How does our feedback work

[MenollyWanderer]

I loved Kotfe in every way shape and form. I put almost all my characters through it because it was such a fascinating adventure. Being separated from our companions was so gloriously painful, it made the hope for their return even more poignant. I would spend hours discussing theories with my friends, enjoying every little tidbit that was thrown our way and couldn't wait to see what would happen. I would look forward to the tease at chapters end about who the next companion would be. Then it ended. In Kotet the story got chopped and shredded and glued back together a little bit... off. I love the Arcann part, that he can be with us, that is frankly a highlight for me and the only thing that makes Kotet worth it. I missed Kotfe though, I missed the care given to details, I missed the whole chapters dedicated to companions returning. Companions and story, that is why I play Swtor, they are my draw, they are what have kept me there from the very beginning.

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one)

 

No! We are not out of patience! I would wait a year to get a companion back if it meant a whole chapter with them and not this awful drivel of a wave and a peck and wham your companion is back never to be heard from again because they now enter the oubliette of "you had a chance to kill them thus they are no longer relevant to the story and will never be heard from again"! (Don't even get me started on the obsession with killing all the companions off)

 

Now they are saying that we will never get those chapters with our companion, we will never get that time. The new norm will be five sentences exchanged with your companion if that and then they are effectively shoved to the back into the void. This is sad? No kidding. Think about how sad the rest of us are that we are getting the cheap knockoff companion returns instead of the rich story telling that many of us have always thought Bioware provided in spades, until now.

 

I understand wanting to grease to the squeaky wheels complaining about group content but this "feedback result" completely alienates a whole section of the fan base and is heartbreaking for anyone hoping for a satisfying return of what to us is one of the more important aspects of the game, an aspect that has kept us coming back time and time again despite various hardships. When the new op is beaten, the dust settled and the "group content focus" has completely demolished the "story content", do you think these squeaky wheels will cease their chorus and return so readily?

[BorisKarloffe]

This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

 

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

 

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:

1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
   
2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
   
3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
   
4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.
   

 

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:

1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
   
2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
   
3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
   
4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.
   

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

 

Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming

 

A lengthy post from the devs about the story?! *spits out drink and falls out of chair*....*checks the weather and the mayan calendar to make sure the apocalypse isn't about to occur*

 

Okay....be calm...be calm....

 

While I am sorely tempted to machine gun a list of grievances onto a massive text wall, I have said plenty of critical things elsewhere. I was one of the ones who REALLY disliked the "Kights" arc. Kotet Story Review:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=915575

Kotet Gameplay Review:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=915576

Iokath Review:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=920243

 

If you want to read a more humorous take on the flaws of said xpacs, I suggest:

Satirical Epilogue to KotFE:http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=892161

Satirical Epilogue to KotET: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=918052

 

Rather than rehashing any of those or things others have already pointed out, I have questions.

 

1. Were the 3 Seasons planned all along? I recall an announcement of season 2 midway through the first season's release, as though it had been contingent on the first's success.

2. While I'm sure everyone wants their comps back NAOW, I cringe every time I think of how Iokath went for those of us who wanted Elara back. I know you said you're trying to bring comps back as fast as possible, but does that mean they will all get the "Iokath" treatment?

3. Has the Voice Actor's strike affected the availability/use of certain of the classic companions?

4. What are the odds we will get more than one storyline in any future expac (i.e. like Makeb) or even class missions (like SoR) again?

5. Has Bioware considered doing an expac devoted just to the returning LI's?

6. How important do you think it is to do something new with the Star Wars franchise vs. repeating similar tropes and themes in terms of story design?

7. What is your favorite or least favorite Star Wars story? and why?

8. Did the "Knights of..." story arc cause the studio to establish any "laws" for future development of content? i.e. "we are NEVER doing that again..." or "we are DEFINITELY doing that again at some point..."

9. I seem to recall that the last chapter of two from KotFE was postponed to change something in regards to the story. Are you allowed to say what that was now?

10. Do you generally find yourself satisfied with how much story there is, or do you always wish you had more time for exposition/narration/expression/conversation for characters and plot to progress?

[Icykill_]

Keith and Eric, here is some feed back that I hope you listen to

 

Hey folks,

 

Below you will find the upcoming changes for Corruption and Seer Disciplines coming in 5.3.

 

Sorcerer

Reduced the amount of healing done by Dark Heal by 4.86%

Increased the base Force cost of Resurgence from 40 to 50 and the amount of healing done by its initial heal by 10.59%, but reduced the amount of healing done by its heal-over-time by 14.29%

Reduced the amount of damage absorbed by Static Barrier by 5.3%

 

 

The Sorc changes should only be spec based, not the whole class. You are basically destroying any hope of us ever using our dps Sorc again in pvp, especially Lightning, which you've completely left out of 5.3.

I main a lightning Sorc which is the lowest performing dps class in the game. The only saving grace that still allowed me to play it, was the survivability I had on it.

 

Those changes SHOULD NOT BE MADE TO THE CLASS... if you want to nerf healing spec, then nerf healing... DONT THROW THE OTHER SPECS UNDER THE BUS TOO... I'm sure you can nerf the healing spec only abilities to get the desired response... not the class abilities...

I implore you to please talk to the combat team and get them to change this before you completely ruin the whole class.

 

Everytime you nerf Sorc, you nerf the whole class. Can't you just nerf a Spec? You have already destroyed the class so many times over the years because you nerf the "class" and not the spec.. lightning is now at the bottom of the heap and you want to kick it further 😡😡😡😡

 

But you said you wanted a why and what would happen, so here you go -

When a lightning Sorc enters pvp they will be targeted first and destroyed... period... we will not have any ability to survive anymore.. and we have no dps to act as a deterrent to tunnelling us.. That's it... it's simple..

 

All of the good faith you guys have fostered and built up with me has gone in one fell swoop. If these changes go ahead "I will be unsubscribing"

[Darth_Xyphos]

[*]Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.

 

 

And I don't blame them. The events that took place before and during the Galactic war between The Sith Empire and The Republic were more interesting to me than introducing a third superior empire for no feasible reason.

 

And to be honest it never felt like Vitiate was 'expanded' on it felt like Valkorion was introduced. During KOTFE and KOTET it never felt like I was interacting with the same character even while ignoring the different voice. You can't tell me that his plan to

 

*SPOILERS

 

To take over the character's body was his endgame in all of this? We already knew he was a body snatcher and for all the hype built around figuring out his goal it was a bit anti climactic. The only class story that I thought fit very well with this was the warrior story, where he picked the sith warrior to be the new wrath specifically to raise him as his new vessel. Some of the others felt out of place, heck the smuggler summed it up nicely in one of his lines; "I don't get where you people are getting this 'I'm the chosen one' stuff, I'm just a guy with a ship." I was almost excited when he left in chapter 12 making me think "OOOHHH the plot thickens!" but it turns out to be a ruse? It sounded very underwhelming and considering you had to cut the story by a THIRD I can see why.

 

What was the point of everything he did in the Jedi Knight's story line? Even his excuse in chapter two "I was different here(Zakuul)" they were still supposed to be the same person and his desires he expressed in the Jedi Knight's story line and what we learned of him in Kotfe and Kotet just don't really click together very well imo. That's why it felt like I was dealing with 2 different characters.

 

And I could have ignored all of that if the original class stories were expanded on more before jumping into this. Like sure as a sith warrior you become the emperor's wrath, and as an inquisitor you become a dark council member, but it never felt like I could actually BE in those roles. Sith warrior was supposed to be the class that resembled Darth Vader but I never worked directly with the emperor or went out and hunt/kill traitors like Scourge, and now that we're talking about the warrior what the heck happened to the Emperor's Hand and what was the whole story about the Opticrons on Rishi?!?! "The Wrath must not know! The Ritual must continue!" Or servant one talking about his/her 'true destiny'?

 

For the inquisitor I never felt like a dark council member, instead I felt like their errand boy it would have meant the world if our character went through as much as one freaking council meeting. The same could be said of the consular.

 

I enjoyed KoTFE/KOTET to an extent, I'm just sad that it is what we got in exchange of all the missed opportunities of the Galactic War that was the original plan of the story, there are even some tidbits from data mining where some of the stories were supposed to continue next.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Darth_Xyphos
spelling errors etc.

[Gene_Feng]

It's nice to know I don't need to touch KOTFE/ET story ever again. All I liked about vanilla stories - class stories and companions - is not going to happen.

I'm not interested in Shan family drama, neither I was interested in Valkorion family drama. My characters feel and play like they are Theron and Lana's companions. I wasn't a big fan of Theron and Lana from the start, i have no interest in them and their adventures.

Dorne and Quinn were interchangeable, out of character, Quinn was returned only to let players to humiliate and kill him, those who didn't want that got a big middle finger. Was it worth of 2 years of waiting? Totally wasn't, if you ask me.

The only point of staying subscribed for me now is the promised multiplayer content, I won't give the story a single chance.

New boss is good though - easy in story mode for everyone to kill it, and challenging enough in hard mode to give guilds something to work upon. Make the others happen too!

[adormitul]

Kotet and Kotfe will have gotten an better reception if you brought back our favorite companions. I mean come on most of the force user ones are not back. The smuggler got the worse of all with an total of 2 companion back.

 

2 are you kidding me that ruins the fun for smugglers.

Edited June 23, 2017 by adormitul

[fifteendollers]

Keith and Eric, here is some feed back that I hope you listen to

 

 

 

The Sorc changes should only be spec based, not the whole class. You are basically destroying any hope of us ever using our dps Sorc again in pvp, especially Lightning, which you've completely left out of 5.3.

I main a lightning Sorc which is the lowest performing dps class in the game. The only saving grace that still allowed me to play it, was the survivability I had on it.

 

Those changes SHOULD NOT BE MADE TO THE CLASS... if you want to nerf healing spec, then nerf healing... DONT THROW THE OTHER SPECS UNDER THE BUS TOO... I'm sure you can nerf the healing spec only abilities to get the desired response... not the class abilities...

I implore you to please talk to the combat team and get them to change this before you completely ruin the whole class.

 

Everytime you nerf Sorc, you nerf the whole class. Can't you just nerf a Spec? You have already destroyed the class so many times over the years because you nerf the "class" and not the spec.. lightning is now at the bottom of the heap and you want to kick it further 😡😡😡😡

 

But you said you wanted a why and what would happen, so here you go -

When a lightning Sorc enters pvp they will be targeted first and destroyed... period... we will not have any ability to survive anymore.. and we have no dps to act as a deterrent to tunnelling us.. That's it... it's simple..

 

All of the good faith you guys have fostered and built up with me has gone in one fell swoop. If these changes go ahead "I will be unsubscribing"

 

I'm going to counter this by saying there are other, more appropriate ways to buff Sorc survivability than to worry about their self-heals. Like increasing their ability to kite.

[OneHit]

After reading this post, I feel sad too. I'm only one person with one opinion but I really really wish you guys had stuck with the original plan. We would probably have all our companions back, and back in a meaningful way if you had. If your plans for the ongoing story had been communicated to the players ahead of time, the feedback might have been different. Players were giving feedback but doing it "blind" without all the information. But maybe with the new rules of communication this sort of thing won't happen again *fingers crossed*

 

My other concern is how do you know that the people who post on these forums are actually the "majority of players"? It may be that the majority of players don't post on forums, and had totally different opinions from the ones who do. I'm not saying this IS the case, just "what if" it was. I'd rather you had sent out a survey to all players before making drastic changes, but maybe for reasons I'm not aware of, that wasn't a viable option.

 

I do appreciate how hard you guys are trying, but in the case of KOTFE/KOTET I wish you had turned a deaf ear:(

Charles, please have more confidence in your own creativity and ideas. People love to complain and you know you can't please everyone, unfortunately. Just my 2 cents.

 

 

What's easier to believe? That even though they are the minority people still make it here to post. But none of the people from the vast majority make it here to post? Even though the majority has vastly more people to make it here it just doesn't happen.

 

Ya I call BS

[Milishor]

This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

 

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

 

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:

1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
   
2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
   
3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
   
4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.
   

 

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:

1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
   
2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
   
3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
   
4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.
   

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

 

Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming

 

Me too...I know this is just me, but i got so sad at reading this....i personally loved the change and freshness of Kotfe and Kotet ( i srsly have enough of the jedi vs sith bla bla that is EVERYWHERE in the SW universe,movies/animations included, kotfe and kotet was original and new..which was refreshing) ... now i wonder how these two expansions would have been if not for all the "this is not like the movies! jedi! sith! emp vs rep bla bla" hate ... oh well...

( ugh, i can already feel the backslash from ppl for this lilttle ramble of mine lol )

[Estelindis]

Kotet and Kotfe will have gotten an better reception if you brought back our favorite companions. I mean come on most of the force user ones are not back. The smuggler got the worse of all with an total of 2 companion back.

Um... consulars with their one returned companion say hi...

[adormitul]

The companions where what made the smuggler better then the consular. Its no fun without them no so much without what the consular had because there all very boring. Edited June 23, 2017 by adormitul

[Estelindis]

The companions where what made the smuggler better then the consular. Its no fun without them no so much without what the consular had because there all very boring.

In your opinion. I happen to like the consular companions and am looking forward to their return - admittedly some more than others, but I like some smuggler companions more than others too.

 

Sorry, but it's not reasonable to apply your subjective opinions wholesale as if that makes smuggler worst off for everyone. All sets of companions have some fans and some detractors. Putting aside those subjective views, and working with a standard that's the same for everyone, objectively we can say that consular is worst off because they're the only class to receive just one lone companion back - and even that one via alliance alert. Smuggler is second worst off, because their two companions are also back via alert. (Arguably Inquisitors are just as badly off as smugglers - depends on how one views the dashade companion.)

Edited June 23, 2017 by Estelindis

[Hichitsuki-hime]

hei by the way, there's a 20 pages worth of feedback on the sorc nerf =) we could use some opinion there. thank you.

[MikeCobalt]

It seems I was right, unfortunately. There were parts of the story discarded, that's the Holes. Also some of those were our Companions parts; also not good. Our companions were pushed back probably more then once and now its at Flashover for many players. I played through the Knights story to get past it and at times it was interesting just never more then a means to an end. I'm trying to believe were close to that now. I know I'm getting close to stop looking for the light at the end and it'll take longer then I'm willing to wait. It just no longer seems like the same game I liked instantly some years ago. Some of that Dev. Post I wish I didn't read but its honesty so that's good and I appreciate that.

There are new threads and posts everyday from all kinds of players what they like, not so much, want, favorite scenes and events. I just don't see how a lot of this two years could have came from these forums or what part of this last two years has lead this game to what it is now. Having a character in what I liked to believe was a part of the Star Wars story was good. The Comps to me made this game unique and their personalities. My Subscription has gone on for years however and I haven't had really either for a long time now.

[FixerFortyKay]

@Charles.

 

Can I make some suggestions for the next big story content release? Knowing in advance that you've probably already gotten half your next story content done and I have no idea if your resources can cover

 

The current state of the Galaxy is of three Super Powers. The Alliance, the Republic and the Empire. Each are in ruins, fighting over resources and vying for control. Make the next story about how the Commander/Emperor tries to bring peace, or Order to the Galaxy. With the option to support the Republic, Empire or maintain neutrality as a choice.

 

I don't think a linear list of chapters is the way to go here as at this point, the player is supposed to be a leader who's making decisions on a galactic scale, let's go back to the classic KOTOR and Mass Effect style of letting you pick your missions. Each of these missions feeding into an overall endgame. Having companions turn up in these separate conflicts feels less forced than them turning up as part of a linear progression.

 

Make there be hard choices with no true ideal outcome in each situation and old decisions coming back to haunt you such as keeping Arcann alive despite his many war-crimes will make factions opposed to you. Having bombed Zakuul in the past makes oppressing them easier should you chose to become Emperor. Having third or fourth options instead of binary choices as well with favourable or unfavourable compromises. Tuchunka and Rannoch from ME3 are pretty much my ideals for this.

 

Added bonus thought. Make each conflict class based in some way. Such as Inquisitor Vs. Consular, so we can get some nostalgia for the past or unique choices for that scenario.

 

Allow us to have multiple companion options for missions, or even have two companions on a mission of our choice so we can have some interesting back and forth. I figure this will be extra handy considering the death tolls some DS players have racked up

 

Finally, have the endgame complex like the ME2 suicide mission, with actual failure results. Forces and allies available depending on your previous mission choices. Something that really varies on the type of character and choices you've made.

 

Last of all, a big reset button that allows you to do everything again from scratch.

[EarlWhiteHaven]

This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

 

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

 

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:

1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
   
2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
   
3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
   
4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.
   

 

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:

1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
   
2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
   
3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
   
4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.
   

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

 

Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming

 

I am disappointed about the changes to how you introduce companions. I really liked how each companion had a chapter devoted to them. Especially considering how terribly Elara and Quin were introduced. When I first played the Iokath story line I completely forgot that Quinn was recruited cause he disappeared after the choice was made. This is especially disappointing since most of the still to be returned comps are the romance ones I was really looking forward to seeing reunions with. Plus I am now afraid to continue the story with toons whose romance hasn't returned since we now know how if they don't like something they will end the romance.

 

Also what about an update sometime that focuses on small companions stories. I'd like to do a few quests or have a conversations with Lana that are more personnel. In general the more references in the story to how your relationship is with the companions (Love/hate) the better.

 

One more thing can you make the Iokath story repeatable like the other chapters?

[Jerba]

Great question! The most important thing you can ever put in feedback is why. Saying that you do or don't like something is helpful, telling us why is invaluable. This way when I am passing feedback on to the team I can highlight not only just sentiment (positive or negative) but also give supporting context for that feeling.

 

-eric

That is so true, and I fall into the trap myself too often. It is easy to write "nerf this class" or "buff that class" but this is not helpful to the devs. I often forget to state the reasons for why I don't like something, and sometimes I remember it and edit my posts to add it.

 

Unfortunately, this also opens me up for criticism. Like when I don't like something, players will write "You just don't like it because X and that's not a valid reason".

Whereas when I don't provide a reason, other players have a much harder time trying to argue against my point.

 

I spend a lot of time to formulate my posts correctly and include the reasons for how I feel about the topic. But then seeing some other poster come along and disqualify my post because "my thinking is wrong", and me thinking devs will just ignore my post because other player dislike it, just demotivates me from including reasons in my post.

So while including reasons may be a noble cause, it's not as simple as you may think.

 

Timing is everything, but sometimes it will depend on implementation and whether we can truly do an about face or simply have to go forward and plan/prepare for changes along the way. Galactic Command is a perfect example. It was so integral to everything with Knights of the Eternal Throne (KOTET), that we were not in a position to make the changes everyone requested. We had to go forward or delay KOTET an unknown number of months. That wasn't possible, and as a result, we have made GC changes with every patch since that time.

Thanks Keith! BWA finally admitting that Galactic Command was a failure is very welcomed by me.

While the original intentions are good (you can do whatever you want and still get gear), it turned out to be the worst gearing system ever and caused many veteran players who hadn't quit during 4.0 to quit then.

The main problem was that the balancing was wrong (e.g. NiM operations did not provide the most CXP), that the system was too reliant on RNG, that PvP and PvE gearing was merged, and that the grind was too long. That forced progression players to adjust their whole playstyle around getting gear, while before they could gear during raid nights and play freely the rest of the week.

While I'm sure the PvP and GSF players welcomed the increased participation, you should never force players into a playstyle they don't like. It is terrible when upgrading gear is only possible via PvP, while the goal of GC was supposed to be "play anything you want".

It is impossible to fairly balance PvP gearing with PvE gearing, the playstyles are just too different. You should just remove gear in PvP entirely (and grant static stats, maybe with some bonus depending on Valor rank), and leave gearing for PvE only. GSF is an entirely independent system and it doesn't make sense for it to grant gear toward PvE.

 

In my opinion, there is no more point trying to salvage it at this point. Progression players are in full 248 gear already (like in my group, 6 are BiS, the others are not as active so they have 246 crafted gear), and everyone else lacks behind. The best solution would be to just reduce the cost and time investment required for 248 gear.

With the next gear reset or level increase, you can implement a better gearing system.

 

This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example. [...]

Thanks for the openness, Charles! I had assumed for a while that the story told in KotET was meant to be longer and was shortened to focus on group content, but reading it from the devs certainly helps connect the dots on what's been going on at BWA from 4.0 onwards.

 

While I myself hope to get the remaining companions back, especially Risha, I'm perfectly fine with using the terminal, in fact I already picked up Risha from the terminal.

When I saw Guss Tuno returning and he now uses a lightsaber instead of a blaster (and he DPSes/tanks even though he's a healer in my mind), and he no longer stands around on my player ship, I'd rather Risha stay in her original form and not be updated.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Jerba

[JennyFlynn]

This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

 

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

 

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:

1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
   
2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
   
3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
   
4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.
   

 

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:

1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
   
2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
   
3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
   
4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.
   

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

 

Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming

 

Thank you for this Charles. I will admit in the past when I've heard you say you were sad about how you've had to rearrange things in terms of returning companions, I've rolled my eyes at it. Now though with the explanation of how and why I find myself far more sympathetic and understanding so I appreciate you making this post.

 

I'm guessing that finding feedback to story before it goes live is a little trickier than having people test an Operation and then tweak it. I do have to say I am one of those people who didn't fully enjoy the premise of FE/ET... initially it was alright "ooh what's all this, wow I'm stuck in carbonite?" but what gutted me most was the loss of my old companions and suddenly feeling rather detached from 'who I was'. From my class and faction, and all those people my character had 'grown up with'. -- Do you have any ambition to go back to a model where at least faction wise we receive different stories like we did on Makeb? Also still wanting to know the following;

 

For Charles; Will we soon hear more about returning companions (and/or LIs), any who may be involved in the 'Crisis on Umbara' update coming in August? I'd love even the tiniest tease or a "Yes, two more will return in August", or whichever is appropriate along those lines. -- And thank you for taking note in the "Male Force User Companion" thread, really an unexpected and welcome surprise!

 

For Keith; As a player my main focus lies with story content, personally. Can you say whether the 'one story fits all' is now officially the way this game moves forward, story wise, or was that more for the KOTFE/KOTET expansion itself? And will we get another actual expansion (as in brand new story away from -) in the future or will we from now on continue to receive quarterly(?) updates/continuations to existing material?

[Khaleijo]

First I have to say the flow of feedback and information since Keith took over is just awesome. Keep it up

 

Though i wonder, as some others also asked in this thread, why nor use surveys for direct feedback. To be answered at login for example, short, with up to three questions.

Not for big/difficult things, but a lot of the stuff asked on twitter (neither I nor many of players around me use FB or twitter) could easily be presented to the whole playerbase with the difference, that it would reach and represent all players playing the game.

As an example you certainly know the raw data what the players do with their time ingame, but it is much harder to tell, why they are doing what they are doing exactly.

Even if someone is doing a lot of H2 quests, that doesn't mean it's his favourite sort of content he wants to see more of. It is just what he spends most of his time with, for whatever reason, credits, crates, achievements, CXP grind.

Asking players to rank their two or three most favourite aspects of the game could help to put the raw data into more context.

With the overkill being to present those results afterwards, so that maybe the silent/vocal majority/minority arguments finally end, hard facts being there, and we can concentrate on making the game better for all players instead of only seeing one's own little niche.

 

 

Concerning the story feedback, it is difficult because naturally what someone likes or not is highly individual. But to me a good story has to be consistent foremost. Not too many plotlines at the same time and not introducing them without ever solving. Not to contradict stuff told earlier (even only looking at KOTFE/KOTET there are things that just don't fit, though after what Charles wrote that may be the result of reducing the story)

 

For me the story of 4.0 and 5.0 was mixed, there were some really great ideas, but those were mostly drowned by too many incidents, that just didn't make much sense to me.

As an example the dream sequence. I really liked it, but the execution just left me sitting there thinking, now is this intended, an oversight or a bug (played it a few days after release)?

I first played with the agent and dear Valkorion tells me how crowded it is in my head , when it is my inquisitor who has a bunch of force ghosts bound and the agent even made sure that no one ever should get into his head again during class story the only one maybe being there is Watcher X?

So the chapter more or less started with a huge question mark over my head and it made me more and more sceptical/negative towards the plotline the more of those little hickups I met.

 

Another thing just a short time later: While i understand the need for the whole sun reactor incident, to me it doesn't make sense that my character is able to repair something, the whole bunch of fleeing engineers and scients couldn't. Before when similiar tasks were given via quests to our characters there always was someone telling us how to do things, plant bomb there, destroy this, put that spike in and so on.

This time, my character has a karbonite poisoning after being 5 years out of the loop and in need to be supported by Lana to just move, having neither an idea where he is nor about Zakuulan technology at all. But he can easily repair the equivalent of a nuclear reactor? Especially he is doing it just because a guy he knows for like five minutes whines at him (Even if my Jedi is about saving people, he is not keen on commiting suicide just because.

Especially if all other "experts" of this technology run for their lives).

It would have made much more sense, if not Koth had been the one to cry for help, but one guy near the reactor with then talking us through the repair and maybe Koth arguing for helping instead of running/saving myself. Not much difference in the amount of content in the chapter or the greater details, but a huge differrence when it comes to logic of events and immersion.

 

Examples like this happen along the whole way of KOTFE and just killed it for me. KOTET wasn't as bad but at some point I also just didn't bother anymore to care enough about the story and just played on to get through. So the finer details that may have been there also could just have escaped my notice.

 

Though a huge plus was, KOTET felt much more like really playing my character again instead of just watching things from the side line.

 

After what Charles wrote, I can't tell if my gripe with the other (bigger) plot or logic holes are there, because of the cutting of the story, or if there would be things left I would feel not being thought through or forgotten, when having the full story.

 

For the future:

I don't know if it would have been possible with the programming side of a chained quest, but through the whole story I am constantly told I am THE leader, though i can't decide anything concerning tactic or plans.

Especially the Jorgan/Kaliyo or Torian /Vette chapters could easily have changed place in the chronology in my opinion. Like giving the player the option to decide which one to do first.

Lana telling about plunder stuff, Theron suggesting *I have found this guy on Zakuul* and the player decides, *Lana/Theron yours first then the other*. Tadaa, THE leader gets to decide something.

 

 

On a side note, why giving the player all these new companions, especially with so many that do not appear in the story again (or was this cut out too?). Most had nothing special about them except maybe their species.

I now have a horde of companions cause most of the time a can't say 'no i don't want you'. Though I have almost no emotional connection to them at all. They don't talk to my character nor react to what it does, nor are there conversations to give them personality. They just clutter the crafting/allies window.

 

The old companions were liked because we had a history with them, they joined us on many missions, gave their opinion about things.

Being forced to use specific companions during all KOT... chapters was of course due to the storyline, but on the other hand except of a handful occasions we never were that restricted before. Most of the time we could take with us who we wanted.

A little more freedom there could have worked wonders, even if it's only the decision between Lana or Theron or any other cast of two fitting into the chapter. And it is another decision we as players can make without making the story too complicated by different end results. It even invites to replay, as things may be a little different with the other guy/girl having a different opinion.

 

I understand that real class stories like vanilla are probably way too much work, but I hope that at least different faction stories like Makeb make a comeback. I loved how the two quest chains showed the two sides of the medal, only giving the whole picture of what is happening and why, if you played both.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Khaleijo

[menofhorror]

Here would be my suggestion: You can still have companion-focused plots without an overarching big bad.

 

We have to face the facts. No matter how much you try to do an "epic" storyline, it will always be below the vanilla class stories because of the smaller budget now. So my suggestion would be: Don't try it. Don't try to make an "epic, super, uber, duper" plot and instead have smaller and shorter focused storylines on companions. You can still have chapter companion-centric story updates without wasting time on an overarching plot. The way it's been done in vanilla with your first companion and sort of like Mass Effect-like loyalty missions.

 

If you handle popular companions like Kira the way you handled Dorne and Malavai then I can guarantee you that people won't be happy at all. Nobody will be happy because the way Dorne and Quinn came back was very lackluster. They didn't receive enough attention on the Iokath update, you still only had Lana and Theron as active companions when it should be Quinn and Elara that should have gotten the attention (more dialogue options, more romance lines)

[JattaGin]

(...)

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

 

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:

1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
   
2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
   
3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
   
4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.
   

 

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:

1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
   
2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
   
3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
   
4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.
   

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

(...)

 

Sounds like your original plan would have been to my liking 100%. I am sad as well that your plan didn't work out. But thanks a lot for this interesting insight!

 

(I liked the concept of monthly chapters a lot, by the way.)

[ZionHalcyon]

Why is this yet another example in this single thread alone of someone stating that someone else should skim the forums to get evidence they are quite capable of getting themselves?

 

If you are going to bother making such a statement then get the evidence otherwise you are just talking nonsense.

 

I did get some evidence and posted it - notably BEFORE you made this comment. I posted links from the first 5 pages alone (about 6) with different people and their complaints about various aspects of the story if not the story as a whole.

 

The other guy didn't, and you haven't provided any.

 

So frankly, you are the guys talking nonsense, making strawman attacks, and failing miserably to represent what you guys say as truth, instead treating it as truth just because you said it, which by the way, no one made you the authority. And before you try the Pee Wee Herman "I know you are but what am I" retort, keep in mind, I provided some proof of my claims - which is what separates me from the type of argument you guys are making; I am not representing myself as the authority or even spokesperson. I provided links so that any person willing to actually investigate and not just talk out their rear can see different people from my self with similar complaints about the KOTFE story, and that it is still fresh enough that there are 6 threads in the first 5 pages as of last night, whereas there was only 1 thread giving kudos in the first 5 pages to an aspect of the story.

 

If you and others have to engage in word play and bad arguments to try to win a debate on this topic, all this means is deep down, you know you are wrong. I provided some proof. As of yet, the other side only talks of proof they won't share. Even a grade schooler could tell who is telling the truth in this case.

 

*Edit* - I take that back - the "proof" was 3 posts made in rapid succession at the end of December, that if you look through them, also had its share of detractors - about 50-50. The later threads I posted have for of a 70-30 slant against in total by rough estimates.

 

Still waiting for the 50 threads mentioned in support - I see 3 so far.

Edited June 23, 2017 by ZionHalcyon

[Lionflash]

Pee Wee Herman

 

The forums represent a small percentage of the overall player-base, according to the devs. No one can know how everybody thinks, how does it serve us? Based off charles' post it seems like the games' story in constantly shifting writers, ideas & directions. No expansion has been the same as any before it, it doesn't matter if you liked kot__ or not, nothing like it will ever probably be made again.

[ZionHalcyon]

The forums represent a small percentage of the overall player-base, according to the devs. No one can know how everybody thinks, how does it serve us? Based off charles' post it seems like the games' story in constantly shifting writers, ideas & directions. No expansion has been the same as any before it, it doesn't matter if you liked kot__ or not, nothing like it will ever probably be made again.

 

A little history on me.

 

I was a former SWG player (for as much as people like to complain about the toxic community here, this place is care bear land compared to SWG, which was the most toxic MMO community in MMO history).

 

I served as a Senator for a stretch (think Influencer or player advocate with a direct line to the developers) for the Munitions profession at a time when Munitions was nerfed heavily, first by the Combat Upgrade, then again by the New Game Enhancements (CU and NGE). Those munitions players were bitter because at the time I served, Munitions had been ignored for 5 years and the developers had outright said they would NOT be making any more crafting changes back early on.

 

I pushed a proposal as a Senator that took into account the developers resources and time, and my knowledge of the game that actually got some positive feedback. I started selling that proposal (without breaking NDA or disclosing what the developers said) to a Munitions community that was so defeated and toxic that they outright said "why bother? The devs will never pay attention to us again."

 

So, I sold the proposal to the larger community and showed how having that proposal for Munitions would make their lives better in game - and it was a HIT. I never heard much more from the developers, my run as Senator ended, and I continued to push that proposal, HARD.

 

9 months later, that proposal was in the game, almost as I laid it out, and fresh blood came into the Munitions profession and it was revived - and the naysayers disappeared. And the game was a TON better for it.

 

My point?

 

I'm not one to give up just because some players say "the devs will never fix it so why bother?" I'm a stubborn ***, and if I think there's an idea that will make the game better, I'll keep pushing it no matter the headwind.

 

Because sometimes, all you need to get something implemented is to find the right angle to sell it to the dev team, and present it in a way that takes note of what challenges they may face in doing it, and proposing solutions to that in the same proposal.

 

Naysayers never bothered me one bit - those who can do, those who can't try to tell those who can they can't do it.

[TUXs]

To the people liking the story:

 

It's all good if you like it but that also shows that you aren't bothered by continuity errors and plotholes (the entire Vitiate/Valkorion thing makes no sense to this day)

I wonder how much of that is because it was so rushed though? If Charles actually had to cut 2/3 of his story, it seems like much more could have been done to bring the story better closure. I obviously can't speak for Charles, but I have to assume that he's not entirely pleased with the story as it is either. I actually feel sorry for him, as a writer, having your work judged based on a 1/3 completed story isn't exactly fair to him.