Class changes: Nerf vs. Buff

[ZionHalcyon]

The transparancy isn't the problem. The method itself is.

 

I'm done waiting to be honest. They have proven to be slow, inconsistent, indecisive and most of all incorrect in their way of handling balance that by now I've seen enough to know how this will go.

 

 

The game is just too big to look at it in such a simplified manner. You can't just "balance" DPS/HPS and DTPS and then only look at the other stuff 3 months later. DPS/HPS en DTPS stand in direct symbiosis with DCD's and Utilities.

But that is not a concept that seems to be understood around Biowares office hallways.

 

Whatever, but you're wrong about this. They have a new producer, shared what they are doing to balance, and are taking it in stages. There is nothing about their approach as they described it that does not make sense.

 

On the one hand, I understand that there is a symbiosis, but on the other hand, DPS CAN be isolated, and as you said, because of that symbiosis, if they changed the utilities, then that will give them a skewed perspective if they didn't address the DPS first.

 

They are addressing the DPS because its the easiest place to start and isolate - even a player can do it on a training dummy. Once they have those at the numbers they want, THEN they can tune the utilities in a way that compliments the dps output, and because of that symbiosis you mentioned, this time they can tune the utilities in a manner that fits better.

 

Now, if you don't want to wait around for the finished product, that I can understand. this balance is going to take some time to finally get right. But it has nothing to do with the development team being "incorrect" and has everything to do with you not liking the stated direction. Not telling you to like it when you don't, but at least be honest with yourself about why - you don't want your class nerfed. Everything else is you attempting to surround an emotional decision with an attempt at logic to fool others (and yourself maybe) that you are deciding this rationally.

 

But we really should drop the pretense of that. Because human beings are irrational, emotional beings - myself included. We convince ourselves that we are rational, when really almost every decision we make is based on some emotional pull that we try to justify in the same way of surrounding it with what we think is logical. That's not me judging you - that just science and it applies to all human beings.

 

Honestly, I don't like the nerf to Merc either - I got 5 of them, most of them Ops Geared. If you wanted to take a break, I'd get it - just came back from taking a year off myself, and because I strongly disagreed with the dev team.

 

But just because I don't like it, doesn't mean I don't understand. The Devs for the first time ever stated their vision for the classes and gave us workable numbers. I'll wait to see how it all plays out before I make a final judgment.

[ZionHalcyon]

This is probably a good enough reason not to keep upping the level cap - -rebalance the PvE content maybe, but rebalancing this and increasing level cap seems a whole lot of work for not much gain.... And it tends to annoy people more than it pleases that there is another 5 levels to strive for and a whole new set of gear.

 

You got your gear grind with CXP - and it's taken months of back-peddaling to change it. - Leave it as is, and develop more *content*....... please.

 

Here's the thing - by doing what they are doing, it will allow them to scale the professions more easily when they do add levels.

 

Although I think that they should go to level 100, and stop the story and the levels there - end it on a satisfying note, and they can then fine tune balance and add more stories via flashpoints and daily areas to the middle of the game.

[ivanhedgehog]

I just want to point out that you, who did not help develop the game, are telling the developers, who did make the game, what would and wouldn't require rebalancing the game, even after they explained that it does.

 

That is just ridiculous.

 

The devs can either listen to their customers(at least hear them out) or they can ignore them. They might end up unemployed but that is their problem.

[ivanhedgehog]

appropriate dps nerfs are all good, but I'm fearing BioWare is overlooking the thing that's making Merc OP in PVP more than anything. Responsive Safeguards

 

I know to stop DPSing when I see reflected damage, but 90% of the other people that solo queue don't, and mercs are constantly getting healed to full with it every time.

 

and whos fault is that? You ignore the mechanic and when it does what it is supposed to, you complain? Being bad in pvp is penalized, just like being bad in an op.

[ZionHalcyon]

The devs can either listen to their customers(at least hear them out) or they can ignore them. They might end up unemployed but that is their problem.

 

So, if a car dealer service shop has a customer who insists they replace one of his tires with a steering wheel because he knows better than the mechanic, the mechanic should listen to the customer or else the shop will go out of business?

 

Sorry - pithy sayings are great and all, but as I just illustrated, there are logical limits to what they can apply to.

[TUXs]

and whos fault is that? You ignore the mechanic and when it does what it is supposed to, you complain? Being bad in pvp is penalized, just like being bad in an op.

Right? It's like standing in stupid. Most players have learned very fast not to attack when the shield is up...those that haven't, will.

[ivanhedgehog]

Clearly you didn't read what I posted. I said if you buff madness to IO levels then madness has the advantage over the merc equivalent (sustained ranged dps) if you put arsenal single target dps the same as lightning and marksman (ranged burst) then those 2 have an advantage over arsenal due better AOE. As I said single target is the priority but aoe damage needs to be considered.

 

using aoes would lower their dps. Its a single ops boss, aoes are inefficient against single targets, not to mention they eat energy like nobodies business.

[TUXs]

So, if a car dealer service shop has a customer who insists they replace one of his tires with a steering wheel because he knows better than the mechanic, the mechanic should listen to the customer or else the shop will go out of business?

 

Sorry - pithy sayings are great and all, but as I just illustrated, there are logical limits to what they can apply to.

That's NOTHING like what he was saying...nothing at all. SWTOR is entertainment, like a movie. A better analogy would be if enough viewers drop off, the series will get cancelled (even though the Fast and the Furious movies seem immune to this reality).

[Eli_Porter]

The devs can either listen to their customers(at least hear them out) or they can ignore them. They might end up unemployed but that is their problem.

 

Customers are great at pointing out a problem, but not so great at identifying its cause. Let alone knowing the best solution.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Eli_Porter

[ivanhedgehog]

So, if a car dealer service shop has a customer who insists they replace one of his tires with a steering wheel because he knows better than the mechanic, the mechanic should listen to the customer or else the shop will go out of business?

 

Sorry - pithy sayings are great and all, but as I just illustrated, there are logical limits to what they can apply to.

 

If I bring my car into the dealer for faulty steering and the mechanic decides to ignore me and just replace the spark plugs, I will no longer be doing business with him. If I tell all of my friends, the word will get around that he is an awful dealer. People will take thier business elsewhere. When he no longer makes enough money to pay his bills, he will shut down. That may be hard for you to understand, but that is how the world works.

[casirabit]

Customers are great at pointing out a problem, but not so great at identifying its cause. Let alone knowing the best solution.

 

This. I can call my internet provider with a problem I have but I do not have the experience or knowledge what they need to do. They have the experience and knowledge on what they need to do to fix my problem.

[MuskyBoy]

using aoes would lower their dps. Its a single ops boss, aoes are inefficient against single targets, not to mention they eat energy like nobodies business.

 

Sigh, read the original post, lightning and madness both have AOE in their single target rotations as compared with IO and arsenal (on the assumption that class rebalance has ranged burst (MM, lightning and arsenal) equal and sustained (madness, IO and virulence) equal for all classes). Suppressive fire has significant more AOE then sweeping blasters making marksman superior to arsenal, if AOE damage is so insignificant then don't have it in the game, as I said single target is the priority but if one class does the same dps but also has superior aoe then why take the class with inferior aoe?

Edited June 21, 2017 by MuskyBoy

[ivanhedgehog]

Right? It's like standing in stupid. Most players have learned very fast not to attack when the shield is up...those that haven't, will.

 

Exactly, the mechanic doesnt need to be nerfed, people need to learn to understand it and not shoot during the short time it is up. People lack self restraint.

[ZionHalcyon]

Customers are great at pointing out a problem, but not so great at identifying its cause. Let alone knowing the best solution.

 

This x 1000

[DarkSaberMaster]

This. I can call my internet provider with a problem I have but I do not have the experience or knowledge what they need to do. They have the experience and knowledge on what they need to do to fix my problem.

 

Lol. Ok. Sorry that you actually believe that.

[ZionHalcyon]

If I bring my car into the dealer for faulty steering and the mechanic decides to ignore me and just replace the spark plugs, I will no longer be doing business with him. If I tell all of my friends, the word will get around that he is an awful dealer. People will take thier business elsewhere. When he no longer makes enough money to pay his bills, he will shut down. That may be hard for you to understand, but that is how the world works.

 

Actually a more appropriate analogy is you bring in your car for faulty steering and then insist on him just filling up the power steering fluid to fix it, when the issue is a faulty axle.

 

And in your example, your OWN example, if you bring in your car to the dealer for faulty steering, wouldn't you TRUST YOUR DEALER to tell YOU what the issue is, and FIX it?

 

Because that is not what is going on - what is going on here is you are not even trusting your mechanic to know his expertise, and instead you, who have NO expertise, are telling him how to fix it.

 

I noticed you left that out of your example, conveniently...

[casirabit]

Lol. Ok. Sorry that you actually believe that.

 

I don't have the skills or schooling to fix a technical problem with my internet. My education and skills lie in the legal field and to insist I know something about the techincal issues on an internet problem would be stupid since I have do not have the skills nor the knowledge to fix it. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would know this.

[ZionHalcyon]

I don't have the skills or schooling to fix a technical problem with my internet. My education and skills lie in the legal field and to insist I know something about the techincal issues on an internet problem would be stupid since I have do not have the skills nor the knowledge to fix it. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would know this.

 

They should call it uncommon sense in this day and age. But you are absolutely right.

[ivanhedgehog]

Sigh, read the original post, lightning and madness both have AOE in their single target rotations as compared with IO and arsenal (on the assumption that class rebalance has ranged burst (MM, lightning and arsenal) equal and sustained (madness, IO and virulence) equal for all classes). Suppressive fire has significant more AOE then sweeping blasters making marksman superior to arsenal, if AOE damage is so insignificant then don't have it in the game, as I said single target is the priority but if one class does the same dps but also has superior aoe then why take the class with inferior aoe?

 

This only matters on trash. Most bosses stand there and your aoe hits them 1 time. no dot spread, no nothing else. It takes a much larger bite out of your energy budget. AOE has its place in the game, it is intentionally made inefficient for boss fights. Use sweeping blasters too much and your dps will be sad because you will run out of energy.. Which could be why no one puts sweeping blasters in a rotation. That brings up the question, do they balance on single target or do they balance on trash pulls or pvp? The answer should be obvious.

[ivanhedgehog]

Actually a more appropriate analogy is you bring in your car for faulty steering and then insist on him just filling up the power steering fluid to fix it, when the issue is a faulty axle.

 

And in your example, your OWN example, if you bring in your car to the dealer for faulty steering, wouldn't you TRUST YOUR DEALER to tell YOU what the issue is, and FIX it?

 

Because that is not what is going on - what is going on here is you are not even trusting your mechanic to know his expertise, and instead you, who have NO expertise, are telling him how to fix it.

 

I noticed you left that out of your example, conveniently...

 

You assume that no players have any experience in game design. When I talk to the mechanics, I have 50 years of automotive experience including fleet maintenance to fall back on. So, no, I dont always trust the dealer to know what the issue is.

[MuskyBoy]

This only matters on trash. Most bosses stand there and your aoe hits them 1 time. no dot spread, no nothing else. It takes a much larger bite out of your energy budget. AOE has its place in the game, it is intentionally made inefficient for boss fights. Use sweeping blasters too much and your dps will be sad because you will run out of energy.. Which could be why no one puts sweeping blasters in a rotation. That brings up the question, do they balance on single target or do they balance on trash pulls or pvp? The answer should be obvious.

 

So I guess you single target on Tyth adds? On torque? on Grobthok? CZ? Bestia? see there are plenty of fights where aoe is relevant. Again having aoe in a single target rotation is better then doing something like IO which requires 2 abilities outside the single target rotation to execute.

Edited June 21, 2017 by MuskyBoy

[Quraswren]

Customers are great at pointing out a problem, but not so great at identifying its cause. Let alone knowing the best solution.

 

In cases like this, I'll take the experienced players over the number crunchers any day. when it comes to identifying the cause as well as adjusting it.

[Foambreaker]

Thank you Eric.

 

I would have thought this would be common sense after reading the initial post you linked, but thank you for spelling it out here for those that needed it.

 

Common sense is an optional human gene.

[ZionHalcyon]

You assume that no players have any experience in game design. When I talk to the mechanics, I have 50 years of automotive experience including fleet maintenance to fall back on. So, no, I dont always trust the dealer to know what the issue is.

 

Do you have 50 years of game design?

 

I thought not. You get the analogy - stop deflecting.

[K_osss]

That spells it out for DPS as did the previous post IMO. The question is around survivability. Do you have a target survivability statistic that you balance around or do you compare classes sruviability one to another? It doesn't seem this process is in place right now because the survivability of some classes are drastically higher than other resulting in imbalance.