Discussion Topic: Game Update 5.4 and the Next Roadmap

[ZionHalcyon]

As of right now, it is not a Legacy currency. But, I know exactly what you're thinking, so let me pre-announce something which I suspect will make you smile, while at the same time, irritate you because I won't tell you when until I update the Roadmap.

 

We are working to change currencies to be Legacy based. This includes unassembled components, credits, the Umbara currency, and more. I'm not aware of any major obstacles preventing this from happening, and doing so will help with a number of changes we are planning for the future.

 

I know that doesn't solve the concern about having to run the Flashpoint multiple times on one character, but once you have the Key to open the Stronghold, you can use the currency for other items on the vendor.

 

Have a good weekend,

 

-Keith--

 

Does this mean a cap raise (or removal of) the credit cap for premium/ftp players?

 

Given that you are touching every currency anyway, maybe cap everything BUT credits for FTP?

[Tsillah]

Does this mean a cap raise (or removal of) the credit cap for premium/ftp players?

 

Given that you are touching every currency anyway, maybe cap everything BUT credits for FTP?

 

Well it's a good question you ask.

 

From my point of view they can go a few different ways. The assumption is that as indicated credits will be shared between a legacy.

 

So what options reasonably exist?

 

1) Remove the credit cap. But this will make subbing a lot less attractive as it is a big one between f2p and subbing.

2) Raise the legacy credit cap either to a new amount. Let's say they raise it to 1 million credits for f2p and 2 million for preferred. Then add 500k to the cap for each character slot added beyond the standard.

3) Raise the legacy credit cap to a new fixed amount regardless of character slots bought. Preferred get a higher cap.

4) Legacy credit storage is for subs only and f2p stays the same with perhaps a raised level cap.

 

Personally the second option would make the most sense to me and the third might be the case. The first and last option in my list would not be desirable I think. Option 1 really would make subbing less attractive and option 4 would create two systems within the game, which will create issues particularly for people who drop their subs but keep playing.

 

I think option 2 is the best idea because it takes into account that people have more characters that they used to be able to store 350k credits on each. So to have a base amount that gets expanded with adding character slots OR to have a new escrow option that permanently raises the legacy credit cap for each additional character token/slot used would keep it interesting for BW as well. This could be a fair service in the CM for non subs. It also makes it more interesting to sub at least for a month or buy something since preferred status would have a raised base cap.

 

That's my ideas on the topic.

[Deewe]

We did read the whole thread and remember we didn't offer that as an option as progression is still part of PvP. Moving Bolster to 250 virtually eliminates the need to get gear and reduces the value for those who have earned Tier 4 pieces.

 

The right answer is we need to resolve the PvP gearing issues, so Bolster gets removed as a central issue.

 

Keith---

Keith,

 

respectfully, you guys keep shooting yourselves in the foot.

PvP should never ever be about gear power progression.

That is a poor way to keep players hooked to the game.

 

Again PvP should be about skill, coordination and momentum. The thrill of epic fights against as geared and eventually more skilled opponents.

 

I don't have any good memory of fights I won because I had better gear. Even I still have very bad flashbacks of the countless of times I've been ganked because of sub-par gear.

Now I'm still fond of the times when we were being crushed by the opponent team for long, till we were finally able to act as a team and turn around the outcome. It is even more rewarding when you know your team is way less skilled than the opponent's one but as supporting each others you are able to survive long enough to win.

 

You do have to turn PvP around, making it about the combat not the gear.

 

Now as incentive, do as all other PvP game do: make it about gear look, make it about getting cosmetic rewards, pets, mounts, decorations. Anything that a player would be proud to display without giving an edge over someone else and so hindering the fun of them.

 

Finally to be totally honest, the highlighted sentence totally points BioWare issue since launch: you do not listen to your player base. The dices were rigged from start. You have an idea and apart slight adjustments you stick to it, whatever the players feedback.

 

Your predecessor did the same with the Galactic Command and there we are months later still trying to patch it.

I wonder how much BioWare wasted on the GC so far and how much more you're going to keep wasting.

The GC was indded a great feature (on paper,) the implementation is another story.

 

Would you have truly listened to the players not only you would not have lost so many subs, (especially the vets,) but also all the spent money could have been invested into new content.

 

But again you are the captain, you can keep digging into what you think is good for the game. Sadly, in the end pretty sure you'll keep loosing more players.

 

P.S.: BTW if you want to make the combat more interesting drastically reduce the STUNs. One should never ever feel like somebody took his keyboard away to easily kill him.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Deewe

[IoNonSoEVero]

I realize that the server populations have gone down, and you need to encourage players to PvP so that queue times are short, but it should not come at the expense of the PvE players.

 

This.

Edited July 29, 2017 by IoNonSoEVero

[casirabit]

I keep hearing ask the players, especially the vets but each player is different, even vets. I been here since launch and frankly I do like the way the Galactic Command works for those that don't do operations, pvp.

 

I suggest once that we make all gear available to all players and what did I get, go do operations then you can get the gear, and that is a bunch of crap. I did some operations and frankly got sick of the attitudes of some of the raiders.

 

I tried to bring in a friend to do some healing for one, and even though she had good gear and augmented gear just because she didn't do any operations yet they said no. Right then and there I said hell with it. I am tired of players being left out of things just because they don't the same thing I do. I don't demand them to do what I do. I have seen it too many times in the past where people say the only right way is to do what they think is right.

 

I am tired of watching "vets" downgrade other players because they don't do what the deem is the right way to play. When in the world did you become the boss of another player and tell them how they should or shouldn't play.

 

Sure GC could do to be a little better, operations should have gear drop better and so should pvp but this attitude do it my way and hell with anyone else that disagrees or doesn't play my way, is wrong. I don't demand people to play my way, hell I don't even demand them to roleplay but some of you do think your way is the only way and that is wrong.

 

Understand not everyone likes your style of play and that is not wrong and stop downgrading other players because of it. The game needs everyone not just one style of play.

[Jdast]

Keith,

 

respectfully, you guys keep shooting yourselves in the foot.

PvP should never ever be about gear power progression.

That is a poor way to keep players hooked to the game.

 

Again PvP should be about skill, coordination and momentum. The thrill of epic fights against as geared and eventually more skilled opponents.

 

I don't have any good memory of fights I won because I had better gear. Even I still have very bad flashbacks of the countless of times I've been ganked because of sub-par gear.

Now I'm still fond of the times when we were being crushed by the opponent team for long, till we were finally able to act as a team and turn around the outcome. It is even more rewarding when you know your team is way less skilled than the opponent's one but as supporting each others you are able to survive long enough to win.

 

You do have to turn PvP around, making it about the combat not the gear.

 

Now as incentive, do as all other PvP game do: make it about gear look, make it about getting cosmetic rewards, pets, mounts, decorations. Anything that a player would be proud to display without giving an edge over someone else and so hindering the fun of them.

 

Finally to be totally honest, the highlighted sentence totally points BioWare issue since launch: you do not listen to your player base. The dices were rigged from start. You have an idea and apart slight adjustments you stick to it, whatever the players feedback.

 

Your predecessor did the same with the Galactic Command and there we are months later still trying to patch it.

I wonder how much BioWare wasted on the GC so far and how much more you're going to keep wasting.

The GC was indded a great feature (on paper,) the implementation is another story.

 

Would you have truly listened to the players not only you would not have lost so many subs, (especially the vets,) but also all the spent money could have been invested into new content.

 

But again you are the captain, you can keep digging into what you think is good for the game. Sadly, in the end pretty sure you'll keep loosing more players.

 

P.S.: BTW if you want to make the combat more interesting drastically reduce the STUNs. One should never ever feel like somebody took his keyboard away to easily kill him.

 

There is a legitimate debate to be had about what role gear should play in PvP. You are not doing yourself any favors, though, when:

 

1) It is virtually impossible to tell the gear scores of both your team and that of the opponent during the match.

 

2) By your own admission, once your team began coordinating you won games -- that undercuts your gear argument.

 

3) A lot of MMO games with PvP do, in fact, reward gear.

 

You need to ask yourself the following question:

 

Absent any gear-related rewards, will some people not participate in PvP? If the answer is yes -- how many? I think it's hard to say. Understand, though, the system you propose comes at a cost to you. Queue times will go up. If you're comfortable with that, so be it.

 

Dasty

Edited July 29, 2017 by Jdast

[Costello]

You nailed it.

 

Even though it may not be apparent, I send so many of your suggestions to the Dev Team. We discuss them, debate them, then if we like something, we determine the effort, and decide when to do it. Keep in mind, we have to work to a schedule to ensure we deliver all agreed upon parts at the right time.

 

What may seem a simple change could very well add weeks of not just Development time, but Engineering, QA, reschedule of VO recordings, localization, and more. Although I'm notorious about asking for changes mid-stream, we desperately try not to, as it can impact everyone and cause schedule delays.

 

--Keith-

ps...sorry for all the posts seemingly all at once. We've been heads down this past week on various planning activities (including the Roadmap update) and realized we hadn't kept you apprised.

 

Maybe you could let people know when there favourate companions are coming back and what is in store as far as the story goes.

 

Currently it seems like the game is on a sort of life support where the best efforts of the team are to keep adding whatever can be produced quickly and cheaply to give people some reason no matter how small to stay subbed. But it seems to do nothing to encourage players to return. Few raid guilds are going to get exited over one boss fight.

 

Worse yet if you can't get raiders interested and offer even less for PvPers to then tie end game to these two pursuits means that end game is only for groups of people that no longer bother to play. What is being done to make the game seem like something decent to return to and what is being done to keep the people that have come for the story?

[santafaye]

Nice that they are finally making credits legacy wide although they will probably take about a year to do it.

 

well my friends i have a couple of ideas ....here are some guild perks like mass rez for when players die in a opps and there are 2 or 3 left standing a one shot rez for the dead would be awesome as a guild perk in opps ..kinda of like mass summon with a guild flag ship. and something els that might be cool maybe rep for guilds and maybe a guild vendor or even guild flags with our guild colors..i think keith charles and eric .are doing a great job you guys rock..something that i think would be cool too is to have dyes in collections .anyway have a great day my friends rock on ..

[Jerba]

There is a legitimate debate to be had about what role gear should play in PvP. You are not doing yourself any favors, though, when:

 

1) It is virtually impossible to tell the gear scores of both your team and that of the opponent during the match.

 

2) By your own admission, once your team began coordinating you won games -- that undercuts your gear argument.

 

3) A lot of MMO games with PvP do, in fact, reward gear.

 

You need to ask yourself the following question:

 

Absent any gear-related rewards, will some people not participate in PvP? If the answer is yes -- how many? I think it's hard to say. Understand, though, the system you propose comes at a cost to you. Queue times will go up. If you're comfortable with that, so be it.

 

Dasty

It is possible to offer gear rewards from PvP if PvE and PvP gear are separated. Then they both have their separate progression. In other words, how the gearing worked pre-5.0. It could be either at 4.0 levels where PvP gear was very cheap, or pre-4.0 where it took at least some time to get it.

 

But as long as PvE and PvP gear are shared, the devs have to balance PvE against PvP, and that will always favor one group of players over the other. The easier solution is to just remove gear from PvP and only leave it for PvE players.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Jerba

[AndreVD]

Any plans for a new event? Gree and Rakghoul events are starting to be boring.

[Exly]

You nailed it.

 

Even though it may not be apparent, I send so many of your suggestions to the Dev Team. We discuss them, debate them, then if we like something, we determine the effort, and decide when to do it. Keep in mind, we have to work to a schedule to ensure we deliver all agreed upon parts at the right time.

 

What may seem a simple change could very well add weeks of not just Development time, but Engineering, QA, reschedule of VO recordings, localization, and more. Although I'm notorious about asking for changes mid-stream, we desperately try not to, as it can impact everyone and cause schedule delays.

 

--Keith-

ps...sorry for all the posts seemingly all at once. We've been heads down this past week on various planning activities (including the Roadmap update) and realized we hadn't kept you apprised.

 

I think that you hit the nail on the head with this post. The problem is that you do not share enough information with us early enough to ensure that you do thing right the first time without the need to do mid stream changes.

 

Be more timely, and more transparent so that we can provide you with the feedback that you need while you are still in the design phase, and the impact on development can be diminished or eliminated altogether.

 

The way that you do thing now leads to fiascos like you trying to use the cxp grind as the only way to get gear. We reacted swiftly and with a strong opposition to this as soon as you announced your plans to do this, but you announced what you were doing too late to change course prior to launching 5.0. As a result of that implementation, you have had to spend resources that could have been used for other things in order to make changes to make the cxp system suck less than it did when it first came out.

 

Likewise, at the launch of 5.0 pvp bolster was set for 250 gear, and I don't remember anyone complaining about that. Then you guys decided that you would take it on yourselves to make changes that really weren't necessary, and are now having to revisit the subject because you did. You could have saved so much time if you took the time to understand that before you took action rather than moving ahead with what you wanted, and not giving us the opportunity to voice our opinions before you misdirected your resources.

 

Try being more proactive and less reactive, and I think that you will find that your job will become easier.

 

Start letting us in on future design changes while you still have time to tweak your plans and then move forward, and stop waiting until it is too late to do anything to request our feedback.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Exly

[Deewe]

There is a legitimate debate to be had about what role gear should play in PvP. You are not doing yourself any favors, though, when:

 

1) It is virtually impossible to tell the gear scores of both your team and that of the opponent during the match.

 

2) By your own admission, once your team began coordinating you won games -- that undercuts your gear argument.

 

3) A lot of MMO games with PvP do, in fact, reward gear.

 

You need to ask yourself the following question:

 

Absent any gear-related rewards, will some people not participate in PvP? If the answer is yes -- how many? I think it's hard to say. Understand, though, the system you propose comes at a cost to you. Queue times will go up. If you're comfortable with that, so be it.

 

Dasty

1. You can certainly tell when there's a difference in gear. Even 5% is a matter of winning a fight.
   
2. Not really. It was when the bolster worked well so gear was not of an issue.
   
3. Certainly not all of them and even less the games 100% focused on PvP
   
4. You missed the point were the rewards were still present but cosmetic. PvPers love them.
   

Edited July 29, 2017 by Deewe

[Stellarcrusade]

As of right now, it is not a Legacy currency. But, I know exactly what you're thinking, so let me pre-announce something which I suspect will make you smile, while at the same time, irritate you because I won't tell you when until I update the Roadmap.

 

We are working to change currencies to be Legacy based. This includes unassembled components, credits, the Umbara currency, and more. I'm not aware of any major obstacles preventing this from happening, and doing so will help with a number of changes we are planning for the future.

 

I know that doesn't solve the concern about having to run the Flashpoint multiple times on one character, but once you have the Key to open the Stronghold, you can use the currency for other items on the vendor.

 

Have a good weekend,

 

-Keith--

 

This is great news and is something that should have been since the start really. One important thought though, the sign of a dying MMO is having a large list of currencies (and things like reputations). Thought should be how we can eliminate all but 1 or 2 major currencies in 6.0. Maybe instead of all those reputations it can just be: reputation. Everything else can be credits. Yes that is challenging from a development standpoint, but that is exactly the point. Too many currencies is simply laziness from development. So of course to eliminate the laziness does require more effort (isn't the whole point of laziness avoiding effort?). Anyhow, if you think about it, you'll see how to make it happen.

[Deewe]

I think that you hit the nail on the head with this post. The problem is that you do not share enough information with us early enough to ensure that you do thing right the first time without the need to do mid stream changes.

 

**snip**

 

Try being more proactive and less reactive, and I think that you will find that your job will become easier.

I am afraid it's not going to happen with Keith either. We will have to wait for a Producer that has that mindset.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Deewe

[Glzmo]

Chat with you all soon.

With chat bubbles, by any chance? Edited July 29, 2017 by Glzmo

[Jdast]

1. You can certainly tell when there's a difference in gear. Even 5% is a matter of winning a fight.
   
2. Not really. It was when the bolster worked well so gear was not of an issue.
   
3. Certainly not all of them and even less the games 100% focused on PvP
   
4. You missed the point were the rewards were still present but cosmetic. PvPers love them.
   

 

I'll only deal with the last point since the first three points would simply turn into a he-said / she-said; i.e., I simply don't believe you have such amazing powers to deduce in a fluid and dynamic situation the difference a few points of gear make. To show that I'm not completely unsympathetic to your argument, I earlier (before I engaged your post) argued that the bolster should be higher than 242.

 

As for the last point, I can only speak from personal experience and that of my friends. Forgive me for being crude, but they are HUTT-LIKE PHAT LOOT W-HORES! (And, I would say that to their faces). If you think cosmetic rewards and titles are enough to sustain PvP queues in this game, then fill your boots. I can name several people, though, who only PvP because it grants them progression related rewards, either in PvE or PvP.

 

FWIW, I think the ultimate solution is to separate the gear systems entirely like Jerba advocates. For ranked systems, I think everyone should have the same gear, or at least the same choices of gear (i.e., some may want to do a crit vs. alacrity build, etc). That would be a true test of skill.

 

Alas, based on my experiences in MMOs, for the unwashed masses in your average WZ or BG, there needs to be a carrot at the end of that stick.

 

In any case, no point in debating any further, we've both made our points and is up to the devs to evaluate.

 

Dasty

Edited July 29, 2017 by Jdast

[Kaizersan]

If you truly care about your players it is time you tell us about implementing server merges OR cross-server queues. Stop ignoring this important issue!!!!!!!!!!!!! Try to play on french or german servers (or any Other except tre), and you will see how bad is it: waiting for queue proc 5-30 minutes, always the same faces on warzones, often premades fighting each other, no people for certain contents (heroic missions, uprisings etc), and no,server transfer is not an exit (people dont want to leave their guild mates, guild ships and for many other reasons).

 

please remove the cross server deal because Keith has already stated in posts that cross server is never going to happen.

[Deewe]

IAlas, based on my experiences in MMOs, for the unwashed masses in your average WZ or BG, there needs to be a carrot at the end of that stick.

Most PvPers do so for the combat, not for the carrot which is a topping. Well when there's no gear difference.

 

Then if players would PvP for the gear stats only, guess once maxed out they would simply stop playing, wouldn't they?

Or do you think people accept being ganked repeatedly because they know in the future they will be able to exert some kind of vengeance, and will keep doing so?

 

Finally the carrot, whatever "statsless", can still be great. You mentioned titles which could be one part still it could go as high as whole strongholds.

Any decent designer can come up with great rewards for players even if there's no stats to them. Rewards that would even make non PvPers drools.

.

• The true question is why do players jump into PvP?
  
• Why do they have fun playing PvP repeatedly with the exact same maps, again and again?
  
• How does other games 100% focused on PvP, whether MMO or not, keeps players hooked?
  

Edited July 29, 2017 by Deewe

[DarthVitrial]

This! Note to self, get these suggestions over to the Dev Team immediately. Think about what can be done in just a few days of effort! Yah, if only!

 

Thanks for ending the week with a smile!

 

--Keith-

OK, but let's not deny that a "Great Train Robbery" style warzone would be pretty awesome.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

We did read the whole thread and remember we didn't offer that as an option as progression is still part of PvP. Moving Bolster to 250 virtually eliminates the need to get gear and reduces the value for those who have earned Tier 4 pieces.

 

The right answer is we need to resolve the PvP gearing issues, so Bolster gets removed as a central issue.

 

Keith---

 

Oh come on Keith, stop ignoring the bloody issue and justify your answer.

 

Why wasn't it an option? Why must we have gear progression? If you really did follow the thread you'll see this was a large part of the discussion being had (that you CHOSE not to partake in) so all you are basically telling me, a paying customer, is "we don't care what you want, this is how we want it" which makes me want to make my money elsewhere.

 

I'd like to enjoy PVP but your design goals don't make this possible. I guarantee you goals keep more people away from PVP than it attracts.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Well, it depends how they implement it. For example, if they add a panel to the legacy bank where you can deposit and withdraw credits, and whenever you try to spend more credits than are on your character, it would take them from the legacy credits, that would be perfect. Then the legacy-wide credits are optional.

 

However, if they just add up the credits from all characters and you can no longer store some credits separately, then this system is forced onto everyone, even players who don't want to have legacy-wide credits like myself.

Also, as someone mentioned on Reddit, this would be a huge issue for server transfers. If your credits are only on your legacy, you'd no longer be able to move your credits to a different server.

 

In such a system I would prefer an auto deposit personally to save me having to muck around with toon hopping i.e. for what I do it's no better than it is now if I have to go to the trouble of changing toons to get to SH then deposit credits then switch toons, get to SH to remove credits etc. - this all of a sudden becomes a minor QoL change for the presumed dev time involved. I say dev time because it would need MAJOR QC else an exploit would utterly ruin the economy permanently (imagine duping a billion credits in a few seconds heh).

 

I doubt they would make the change as a legacy pool of credits but I'd still prefer that over what we have now.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Hi Keith,

 

Are there any plans to fix the economy and insane prices on the GTN? As an average player it was easy to pick up whatever armor set you wanted back in the day off the GTN, but now you have to give up an arm and a leg to make up those credits you need to buy certain decorations or armor sets.

 

I'm sure there are others that share similar opinions about the game economy and it's hurting the players. Especially those coming back to the game and see new stuff from packs that were released months or years ago, and that could be listed from 20 million to 200 million credits which could easily be worth 2 million back then.

 

Imo if they make legacy credits and address F2p/preferred cap concerns by boosting in any form you are going to see even worse inflation ... I don't see them dealing with this at all. If all of a sudden a bot can get 1 mill instead of 200K on a toon that's 5 times more it can earn at a time before it's "master" needs move the credits to a bank toon meaning that's possibly 5 times faster and easier they can get credits to sell.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I know a fair number of people who are F2P or Preferred who would disagree with you on that.

 

Stop with the nonsense posts, actually post why they would NEED extra credits. How does it make them play fun content any more than they currently do?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Does this mean a cap raise (or removal of) the credit cap for premium/ftp players?

 

Given that you are touching every currency anyway, maybe cap everything BUT credits for FTP?

 

I agree with Zion for once, remove the F2P cap! I don't want to have to sub ever again and credits is more or less the only reason I do sub!

 

Actually I joke, it's a blood silly idea removing the cap if you actually like making money.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I keep hearing ask the players, especially the vets but each player is different, even vets.

 

Can we stop with this "vets" thing like it's an actual thing and makes them/us any different to anyone else? Define a vet for one thing - is it playing for 2 years, 4 years, since launch, since beta? It's a silly term because ideally so many people left are ideally vets. Secondly you nailed it yourself but saying "each player is different" so speaking of the "vets" like they are in way, shape or form some singular group of players doesn't work.