Nerf Guard!

[Rafiknoll]

Hard to believe that the people who are so competitive so that they can't be friends with lesser people (which I despise as a trait regardless of their skills) find a basic game mechanic that they had since 1.0 to adapt to so OP... But lets move on for the rest.

For being objective on these, you get objective answers :

 

The Analysis.

Baseline.

Guard is so broken and OP that the only way to deal with it, is to attack a not Guarded target in almost all cases. Any not biased person, playing PvP knows this I think. This funnels, for lack of a better word, the DDs toward none-DCD and none-guarded targets. This shifts the META toward Defensive Cooldowns or Healing (we come back to that) and the DDs now.. Years later and not adressing the issue. DDs have become virtually Tanks (when not cc'ed - we get back to that).

 

DDs are virtually tanks? This was said indeed in 40% of this thread. The other 60% say that DDs are squishy as hell when unhealed and unguarded (besides a few select currently defensively OP specs). In addition, there is also the solution of pulling the guarded target or the tank away from each other, or bursting through the guard to get the tank to remove it, or the healer to go for the tank. Switching target is not the only possibility, though it is usually the correct choice or the more beneficial one.

 

PvP Healing, CC and Tanking.

Only reason ppl are defeated in 4v4 ranked, is because of 2x CC on healers and tanks. If healing was worth anything at all, and Guard was worth anything at all, a 4v4 with only 2 dps each side, shouldn't be able to score a single kill. Testing this is easy, if the DDs don't CC, they simply do not bring enough damage (healing is flat and almost HPS only, try imagine a Carnage/Combat Style healer instead, would be epic to heal). PvP Healing - In my opinion, is utter carbage in this game. It sure has high'ish HPS, but not any healing CDs to actually save ppl, like a 100% heal usable once every minute, a shield effect making ppl take 50% damage for 4-6 secs of the GCD for example. Tanks are almost just as bad, sure they can stay alive for long, but their actual abilities to protect teammembers is limited (Intercede/G. Leap).

Every tactic that is used in arenas to kill regardless of guard is viable in all objective PVP. The only place where it might not work is maybe huttballs, and in these your best chance is to have the tank himself or super-mobile guy hold the ball anyway, and the best way to kill them is using the fire/acid.

As for the idea for healers having super-bursts with long CDs, it is a very good idea, but not practical because this game is also PVE, and PVE requires sustained heals and can't settle for long CDed bursts.

 

When a Tank is CC'ed for 16 secs they are made completely redundant, if their Guard isn't on the "right" target. When a Tank is CC'ed ppl die.. if a DPS is CC'ed nothing happens. Anti CC for tanks is more important to their Role, same goes with Healers.

 

Exactly! Use this to kill people in objective warzones, just as you use it in arenas. In objective it is also worse for them to waste the breaker because it leaves them open to sapcaps later.

 

In Regs when ppl constantly break CC or the Tank simply leave his Guard on the Healer. It takes 3-4 dps forever to kill them and THEN reinforcements arrive at nodes for example. Add Stealthers delaying captures for 1 minute solo vs 2-4 ppl. It quickly get more or less boring and uneventful. It start evolving around kinda cheesy none combat PvP tactics.

 

Sad that regs don't know how to focus, but such a group will never kill enemies even without a tank, simply becuase the healer can handle all the damage they do added to how many seperate DCDs it is split upon. Focused DPS can overcome guard, unfocused can't overcome anything unless no healer is present. EU top players should know that.

 

 

Where does it leave us?

The point is to make a better game for all right? So, we need to bring Guard to a level, where we can manage combat without CC'ing everyone ALL the TIME and where healers can actually make a real difference. In Regz running Skanks and High Survival DD save up slots for more damage, because you don't really "need" healers anymore.

 

In fact, the lack of healer is still the top losing factor in most maps. Just fact, people die more and guard nodes less good without healers, resulting in nodes being lost to the enemies with the healer and then guarded forever by the healer.

 

Healing is more or less impossible vs players of equal or higher skill without Guard, because 8v8s have more DDs than 4v4s and the burst just becomes insane. Cross healing saves ppl but just makes it a grind.

That is the goal. If healing was possible without guard with a rate of 1/8 healers in a group it would mean healers are OP. Requiring both guard and healing together to sustain high damage completes the Trinity, without it, you can kick either role out of PVP unless healers come in overdose, in which case they don't need anything but healers and can cause the most annoying deathless matches possible, and all that without tanks.

 

 

Tanks need active CDs to actually protect ppl instead of passive Guard.

Healers need actual CDs to heal ppl and not just be hps.

DDs should not be allowed to be this tanky (breaks the idea of roles).

Burst needs to be lowered to get rid of the CC and 2xStun META.

For the 1st two lines I said before: this can't work in PVE, and therefore can't be implemented in the game as a whole, even though it could work nicely if the game was solely PVP [And a note for the 1st line: guard is "passive" only if the enemies suck and both the tank and his guarded are smart, and therefore the result is DPS being mostly directed but not focused enough on the guarded, and the guarded maintains undisturbed proximity with the tank]

3rd line is true, for those who are tanky, such as mercs with their many H2F.

The last line requires to look at each and every spec and recalculate what is his burst/stun balance. Too complicated to and too individual to be either right or wrong, but either way we will see it happen. Almost every class change alters that balance for better or worse.

[Glocko]

Tanks are the only thing mitigating all the Mercs.... Every post about nerfing guard comes from OP classes

[KendraP]

We predicted January 1 month after launch that PvP would only be about CC'ing tank, Double Stun with no way to pop DCDs. This would make it boring to play PvP, unless you had the most CC (all played sin), having best Burst and or Survival. Healing would be soon redundant for noone would kill someone, without the healers being CC'ed first (which is impossible with cross healing) from 100% to 0% Health.. So that was sort of it, then ppl left, I did too, it was boring. Then some kept coming back. Things evolved, Sniper, Merc and Conc./Fury happened.

 

Yeah all players are squishy now, noone can survive being double stunned and focused (unless merc, jugg, god bubble etc.). But when not double stunned (Sniper, Merc and Concentration/Fury have anti stun measures in abundance) they are more tanky than what we have ever tried. Tanks are made redundant with CC in the same way healers are, with their flat HPS type of healing.

 

Insane DCDS are both to make up for lack on healing/guard and range vs melee etc etc. Guard doesn't really help much beside funneling DDs to other targets, Taunt is better for that.

 

Lots of factors play a role, no doubt. I will leave it at that see the analysis as a game evolving over time. Not 1.0 or right now, but from 1.0 to now.

 

Then finally what will happen and keep happening in the long run unless we do the things suggested at the bottom.

 

Youve said dps are squishy and and op in the same post.

 

Also i take no one who lumps sorcs and juggs in the same category as mercs seriously.

 

I quite literally don't even understand your problem.

[KendraP]

Yeah.. Im saying that everyone dies in a 2x Hardstun. So anyone beside a Tank or the 3 specs with "on stun" DCDs can be instantgibbed with 2 dps, if they do not get to use one of their DCDs. Thought this was common practice/knowledge and didn't need clarification etc.

 

My bad.

 

If I see someone dying I will probably guard them.

 

Oh wait, guard shouldn't be a thing so we should have more instagibbed!

 

I'm seriously confused as to what you want, pal.

[countdemons]

If I see someone dying I will probably guard them.

 

Oh wait, guard shouldn't be a thing so we should have more instagibbed!

 

I'm seriously confused as to what you want, pal.

 

he doesn't really know.

 

Like has been stated in his previous 1 million posts about guard, he either has such a low dps output, that he believes the reason he can't kill another player is due to the famed and mythical "OMG OMG GUARD SO STRONK OMG", or he was rolfsomp'd by a tank/skank and is now whining about it.

[KendraP]

he doesn't really know.

 

Like has been stated in his previous 1 million posts about guard, he either has such a low dps output, that he believes the reason he can't kill another player is due to the famed and mythical "OMG OMG GUARD SO STRONK OMG", or he was rolfsomp'd by a tank/skank and is now whining about it.

 

Lol I'm pretty sure I've called him a "brainless monkey smashing a keyboard" at some point when I was really miffed.

[Rafiknoll]

Lol I'm pretty sure I've called him a "brainless monkey smashing a keyboard" at some point when I was really miffed.

 

Stop harassing the guy! he just harmlessly says "12345"!! :jawa_tongue:

[Glower]

The Ultra Concerned Player

 

These are full tanks, right? Oh, it's a Skank-y-Tank Kingdom by now, no one remembers full tanks now...

[Rafiknoll]

These are full tanks, right? Oh, it's a Skank-y-Tank Kingdom by now, no one remembers full tanks now...

 

Full 248 default tanks - no.

Full high-endurance tanks - hello there

[unkkii]

Since bioware is trying to remove deaths from pvp altogether, why don't we help them a bit and switch to skanks & healers , mission accomplished, just got my skank jugg geared and oh man its fun with pocket healz, nobody dies, only good old mid stalemates where u can watch netflix and stand near turret , check the screen every now and then do basic attack and back to masterba(i)ting, game is fun & hard ..not Edited January 7, 2018 by unkkii

[Rafiknoll]

Since bioware is trying to remove deaths from pvp altogether, why don't we help them a bit and switch to skanks & healers , mission accomplished, just got my skank jugg geared and oh man its fun with pocket healz, nobody dies, only good old mid stalemates where u can watch netflix and stand near turret , check the screen every now and then do basic attack and back to masterba(i)ting, game is fun & hard ..not

 

The fault is in these morons who know pocket healers with skanks (or for instance, pocket healers with more pocket healers) ruin the fun and take them anyway. But since I can't stop them I will settle for letting them parse forever in mid while I solo the sides from noobs who think simply being a merc makes them immune to skill

[TrixxieTriss]

Tanks are the only thing mitigating all the Mercs.... Every post about nerfing guard comes from OP classes

 

Snipers and Mara’s can also mitigate Mercs. So there is no need for skank tanks in the meta.

[TrixxieTriss]

The fault is in these morons who know pocket healers with skanks (or for instance, pocket healers with more pocket healers) ruin the fun and take them anyway. But since I can't stop them I will settle for letting them parse forever in mid while I solo the sides from noobs who think simply being a merc makes them immune to skill

 

I can’t see any pocket healers causing problems, even with skanks. I do my healing these days on my Jugg than most pocket healers, LoL

Edited January 7, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[Rafiknoll]

I can’t see any pocket healers causing problems, even with skanks. I do my healing these days on my Jugg than most pocket healers, LoL

 

For each real pocket healer, there are 4 who respecced to feel OP and don't understand healers need minimal skill to work. But it truly is annoying to encounter a skank and 2 healers all with the same guild name sitting on mid and having their "fun".

 

Skanks are a problem, but they usually don't guard unless they use pocket healers, or they die (commonly seen in arenas. Gotta love the look on the enemies faces when they realize tunneling the tank doesn't work on me because I am not skank ). Real tanks (endurance-high, of course) will become more common if people just realize how viable and actually good they are. They can solo skanks, they can solo DPS, they can solo these poor clueless defense-rating stackers and can even solo mercs. The only thing they can't solo is a good healer, but if they are the only ones attacking a healer the situation is bad anyway. Solo aspect aside, they can contribute a lot in a big AoE massacres dealing almost as much damage as vigi juggs while relatively giving the healers slack when focused (and they get focused occasionally because they are mistaken for skanks), and can hold their own alone versus multiple enemies much longer than even a merc with all DCDs can, giving objective reinforcements tons of time to come.

 

If the majority would just try tanking again, we might get tanks back in PVP and see no more skanks than we see healers with DPS gear who DPS

[KendraP]

For each real pocket healer, there are 4 who respecced to feel OP and don't understand healers need minimal skill to work. But it truly is annoying to encounter a skank and 2 healers all with the same guild name sitting on mid and having their "fun".

 

Skanks are a problem, but they usually don't guard unless they use pocket healers, or they die (commonly seen in arenas. Gotta love the look on the enemies faces when they realize tunneling the tank doesn't work on me because I am not skank ). Real tanks (endurance-high, of course) will become more common if people just realize how viable and actually good they are. They can solo skanks, they can solo DPS, they can solo these poor clueless defense-rating stackers and can even solo mercs. The only thing they can't solo is a good healer, but if they are the only ones attacking a healer the situation is bad anyway. Solo aspect aside, they can contribute a lot in a big AoE massacres dealing almost as much damage as vigi juggs while relatively giving the healers slack when focused (and they get focused occasionally because they are mistaken for skanks), and can hold their own alone versus multiple enemies much longer than even a merc with all DCDs can, giving objective reinforcements tons of time to come.

 

If the majority would just try tanking again, we might get tanks back in PVP and see no more skanks than we see healers with DPS gear who DPS

 

I would argue that the guys who get rofl stomped under focus with a pocket healer either aren't tank specced or are the rerollers who couldn't handle being focused as dps.

 

I get tank tunneled by other premades all the time and survive quite well.

 

That said our difference of opinion on gearing doesn't matter for this forum. We're allied in defense of tanking!

[Glower]

I can’t see any pocket healers causing problems, even with skanks. I do my healing these days on my Jugg than most pocket healers, LoL

 

Please, stop. We get (okay, i got it, cuz im special ) that you are a most awesome jugg in this game but it's just not fun anymore...

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Please, stop. We get (okay, i got it, cuz im special ) that you are a most awesome jugg in this game but it's just not fun anymore...

 

Trixxie kicked your *** on her Jugg, didn't she? =p

[Glower]

Trixxie kicked your *** on her Jugg, didn't she? =p

 

I think that we are from different servers.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I think that we are from different servers.

 

Was just ribben ya abit heh

[Stellarcrusade]

50% damage reduction, no cool down lasts until death.

 

/stupid overpowered

 

This is why healers are so hard to kill; healers without guard are not that hard to kill.

 

To make it even more stupid DPS have this.

 

People here should really learn to play. Guard is easy to handle if you have over a 3rd grade education. First the people who didn't know how to play called for nerfs to healer, then the nerfs came down and: what a shock, those people who do not know how to play STILL have to ask for more nerfs. Give me a break No matter how many nerfs you ask for you will still suck if you do not take the time to get better. PvP on here has no depth already, why not get rid of anything that causes people to think? Go play checkers or farmville.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Stellarcrusade

[Foambreaker]

Please, stop. We get (okay, i got it, cuz im special ) that you are a most awesome jugg in this game but it's just not fun anymore...

 

Oh come on 10 mins with 2 deaths out of 16 people, that is hella fun

[AdjeYo]

Why Guard is a bad mechanic for All.

2 Main reasons: Kills class diversity due to none linear increases in healing needed. Is self defeating by making a target switching problem, that causses none guarded players to gain more Survivability and in the end make Guard redundant.

 

Vision of the future

1st Make up your mind about, if you think it is fair that their is room for all classes in PvP in general? If yes, then proceed with this example:

 

Step 1 - The Healers Choice.

Okay we imagine we play a Healer, who would you rather want to heal?

1) A Tank Guarded "Sage" being focused by multiple DDs

or

2) A Tank Guarded "Slinger" being focused by multiple DDs

 

Why is this?

The reason why this matters is because the Slinger takes roughly 60% due to mitigation before Guard and the Sage takes 85% before Guard. The Slinger without DCDs only need ~70% of the healing and with bunker roughly ~50%. The Slinger can live through from 40% and 100% more damage with bunker. This is even without figuring in, that the healer also need to heal the tank at some point. This also becomes increasingly easier, as it is based on the mitigation of the Guard target.

 

Each time we add something mitigating damage like Taunts and DCDS, the difference in how much healing a Guarded target needs becomes increasingly bigger. To kill a Guarded Sage through Healing you need a very long time and ~2.5 World class DDs, but you need ~5 to kill the Sniper and we can't play more than 8v8.

 

Step 2 - How do the Damage Dealers respond?

Beside these two Guarded players is two more enemy players, a Sage and a Mando. Do the DDs stay with the 1st target or attack some of the others? (while CC'ing the Tank to avoid Guard Swap).

 

Step 3 - How do the Devs respond?

How can the developers adress this without just adding more survival to the Sage? (make Sage only effective in PvP as Healers, which happened) or is the Sage then the next to become a cat like the Merc? Tanking is awesome in PvP, but Guard is just really bad for the State of the Game.

 

First off those numbers on damage taken after mitigation before guard are way off the mark, but let's just gloss over that since they're mostly irrelevant for discussing guard, I just wanted to mention it for the record.

 

So what you seems to believe is that guard gives targets which are already easier to heal a bigger advantage than targets which are more difficult to heal. Using slingers' better defenses than sages' as an example. The problem is, that doesn't quite hold, allow me to explain using an example

 

We'll look at two hypothetical classes here class A and class B, class A has a 20% damage reduction and class B has a 40% damage reduction. They're both getting hit by 10k dps.

Class A takes 8k dps and class B takes 6k dps. We see there's a difference off 2k dps taken between these classes. Now if we slap a guard on both classes, class A takes 4k dps and class B takes 3k dps, suddenly the gap is only 1k dps taken. The reason is simple reducing both values by 50%, we reduce the difference by 50%. In either case it's easier to keep up class B, but by adding in guard the difference gets smaller, not larger.

 

Even then, the whole point of guard is to try to funnel damage away from a certain player. You don't want to be focusing a guarded target (especially not one that is also actively being healed), so it hardly matters how much it affects a sage and a slinger differently, you're probably not going to be focusing them anyway, unless they're very low on health or you're playing dots and are trying to pressure the enemy team with dotspreading.

Edited January 9, 2018 by AdjeYo

[Bejita]

sounds like the personal defense cooldowns of non tank classes needs to be rebalanced, guard is working as intended but no dps should be able to tank even with guard on them

[Stellarcrusade]

sounds like the personal defense cooldowns of non tank classes needs to be rebalanced, guard is working as intended but no dps should be able to tank even with guard on them

 

People should be careful what they ask for. If they reduce guard, they'd have to massively increase the taunt effects and make true tanks completely unkillable in PvP (since they have no dps). Things are balanced well now.

[kissingaiur]

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