Discussion Topic: Bolster Changes in PvP

[TheLedomOne]

First off, thanks for looking into this issue.

 

"Bolster is equal to item rating 242"

 

This is my choice. Personally, I think pvp should be more focused on player skill than gear. I have a Marauder that is almost in full 248, and performs very well in pvp. I also have a Sentinel, that isn't anywhere near 248 gear, and the performance isn't good. It's crazy how big the differences are.

 

Alts aren't as fun to play on because my potential is so limited on them.

 

I could go on for a while and talk about how I've seen gear affect performance, but overall, I want pvp to be more about skill rather than gear. Anything done to shape pvp in that direction has my support.

[Torvai]

Maybe you could elaborate how bolster works exactly?

Does it boost existing stats? Or does it completely ignore stats in your gear and only goes for item rating?

[Akushii]

Maybe you could elaborate how bolster works exactly?

Does it boost existing stats? Or does it completely ignore stats in your gear and only goes for item rating?

 

From what I understand, it takes each of the pieces in your gear, and takes it up to the equivalent 238 rating. For example, if you have a 220 Lethal Mod in your armoring, it gets upgraded to a 238 Lethal mod. If you had a lettered mod, it would bolster it to the equivalent lettered mod.

[Yezzan]

Bioware, none of what you have suggested will work because they do not address the problems. Unfortunately, I could not read all 20 odd pages of response, to see if anyone had a solid solution to the issue of gearing for PvP.

 

You cannot make gear irrelevant in PvP - it will disincentivize a lot of players. Hence, you cannot make bolster be 250 or even 248. If you make it 250 gear becomes irrelevant, and that will result in some players loosing interest in pvp. If you make it 248 then it creates the problem of a significant gap between new entrants to PvP and veteran players ( or just anyone who has full 248 rating gear).

 

With the absence of PvP-specific gear, there is an incidental need to make gear progression conform to both PvP and PvE activities. In order to achieve this Bioware must:

 

• Ensure that the highest rating gear is not required to be suitably geared for PvP. Hence, bolster should be 240 (8 levels below the highest rating gear, as it was pre-5.0).
  
• Not to recreate the gear problems that plagued previous patches. For this reason, bolster should create a gear sync - any gear above bolster will be synced to the bolster level (of 240) and receive the same boosts as if the player had 240 rating gear. The reasoning for this is to prevent "over-geared" players from being punished for having higher gear (like before). As this made them a liability to their team.
  
• Players with 240 rating gear will receive slightly better stats than players who are not in 240. This retains the gear progression relevance in the PvP environment without alienating players who are over- or under-geared.
  

[Glocko]

Increase unassembled components and let them be transferable to other toons and 99 percent of the complaining will be done

Double command experience

Make it possible to return any dropped gold gear to vender in exchange for unassembled components

Down the road Perhaps plan to make the top tier 252 difficult to grind for, make the very top gear appealing from a visual perspective, drop unique set bonus gear with different set bonuses that are highly rare to appease the serious gear grinders but make 250 gear a relatively simple process - this would increase the population for wzs, I think just going with the increase bolster does not improve the game. Get creative, make it fun, but fix the problem. It is kind of scary that upping bolster is the first thought of the devs to fix the issue. This is after all of the great progress of the roadmap. ( yes we flame about everything but even the ppl who hate all of the proposals prefer bold changes. On July 11th every person will be excited or a bit scared when they login. We will laugh, cry, discuss, tinker, play with gear, toons and rotations. What will increase bolster by 2 do? - nothing)

 

And if you must ..... Put a bolster buff on the cartel market for 3000 cartel coins in addition to some creative changes - I am all for helping casual players but in all honesty the majority of casual players are not financially supporting this mmo.

 

 

The only reason pvp community is for it is for two reasons

 

1. Gear grind for alternates is too much

2. Tired of hearing from crappy players that it is due to their gear - news flash 99 out of 100 that isn't the reason

Edited June 30, 2017 by Glocko

[VirtualMorrigan]

And another thread where you pretend to be interested in our opinion, just to keep up appearance. There has been zero evidence until now that ANYTHING that people post, or any suggestions they make, will be considered, and ample evidence for the opposite, where people tell you well in advance something will fail, you go ahead anyway, and predictably it doesn't work.

 

This is a waste of time for us, and just a measure to contain the # of negative threads for you. And yet people still fall for it...

[merovejec]

If you make it 250 gear becomes irrelevant, and that will result in some players loosing interest in pvp.

 

Its actually funny cause the PVPers claim that they will not lose interest in PVP if they can just que any day any time any toon! I too think that after a few weeks or months they will already start to be bored and will complain even more on the forums for a change!

[merovejec]

The only reason pvp community is for it is for two reasons

 

1. Gear grind for alternates is too much

2. Tired of hearing from crappy players that it is due to their gear - news flash 99 out of 100 that isn't the reason

 

This is very true! I you make unassembled components legacy wide and increase cap to like 5k-10k people will be able to grind them on their BiS toon and then spend on their alt. Same as it is now with the legacy tokens, I geared all my alts with 230s now, its great!

 

Legacy components would provide a good solution instead of bolster tweaks.

[blackopsranger]

It seems more casual players are in favor of a higher bolster whereas those who have gone through some kind of grind for theirs are in favor for a lower bolster level.

The problem with the casual player method is that those who have say 208 gear on their 65 have no reason to to gain CXP at 70 because bolster to 242 takes care of all their issues. they have a set bonus and essentially tier 3 gear.

TBH the biggest problem is class balance not bolster. Some people fix that by getting better gear some by rolling fotm. If you really want to fix this issue simply remove all stats from everyone and have 1-70 PVP with a separate skill tree, locked stats with the option to change relics only. This will also block "skank tanks" and allow players at level 10 to actually participate in war zones without being globaled. Classes could be balanced for pvp apart from PVE. Stims would also need to blocked but warzone medpacs and adrenals could still be used. In other words throw away bolster entirely.

[Glower]

Its actually funny cause the PVPers claim that they will not lose interest in PVP if they can just que any day any time any toon! I too think that after a few weeks or months they will already start to be bored and will complain even more on the forums for a change!

 

Yeah because everyone was bored with almost free 208 gear. /s

[Alssaran]

Yeah because everyone was bored with almost free 208 gear. /s

 

Quite so! Everyone who did some PvP during 3.0 and 4.0 was basically screaming at the top of their lungs to add a new, long gear grind to keep people occupied and add some fun to the mix. It was all over these forums. Being on even ground after two weeks was horrible! /s

[MeNaCe-NZ]

You cannot make gear irrelevant in PvP - it will disincentivize a lot of players. Hence, you cannot make bolster be 250 or even 248. If you make it 250 gear becomes irrelevant, and that will result in some players loosing interest in pvp.

 

This makes no sense at all based on some of counter arguments being made to not removing gear are concerned. Apparently getting to the top level of gear isn't that much of a big deal and many of these serious grindy PVPers are already there right? Sooo why are they still playing? Why are they here posting? By your logic they should have already lost interest and left as there is nothing left to grind for.

 

Anyway I will never buy this rather half baked argument because quite simply grinding for vanity items will always be a superior grinding replacement.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

This is very true! I you make unassembled components legacy wide and increase cap to like 5k-10k people will be able to grind them on their BiS toon and then spend on their alt. Same as it is now with the legacy tokens, I geared all my alts with 230s now, its great!

 

Legacy components would provide a good solution instead of bolster tweaks.

 

I find it so funny that you think everyone has as much time as you to grind out gear.

Strangely enough under this "grind model" the game has been non stop bleeding players to the current place we find ourselves which is the lowest player base ever seen.

 

Clearly it's not working. Sure BWA could carry on this way (and probably will, I honestly don't see this game lasting another 2 years the way it's going) and bleed more players to eventually settle on an even smaller population of players that actually enjoy this model OR they could make changes to actually try bring back the 1000s of players they've lost.

[Fellow-Canadian]

well if you are casual player doesn't want to grind or work hard for gears that's fine but shouldn't expect to be on par with fully geared players who grind a lot.

you want to be fair in warzones by having bolster to reach same gear level as fully geared players, but have you think about if it is fair for them? Like others said on this thread if we have top gear rating bolster then what's the point of having 4 tiers of gear at all?

some people saying "I dont want to grind for gear at all, I just want to have max gear given and do pvp" is simply lazy and asking too much, maybe MOBA games will satisfy them. even 4.0 and before it takes some grind at least to get top PVP gears

 

I implicitly said I want a progression path for gear. You've equated somehow what I said with wanting gear not to matter at all. There should be a higher tier available to those who put in the hours. The 242 bolster is not the most optimal rank, you still need to grind out best in slot gear.

 

I don't mind a grind for gear, but currently, in 5.0 I think it takes too long. I used to play a lot of characters in PVP, but in 5.0 I just don't have the time to make every character competitive. If you're hardcore enough you can do it, but it's really more of a question of how competitive do you want PVP? I don't find any satisfaction being in a position of rolling my opponents just because I have better gear. When someone plays against me, they will know they died because I outplayed them. Personally, I'm a good enough PVP'er that I can bridge almost any gear gap, but to be able to compete at the highest levels the gear really starts to matter.

 

This is coming from someone who had min/max gear in 3.0, at a time Bioware said only 2% of PVP'ers had best in slot gear.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Fellow-Canadian

[indelible]

I think bolster should be applied up to 236, and everything after 236 should boost stats. It's a nice middle ground, and the grind between hitting cap and getting to 236 isn't that bad. If the stat difference is too large for Bioware's dummy balance, then tweak the multipliers in PvP so that stat points contribute less.

 

I ENJOY getting gear. I don't mind being mildly overpowered by those who put the effort into grind out that gear. Frankly, once you're getting into the legendary tiers... the gear should matter even if it's only in a small way. To mitigate the lack of gear progression in PvP - a core element of a game like this - introduce PvP command crates and add cartel items at higher drop rates to the mix, add in all old PvP gear sets as slotable gear, all old tiered PvE sets, and introduce seasonal vanity sets that drop from crates.

 

tbh, PvP is a mess and no amount of adjusting bolster is going to fix the problem. SWTOR is in a b ad place in general, and deflecting our attention away from the REAL issues on to guff like this is patronising and doesn't inspire any confidence in the future of this game.

Edited June 30, 2017 by indelible

[merovejec]

Yeah because everyone was bored with almost free 208 gear. /s

 

I dunno the game suffered from decreasing subs in those times, many left the game, if I had time i would search up the threads from those days, I bet most of them would be that they want new PVP rewards and maps!!

 

You know why? Cause they were bored!

[merovejec]

I find it so funny that you think everyone has as much time as you to grind out gear.

 

You mean 12 hours per week?

 

Due to family I play from 10 pm to 2 am and that only 3 times per week!! Yes, you are right, its a horrible grind!!

[indelible]

This makes no sense at all based on some of counter arguments being made to not removing gear are concerned. Apparently getting to the top level of gear isn't that much of a big deal and many of these serious grindy PVPers are already there right? Sooo why are they still playing? Why are they here posting? By your logic they should have already lost interest and left as there is nothing left to grind for.

 

Anyway I will never buy this rather half baked argument because quite simply grinding for vanity items will always be a superior grinding replacement.

 

You clearly don't know how logic works, but that's an aside...

 

The answer to your question is implicit in the fact that they got the gear, and are now enjoying the power advantage over other players because they got the gear. That's why they're still playing, and that's why they're still posting. If you remove that incentive, many of those players would stop playing because the promise of a power pay-off at the end of their effrots is removed entirely. That won't be true for all of them, of course, but it would be true for a large number of them.

 

PvP in MMOs has a long-established history where stats have been important, and one of the core draws of PvP in an MMO isn't balance but the promise of power increases against other players.

 

As for the entire "grinding for vanity items" shtick; the evidence from other games that have pushed for vanity to be the driving motivator in both PvE and PvP has been hideously mixed. Blizzard have tried to force that particular egg down the throats of raiders, and that ultimately led to the raiding community losing steam and practically dying out; it never recovered. There is absolutely no evidence that vanity is a good motivator for PvP in MMOs; I can think of no solid examples of it working. The only thing that seems to have worked in addressing PvP balance and gear power creep is... limiting the gear and items that can be used in PvP. GW2 is a great example of this, and FFXIV is moving towards that outcome as well. WoW has had pure PvP gear for a while. The MMOs that have succeeded in ironing out gear issues in PvP don't rely on bolster mechanics like Bioware do, because they are a simplistic and crude approach that removes one of the core incentives and drives players away to other games. If that's the outcome you want, then let's have a 250 bolster. I, and many like me, will leave.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

 

PvP in MMOs has a long-established history where stats have been important, and one of the core draws of PvP in an MMO isn't balance but the promise of power increases against other players.

 

 

That very well may be true in other MMOs, but the fact is, there is no precedent for that in this game. However things may work in other games, it can't be assumed that everyone will take it for granted such applies in this game.

 

 

Personally, I don't care how PVP shapes up, I'm fine with BIS gear in PVP, I'm fine with Bolster, I'm fine with the pre-5.0 PVP set up. But the majority of PVPers do not want gear differences as they have never really had gear differences in PVP before in this game. Unless they are playing some of those other MMOs, they couldn't care less how it works in them.

 

Whatever makes the most people happiest is the way they should go. People who only play PVP want their PVP how it's always been before and they're entitled to their point of view just like anyone else.

[indelible]

You mean 12 hours per week?

 

Due to family I play from 10 pm to 2 am and that only 3 times per week!! Yes, you are right, its a horrible grind!!

 

I play for 2 hours a day, on average, and I manage to gear up pretty quickly. Honestly, if that grind wasn't there... I'd have nothing to do. That isn't to say I don't think the grind could be more rewarding, because it good, but the problem isn't the grind itself. I'd go so far as to say that if they sort the reward schemes out, made it more exciting, people would love the grind. Take a look at WoW; you can say what you want about welfare legendaries, but the wider player base seems to have responded well ( regardless of what a few ape elitists have to say about it ).

[DarkSaberMaster]

To all the people making these claims that PvPers would get bored from not having a gear grind, just stop. Seriously because it is obvious that you do not frequent this board or encounter PvPers in game. If we wanted a gear grind so much, why the hell did we beg for WZ/RWZ coms to be legacy wide? Why did we beg for them to raise the cap on said coms? Why did the forum jump for joy and praise the dev team for actually listening and raising it to 250k? So seriously. Stop the bs. We loved the fact that when a new gear tier was introduced, we had the coms on day one to upgrade our gear and get into the action immediately from having those banked coms.

 

PvPers get bored in this game because we are tired of playing the exact same maps everyday. We get bored because we are tired of every season having to deal with the new FOTM. We are especially tired of the lack of frequency of fixing blatantly OPed specs that are allowed to fester for 2+ years. That is why we complain on these boards. Not once have I ever seen anybody who is a PvPer complain about not having a gear grind. And I have been on these boards since beta.

 

So devs. Keep the progression raiding gear grind with the PvEers. That's what they do. That's what they like. Us PvPers just want fair and balanced (As fair and balanced as possible) fights. Offer cosmetic rewards that give us bragging rights. And offer us more maps a year instead of the one map every three. And fix the blatant OPed abilities you introduce into the game in a timely manner and you will hardly ever hear from us again.

[Wimbleton]

I'd perfer you just make it 248. Reasons:

1) I can play my alts.

2) Even if you make it 247, srettihs will complain about gear. They think they are terrible because of gear. We need to show them thats not the case so they can all say everyone else is hacking, since all other excuses are unavailable. Then we can laff at them some more.

[TUXs]

Lower or Remove the bolster

 

We spent a ton of time and effort to gear up and have the best advantage over other players but instead you bolster them so high that they don't even need gear to compete. We pvpers in all min-maxed 248s worked hard and earned our gear. Your bolster and tiered geared are contradicting too. Why even have tiers of gear if your just going to bolster as high as you do?

You have GOT to be trolling this thread...right? This is the worst reason I've ever heard...and absolutely hurts PvP participation...so you have got to be trolling right?

Get Good and you will have that advantage.

THIS is the only advantage you should need in PvP. Not gear, not OP class...just be better. Anything less than that is poor design.

[Deewe]

Hi guys,

 

I see quite a few comments mentioning PvP would be boring without some gear progression.

I don't know but I played Paladins (OverWatch competitor) till 3AM yesterday and had a blast. Had a hard time stopping in fact. Yet I wasn't working towards any gear progression at all. Just having fun with some classes and getting better with my chars.

 

Sometimes I won, others I lost but it was never because of someone else having better gear.

Sometimes I kept being ganked yet it was ok. For example the opponent team immediately switched focus on my healer each time I landed back in. Beat my own record of 50 deaths in a match yet we won, cause I dragged them away from the capture point long enough and my team adapted perfectly

One time I killed their whole team one after the other landing mines with BombKing at their spawn point and I felt bad for them blowing them out immediately after passing through the respawn point.

Another time the match was so balanced it lasted like 40 min without a team taking enough edge. - Had a hell of a tank in my team -. Was just drained out after that match.

 

Then again it was not a matter of having a better gear, still people can choose their "skills" and buffs so none game is ever the same and if I anybody thinks a class is better than anyone else he can just pick it up.

 

So again PvP fun does not lies in grinding gear for the stats yet reaching gear (or character customization) for display and show off is certainly something to consider.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Deewe

[analyis]

The bolster system in place now is the best this game has seen for subscribers that play both PVP and PVE. As one of those players i have full top tier gear and a high valour rank (not quite 100 but close). I understand 100% PVP'ers are upset that the "newbs" with full 248 and low valour actually have a fighting chance unlike the old days when top tier PVE gear just got you flagged as an easy kill. But really (with the exception of 4 on 4) winning or losing depends mostly on team coordination and skill. If a bolster change is a must i say scrap it for everyone with the exception of 100 valour pvp'ers with 242 gear (bump them to 248), 236 (bump to 242) anything less than 236... you don't deserve bolster.