Class changes: Nerf vs. Buff

[fifteendollers]

The problem is, that your numbers don't fit with the numbers of the theocrafters. When you say, range-burst-classes should do -5% of the target dps and the target dps is - just an example - 10.000 dps, then the range between the top-classes and the bottom-classes is 1.000 dps. The numbers of the theocrafters are telling us, that, atm the range between the top- and the bottom classes is 1.400 dps.

 

Bioware's numbers are what the game WILL be balanced on. Theorycrafters can only work with what the game in it's present state tells them. Bioware on the other hand can make any change they want to the game to suit their numbers.

 

If there is a discrepancy between Bioware's numbers and what is reality in game, then Bioware can change the game to suit their numbers. Which is exactly what they're doing with 5.3.

[ZionHalcyon]

Bioware's numbers are what the game WILL be balanced on. Theorycrafters can only work with what the game in it's present state tells them. Bioware on the other hand can make any change they want to the game to suit their numbers.

 

If there is a discrepancy between Bioware's numbers and what is reality in game, then Bioware can change the game to suit their numbers. Which is exactly what they're doing with 5.3.

 

EXACTLY this.

[DanNV]

Hey folks,

 

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

(snip)

-eric

 

Eric, nice try. However I have seen how well BW does at balance and adjustments. To say the outcome tends to be absolutely terrible would be the understatement of the week. I have no idea where you get your numbers from, or who's idea of math comes up with what to adjust to balance, but I can tell you it AWLAYS misses. BW hasn't gotten it right since launch, in fact most of the time it just makes the snowball of bad get bigger. Why should I or any other paying customer believe you'll even get close this time? What is ti make us believe that the sledge hammer BW uses to crack eggs won't get used here, too?

 

Sorry, Eric, but I don't believe BW can get it right. I don't believe your combat team really has any idea what they are doing or how each change effects the other changes they make. So, I expect I'll be canceling my sub in July if things go through as announced. You've over nerfed my previous raid toon and I'm not going to pay to play when you do it to this one, too. Nothing in this game is worth trying to gear another character in another class just to try to get back to where i am now.

[Tadagyt]

Can we please have a 500% cxp event lasting from asap until 5.3 goes live?

 

I am trying to do the grind to get another character to ready to op to replace my merc that you are planning on nerfing to an unsuitable level for pve, but I am having a difficult time motivating myself to go through that grind again at current cxp levels.

 

 

This. I'm in the same situation... again. I happen to play all the classes they destroy with their "class balance".

[Exocor]

I don't believe your combat team really has any idea what they are doing or how each change effects the other changes they make.

 

In my opinion it should be very easy to balance the classes in case of dps. Use the table / maths mentioned above, adjust some numbers and run it on a testing system. Try&Error.

[MandFlurry]

Hey folks,

 

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

 

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

 

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

 

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

 

-eric

 

Sorry, and thank you Eric for explaining what i was trying to propose. Obviously i was not thinking of that like you guy are. Do you have a Kung-fu Mastery guide that you guys use and study for such things.?

 

I am joking, heheh. But thanx for posting about a conversation that i have been talking about for a long time. As if we brought every Class up to Mercs, etc, etc. Then the Devs would have to Revamp the "whole of the game in every combat scenario".

[ccooknineofive]

So, what are those target numbers? Are they measured against a Dummy or are they the expected "Effective DPS" after mechanics, DCDs and Self-Heals are factored in? Why are the DPS targets similar for Commandos and Sages who wear different kinds of armor? (Light armor means you have to use DCDs or Self-Heals more, reducing the "Effective DPS." The Sage has less armor, and has Self-Heals and DCDs that are less effective and more time-consuming; all around "Effective DPS" loss compared to a Commando.)

 

 

There is nothing wrong with everyone being stronger than your balance targets. It just means the balance targets are wrong. Balance Targets should not become the next Sacred Cow after CXP.

 

At any rate, we should not be talking about content as if it is one undifferentiated lump.We should distinguish between:

 

 

• PvP - Should be balanced separately. There seems to be some agreement among player-base (independent threads in PvP forum) that the TTK is too long currently. I believe reducing TTK would be desirable (except for Sages). I hope other PvPers will chime in with their views. Bottom Line: Buffing most Disciplines up to the current top DPS is beneficial. (But the real problem lies in Combat Proficiencies and Stuns/CCs etc.)
   
   
  
• Levelling PvE - Already easy. All Disciplines can comfortably complete this content. No one has complained about differences in ease of doing this between Disciplines. Bottom Line: Buffing most Disciplines up to the current top DPS will not make a difference.
   
   
  
• SM Group PvE - Generally, there is no problem currently. One or two Uprisings or Operations might be challenging for all-Sage teams now. Buffing all Disciplines will allow more people to have a better experience in completing them. There's no reason these activities have to take longer than they currently do, unless we want to intentionally slow down progress. Bottom Line: Buffing most Disciplines up to the current top DPS will have a mild positive effect.
   
   
  
• VM Group PvE - One or two Uprisings and some Operations would be very challenging for all Sage teams currently. Bottom Line: Buffing most Disciplines up to the current top DPS is beneficial.
   
   
  
• MM Group PvE - Teams do not form with Sages or Sharpshooters. Adding Commandos to that list is not an improvement. If everybody's DPS comes down, there will not even be the possibility of a team carrying one Sage or Sharpshooter with them; teams just won't have the DPS margin anymore to do that (Excluding FPs?). Bottom Line: Buffing most Disciplines up to the current top DPS is the only rational approach.
  

TL, DR: Buffing most Disciplines up to the current top DPS is the way to go. It does not actually need "rebalancing the entire game."

Picking a Nit:

 

I hope the balancing guys (combat team) are good with numbers. Many of us have learnt over the years (or in school) that if you travel 10% faster, you won't arrive in 90% of the original time. If the DPS is higher by 20%, the TTK is shorter by 16.7% (assuming a Dummy as the target.)

 

Please report to Bioware Monday morning, the team needs someone like you that actually gets it! I agree with everything you have stated.

Eric....your fired

[MandFlurry]

This. I'm in the same situation... again. I happen to play all the classes they destroy with their "class balance".

 

Every MMO that i have known and played has a "Balance problem." Unfortunately all MMO's usually accidentally, though usually testers tell the Devs, is that when Nerfing a Class/Profession, than the Yin and Yang are still out of balance with other Classes, including Nerfed ones, suffereing. Unfortunately, a lot of it is due, because when the Testers try and help the Devs with a better idea to keep other Classes from being over-powered, and some of our other Classes Under-powered, then the Devs usually already have that Nerfed or Over-powered Class/ Classes coded in their own Private Database, that isn't in the Private Test server.

 

So then what we have by the last testing cycle, is the fact that the Devs usually have too much pride, and won't admit, or are on a schedule in which they cannot, or will not break. I wished to God that the Devs would listen more to some suggestions. Though fact remains that some Testers want too much and can also end up taking over the forums, which ruins other peoples needs and the Devs, in getting the classes balanced.

 

It's really a 2 way street, that both Devs and Players must respect each other, as long as things are constructive.

Edited June 21, 2017 by MandFlurry

[MuskyBoy]

When taking into consideration dps numbers is AOE damage taken into consideration? If lightning sorc and arsenal are supposed to do the same damage, lightning has the advantage because they have AOE damage in their single target rotation, if madness sorc gets buffed to the same as IO (which in theory is fine) madness will have the advantage due to death fields dot spread, for IO you need to use 2 abilities that are not in the single target rotation to get your dot spread, this will mean that madness will out perform IO. If marksman and arsenal are supposed to be they same Marksman has significantly better AOE with suppressive fire as compared with sweeping blasters again giving marksman the advantage. While most dps number balancing should consider single target dps, AOE damage and how easily it's applied shouldn't be ignored.

[Lahandra]

When taking into consideration dps numbers is AOE damage taken into consideration? If lightning sorc and arsenal are supposed to do the same damage, lightning has the advantage because they have AOE damage in their single target rotation, if madness sorc gets buffed to the same as IO (which in theory is fine) madness will have the advantage due to death fields dot spread, for IO you need to use 2 abilities that are not in the single target rotation to get your dot spread, this will mean that madness will out perform IO. If marksman and arsenal are supposed to be they same Marksman has significantly better AOE with suppressive fire as compared with sweeping blasters again giving marksman the advantage. While most dps number balancing should consider single target dps, AOE damage and how easily it's applied shouldn't be ignored.

 

But in how many op encounters does AOE really come into play? In most cases, you're talking about a single target, or target to target swap situation. So, other than a few encounters where that dps may come out on top due to adds and such, it mainly comes down to the single target damage in the end. Currently, I can only think of a few of the HM/NIM encounters where I would spec MM on a sniper. The vast majority of the time it's either Vir in most cases, or Engi in a few. Taking your example into consideration, even with the AOE present in lightning spec, an Arsenal merc will shred a lightning sorc in almost any op encounter and is much in need of a nerf. Again, maybe not quite as big a nerf as they are proposing, but that spec is currently op for burst ranged without a doubt. IO currently out performs Madness by a mile in almost any raid encounter. So again, how much does AOE really matter in PVE? Unless you're concerned about getting trumped on trash pulls...... Almost every NiM raider I have played with is familiar with all the specs on their toon regardless, so it's not like you don't have options regardless of class, unless you're a sorc at the moment.....

Edited June 21, 2017 by Lahandra

[Exly]

The problem is, that your numbers don't fit with the numbers of the theocrafters. When you say, range-burst-classes should do -5% of the target dps and the target dps is - just an example - 10.000 dps, then the range between the top-classes and the bottom-classes is 1.000 dps. The numbers of the theocrafters are telling us, that, atm the range between the top- and the bottom classes is 1.400 dps.

 

So, my suggestion would be, to ensure, that the results of your changes are pushing the classes at the right place. It would be very fatal, if players swap to melee sustained-dps classes, because their burst is equal or better, than burst-range-classes while their sustained damage is outperforming them.

 

All in all, I don't have problems with the class-balance-plan. But I have problems with the way, the team is realizing it. That the target DPS is somewhere around 10.000 is not difficult to guess (see numbers above). Merc is currently on the target dps - balance him at 9.500 and everything would be okay.

What I wanted to say: It is very nice to see your plans. It would be much nicer, to see your numbers and your formulas. Currently we only have the tables of the theocrafters, where we can rely on. Comparing their numbers with your plans gives us the impression, that the team doesn't know, what they are doing.

 

I agree. They say that they want to bring more transparency to what they are doing, and what better way to show it that to show us the numbers. Heck, maybe they a can even do a live stream from the test server where people from the studio show us how hard mode and nim ops will still be doable with all classes after the balance changes are done. A one day marathon of them doing as many ops as they can squeeze in would be interesting to see.

 

Edit: Or maybe they could just show us some play test video with star parse and running as they do hard mode and nim bosses with nerfed classes. Of course if they do this I want to see the clock on the screen so that I can determine how many wipes they had trying to get that perfect run to show us how it's meant to be done.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Exly

[FtWorthJim]

I cannot solo Belsavis heroics even with rank 50 Mako, she dies in seconds, even if i have tier 4 full armor and 3 years game experience. Star Fortresses? NO CHANCE.Well congrats, you just FORCED everyone to make a marauder because Jaesa is currently the strongest companion in game, with exaggerated DPS.

 

I call shenanigans. If you cannot do Plantery Heroics in T4 gear, and a lvl 50 Comp, then you are doing something seriously wrong.

[MuskyBoy]

But in how many op encounters does AOE really come into play? In most cases, you're talking about a single target, or target to target swap situation. So, other than a few encounters where that dps may come out on top due to adds and such, it mainly comes down to the single target damage in the end. Currently, I can only think of a few of the HM/NIM encounters where I would spec MM on a sniper. The vast majority of the time it's either Vir in most cases, or Engi in a few. Taking your example into consideration, even with the AOE present in lightning spec, an Arsenal merc will shred a lightning sorc in almost any op encounter and is much in need of a nerf. Again, maybe not quite as big a nerf as they are proposing, but that spec is currently op for burst ranged without a doubt. IO currently out performs Madness by a mile in almost any raid encounter. So again, how much does AOE really matter in PVE? Unless you're concerned about getting trumped on trash pulls...... Almost every NiM raider I have played with is familiar with all the specs on their toon regardless, so it's not like you don't have options regardless of class, unless you're a sorc at the moment.....

 

Clearly you didn't read what I posted. I said if you buff madness to IO levels then madness has the advantage over the merc equivalent (sustained ranged dps) if you put arsenal single target dps the same as lightning and marksman (ranged burst) then those 2 have an advantage over arsenal due better AOE. As I said single target is the priority but aoe damage needs to be considered.

Edited June 21, 2017 by MuskyBoy

[scardera]

Hey folks,

 

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

 

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

 

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

 

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

 

-eric

 

yeah we know how you handle NERF just look at sorcerer LMAO. Next time maybe dont wait 7 month before nerfimg my class to death so i dont have to grind your terrible CXP system for 1000+ crates to gear another toon in 248 for NIM Raid ty

Edited June 21, 2017 by scardera

[Morteficare]

Im only speaking for my self here.

I wait untill all classes are done and then i will speak my mind.

 

For what people pars are not intresting for me becous what geting out in a fight is more intresting.

What i see is there is a huge diffrence on peoples damage and its all about skill. There is a reson why all playe a merc now, its easy to do good dps, its easy to staye alive and compere that whit a dps sorc.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

But in how many op encounters does AOE really come into play? In most cases, you're talking about a single target, or target to target swap situation. So, other than a few encounters where that dps may come out on top due to adds and such, it mainly comes down to the single target damage in the end. Currently, I can only think of a few of the HM/NIM encounters where I would spec MM on a sniper. The vast majority of the time it's either Vir in most cases, or Engi in a few. Taking your example into consideration, even with the AOE present in lightning spec, an Arsenal merc will shred a lightning sorc in almost any op encounter and is much in need of a nerf. Again, maybe not quite as big a nerf as they are proposing, but that spec is currently op for burst ranged without a doubt. IO currently out performs Madness by a mile in almost any raid encounter. So again, how much does AOE really matter in PVE? Unless you're concerned about getting trumped on trash pulls...... Almost every NiM raider I have played with is familiar with all the specs on their toon regardless, so it's not like you don't have options regardless of class, unless you're a sorc at the moment.....

 

however did you guess? yup .:D i'm a sorc :D:D and i'm waiting eagerly to see if this time they'll come up with something good that DOES actually bring up the DPS and not just on paper. Problem is that even when 2 players play the same class / spec. They might actually not be as good as that 3rd one that made the leaderboard. What i mean is person skill (or lack of) usually influences the DPS u are capable of doing quite a bit lol. I'll go out on a limb here and assume that when they make them changes they either rely on data from some people selected to beta test them changes, or on the data provided by the leaderboard lol. In either case it's very likely that only the ....maybe top 5 or top 10% of any given class will actually be able to achieve that elusive target DPS.... and when everyone and their mother can level up a merc and do good DPS instantly, that's when u know it's OP lol. cause really, arsenal rotation is eazzy.... so doing good is not hard at all. so yes, some nerf might be needed (but as usual not as big as what it currently sounds like).

[RikuvonDrake]

Don't think you correctly understand the issue with sorc DPS at the moment, the class works when there is an encounter with multiple adds or bosses, however as a single target both specs are useless, Bioware doesn't need to buff sorcs, just readjust the spec to be more suitable for a single target encounter.

 

Edit: Why do you have "Not Good Enough" in your signature, I don't think you are part of our guild, we haven't had a Sage DPS in the main team since Patch 2.4, are you one of our social members?

 

Edit2: Turns out you are one of our social members.

Edited June 21, 2017 by RikuvonDrake

[Yezzan]

I do not believe that they should nerf a class because the class is doing more than the DPs they want it to do. If it was an accident, like the double stance bug for Assassins, then sure. But, out side of that you have to evaluate content and see if the DPS overtuned for the content.

 

Somehow, I feel that BW,when making Master Mode Chapters and Master Mode Operations, do not take in account these DPS categories. I think they just ramp you the damage of NPCs in these different content areas by a percentage and hope that players can "Beat it" FULL STOP. And this is why you have classes that cannot clear certain content because their DPS was not taken into account.

 

Who is clearing Master Mode chapters with TK Sages and Balance Sages? maybe someone, competent, should try it. I tried and got rekt.

[Evolixe]

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

 

-eric

 

So after all the posts and threads made in the last week, you guys still don't believe you might want to change your approach to doing things?

 

Well then.

[ZionHalcyon]

Im only speaking for my self here.

I wait untill all classes are done and then i will speak my mind.

 

For what people pars are not intresting for me becous what geting out in a fight is more intresting.

What i see is there is a huge diffrence on peoples damage and its all about skill. There is a reson why all playe a merc now, its easy to do good dps, its easy to staye alive and compere that whit a dps sorc.

 

I wish more people had your attitude.

[ZionHalcyon]

So after all the posts and threads made in the last week, you guys still don't believe you might want to change your approach to doing things?

 

Well then.

 

Why should they? They spelled out how they want to balance the professions in a very straightforward fashion. As a player, I couldn't ask for more transparency. I may not be a fan of all the changes, but they explained their reasoning, so I accept the paradigm and will wait to see what it delivers.

[Isaee]

Hey folks,

 

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

 

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

 

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

 

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

 

-eric

 

And thats where it is flawed in my opinion. Just Balancing around DPS , HPS , DTPS dont has the def CD's with it. Just alone though the reflect mechnics of some classes they can do more dmg when they use their skills at the right situation then intended ... as example Karraga the Unyielding :

 

Jugger / Guardian can just set their points for 5 secs sword reflect instead of 3 ( and yes it works with the 3 version too but why should someone just ignore dmg dealt things ? ) ... if they used it when they go into the void karraga is making they make much more dmg than just hitting the boss. When they do norma hitting the boss while reflöecting lets say on a tripple field of the void ( some grps enforce it this way ) the dmg will sky rocket and thats just because of the reflect not because of the normal dmg they can do.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Isaee

[Evolixe]

Why should they? They spelled out how they want to balance the professions in a very straightforward fashion. As a player, I couldn't ask for more transparency. I may not be a fan of all the changes, but they explained their reasoning, so I accept the paradigm and will wait to see what it delivers.

 

The transparancy isn't the problem. The method itself is.

 

I'm done waiting to be honest. They have proven to be slow, inconsistent, indecisive and most of all incorrect in their way of handling balance that by now I've seen enough to know how this will go.

 

 

The game is just too big to look at it in such a simplified manner. You can't just "balance" DPS/HPS and DTPS and then only look at the other stuff 3 months later. DPS/HPS en DTPS stand in direct symbiosis with DCD's and Utilities.

But that is not a concept that seems to be understood around Biowares office hallways.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Evolixe

[stoopicus]

I cannot solo Belsavis heroics even with rank 50 Mako, she dies in seconds, even if i have tier 4 full armor and 3 years game experience. Star Fortresses? NO CHANCE.Well congrats, you just FORCED everyone to make a marauder because Jaesa is currently the strongest companion in game, with exaggerated DPS.

 

I have to assume you are trolling because no one could be this full of fail and still remember how to breathe.

[Storm-Cutter]

Hey folks,. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking. .

 

-eric

 

This is probably a good enough reason not to keep upping the level cap - -rebalance the PvE content maybe, but rebalancing this and increasing level cap seems a whole lot of work for not much gain.... And it tends to annoy people more than it pleases that there is another 5 levels to strive for and a whole new set of gear.

 

You got your gear grind with CXP - and it's taken months of back-peddaling to change it. - Leave it as is, and develop more *content*....... please.