Class changes: Nerf vs. Buff

[EzioMessi]

I don't have the skills or schooling to fix a technical problem with my internet. My education and skills lie in the legal field and to insist I know something about the techincal issues on an internet problem would be stupid since I have do not have the skills nor the knowledge to fix it. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would know this.

 

I don't think they were saying you possess skills that you said you don't. They were saying that tech support in ISPs probably don't possess the skill you think they do.

 

'Twas a joke.

[EzioMessi]

Customers are great at pointing out a problem, but not so great at identifying its cause. Let alone knowing the best solution.

 

As true as that is, when the PvPers say "Mercs are really hard to kill right now" and Bioware responds with "okay we'll make it harder for them to kill bosses", it leaves a bit of a bitter taste.

 

Likewise when PvErs say that they don't use Sorc DPS for being borderline viable, and instead of bumping Sorc DPS up, they see Merc DPS being nerfed.

 

So it's not quite cut and dry as problems being hard to fix, so much as many players feeing Bioware is fixing entirely different problems.

Edited June 21, 2017 by EzioMessi

[TUXs]

As true as that is, when the PvPers say "Mercs are really hard to kill right now" and Bioware responds with "okay we'll make it harder for them to kill bosses", it leaves a bit of a bitter taste.

 

Likewise when PvErs say that they don't use Sorc DPS for being borderline viable, and instead of bumping Sorc DPS up, they see Merc DPS being nerfed.

 

So it's not quite cut and dry as problems being hard to fix, so much as many players feeing Bioware is fixing entirely different problems.

EXACTLY how I feel. The Decoy change to Mercs was 100% needed...the nerf to damage was not.

[mike_carton]

This is probably a good enough reason not to keep upping the level cap - -rebalance the PvE content maybe, but rebalancing this and increasing level cap seems a whole lot of work for not much gain.... And it tends to annoy people more than it pleases that there is another 5 levels to strive for and a whole new set of gear.

 

You got your gear grind with CXP - and it's taken months of back-peddaling to change it. - Leave it as is, and develop more *content*....... please.

 

This is a good idea, meaning I agree with it.

 

Keep the level cap and gear rating cap in place for 2 years at a time. Gives the development team time to balance everything, fix bugs and introduce new story and gameplay elements into a stable environment. There will be time to see how things are working out, and how they're influencing a new meta. Players won't feel like they're constantly running to just be able to stay in the same place.

[Lahandra]

Clearly you didn't read what I posted. I said if you buff madness to IO levels then madness has the advantage over the merc equivalent (sustained ranged dps) if you put arsenal single target dps the same as lightning and marksman (ranged burst) then those 2 have an advantage over arsenal due better AOE. As I said single target is the priority but aoe damage needs to be considered.

 

And it appears you didn't really pay attention to the reply..... AOE, in the grand scheme of things.... really isn't that big of an issue. Certainly not on most boss fights or 1v1 in pvp. So other than trash pulls, clustering in pvp, or the occasional boss fight with adds, it's not really that important of a difference.

[Lahandra]

however did you guess? yup .:D i'm a sorc :D:D and i'm waiting eagerly to see if this time they'll come up with something good that DOES actually bring up the DPS and not just on paper. Problem is that even when 2 players play the same class / spec. They might actually not be as good as that 3rd one that made the leaderboard. What i mean is person skill (or lack of) usually influences the DPS u are capable of doing quite a bit lol. I'll go out on a limb here and assume that when they make them changes they either rely on data from some people selected to beta test them changes, or on the data provided by the leaderboard lol. In either case it's very likely that only the ....maybe top 5 or top 10% of any given class will actually be able to achieve that elusive target DPS.... and when everyone and their mother can level up a merc and do good DPS instantly, that's when u know it's OP lol. cause really, arsenal rotation is eazzy.... so doing good is not hard at all. so yes, some nerf might be needed (but as usual not as big as what it currently sounds like).

 

Yes, Arsenal is a joke of a rotation, and the fact that it can remotely keep up with I/O in ops atm is pretty pathetic. I too look forward to the buff for sorcs, but was disappointed with no proposal for a slight buff for lightning. I had honestly expected a nerf for Arsenal merc, and a slight buff for lightning and MM to bring all the ranged burst in line. Then a significant boost for madness as it's ranged sustained, which it looks like we are getting. But hey, I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt until all the changes are made. I'm just tired of the FOTM merc players whining to no end about the impending nerf they most certainly deserved.

[indelible]

Hey folks,

 

Any time that nerfs happen during Class balance, there is a common question we receive “Instead of nerfing <insert Class>, why not buff all of the other Classes up to their performance?” This is a really good question and we want to try to explain to you why we handle balance this way. For starters, if you haven’t read our detailed breakdown of how we balance Classes, please start there. From that thread, the main point you need to understand is that we balance Classes/Disciplines based on specific DPS, HPS, and DTPS targets.

 

Now, those balance targets not only dictate Class/Discipline balance, but they dictate balance across all combat in the entire game. Every Mission, Operation boss, piece of gear, and more is all factored around those balance targets. Let’s say that our hypothetical target for Ranged Burst is 1000 DPS and that Arsenal Mercs are currently performing at 1,200 DPS. This means that they are killing everything in the game 20% faster than we intended them to. Again, that’s every boss and every Mission. The inverse is true of Classes that have lower than desired DPS.

 

If we took every Class and moved it so that it was equal to the highest performing one, now everyone would be way stronger than we intended based on our balance targets. PvE content in general would become too easy, the “time to kill” in PvP would go down quite a bit making for less counter-play. The only way we would be able to “move everyone up to the best Class” is if we simultaneously rebalanced the entire game to be equal to that new target. That kind of thing typically only happens when we increase the level cap, as it is a massive undertaking.

 

TLDR – The entire game’s combat revolves around balance targets. To keep things in-line we have to move Classes up or down to be around that target or it throws things off greatly from their intended balance.

 

-eric

 

It's weird to see you talking up the balance game so much, Eric. It's almost as if you're trying to convince us that 5.0 didn't introduce some of the worst balance breaks the game has seen since it came out of beta. It's almost as if you're TELLING us you're doing a good job, despite what playing the game might prove.

 

The propagandist is strong in you.

[indelible]

As true as that is, when the PvPers say "Mercs are really hard to kill right now" and Bioware responds with "okay we'll make it harder for them to kill bosses", it leaves a bit of a bitter taste.

 

Likewise when PvErs say that they don't use Sorc DPS for being borderline viable, and instead of bumping Sorc DPS up, they see Merc DPS being nerfed.

 

So it's not quite cut and dry as problems being hard to fix, so much as many players feeing Bioware is fixing entirely different problems.

 

Since KotFE, Bioware hasn't been at all focused on PvP ( if they ever were ). SW is a PvE game, with PvP mini-games. Always has been, always will be. That means, when it comes to balance, they'll focus on "making it harder to kill bosses" as a fix for "mercs are too hard to kill".

 

One of the things I'd say however is that bringing merc damage down may be a decent idea. We don't know what they're going to do to madness or lightning to balance the PvP game. If, for example, they buff up madness off-heals then our survivability goes up and a merc vs sorc fight becomes a pitched battle.

[Severith]

It's weird to see you talking up the balance game so much, Eric. It's almost as if you're trying to convince us that 5.0 didn't introduce some of the worst balance breaks the game has seen since it came out of beta. It's almost as if you're TELLING us you're doing a good job, despite what playing the game might prove.

 

The propagandist is strong in you.

 

I've been fairly mean to Eric every now and again, and quite frankly it's been deserved.

 

That being said, having the job title of "Community Manager" is a perpetual spin doctor. He's supposed to give us propaganda. He's supposed to forward the conception that the game is good, and as consumers we need to take that with a grain of salt.

 

If Eric and Keith are giving us BS, then lets call them on that. However, when they're giving us a little more honestly and transparency, like they have been in the last couple of weeks, then lets give them props for that as well.

[MuskyBoy]

And it appears you didn't really pay attention to the reply..... AOE, in the grand scheme of things.... really isn't that big of an issue. Certainly not on most boss fights or 1v1 in pvp. So other than trash pulls, clustering in pvp, or the occasional boss fight with adds, it's not really that important of a difference.

 

Actually as a pressure spec being able to dot spread in the single target rotation is a huge advantage in PVP because it can affect both the player guarding as well as the guarded player without having to lower single target burst.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

This is a good idea, meaning I agree with it.

 

Keep the level cap and gear rating cap in place for 2 years at a time. Gives the development team time to balance everything, fix bugs and introduce new story and gameplay elements into a stable environment. There will be time to see how things are working out, and how they're influencing a new meta. Players won't feel like they're constantly running to just be able to stay in the same place.

 

That would be terrible. New gear being introduced is one of the funnest times in MMOs. Something to work towards, something to aspire to, something to earn. Not everyone hates gearing. I LOVE it.

 

The problem here isn't that it takes too long to get BIS gear. I see people all over the place in full 248. A few months to earn full BIS gear is not a long time. I got full 242 gear just a few days before they released 248 gear and I was so happy that they were releasing 248 gear because at that point I had nothing left to work towards. I've been full 248 geared for about two weeks now, and that's not a very long time considering how recently it was introduced. I'm already hard pressed to find things to do and I'm losing interest already.

 

Now I get not everyone has the same amount of time as everyone else, that's a given, and that's unfortunate, but at the same time, I don't think it;s fair that some people have to sit around waiting for everyone else to catch up. Gearing as of 5.2 is not hard. If you can earn full BIS gear using nothing but basic attack, never stepping foot into an Operation and not ever winning one single WZ ever, that's not hard gearing system.

 

Does it take sometime and some grinding, sure it does. But that's MMOs. Not everyone is going to be geared the same and quite honestly, people who don't do Operations or PVP have no right to complain that it takes a long time to get BIS gear, they shouldn't get BIS gear at all. Could they get BIS gear before 5.0 at all never doing OPs? No. They couldn't even get it doing PVP.

 

You base gearing on how long it takes one character to become fully geared. Not how long it takes one character and 7 alts. It should take someone 7 times as long to fully gear 7 alts as compared to someone who is gearing only 1. There shouldn't be price breaks. It shouldn't get easier each character you gear, your spliting your time 7 ways, of course its going to take much longer. That's simple arithmetic! heh

 

It's like two people starting brand new characters at the same time. One of them can play 4 times a week and the other only 2 times a week. Is it unfair that the guy who can play 4 times a week is leveling faster than the guy who can only play 2 times a week? Should we make leveling faster for the people who dont have as much time and make it so the guy who can play more is done leveling in 3 days because other people dont have as much play time?

 

Those people who are better geared, they earned it. They put that time in. They aren't getting special treatment, they put in the exact amount of time it takes to get it just like anyone else will have to do to get it.

 

Not everyone plays 7 characters. And I'm not gonna sit around twiddling my thumbs paying for a game for 2 years bored off my *** because other people want to have 17 Alts geared before new gear comes out.

 

Everyone who is already fully geared, they earned it, they did the work, they put the time in. They deserve it. The only people who think that it is so hard to gear up in BIS gear now are people who didn't start playing this game until 4.0. Compared to pre 4.0, this is easy as hell. A couple of months to gear up in the best gear in the entire game, isn't a long time. If you want 7 alts in full BIS gear, it should take you 7 times as long.

 

I want cap raises. I want new gear. I love gearing up. For the people who don't, maybe this is the game for you. If BW tells me I have to wait a year now before I can improve my character, I'm not going to pay 12 months of subscription fees to have nothing to do.

 

I think 6 months is fair, if someone can't gear up in 6 months, they are doing something very wrong.

 

The BIS gear issue in PVP is a seperate issue. It's not even about the gear, it's about PVP not being skill vs skill, PVPers don't want eaiser BIS gear, they want gear as a total non factor. Even if you speed gearing up that wouldn't change a thing because there would still always be people who were fully geared. Setting the bolster higher than gear easily takes care of that problem, we know it would work because they did do that between 5.0-5.1.

 

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, my response was only due because I didnt' want BW to think thats how everyone felt because plenty of people don't. Raiders live for gearing. In many respects, that's a large part of what progression raiding is all about. To me, and probably for many people who are fully geared, making new gear introduction with long intervals between [ more than 6 months] we are stuck "in the same place" already.

Edited June 22, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[DarkSaberMaster]

I don't think they were saying you possess skills that you said you don't. They were saying that tech support in ISPs probably don't possess the skill you think they do.

 

'Twas a joke.

 

Thank you. You actually got what I was saying. The people you call at these ISP's have no clue about troubleshooting. They read off a placard that goes "If you have this problem, go here. If not, go to this page." More akin to the Choose Your Own Adventure books that kids read.

[stoopicus]

Since KotFE, Bioware hasn't been at all focused on PvP ( if they ever were ). SW is a PvE game, with PvP mini-games. Always has been, always will be. That means, when it comes to balance, they'll focus on "making it harder to kill bosses" as a fix for "mercs are too hard to kill"

 

The ironic thing is that of all the endgame group activities:

 

Operations

MM FP's/Uprisings

Regs PvP

Ranked PvP

GSF

 

60% of them are PvP.

 

So, while I agree with your focus comment, I disagree with your overall premise.

Edited June 22, 2017 by stoopicus

[indelible]

The ironic thing is that of all the endgame group activities:

 

Operations

MM FP's/Uprisings

Regs PvP

Ranked PvP

GSF

 

60% of them are PvP.

 

So, while I agree with your focus comment, I disagree with your overall premise.

 

The game as a whole is a story-based, PvE focused MMO. PvP content takes less time to develop and has greater longevity for many obvious reasons, so if you weight the content you're going to be able to say there's "more" PvP stuff than PvE stuff. However, if you weight the development time expended on PvE content ( including expansion story content, flashpoints, uprisings, etc ), you'll find that this content enjoys way more resources than PvP does ( or ever has ).

[stoopicus]

The game as a whole is a story-based, PvE focused MMO. PvP content takes less time to develop and has greater longevity for many obvious reasons, so if you weight the content you're going to be able to say there's "more" PvP stuff than PvE stuff. However, if you weight the development time expended on PvE content ( including expansion story content, flashpoints, uprisings, etc ), you'll find that this content enjoys way more resources than PvP does ( or ever has ).

 

From a development cost perspective, yeah - totally agree. Which is what makes it ironic - from a player engagement perspective, it is much more cost effective for them to put the resources into making one warzone, which will be very high value in terms of player time versus development cost, than an expansion like Iokath, which everyone blew through in 45 minutes and never went back to. Despite requiring much more development time and resources for the story expansion.

 

And yet even so, PvP is neglected.

Edited June 22, 2017 by stoopicus

[Eli_Porter]

I wouldn't say PvP takes less time to develop. A proper, interesting new warzone requires a fair bit of design time and testing.

 

You know what happens when you ask devs to spend just a little bit of effort into a new PvP experience? Iokath OWPvP.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[stoopicus]

I wouldn't say PvP takes less time to develop. A proper, interesting new warzone requires a fair bit of design time and testing.

 

You know what happens when you ask devs to spend just a little bit of effort into a new PvP experience? Iokath OWPvP.

 

I guarantee you one warzone takes less person-time than a story mode area with writing, CG cutscenes and voice acting, much less a whole expac.

 

Probably close to an order of magnitude less.

Edited June 22, 2017 by stoopicus

[EzioMessi]

I guarantee you one warzone takes less person-time than a story mode area with writing, CG cutscenes and voice acting, much less a whole expac.

 

Probably close to an order of magnitude less.

 

Even if we assume that war zones take more time to develop than any story or PvE content, it still has magnitudes more longevity.

 

We have what, 7 war zones and 4 arenas, and "give us a new war zone" is one of the LAST complaints you'll hear a PvPer make. Meanwhile for PvE we have a dozen operations, dozens of flashpoints and uprisings, and tons of solo content. And it's never enough. There are so many complaints from solo/story players that they have to put up with a 2.5 month story drought after two full years of story.

 

So in terms of cost vs benefit, PvP is easier to develop for.

[stoopicus]

Even if we assume that war zones take more time to develop than any story or PvE content, it still has magnitudes more longevity.

 

We have what, 7 war zones and 4 arenas, and "give us a new war zone" is one of the LAST complaints you'll hear a PvPer make. Meanwhile for PvE we have a dozen operations, dozens of flashpoints and uprisings, and tons of solo content. And it's never enough. There are so many complaints from solo/story players that they have to put up with a 2.5 month story drought after two full years of story.

 

So in terms of cost vs benefit, PvP is easier to develop for.

 

Yup. Seems like a much higher reward for development time investment. Additionally, we know that there's a large and solid playerbase there as well, not just from empirical evidence from the leaderboards (~25k ranked characters in season 8, and ranked is a small subset of the total PvP population) but from queue times as well. Harbinger pops in under a minute prime time, TEH about the same, slightly less.

 

And yet it is basically ignored for months for improvements.

Edited June 22, 2017 by stoopicus

[Lahandra]

Actually as a pressure spec being able to dot spread in the single target rotation is a huge advantage in PVP because it can affect both the player guarding as well as the guarded player without having to lower single target burst.

 

That's your best argument for AOE being so massively important that it should be balanced around??? So lets say in the case of madness, you're talking about the rare lucky instance that you might catch the two in that incredibly HUGE deathfield we have now, over 3 gcd's?? lol...... Or for that matter, a 2 gcd dart/grenade from a vir sniper?? Again....rare, and doesn't account for THAT much more damage. This is just a ridiculous gripe...... It's inconsequential dps in the long run, even if you're lucky enough to land it..... smh

Edited June 22, 2017 by Lahandra

[mike_carton]

Assault and Battery on the Seers (and a drive-by on other Sorcerers and Sages). Edited June 22, 2017 by mike_carton

[MuskyBoy]

That's your best argument for AOE being so massively important that it should be balanced around??? So lets say in the case of madness, you're talking about the rare lucky instance that you might catch the two in that incredibly HUGE deathfield we have now, over 3 gcd's?? lol...... Or for that matter, a 2 gcd dart/grenade from a vir sniper?? Again....rare, and doesn't account for THAT much more damage. This is just a ridiculous gripe...... It's inconsequential dps in the long run, even if you're lucky enough to land it..... smh

 

Yes 3 GCD's that that are instant and your hardest hitting ability which in itself is AOE.

Now compare that with IO,Incendiary Missile (instant) Serated shot (cast unless proc) fusion missile (cast) explosive dart (instant but delayed by 2.5 secs) but yeah I guess 2 dot spreads are the same right? And that's before you even talk about the resource hog using these abilities are.

[Lahandra]

Yes 3 GCD's that that are instant and your hardest hitting ability which in itself is AOE.

Now compare that with IO,Incendiary Missile (instant) Serated shot (cast unless proc) fusion missile (cast) explosive dart (instant but delayed by 2.5 secs) but yeah I guess 2 dot spreads are the same right? And that's before you even talk about the resource hog using these abilities are.

 

And again.... in the grand scheme of things.....as far as balance is concerned for content..... it really doesn't matter..... smh

[MuskyBoy]

And again.... in the grand scheme of things.....as far as balance is concerned for content..... it really doesn't matter..... smh

Worst counter argument ever. That you know it (Madness) has an advantage in (bestia, council, dashroode,CZ, draxus (lightning), tyth, torque, sparky), I could go on and has better pressure in PVP due to easier dot spread and how hard death field hits (assuming changes they make its sustained level with IO) is not irrelevant. Please show me where IO (and arsenal if is nerfed to lightning levels) are advantaged if this happens? What you break a soft stun with your single target aoe? As I say buff madness but IO need the same aoe and dots spread as madness.

[ivanhedgehog]

Yes 3 GCD's that that are instant and your hardest hitting ability which in itself is AOE.

Now compare that with IO,Incendiary Missile (instant) Serated shot (cast unless proc) fusion missile (cast) explosive dart (instant but delayed by 2.5 secs) but yeah I guess 2 dot spreads are the same right? And that's before you even talk about the resource hog using these abilities are.

 

dot spread is way overrated. most bosses are single target....no one to dot spread to. Who cares about dot spread. It does nothing. Most bosses dont stand next to their adds.

Edited June 23, 2017 by ivanhedgehog