobi like that was such bulls***! [/sarcasm]

:rolleyes:

Edited December 21, 2017 by DarthDymond

[that_Spartan_IV]

Well, it was at least better than the Force Awakens, that's for sure.

[NuSeC]

Hey, fella... I admitted a mistake and apologized. Why are you still on this?

 

Must've struck a nerve.

 

BTW, we all know what you mean when you say SJW and super-feminism. Maybe I wasn't as far off as I thought.

 

Back to the movie, please tell me where Luke was weak. He made a stand for what he thought he should do. In the end, he shows up and saves the resistance while trolling Kylo. How is that weak?

You denied calling me a racist.

 

And obviously you don't know my issue with SJWs as you were proven wrong on your assumptions already. Trying to throw the racist/sexist card out before you even comprehend what I said.

 

Also... most women are not feminist anymore because it is not what it used to be and does not mean what it used to mean. So the majority of women hate women? Women are misogynistic? This is where your logic leads.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/feminism-project/poll/

or

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/16/feminism-poll_n_3094917.html

 

My issue is not with women or races as I think it is petty. The fact that is what you CHOOSE to focus on and put words in my mouth is not my problem but yours.

 

Feminism no longer stands for equality, equality in the sexes is not the issue. Now it is about beating down men and incited sexual bias, and the majority of women agree so again... are women misogynistic? It has evolved into something else that is why they disagree.

 

I am done with this portion of the discussion. You were wrong and jumped to the conclusion that I hated women and other races. The problem here is there is real racism, and if people just throw it around, then it becomes just another word. It means something, save that kind of accusation for when there is no other meaning.

 

Again, being anti SJW does not mean you hate women. Perhaps you should look outside your echo-chamber?

---

 

ON-TOPIC

"How was Luke weak?" Let me die by using this new force hologram power that we all just learned about an hour before hand. Also, let me look weak minded and afraid at this new girl who can just pwn anyone because the director wrote it into the story.

 

You can disagree, but he was weak in this film, Count Dooku was more powerful than he was on screen. I must not be the only person who also believes this to be the case as they are now seeing huge drops at the box-office. This will be the first SW movie I have not went to the theater to watch more than once. It will also be the only one I do not buy when it comes out on blueray.

[Draqsko]

Yes, from a certain point of view, if you really wanna see it. So what?

 

Logical fallacies are a horrible method of supporting your argument, they make your argument look weaker to a neutral observer.

 

Your contention that TLJ is bad because a small subset of people think it is bad is a ludicrous supposition. I mean these are people that thought the Yuuzhan Vong were good lore. Extragalactic invaders who are immune to the Force, nothing like cutting off your own OT canon with the Force flowing through EVERYTHING in the universe.

[NuSeC]

Yeah, the way they treated Luke was just as bad as how, even though Obi-Wan was so bada** that he beat Darth Maul, General Grievous, and Darth Vader, plus was a front-line general in the Clone Wars, they had him die like a chump in Episode IV. Clearly he should have been able to take down Vader (again) and the whole Death Star himself. Killing Kenobi like that was such bulls***! [/sarcasm]

:rolleyes:

 

Yeah, however your sarcasm does not take into effect that Luke never got to be anything more than a student and then a weak old man on screen. There are no scenes like Windu, Dooku, Yoda, Vader etc etc etc... and Luke for 4 decades was supposed to be the "pinnacle" of what a Jedi could be. Then we get fed this.

 

To each their own, I feel they did not do Luke justice on screen.

[NuSeC]

Logical fallacies are a horrible method of supporting your argument, they make your argument look weaker to a neutral observer.

 

Your contention that TLJ is bad because a small subset of people think it is bad is a ludicrous supposition. I mean these are people that thought the Yuuzhan Vong were good lore. Extragalactic invaders who are immune to the Force, nothing like cutting off your own OT canon with the Force flowing through EVERYTHING in the universe.

 

It is not so much a small subset. Nearly a 50% loss in gross over TFA over just the past 2 days.

 

Also, I think the lore you are talking about is not nearly as accepted as how people feel wrong about how Luke was handled.

[Draqsko]

You denied calling me a racist.

 

And obviously you don't know my issue with SJWs as you were proven wrong on your assumptions already. Trying to throw the racist/sexist card out before you even comprehend what I said.

 

Also... most women are not feminist anymore because it is not what it used to be and does not mean what it used to mean. So the majority of women hate women? Women are misogynistic? This is where your logic leads.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/feminism-project/poll/

or

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/16/feminism-poll_n_3094917.html

 

My issue is not with women or races as I think it is petty. The fact that is what you CHOOSE to focus on and put words in my mouth is not my problem but yours.

 

Feminism no longer stands for equality, equality in the sexes is not the issue. Now it is about beating down men and incited sexual bias, and the majority of women agree so again... are women misogynistic? It has evolved into something else that is why they disagree.

 

I am done with this portion of the discussion. You were wrong and jumped to the conclusion that I hated women and other races. The problem here is there is real racism, and if people just throw it around, then it becomes just another word. It means something, save that kind of accusation for when there is no other meaning.

 

Again, being anti SJW does not mean you hate women. Perhaps you should look outside your echo-chamber?

---

 

You do realize that Social Justice Warrior is a politically weaponized term by hard right wing conservatives to denigrate those who support liberal agendas. So if you want to go around parroting something you heard on Fox News, you better be prepared to catch some flak for it.

 

Heck I'm politically conservative, yet I refuse to use that term because of the divisiveness it brings and the fact that it does bring race and sex into the equation. Maybe one day when our reptilian overlords reveal themselves to the public and try to seize control of the whole world will humans finally become colorblind and sexism is a thing of the past, maybe then you can throw around SJW and no one will care about it but until that happens you better expect some flak for it.

[Kaedusz]

snip

Neutral observer? You mean someone whose opinion is even more useless?

 

Joke aside, yes, if the situation was formal and if mattered in some real way. This here is just a chit chat and opinion sharing between people interested in star wars.

 

But anyway, it is there only if you really look for it and bend some things. The fallacy is not complete, because there is actual merit in the point made.

 

Not to mention that i am not a big fan of of the post ep 6 EU. + what @NuSeC said.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Kaedusz

[Joachimthbear]

Yeah, the way they treated Luke was just as bad as how, even though Obi-Wan was so bada** that he beat Darth Maul, General Grievous, and Darth Vader, plus was a front-line general in the Clone Wars, they had him die like a chump in Episode IV. Clearly he should have been able to take down Vader (again) and the whole Death Star himself. Killing Kenobi like that was such bulls***! [/sarcasm]

:rolleyes:

I know, right?

 

"What's Luke doing now?"

"He just achieved enlightenment and ascended to a higher form of existence."

"Man, what a loser."