Discussion Topic: Game Update 5.4 and the Next Roadmap

[menofhorror]

Can we stop with this "vets" thing like it's an actual thing and makes them/us any different to anyone else? Define a vet for one thing - is it playing for 2 years, 4 years, since launch, since beta? It's a silly term because ideally so many people left are ideally vets. Secondly you nailed it yourself but saying "each player is different" so speaking of the "vets" like they are in way, shape or form some singular group of players doesn't work.

 

You need to cool down. You are getting pretty emotional in your posts.

[Eshvara]

You need to cool down. You are getting pretty emotional in your posts.

 

Can you blame him? It's an emotional thread, we're all sitting down and sharing our feels with each other.😶

[menofhorror]

Can you blame him? It's an emotional thread, we're all sitting down and sharing our feels with each other.😶

 

Hah, well I guess you are right. But I am just saying as I know for myself that one can't properly criticize when you get too emotional/frustrated.

 

Though then again, this thread shouldn't be that emotional.

Edited July 29, 2017 by menofhorror

[Jdast]

Oh come on Keith, stop ignoring the bloody issue and justify your answer.

 

Why wasn't it an option? Why must we have gear progression? If you really did follow the thread you'll see this was a large part of the discussion being had (that you CHOSE not to partake in) so all you are basically telling me, a paying customer, is "we don't care what you want, this is how we want it" which makes me want to make my money elsewhere.

 

I'd like to enjoy PVP but your design goals don't make this possible. I guarantee you goals keep more people away from PVP than it attracts.

 

Insert Lana Kane from Archer voice: What part of he did justify his answer do you not understand?

 

Insert Sterling Archer voice: Well, Lana, obviously the core concept.

 

How many times does it have to be answered / explained: Philosophically, a lot of MMOs believe that progression is still part of PvP. What part of that statement is so difficult to understand?

 

Moreover, gear progression encouarges PvP, which encourages WZs to pop. If they remove that incentive, the WZs pop less frequently. Riddle me this: If you took away UCs from WZs right now, how often would they pop?

 

I know you will (as you so often do) insert incorrectly the word "strawman" but your question has been asked and answered. You just don't like the answer.

 

Dasty

Edited July 29, 2017 by Jdast

[Eshvara]

Hah, well I guess you are right. But I am just saying as I know for myself that one can't properly criticize when you get too emotional/frustrated.

 

Though then again, this thread shouldn't be that emotional.

 

Yeah I do agree, there should be a limit.

[menofhorror]

I agree with Jdast that gear progression or some kind of progression should be part of pvp to encourage activity in warzones. To completely remove that would be a mistake in my eyes

[Eshvara]

I agree with Jdast that gear progression or some kind of progression should be part of pvp to encourage activity in warzones. To completely remove that would be a mistake in my eyes

 

Yeah I agree, Jdast does have a valid point.🤔

Edited July 29, 2017 by Eshvara

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Ignoring whatever hipster nonsense the start of your post goes into ...

 

 

How many times does it have to be answered / explained: Philosophically, a lot of MMOs believe that progression is still part of PvP. What part of that statement is so difficult to understand?

 

Oh look another "MMOs do it so this is how it must have to be" type of response, that's not justification, that's a cop out. Maybe try putting some unique thought into your responses next time?

 

You've basically said they believe it without justifying why they believe it. What nonsense.

 

Moreover, gear progression encouarges PvP, which encourages WZs to pop.

 

Except you have over 70 pages in a bolster thread with many more players stating they don't like gear based PVP and avoid PVP as a result vs very few stating they only PVP because of gear progression but hey, if making up stories and fallacies is how you want to justify your argument then you're doing a GREAT job.

 

 

If they remove that incentive, the WZs pop less frequently. Riddle me this: If you took away UCs from WZs right now, how often would they pop?

 

You argue as though I'm stating they shouldn't replace the gear "reward" with better rewards. Vanity rewards are clearly far more sought after (hell, the game makes a lot of it's money off vanity items via the CM) than gear they need just to be able to play other people on a level footing.

 

So no one is saying remove the incentive to PVP, just remove that incentive and put in a better one.

 

I know you will (as you so often do) insert incorrectly the word "strawman" but your question has been asked and answered. You just don't like the answer.

 

Almost the strawman but you didn't blatantly state I was in favor of removing all incentive for PVP - close though.

 

Also if you get called a strawman and someone can justify why you are being a strawman and your only response is to the effect of "wah wah you called me a strawman" odds are you are a strawman.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I agree with Jdast that gear progression or some kind of progression should be part of pvp to encourage activity in warzones. To completely remove that would be a mistake in my eyes

 

Indeed there should be but it shouldn't be gear. Look at the most successful PVP based games in the world - they have populations magnitudes larger than the PVP (likely the entire game) in this game without needing to hear stat gear grind, vanity systems work wonders for this game and what is more BWA could even cash in further from it with their cash shop as an alternative - meaning you can get your vanity rewards faster by paying more cash and it's not P2W at all because there is no stat gear.

 

They can't have a "get your prizes quicker now" for PVP because that would mean getting stat gear quicker and that is P2W.

 

This supposed "MMO" gear progression model for PVP is an outdated and ultimately inferior model and it's proven to be such solely by how more successful other games do PVP that is at it's hreat quite similar to MMO PVP (Mobas for an example aren't all that far removed from MMO PVP)

[Saevurr]

I've been playing this game since I've had the privilege to have been chosen as a beta tester and have been a subscriber since this game's launch. I've been through two major server mergers over the years, before the introduction of server transfers, and experienced many guilds and raid team disbands. I have also experienced many turnover in SWTOR's developer community over the years and while some of you may think of me as a gluten for punishment for still playing, I am here because I truly love playing this game. I don't think some of the player-base have truly appreciated the hard work the Dev Team has done to address concerns over the years. While I admit, there have been changes to this game's content that I do not agree with, i.e. class balancing and lack of operation content, I do understand that Eric, Keith, and company have been working tirelessly to improve game play. I, for one, am enjoying the new Gods from the Machine operations, and while each boss has been slow in their release, I do appreciate that a lot of thought and care went into the mechanics of the fights that we currently have. I rank Aivela and Esne veteran mode as one of my top three favorite fights. While game content may or may not live up to some of your expectations yet, my only wish is that you please give the Dev Team the respect and courtesy that you would want others to show you. They're human beings like the rest of us, and only by working with them can we improve SWTOR's overall experience for years to come.

[DanNV]

We did read the whole thread and remember we didn't offer that as an option as progression is still part of PvP. Moving Bolster to 250 virtually eliminates the need to get gear and reduces the value for those who have earned Tier 4 pieces.

 

The right answer is we need to resolve the PvP gearing issues, so Bolster gets removed as a central issue.

 

Keith---

 

You're right, you didn't offer bolster to max. However, that's what your players want. A flat, even playing field. Once again, BW isn't listening. You give us three bad to terrible alternatives because you don't want to fix it the way your paying customers want. That means you'll keep losing paying customers. How long can you continue to do that?

 

As to gearing, it isn't just PVP that is FUBAR. And "Fixing" gearing isn't going to make the bolster issue go away. And if it's as good as your idea of "balancing" it'll be a total mess.

 

I had great hopes when you took over, but what I am seeing is more talking at us, no more talking to us. That isn't communication and isn't going to help you stop bleeding subs.

 

But the PvP players want a PvP paradigm where Skill is the determining factor.

The ONLY way to do that is to make Gear as near to irrelevant as is mechanically possible.

 

And that is 100% antithetical to your concept of "Gear Progression" as a part of PvP.

 

You can have A) Skill Based PvP, OR you can have B) Gear Progression Based PvP, you can't have both.

 

Your customers have told you they want A, and you have half said "No, you're getting B".

 

So you "read" the whole thread, but didn't actually take on board what was said.

 

I understand - you want there to be Gear Progression because that is a useful (from Bioware's PoV) proxy term for "Grind" - the continual rinse-repeating of already stale content just to get back to the same relative power level we were BEFORE the last content patch.

 

I have no problem with a grind to "get more powerful", but a grind to "get back to being as powerful as I was 1 year ago" is - frankly - insulting to our intelligence and to our prior efforts.

 

 

All The Best

 

Amen!

 

One annoying thing on forums is when people offer advice, find out it was rejected, and accuse the devs of "not listening." It's entirely possible they listened, read what you wrote -- and, wait for it, wait for it -- disagree.

 

And we can stop paying when they go directions we don't like. Look at server populations and queue times and tell me you think the majority of people play a year ago or two years ago or even three years ago thing they have gone the right direction.

[Jdast]

Indeed there should be but it shouldn't be gear. Look at the most successful PVP based games in the world - they have populations magnitudes larger than the PVP (likely the entire game) in this game without needing to hear stat gear grind, vanity systems work wonders for this game and what is more BWA could even cash in further from it with their cash shop as an alternative - meaning you can get your vanity rewards faster by paying more cash and it's not P2W at all because there is no stat gear.

 

They can't have a "get your prizes quicker now" for PVP because that would mean getting stat gear quicker and that is P2W.

 

This supposed "MMO" gear progression model for PVP is an outdated and ultimately inferior model and it's proven to be such solely by how more successful other games do PVP that is at it's hreat quite similar to MMO PVP (Mobas for an example aren't all that far removed from MMO PVP)

 

One of your more annoying habits (of which there are many) is that in previous posts you almost invariably raise the issue of ...

 

Burden of Proof. You argue that other games have a more successful PvP model.

 

My dear fair lady, please name them!

 

Your most obsequious,

 

Dasty the Hutt

[Jdast]

You're right, you didn't offer bolster to max. However, that's what your players want. A flat, even playing field. Once again, BW isn't listening. You give us three bad to terrible alternatives because you don't want to fix it the way your paying customers want. That means you'll keep losing paying customers. How long can you continue to do that?

 

As to gearing, it isn't just PVP that is FUBAR. And "Fixing" gearing isn't going to make the bolster issue go away. And if it's as good as your idea of "balancing" it'll be a total mess.

 

I had great hopes when you took over, but what I am seeing is more talking at us, no more talking to us. That isn't communication and isn't going to help you stop bleeding subs.

 

 

 

Amen!

 

 

 

And we can stop paying when they go directions we don't like. Look at server populations and queue times and tell me you think the majority of people play a year ago or two years ago or even three years ago thing they have gone the right direction.

 

You think I'm against you when I'm not. We are quite literally arguing actually over the LEVEL of Bolster. I know this may be hard for you to believe, but let's stipulate:

 

1) A lot of us like to PvP.

 

2) In order to fix our PvP rush, we want PvP WZs to pop.

 

3) Encouraging PvE types to PvP is good for everyone

 

You do know that at the end fo the day, we are talking about where the bolster should exist between 242 or 248? That's not really that much in the grand scheme of things. FYI, I originally said 244, but let's say 246. You do understand that this is quite arguably good for PvP?

 

Bottom line: would you complain if the bolster is 246?

 

Dasty

Edited July 29, 2017 by Jdast

[MeNaCe-NZ]

One of your more annoying habits (of which there are many) is that in previous posts you almost invariably raise the issue of ...

 

Having to get personal now rather than addressing the points made against you ... someone is just replying for the sake of replying.

 

Burden of Proof. You argue that other games have a more successful PvP model.

 

Overwatch, LoL, Dota 2, CoD, Battlefront to name a few ...

[Jdast]

Having to get personal now rather than addressing the points made against you ... someone is just replying for the sake of replying.

 

 

 

Overwatch, LoL, Dota 2, CoD, Battlefront to name a few ...

 

None of which have an MMO aspect. If you're looking for a pure PvP game, you listed a bunch of great ones.

 

FYI...I would add Heroes of the Storm to that list. My Lili will WTFPWNU.

 

#waytonotnamecomparablegames

Edited July 29, 2017 by Jdast

[Going]

Please do not vote for 250 bolster....Do you guys understand that in doing so, you will cancel out any gear progression in place? Why would you want that? What benefit does that give people? Please...

[Jerba]

3) Encouraging PvE types to PvP is good for everyone

No, this is not good for everyone, this harms the PvE community. It leads to increased queue times in group finder, and to less PuG operation runs. Any PvE player queueing for PvP is not helping out in Group Finder or PuGs. Endgame PvE currently has a braindrain problem where there are not enough veteran players to teach new players, because the veteran players are forced to PvP to get components.

 

You PvP players may have been happy the last couple months because of short queue times, but this comes at the expense of the PvE community.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Jerba

[menofhorror]

Indeed there should be but it shouldn't be gear. Look at the most successful PVP based games in the world - they have populations magnitudes larger than the PVP (likely the entire game) in this game without needing to hear stat gear grind, vanity systems work wonders for this game and what is more BWA could even cash in further from it with their cash shop as an alternative - meaning you can get your vanity rewards faster by paying more cash and it's not P2W at all because there is no stat gear.

 

They can't have a "get your prizes quicker now" for PVP because that would mean getting stat gear quicker and that is P2W.

 

This supposed "MMO" gear progression model for PVP is an outdated and ultimately inferior model and it's proven to be such solely by how more successful other games do PVP that is at it's hreat quite similar to MMO PVP (Mobas for an example aren't all that far removed from MMO PVP)

 

The difference is that swtor isn't a pvp-based game. Pvp is and always will be a side activity in this game in my eyes.But what games are you talking about?Also are you sure you know the reasons why those games have higher populations? You assume it's because of the lack of gear progression but who knows if that's the truth. I do not know what a vanity system is though.

 

Also isn't anything relating to speeding up progression essentially pay to win?

[menofhorror]

You're right, you didn't offer bolster to max. However, that's what your players want. A flat, even playing field. Once again, BW isn't listening. You give us three bad to terrible alternatives because you don't want to fix it the way your paying customers want. That means you'll keep losing paying customers. How long can you continue to do that?

 

As to gearing, it isn't just PVP that is FUBAR. And "Fixing" gearing isn't going to make the bolster issue go away. And if it's as good as your idea of "balancing" it'll be a total mess.

 

I had great hopes when you took over, but what I am seeing is more talking at us, no more talking to us. That isn't communication and isn't going to help you stop bleeding subs.

 

 

 

Amen!

 

 

 

And we can stop paying when they go directions we don't like. Look at server populations and queue times and tell me you think the majority of people play a year ago or two years ago or even three years ago thing they have gone the right direction.

 

Know your place.

You don't speak for anyone so stop saying "what players want" but rather what you want. How would you know the devs aren't listening? Perhaps they are listening but are disagreeing or have other reasons why they don't agree or don't do some things you want. You loose credibility with that kind of arrogance.

You assume they loose customers because of the thing you want but they don't implement. Again, loose that arrogance of yours, you loose credibility that way.

 

It is communications. What kind of hopes did you have? Perhaps you will find that "dream MMO" somewhere else.

[CountZart]

This is something you have talk to the Devs about:

 

The companions.... the generic companions!

 

Make every companion unique and special.

 

Its been hard for me to swallow the fact that Bowdaar, a 7 feet gladiator... runs around and heals....

Shall we not just make him a tank? Please?

 

The healing companions could have different types of heals. Depending on what you need them for. Same goes for Tank comps and Dps comps.

 

Lets say that you have a Tanking comp that are extremely good at Grappling. Another one has lots of different threats.

 

I think by doing this change, makes it both realistic and fair why in the world we have 150 companions to choose from....

 

Thanks!

[casirabit]

This is something you have talk to the Devs about:

 

The companions.... the generic companions!

 

Make every companion unique and special.

 

Its been hard for me to swallow the fact that Bowdaar, a 7 feet gladiator... runs around and heals....

Shall we not just make him a tank? Please?

 

The healing companions could have different types of heals. Depending on what you need them for. Same goes for Tank comps and Dps comps.

 

Lets say that you have a Tanking comp that are extremely good at Grappling. Another one has lots of different threats.

 

I think by doing this change, makes it both realistic and fair why in the world we have 150 companions to choose from....

 

Thanks!

 

 

They had that at the beginning and most of us were tired of being forced to use specific companions just because they were a dps or healer. This gives us a chance to use which companion we want and then adjust what role they have so this for the most part is better than what we had at launch.

[Ibokagain]

I never saw that one coming ^_^ thank you!!!!

 

Suggestion: consider giving subs a summon group skill (like guilds have). It'd make pugging world bosses or even TC or the monolith (just a few examples) WAY easier.

 

With a guild ship you can do this now, don't need it.

[vadess]

Please do not vote for 250 bolster....Do you guys understand that in doing so, you will cancel out any gear progression in place? Why would you want that? What benefit does that give people? Please...

 

I don't. I'm glad they're not setting bolster to the maximum gear level. I like having some kind of goal, and i can kick *** in subpar gear and above and beyond par.

[Ibokagain]

So Jerba doesn't want legacy credits because of fear of a careless mistake. You, on the other hand, don't want it because you're afraid you lack self-restraint. Sorry, as much as it pains me to say it, I'm with Menace on this one.

 

Incompetence and lack of willpower are pretty poor excuses to punish / inconvenience the broader population.

 

Dasty the Hutt

 

Agree 100%, if you can't double check stuff you buy then it's your fault, and if you just spend credits to spend them, then time to go get more or a sugar daddy.

[Ibokagain]

Hi Keith,

 

Are there any plans to fix the economy and insane prices on the GTN? As an average player it was easy to pick up whatever armor set you wanted back in the day off the GTN, but now you have to give up an arm and a leg to make up those credits you need to buy certain decorations or armor sets.

 

I'm sure there are others that share similar opinions about the game economy and it's hurting the players. Especially those coming back to the game and see new stuff from packs that were released months or years ago, and that could be listed from 20 million to 200 million credits which could easily be worth 2 million back then.

 

Yeah simple fix is don't over spend, problem solved. Really what you want him to do make it so you can buy something worth value for 10 credits?