Personally I do not see why not. If you read the book you can clearly se why the fight went the way it did. Kolar and Tiin steps up to opposite sides to arrest Sidious and when Sidious tells Tiin to read his mind they lower their blades. So sidious lets his camoflauge go and takes their heads while their guard is down. Then he goes for the other two, and no matter how good fisto is he is as stated only a master of form 1 which is only designed for fighting several opponents (and manyarmed opponents like grievous) and is extremely weak against Makashi which Sidious happened to be a master of. The fight betwwen Mace and Sidious is another story. Mace created Vapaad and is its only living master alongside Voss at the time so Sidious has no idea how to counter it (for reference look at the fight between Ka'sim VS Bane or Dooku VS Anakin/Obi-Wan and see what happens when you go up against a force user with an unfamiliar fighting style) and throughout the fight stays right on top of Sidious so the Dark Lord has no opportunity to let loose a force strom without getting his hand chopped off (bear in mind that during the fight they move at teleportation speed). Add the fact that Vapaad gets stronger the stronger the opposing dark sider is when used by a master (Voss VS Sora Bulq had a similar outcome) there is no reason to assume that Sidious was faking anything. Finally Mace wins when he breaks the window forcing Sidious to give up a little strength to keep himself from getting blown of the building, slowing him down just enough to get his lightsaber cut in half. Movie version is another story. Sidious starts of with a force scream which the jedi has no experience or protection from so three gets cut down before they can recover. Then Mace starts hammering down on Sidious and wins more details then that is nowhere to be found.

I have to go with the Prequels. While neither Anaking Jar Jar or Padme are where interesting the rest is pretty good in my opinion. It not only expands the universe showing new worlds it also shows in a quite elegant manner just how the Republic fell and how it could be that a democracy could turn into a militaristic dictatorship. Obi-wan is also considirably well developed and I you can really see the guy that would turn into old Ben in 20 years. Yoda is also a good develpment wise as he is he displays all the flaws rhat made the Jedi order fail in the end. Same with Mace Windu a great character as well. The setting, tone, special effects and the LIGHTSABER FIGHTS are also where good and makes for awesome entertainment. ITs by no means perfect but I never really saw the problems that many other people saw with it, its a question of taste I guess. The new trilogy has no real bright spots for me. TFA was a good movie yes and when I saw it I thought that they made a finall tip of the hat to the olt stuff and aimed for expanding the new but that does not happen. TLJ is really a waste of time. Under a few days tey jump around doing dodging blaster bolts, throw in a forced romance and maybee throw in a few moral lessons. They kill of a villain they never bothered making interesting and then makes Kylo the same whiner he was in the beginning of TFA. The new trilogy could have been a great film if they had just dared to go into unexplored waters but they did not do thatm and so in my opnion they failed to add anything to the saga. New or recreated old.

The Dread Masters are stated to only wield a fraction of Vititates power during the dread war. Could be just game hype and personally I would like to think that the Champions of either faction could have taken the Dread Masters. it makes no sence that they would come together without satbing eachother in the back. Palpatine is said to be the strongest Sith of all time but if you take a closer look at his performance there are some cracks in the plot armor. he gets cut of by Luke and Leia from the force by a technique they invent on the fly, (before that sort of thing is ever heard of in the star wars media) Galen Marek is able to compete with him at the age of 17 and to put it mildly all he has ever done is simply to fuel his ego so he has a serious overconfidence that can easily be exploited. On top of that he has never fought anyone who has mastered sith sorcery on a high level and Vitiate is one of the greatest sorcerers of all time. I'm not saying that that Vititate has no weak spots either but Palpatine has simply displayed more of them to my mind. To my mind it would spell out something like this. They start out with trading lightning and blasts since neither of them favour lightsaber battles when they where in their prime. Whatever building they fight in would be rubble by the time they are through. And when they start to realise that they are evenly matched in raw power (nothing they have showed me suggest otherwise) they turn to sorcery or Force/life drain. I do not know if Palpatine has ever displayed that power but since Luke and Leia stripped him so easily when he unleashed his force strom I would say that he has no knowledge on how to defend effectivly against it. Based on knowledge and consistency in powerlevel i would say Vitiate i the victor but that is just my opinion. Plapatine has to much inconsistency in his displayes, has never seen to wield any combat-related sorcery in any media I have read (please post me a source if I am wrong on that point) and is just flat out to ego-bosted to even consider that he might loose. Vitiate has been beaten a few times (every time he was weakenedor held back) so he knows that he is not immortal, hence he is more cautious and he has 1300 years of experience that should count for something in terms of eperience. That is my reasoning and I do not accept the because GL said so argument. he Said it but to many authors has added to the universe for his voice to be anything but one of many.

I think you have summed up the subjects quite nicely.

Ok so in the last sceen of TLJ people is sitting around trying to rebuild the Resistance so that they can beat the First order and restore the Republic, but is that even possible anymore? And do the people of the galaxy even want the Republic back? During the last decades of the Republic there was almost complete corruption and chaos, which is why the Seperatists broke loose (most of them anyway) and why Palpatine could take power, so those are the memories most people who remember the Republic will have, Chaos corrution and greedy bureaucrats/business men sucking planets dry of resources. Why would any individuall systems with any power to speak of want that back, especially since the New Republic seemingly let the First Order run rampant over the Rim Systems. The Republic and the very idea of a galaxy-spanning government has also taken a heavy beating, first we have the disfunctional Republic then we have the genocidal and planet wreeking Empire, the New Republic did not seem to do any better. And the New Republic is now gone, its entire government and appearantly central command and all its representatives is wiped out. Also since the NR imploded FO has invaded and probably bombarded pretty much every important system so if FO is defeated any system-spanning infrastructure will go away. In summary the Galaxy far far away has not been this broken since before the Republic was founded so how will rebuilding the Republic be even possible? Infrastructure is gone, any motivation to join the great failed governments is probably reduced heavily and I bet crime/piracy will go through the roof. So how do you think that the writers of Episode 9 will fix this little dilema? To me it seems like an impossible task, our heroes would be forced to conquer every system that don't sign up and rebuild every system that has been wrekked by 60 years of war, poverty/economic oppression and lawlessenes to me it seems that any dreams of order and peace is somewhere far away.

The expansions really need some class.custmization to fit every class. I would not mind some personal storylines for every class either. The class stories ends about 1 year into the galactic war so in the 5 more years that the war is fought there had to be something the grand heroes did other than Flashpoint. I could easily imagine the Wrath taking control over Darth Ekkage's assassin army and combining it with Pierce's black ops group and then proceding with plan zere, killing every republic leader that dared show his/her face. I know that this would never happen but it would tie up a lot of loose ends and make the war so much more interesting in its storytelling. In one moment you are scoring a great victory for the empire on Illum the next is two tears later at the start of RotHC and you are loosing the war.

Here is somethings that confuses me in two of the class stories that I would like some explanation on. In the SW act 2 you travel to Taris in order to destroy the War Trust. During that process they redeploy all the republics forces on the planet to their defence forcing you destroy them all. But during the same time Darth Gravus is on Taris to destroy the republics efforts there and for some reason he is not mentioned in the class story. He is in the planetary arc yet you do all the work and destroy the enemy and in the Annihilation novel he gets all the credit. Another big thing that bothers immensley ib KoTFE is the SI aproach to the problem. Sure assemble a power base once again and take on a new enemy makes sence. But you get clobbered around by the guy you are supposed to beat reguraly so why do you not use the same trick that deadeated Thanaton? Sith Ghosts are rare but if you put people on it you could find them, heck there was a whole bunch of them on Dromund Kass dark temple why not bring them ou to play? And if Darth Marr was so desparate to save the Empire why not offer to take his strenght or force him to comply with the force walk, with enough ghosts and force power you could take on Arcann as easily as you did Thanaton. The SI could handle atleast 5 ghosts at the same time and no matter if you released them or no you must have researched on how to bind even more should a crisis show up.

Can you two give it a rest this is a forum devoted to star wars discussions and a tread devoted to a movie. if you please keep to the subject. If you can not do that I suggest that you exhange phone numbers and take you bickering someplace else.

I agree with you there wholeheartedly. Lucas started a great mythos but the latest movie gave me the impression that he was someting of a one trick pony (please don't blast me). I like what Bioware and some writers has given to the star wars saga more simply because they had better and more interesting stories to tell (in my opinion) and they had a more deeply layerd way of telling it so my heart is still with the old content which the origianl creater ironicly never had anything to do with. My opinion only and I did like the LAst Jedi to a degree it just did not have the feel that I have come to exprerience with better (in my opinion) star wars media.

Another thing I would like to see is a main character who actually knows what he/she is doing an do not need to be told who they are. Part of what I liked the most about the SW BH IA class stories was that wherever you go you scream competence and power. We know what the force is by now please show us what the people who used it without restraint could do. They do not need to be force users at all. Just show us someone who could save the day with skill and intelligence instead of plotarmor and bad writting.

The Last Jedi to me was a close but no cigar kind of film but let's just think for a moment that The Old Republic would get a movie out on the big screen. How would we like it to look?. No matter what kind of story I would personaly like it if the makers put bigger focus on the Force and its users. In very few scenes of the movies does the force actually get the attention it deserves, sure they always say use the force and you will be alright but its mostly newbies tossing rocks as far as i'm concerned. It would be nice to see force sight/precognition/awereness etc getting some real screen time plus seeing sith sorcery onscreen would be awesome. I also would like to see some better choreography if it was live action. Sure the latest movies is exused because al the masters were dead and their arts mostly forgotten but if we go to the old republic I want to see people like the Wrath, Hero of Tython, Nox or Tulak Hord who took on entire armies by themselves. Story-wise I would also like it to be much more serious and gray. What I liked the least about the latest movies is the typical stereotype slappstick humour that seems to appear in every great action movie nowadays. The fate aóf the world/galaxy is at stake can we please keep i serious and accept that we are grownups who are trying to save it. It was fun the first few times now its just painfull and anoying the get bad jokes in the middle of soul-shattering dramatic scenes. And finally keep the story on track, no more unnecessary detours. The Last Jedi could have been a great film if they had decoted more screentime developing the plot and not made that silly side-plot on the casino world there had to be another way to get Finn some screentime. We have seen so many planets already we know their out there you do not need a new unnecessary planet every movie. Wow the post turned up to be just as much a critic agaist the Last Jedi as it was sticking to the topic, my bad:rolleyes:. Its alright I guess this way people might notice my opinion i'm shallow that way:D

1: Never encountered a sith miraluka that I am aware of. 2: I have one Miraluka sorcerer, I thought that was the most appropriate to the story. 3: SI easy the SW is so hyped up to be old sith blood that I simply can't justify anything else other than PB or human.

In the movie era all forms except Niman has someone who is regarded as THE master of the form and the list is something like this if I have my facts right. Shii-Cho: Kit Fisto easy. Makashi: Dooku obviosly but according to Obi-Wan Shaak Ti is a close second. Soresu: Obi-Wan has the best feats of pure mastery of the form in the entire media even if some people could move faster and as such defend better in some cases I don't think Obi could replicate Banes feat of standing in a rain storm for 10 minutes and remain dry. Ataru: Yoda no question. Djem So/ Shien: Anakin is the best in that department. Juyo/Vapaad: Mace Windu was the master of Vapaad but I seem to recall that Sidious prefered Juyo above the others. But nowhere is a true Niman master to be found or at least mentioned, I always wondered why but then a saw a VS video on youtube Exar Kun VS Dooku and then it hit me. Niman is called the diplomats form easily learned so that you can focus on other skills but in order to master it Cin Dralig claims it requires 10 years of dedicated training. What does that tell us? That there is a lot more to Niman than meets the eyes. The forms bladework is described as lazy but both Exar Kun and Darth Krayt was Niman specialists and thy were regarded as among the best duelist of their era. I can only draw the conclution that none of the jedi had chosen to embrace Niman as a true fighting style instead theu used it as a crutch to help them while they talked themsevles out of whatever violent situation they had ended up in. We never see Niman onscreen but it is described as a mixed martial arts-like form supported by force based attacks, whuch seems like a very handy form to know. Sure the bladework of the form was not that advanced with simple moves bit it incouraged creativity and versitility making it handy no matter the situation if you took it seriously. I would really like to see it onscreen as it is described. Maybee the user is wielding two sabers constantly guiding one of them in a continous saber throw while deflecting blaster bolt with his primary saber. Then he faces of against a couple of other force-users. He starts of with a simple exhange of blows then he gets creative. He breaks the Djem So stylists footing bu stomping a force blast right between his feat knocking of balance then throws one saber toward the Ataru-guys legs as the man finishes his fancy flipp and then takes his head of while his guard is lowered. He continues to keep the Djem SO man off-balance with stoomps to the ground that prevents him to use the bodyweight-behind-the-blade that Djem So requires and then goes in for the kill. That is just my opinion of how Niman could work but from what i have read it seems like an accurate interpritation of the styles aproach to fighting. So the sum of it all is that it seems like the Jedi had started to regard Niman as a form that you didn't study to hard because it required a warriors mind to use effectevly, with constant adaptation and force based attacksand the Jedi of that era hardly ever used to force to attack. It was just a lazy mans form despite what Exar Kun and later Darth Krayt proved so clearly. That is just my thought that I wanted to get out there. Anyone else have any thoughts on the subject?

Regarding the statement that only Luke could beat Palpatine. Palpatine had mastered the 7 forms of lightsaber combat, but in his own words he only did that to humiliate the jedi so no matter how good he might have been in hos prime he had no reason countinue practising between RoTS and Dark Empire. Most people forgett that in order to stay a master in any martial art you have to practise any Palpatine had years if not decades without practising his skills reguraly. And in the Bane trilogy we are informed how lightsaber combat works in detail so how can Luke have gotten the training he needed in the short weeks or months at most to counter a master of the 7 forms? He didn't because an ordinary person has to train years to master a form and even a prodiy has to train for months. And no he could not have used his reflexve learning to do it because his mind would have bben flooded with every possible option that Palpatine could have used like when Bane fought Ka'sim keep in mind that if you discuss Legends you are going to have to take everything from every novel game and comic into account, Which explains how Luke could beat him the second time around. Paplatines skills had simply atrophied to the point where he had to relly only on his force speed and strength. Luke was overwhelmed the forst time but was ready during the rematch and the litteraly disarmed Palpatine. That argument is to inform all people that Palpatine is not perfect. In the end it was his own ego that took him down. For years he was the top dog and no one could beat him ad then when he was throwing his force strom around he an heir to all the knowledge and wisdom of the rule of two was cut of from the force by someone with months of training at most. PS to whoever tries the Lucas said so argument, in the Legends George Lucas has no say whatsoever anymore. He may be the creator of the canon universe but for years he left other writers build the universe and everything in it he had nothing to do with the writing of Dark Empire for one. So basicly every great feat that Palpatine achives on Legends has nothing to do with Lucas so Lucas does not have a say in Legends anymore anymore than I do.

It is a pretty common story line that the great hero w disappears for a time everything goes to hell and then he/she has to fix it with a smaller number of companions. If you had not been frozen and instead awoken and escaped you could probably have ended the Eternal empire with a couple of flashpoint missions. Assemble a solid strike team kill Arcann, kill Vaylin and watch that boring sideplot of an empire crumble. As powerfull as Arcann and Vaylin is they would not have been able to beat the heroes of either faction if the heroes had been supported by their powerbases and allies. So to make the story into an expansion instead of an Op they had to put you on ice and getting rid of the rest of the classes in giant plotholes instead of doing something good. Like make it mandatory to finnish all the class-stories in order to start the new expansion and then import the other characters you have played and the choices they made ti make the galaxy even bigger and then continue into a new story arc. It worked for both Mass Effect and Dragon Age so why not here. That is just my preference but in my opinion it would have been better than what we got.

Plot mostly and then we got fact that the sith race is pretty much a 90% force-senstive and they look at it as their duty to keep their bloodline living. So in other words other than all the other recruits that they have gathered since their reemergence they also has continously breed forth force-sensetive children to be trained. But as they are now they have to be on the end of the rope since as you said they aare getting killed left and right ecen though they probably retain a sizeble population and if do not get some room to procreate (as weird as it sounds) soon enough will not have a viable gene pool.

Back to topic pls it has gone far enough whether Windu or Palpatine could do this and that. That discussion has been gone over and over time and time again. Sorcery how would it stand up to Vapaad if the sorcerer had enough room to use it. Forget Palpatine and Windu. If someone in a pararell Star Wars universe alos had mastered Vapaad and tried to fight a sorcerer with it how would it turn out? If you go for the canon sources the Vapaad-master would not turn out so well I think. We see how a pure swordsman and forceuser reacts to sorcery in TCW when Talzin attacks Dooku during the fight at Dathomir, he never sees it coming and has no defence against it at all.

Which is the worst thing about him. In the prequels he is a political genius who has everyone eating out of his hand but in the Dark Empire and after he has grown so powerfull that he can whip up a storm in seconds. Unfortunatly he had also grown so petty and greedy that he let his finest admiral (Thrawn) fend for himslf just for taking up the role of leader and the undermined him. That is what I hate about Palpatine the most, his incosistancy. In the old media he is a overpowered moroon with no longterm ability left but in the newer he seems so much more dangerous and brilliant. One could arguee though that he simply grew mad with power when he didn't have an enemy to oppose anymore breaking the first tenent of the Sith. Peace is a lie if you do not have goal or reason to grow you will stagnate which seems like what happened to him in the end and when an enemy appeared that could challenge him he simply could not cope with potentaly loose his power so he went in to stupid berserk. When I think closer I sort of like that explanation. He did not loose because he wasn't good enough he lost because he brooke the code of his own order and let himself stagante and become arrogant the exact same thing that happened to the Jedi. Whit the rules that has been placed in the Legends universe nowadays what other explanation is there for how easily he was severed from the force?

Both KOTOR games remastered would be nice, And I would some extra missions and equipment DLC:s. Maybee even some more companions?

My prayers has been answered and I rejoice. There is people out there who agree with me regarding powerlevels of various eras ( at least to a certain degree) But pls keep to the subject of the thread: Vapad vs Sorcery would Vapaad prevail? I have made to other threads to discuss the powerlevel of the movie era force users pls discuss away on them. Here is the links http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=928298 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=924984

Has happened to me once don't remeber which character though. I solved it by simply going to the place the mission log told me to go and when I had talked to the guy I was suppised to talk to the world was back to normal.

A belivable theory and I rather like it. It explains why Valkorion gave up his quest that fast.

I do not personaly like the midichlorian concept, to much science behind it and I do not like to mix science with mysticism, Bit that is mostly because i'm a fantasy nerd first sci-fy geek later. According to wookipedia an avreage person has around 2500 per cell, a mildy force sensitive person around 5000 and Darth Tenebrous described as a being of pure force had 15000. I believe I have read somewhere that Paöpatine had around 17500-18000 but i'm not absolutely sure on that point. On the protagonists it's a bit hard, thay are all described as enourmosly powerfull so I have no problem giving them a count of 15000+ anything less would be silly considering what people say about them. The SW is also an example about how the force is inherited, he comes from a long line of Sith the Force carried down through the generations constantly breeding force-sensitivity and the Pureblood Sith has taken it so far that a person not having force-potential is a freak. But it all comes down to talent VS potential which is really. Are you good at swordplay can you accept that the force is infinite and can be used to do anything as long as you belive it?

I am going to have disagree with you there. Force crush is just TK used a bit destructively, you squeeze someones organs or bones instead of pushing them several yards away. Not that advanced. And during his fight with Palpatine Windu used Vapaad to such a degree that the fighting was effortless after a while, beyond fatigue and that the fight could have gone on infefently if he hadn't used shatterpoint. I do not have the text on my computer so i can not post a quote but as I am writing this I am sitting with the book in my hand.

For 4000 years the tech-level of the Star Wars universe has stayed the same. Which is fine storytelling-wise don't get me wrong. it has remained on the same level and it has made it easy for various writers so they don't have to come adabt their work depending on the era. But that has stopped working in my opinion. When Star Wars was the hight of technology of any genre that worked fine. But now when the resent movies with their extremely creative and advanced CGI effects from many different genres Star Wars has been left behind. A prime example is the resent MARVEL movies where pretty much anything is possible: spacesuits that fit in your pocket (guradians of the galaxy) robots that are not completely braindead (any movie feautering AI from terminator to all Iron man films). The same level of tech keeps the right feeling and atmosphere in all Star Wars media but an upgrade in future films would give us a feeling that the galaxy is not completely static and moving forward (plus it would make for some very cool fight scenes if the Jedi and Sith had to deal with lightsaber-resistant armor and personal energy shields).