How does our feedback work

[Damask_Rose]

See I want to reject the idea of even going to recruit a terrorist. Which is why I don't want them to be reintroduced via chapters at all. Alerts are skippable, chapters not so much so.

 

I would have no issue with that if the alerts were fully voiced and animated. I would be very unhappy if romance companions were returned 'KotOR" style. I don't feel like my character is participating in those alerts, just a cardboard cutout. But then again, they aren't much worse than Iokath.

[Deewe]

So as you can all see from reading this thread, opinions tend to vary, which makes assessing story feedback very difficult

 

Story is a personal and emotional experience by design, so feelings about it run high and can be polarizing. It is impossible to change an experience like that retroactively through arguments or debates, so I would urge everyone to be respectful, share your thoughts, and not make it about being "right" or "wrong".

 

As a point of clarification, when I mentioned that we condensed the story based on feedback, it was not that we felt the overall story of KOTFE/monthly chapters were received poorly at large (quite the opposite, really) it was that the pacing of the story was widely seen as too slow/drawn out. We took that feedback, assessed our plans, ultimately agreed, and made a change.

 

One last note about numbers: it's commonly asked how we balance feedback against data and metrics, so this is a great place to use as an example. Numerically speaking, KOTFE and KOTET were our most successful expansions by a very significant margin. We didn't change anything in the story based on numbers (the numbers would've said to keep doing exactly what we were doing), we changed them based on the passionate feedback we received from y'all.

 

So keep it up! But, y'know, be cool to each other in the process

Hi Charles,

 

I indeed remember the positive feedback on the story especially for the last X-pack. Although to be totally honest the story wasn't that great.

 

On scale of 1 (poor) 10 (best) I personally scale both Xpack at 6-7 and for reference Timothy Zahn work at 11.

 

Games like Risen, The Witcher, have better laid out scenarios and dialog.

To be fair they don't have the constraint to do a one fits classes all story.

 

Pretty sure you are fully aware you shoot yourselves in the foot doing so.

 

I don't know if it's the marketing department, specific execs that guided but you guys could have done much better.

 

I personally think you misinterpreted the pacing issue.

The true problem was delivering the content by chapter, which disconnected the players from the plot between each one. Like reading a book over a couple of months.

Then Valkorion and his family, Revan, the betrayals, were getting old, we needed new characters and context.

Also one of the biggest issue was being obliged to grind through masses of the same mobs to progress through the story.

 

Finally players wanted their companions faster but not with rushed out story.

 

(edit) My guild and friend list numbers don't really fit the pattern you are seeing in your data.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Deewe

[Sargrith]

I would have no issue with that if the alerts were fully voiced and animated. I would be very unhappy if romance companions were returned 'KotOR" style. I don't feel like my character is participating in those alerts, just a cardboard cutout. But then again, they aren't much worse than Iokath.

 

Agreed, Iokath to me was the worst yet.

[Andryah]

Tux, the main reason people left is there was no group content, which had nothing to do with the story. It had to do with no group content. It was all story, nothing for groups to do. That is why my friend left. She left as there was nothing for her to do with her boyfriend. she enjoyed the story but she didn't want to play by herself.

 

^^ I agree. AND... the incomplete state of GC when it was released in 5.0

 

Those upset about the drought of group content and GC would rail on the story because that was an easy target for them to rail on since it was a main focus of the expansion. People often are not completely honest about why they are upset and will simply lash out at the easiest thing to target. They want their pound of flesh, and they don't care who or what they have to attack to feel like they gain it.

[DarthSpuds]

I wonder how much of that is because it was so rushed though? If Charles actually had to cut 2/3 of his story, it seems like much more could have been done to bring the story better closure. I obviously can't speak for Charles, but I have to assume that he's not entirely pleased with the story as it is either. I actually feel sorry for him, as a writer, having your work judged based on a 1/3 completed story isn't exactly fair to him.

 

But the bottom line is this: Charles only had to cut 2/3rds of the Story because the story in KotFE really wasn't that good, and didn't feel like Star Wars and more players were unhappy with it than were happy with it. That's harsh, but that is how it is. Had the first half of KotFE been half as good as the Class Stories and felt like Star Wars Charles would have had all the time he needed.

 

The biggest problem with KotFE/ET was there was too many dialogue scenes where the Player felt like a passenger in someone else's story. The game went from "Welcome To Star Wars - Your Decisions Will Shape The Galaxy" to "Welcome To This Month's Episode Of Keeping Up With The Valkorians - Sit Down & Do As Little As Possible As The Story Unfolds Before You Regardless Of Your Actions".

 

The best closure that could have come to KotFE/ET was when we encountered that first probe with Darth Marr we should have turned that ship around 180 degrees and not looked back.

 

And having to cut some of the content does not excuse some of the glaring plot holes.

Why did we spend all that boring time in the Odessan Wilderness gathering parts for a Weapon that was NEVER USED?

 

Then when we finally got to the Arcann fight - for which we had been bored to tears in the Oddessan Wilderness making a weapon - did we suddenly forget all about that Weapon and use a Magic Shield instead?

 

Having to condense to story doesn't explain that plot hole.

 

Even allowing for the fact that parts of the story were chopped to condense it down to 2 seasons instead of three it is apparent the story was not particularly coherent, or well paced. And those problems are, unfortunately, the hallmarks of a mediocre story writer. Which given Charles wrote the very worst, most one dimensional (by a mile) Class Story - Trooper - really should not have come as a shock.

 

Now, I don't know if Charles is also responsible for the direction the intra-story combat took - but that was a huge part of the problem as well. Combat is KotFE/ET is bad copy and paste after bad copy and paste after bad copy and paste.

 

Why give some of the classes Stealth when EVERYTHING sees through it?

Why give us CC abilities when everything of note is immune to it?

Why then give "bosses" spamable CC on top of spammable CC?

 

Who is responsible for - for example - the final boss fight on the Voss Star Fortress in Veteran Mode?

Who designed that combat?

It is everything that is wrong with KotFE/ET combat writ large - times ten.

 

Making combat an interminable grind of fighting through spammable CC after spammable CC is NOT exciting, or even good, combat. Neither is it a proxy for challenging combat.

 

There was so much wrong with KotFE/ET that is hard to now where to begin, and what little good there was, what little they got right is washed away under a deluge of rubbish, and missed opportunities.

 

All The Best

[JattaGin]

One last note about numbers: it's commonly asked how we balance feedback against data and metrics, so this is a great place to use as an example. Numerically speaking, KOTFE and KOTET were our most successful expansions by a very significant margin. We didn't change anything in the story based on numbers (the numbers would've said to keep doing exactly what we were doing), we changed them based on the passionate feedback we received from y'all.

 

Ah, I wished you would have listened to the numbers in that case and not to the vocal minority.

 

I vividly remember all the doom and gloom here on the board about the expansions and that it didn't match my experience in-game.

 

I sincerely hope that shifting towards group content as the new way-to-go works out for you. But I am sceptical. I personally believe that the big majority of players couldn't care less for OPs, NiM, PvP and whatnot. That KotFE/KotET, your story-only-expansions were the most successful does actually say something about your player base.

 

I don't know how many players have played the new OPs boss (yet). None of the players I know in-game have. And none of them cares. Of course, that doesn't mean anything except what kind of friends I have in-game. I tried getting a group for it in April. I found one other person who was interested. We thought it might be a bit tough with just the two of us.

 

That said, it feels great to read so many yellow posts here. Charles' insights are very interesting (to me). Thanks!

[ZionHalcyon]

So as you can all see from reading this thread, opinions tend to vary, which makes assessing story feedback very difficult

 

Story is a personal and emotional experience by design, so feelings about it run high and can be polarizing. It is impossible to change an experience like that retroactively through arguments or debates, so I would urge everyone to be respectful, share your thoughts, and not make it about being "right" or "wrong".

 

As a point of clarification, when I mentioned that we condensed the story based on feedback, it was not that we felt the overall story of KOTFE/monthly chapters were received poorly at large (quite the opposite, really) it was that the pacing of the story was widely seen as too slow/drawn out. We took that feedback, assessed our plans, ultimately agreed, and made a change.

 

One last note about numbers: it's commonly asked how we balance feedback against data and metrics, so this is a great place to use as an example. Numerically speaking, KOTFE and KOTET were our most successful expansions by a very significant margin. We didn't change anything in the story based on numbers (the numbers would've said to keep doing exactly what we were doing), we changed them based on the passionate feedback we received from y'all.

 

So keep it up! But, y'know, be cool to each other in the process

 

If I may?

 

I want to be clear that I was NOT saying people were "right" or "wrong" for liking a story - to each their own.

 

My point was the ratio of "I liked it" to "I disliked it!"

 

Also, it needs to be said that I believe your metrics when you say KotFE and KotET were very successful - because minus the story, the quality of life improvements delivered in those expansions rank as the best the game has ever received, and everything other than the story was an out of the park home run.

 

So given that, it can explain those numbers - but likewise due to passionate feedback as you admitted, there were things wrong with the story.

 

You still have a hard time explaining rationally how Vitiate could be Valkorion, as they have different personalities, still didn't capture the Star Wars feel in KotFE, and while I understand why you tried the monthly episodic release, it didn't work based on your own words. You talk about story beats, yet none of those from the old story were incorporated into KotFE - just some cursory lip service at best. The story just feels like its in a rush to run away from the pre-KotFE game, which many, many people loved and wanted more.

 

So, going forward, I really have just 2 questions:

 

1) Is the story going to continue to double down on the KotFE story, or are we finally going to transition back to the Sith Empire vs the Republic and make that the focus of the game again?

2) Going forward in the story now, especially given the feedback given, will your story team make more of an effort to properly incorporate elements from each class's story, and with the context and reverence those story beats deserve, or does the story team consider KotFE, for lack of a better term, a "clean break" from the old game, and we should not expect any future stories to reflect what our character did or achieved in the past (including story with companions)?

[Andryah]

(edit) My guild and friend list numbers don't really fit the pattern you are seeing in your data.

 

Fair point from your perspective, because it is real for you.

 

But the studio gathers much larger and broader numbers of data points in making assessments... so there is simply no reasonable grounds to make your anecdotal data more important then the wider data available to a studio (any studio).

 

Not commenting specific to your post... but this very much goes back to what Charles stated about story being a very personal and passionate part of content for players that actually like story (not all players do like story.. and they will rail on it just because it is story and not a new OP or WZ). And not all players like the way a story goes, some even want to have the ability to rewrite it to their personal narrative, which simply does not work for MMOs.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Andryah

[Andryah]

If I may?

 

I want to be clear that I was NOT saying people were "right" or "wrong" for liking a story - to each their own.

 

My point was the ratio of "I liked it" to "I disliked it!"

Can we please let this line of discussion go.

 

NONE of US has the data to draw any specific and accurate conclusions and comparisions on any ratio of like/dislike/indifferent. It is not productive, it is divisive, and is causing unneeded noise in the discussion.

 

As I stated earlier... some liked it, some did not, some did not care one way or the other, and every possible variation between those three observation points. It takes all kinds to make a village, and that is true in MMOs as it in real life.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Andryah

[menofhorror]

The biggest problem with KotFE/ET was there was too many dialogue scenes where the Player felt like a passenger in someone else's story. The game went from "Welcome To Star Wars - Your Decisions Will Shape The Galaxy" to "Welcome To This Month's Episode Of Keeping Up With The Valkorians - Sit Down & Do As Little As Possible As The Story Unfolds Before You Regardless Of Your Actions".

 

All The Best

 

 

This is a very important point and something I disliked about the story.

[ZionHalcyon]

Ah, I wished you would have listened to the numbers in that case and not to the vocal minority.

 

I vividly remember all the doom and gloom here on the board about the expansions and that it didn't match my experience in-game.

 

I sincerely hope that shifting towards group content as the new way-to-go works out for you. But I am sceptical. I personally believe that the big majority of players couldn't care less for OPs, NiM, PvP and whatnot. That KotFE/KotET, your story-only-expansions were the most successful does actually say something about your player base.

 

I don't know how many players have played the new OPs boss (yet). None of the players I know in-game have. And none of them cares. Of course, that doesn't mean anything except what kind of friends I have in-game. I tried getting a group for it in April. I found one other person who was interested. We thought it might be a bit tough with just the two of us.

 

That said, it feels great to read so many yellow posts here. Charles' insights are very interesting (to me). Thanks!

 

The fact that you mention you vividly remember the "doom and gloom" actually speaks in favor towards those who hated the story.

 

The thing you have to keep in mind with KotFE is this - if you remove the story, KotFE and KotET were 2 of the best expansions BioWare put out ever, PERIOD. Shadow of Revan may come a close 3rd.

 

However, in terms of story, Shadow of Revan found and struck the right balance between a larger, shared story, while infusing class flourishes into the story, and from a story standpoint was handled in a far superior manner with regards to consistency of what came before, respect for the material, and it just flat felt like Star Wars. In that vein, the story itself of KotFE and KotET just felt WRONG to anyone emotionally invested in the story that came before.

 

I don't even think the core story of KotFE would have needed all that much modification - there are some beats there that could have worked. But making Vitiate Valkorion was a mistake, changing their personalities was a mistake, monotonous fighting against Skytroopers over and over was a mistake, shoe-horning everyone into being "the Outlander" was a mistake, and not tying in more of the Republic vs Sith conflict was a mistake, even if both sides weren't in a place to do all out war. Nothing made sense given what happened before - it wasn't true to its own earlier material.

 

That is what people who hated the story have such a problem with - if better care had been taken to respect what came before, and the game didn't play like it was eager for everyone to just forget about the previous stories (that they liked or even loved) and pretend KotFE was the "real" start of the game, I don't think you would have seen the backlash.

[Andryah]

This is a very important point and something I disliked about the story.

 

I just want to point out that when you read a book.. same exact result... you are captive to the story and the conversations between plot characters.. though you can skip something that you find boring or not interesting (just like you can with SWTOR stories). When you see a movie.. same thing.

 

If you want control over a story.. you have to write it yourself. At least with the story arcs in SWTOR.. you can often be more then just an observer, and make choices that can and do alter the story narrative to some degree (but not to the degree as if you were writing it yourself, for yourself.

 

not picking on you, or anyone.. but some players have unrealistic expectations with respect to story and their control over it.

[ZionHalcyon]

I just want to point out that when you read a book.. same exact result... you are captive to the story and the conversations between plot characters.. though you can skip something that you find boring or not interesting (just like you can with SWTOR stories). When you see a movie.. same thing.

 

If you want control over a story.. you have to write it yourself. At least with the story arcs in SWTOR.. you can often be more then just an observer, and make choices that can and do alter the story narrative to some degree (but not to the degree as if you were writing it yourself, for yourself.

 

not picking on you, or anyone.. but some players have unrealistic expectations with respect to story and their control over it.

 

Books that aren't true to themselves or the premise that they set up in the first half of the book don't tend to sell well.

[menofhorror]

I just want to point out that when you read a book.. same exact result... you are captive to the story and the conversations between plot characters.. though you can skip something that you find boring or not interesting (just like you can with SWTOR stories). When you see a movie.. same thing.

 

If you want control over a story.. you have to write it yourself. At least with the story arcs in SWTOR.. you can often be more then just an observer, and make choices that can and do alter the story narrative to some degree (but not to the degree as if you were writing it yourself, for yourself.

 

not picking on you, or anyone.. but some players have unrealistic expectations with respect to story and their control over it.

 

This is not a movie. This also isn't a book. It's a game and the vanilla game featured your character as the main protagonist. But that changed with KOTFE. You can't treat a game like a movie.

[Andryah]

This is not a movie. This also isn't a book. It's a game and the vanilla game featured your character as the main protagonist. But that changed with KOTFE. You can't treat a game like a movie.

 

I did not say it was. I was illustrating the nature of story telling in different mediums, where the story reader/viewer is captive to the story teller. Which is not a defense of the studio (which I think is why you are reacting), but rather the nature of story telling between humans.

 

They are ALL story telling, just different mediums. You clearly missed the point, or are just not open to broader thinking.

 

IF.. you want complete control over a story and how it progresses, you will not find it in an MMO.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Andryah

[Transcendent]

making Vitiate Valkorion was a mistake

 

I still hope there is a twist somewhere down the line that Valkorian wasn't telling the whole truth and that Vitiate was actually his brother.... or something.

[YoshiRaphElan]

This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

 

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

 

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:

1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
   
2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
   
3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
   
4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.
   

 

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:

1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
   
2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
   
3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
   
4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.
   

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

 

Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming

 

 

Honestly, this is one time I wish you guys wouldn't have listened to the players. I loved KOTFE and the monthly chapters and was looking forward to more of that with KOTET. I was really disappointed with how rushed the 9 chapers of KOTET was.

 

Valkorion's end in KOTET always felt rushed to me and I absolutely think it would've been better to have a third "Knights of" expansion rather than rush it the way they did. So instead of Chapter IX of KOTET being about defeating Valkorion, it could've been another "rest" chapter, like Chapter IX of KOTFE. Vaylin's dead, there's a void in leadership on Zakuul, and now the Outlander's in a position to take that over. Chapters X through XVI of KOTET would've been about taking the Throne, probably. Then the third expansion would've focused on taking out Valkorion for good (probably with a lot of Iokath related stuff like we're seeing now). Plus, we would've seen way more companions return (Scourge and Kira would've probably returned to help stop Valkorion).

 

Because this happened, we only got two chapters with Redeemed Arcann (assuming we spared him). We barely got any time in KOTET with our romanced companions. Valkorion's death, again, felt rushed. Iokath's introduction felt oddly separate from the rest of KOTET's storyline. So many things were brushed over to get to the end of the story. Honestly, this frustrates me way more than anything that happened during KOTFE and KOTET. I loved the monthly chapter setup, so hearing we would've gotten a whole 'nother year of it? Man, that burns me.

 

And I'm not one to complain, but just going by the post-KOTET Iokath story, it feels far inferior to the storytelling we were getting in the two expansions, because you had to change things for the players' benefit. Now we've got so many companions still missing and we've got no idea where the story is going from here. And I'm just not feeling this traitor storyline. It feels unearned. All in all, I feel like everything that's been fumbled since then has been because you listened to player input in this case.

 

To be clear: I don't blame you, the devs. It's your job to listen to players. I blame the players who couldn't wait things out and wanted more of the same. They weren't willing to go with this new direction and see where it went. I, for one, am deeply disappointed we'll never see where the original story would've gone.

[KIAskill]

Wellll...I was just going to sit back and read all the discourse, but both Eric and Charles committed me to posting tonight about feedback, so with it getting late here in Texas, I figured OK, stop reading and start typing.

 

Since Eric already explained where we get feedback and essentially how we use it, let me provide some perspective about what I look for and what's important to me.

 

• Specific ideas about gameplay improvements

• Ideas on how we can enhance existing game features

• Conversations about Gearing, Class Balance

• Details about likes and dislikes about an area or type of content

• How we can improve communication and provide better insight

• Kudos for the team when we do something right

• Constructive criticism when we don't do things right. Note I tend to read everything, while disregarding rants or dumping on the dev team as I don't find it helpful

• Virtually all of the comments in our discussion threads

 

You get the idea...truth be told, I don't have time to read everything, but I also get messages from a variety of people using social media, email, LinkedIn, forums, and PMs. With the exception of PMs I try to to personally respond back to every one of them in a timely matter (sometimes right away). PMs - honestly, I have so many I can't possibly answer them. What I've decided to do with those is simply read and pass them along to someone on my team to review and decide how to handle. You won't get direct response, but the details will be communicated to the team, and hopefully, you'll notice something you've suggested has been implemented.

 

I like how Xo-Lara put it about minor changes can get added in quickly, but major changes need to be worked into our pipeline. Yep, that's exactly right!

 

From all the messages I have received and reading many posts here on the forums, it's quite apparent the change in communication has been greatly appreciated. Internally, there's also an increased willingness to provide you with better insight about how and why we made a decision and to ask your opinions. Personally, I like seeing this happen and look forward to fostering even more communication.

 

So, what does any of that have to do with "How does our feedback work"? Everything. Specifically, I leverage all the feedback you provide, I personalize it by blending it into how I play the game, then I communicate it to the Dev Team, and I follow up to see how best to respond, determine the priority of the request, add it to the backlog, or adjust the schedule to incorporate the change into the game. But, we all know talk is cheap and until there's action behind our words, skepticism remains. I'm OK with that!

 

--Keith-

 

Please add some kind of duo que option to Solo que. DO NOT make it a 2nd que. You do not want to divide the dwindling player base even more. People want to be able to play competitive pvp with at least one friend and Team ranked even on Harbinger does not populate. I really think the addition of a duo que feature to solo que would make this game much more enjoyable and probably cause pvp participation to increase.

[Deewe]

This is not a movie. This also isn't a book. It's a game and the vanilla game featured your character as the main protagonist. But that changed with KOTFE. You can't treat a game like a movie.

Totally agree you can give cinematic experience in terms of immersion but it has to be an active experience not a passive one like being sat in in a movie theater.

 

In a MMO the player has to feel HE is in control of his character. In KOTFE everyone else is controlling the main character.

[LordTurin]

Please add some kind of duo que option to Solo que. DO NOT make it a 2nd que. You do not want to divide the dwindling player base even more. People want to be able to play competitive pvp with at least one friend and Team ranked even on Harbinger does not populate. I really think the addition of a duo que feature to solo que would make this game much more enjoyable and probably cause pvp participation to increase.

 

If you made people able to q with a partner for solo queue, you are de-facto killing solo queue and turning it into another group queue, as those who queue alone won't be able to compete against premade that know what they are doing and are in voice comms.

 

You can kind of get the same effect by queueing on pub side on most servers anyway, but to make it an actual option is a bad idea.

[ZionHalcyon]

Ah yes... the famous double down, rather then accept that you were yelling at me and dictating to me.

 

I find your flinty nature with people that say things you do not agree with to be a bit over the top.

 

I'm done discussing things with you.. as nothing good comes from it except you attacking and accusing me of doing things I am not actually doing.

 

Bye

 

I am not the one who said that people who were saying they were mad about story were actually mad about a lack of group content.

 

So I stand by my statement that you were being intentionally disingenuous.

 

And it remains suspicious that you disengage when called on it.

 

But ceil la vie. I don't have a personal agenda against you like you are painting me as having - I just have a problem with your tactic of when you disagree with something, attribute the thing you are disagreeing with to something other than what the stated item you disagreed with is.

 

I apologize for my overpassionate responses (that is a character flaw of mine,) but Its a pattern I've noticed repeatedly with you enough times to think its intentional.

 

And yes, disingenuous.

Edited June 23, 2017 by ZionHalcyon

[Jamtas]

 

As a point of clarification, when I mentioned that we condensed the story based on feedback, it was not that we felt the overall story of KOTFE/monthly chapters were received poorly at large (quite the opposite, really) it was that the pacing of the story was widely seen as too slow/drawn out. We took that feedback, assessed our plans, ultimately agreed, and made a change.

 

One last note about numbers: it's commonly asked how we balance feedback against data and metrics, so this is a great place to use as an example. Numerically speaking, KOTFE and KOTET were our most successful expansions by a very significant margin. We didn't change anything in the story based on numbers (the numbers would've said to keep doing exactly what we were doing), we changed them based on the passionate feedback we received from y'all.

 

So keep it up! But, y'know, be cool to each other in the process

 

So in reading this and your previous post, it makes it hard to believe that KOTFE/KOTET were as well received as they are being made to be (unless we are playing loosely with the definition of "well received"). If you are going to state most successful in history of the game, it makes it hard to agree with that in what feels like a large decline in population of the game. Now, I'm sure you can't give numbers, but what help believe that would be:

1) comparison in # of active accounts (subscriber and FTP) around each expansion

2) those same comparisons after 3/6 months

 

But most successful in history of the game also begs the follow-up - by what metrics is this being defined? Most cost efficient, highest # of subscribers, most active players in game's history?

 

Then extra considerations to take in account:

1) KOTFE/KOTET also benefited from being released on the heels of The Force Awakens and Rogue One while previous expansions did not benefit from being able to piggyback on the film.

2) All previous expansions had to be bought separately as a subscriber. KOTFE/KOTET were given to all with an account (and a free trial for those without a sub). Surely that can skew those numbers as well.

 

I say this as someone who was here in beta and at launch and paid non stop all the way through this past January when I finally felt I had to speak with my wallet - as frivolous as that is. Keith's promise in communication (which I feel he has more than honored) was a big reason for that. But I was one who left and just took a break from all gaming. I know many friends and former guildmates who left to other games and while noticing improvements, can't justify that enough is being released compared to their new homes to return.

 

I just find it hard to believe that these two expansions were so successful, while also reading how quickly things were being scrapped and condensed as a result of feedback. If it was so well received, then complaints of it being dragged out and focusing too much on XYZ would be a minority.

 

I just feel like KOTFE/KOTET left the game in a worse state than they found it in. Sure there are definitely QOL improvements and systems added that are improvements, but I think it did far more damage to the game's population than you are letting on.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Jamtas

[TUXs]

But the bottom line is this: Charles only had to cut 2/3rds of the Story because the story in KotFE really wasn't that good, and didn't feel like Star Wars and more players were unhappy with it than were happy with it. That's harsh, but that is how it is. Had the first half of KotFE been half as good as the Class Stories and felt like Star Wars Charles would have had all the time he needed.

Nah...the story wasn't the big issue. Lack of OTHER updates was. Charles only got 2/3 of what he wanted because it was cut short to focus on real MMO content, not exclusively story. They have hopefully learned that an MMO needs attention to all aspects to succeed.

[ZionHalcyon]

So in reading this and your previous post, it makes it hard to believe that KOTFE/KOTET was as well received as they are being made to be. If you are going to state most successful in history of the game, it makes it hard to agree with that in what feels like a large decline in population of the game. Now, I'm sure you can't give numbers, but what help believe that would be:

1) comparison in # of active accounts (subscriber and FTP) around each expansion

2) those same comparisons after 3/6 months

 

Then extra considerations:

1) KOTFE/KOTET also benefited from being released on the heels of The Force Awakens and Rogue One while previous expansions did not benefit from being able to piggyback on the film.

2) All previous expansions had to be bought separately as a subscriber. KOTFE/KOTET were given to all with an account (and a free trial for those without a sub). Surely that can skew those numbers as well.

 

I say this as someone who was here in beta and at launch and paid non stop all the way through this past January when I finally felt I had to speak with my wallet - as frivolous as that is. Keith's promise in communication (which I feel he has more than honored) was a big reason for that. But I was one who left and just took a break from all gaming. I know many friends and former guildmates who left to other games and while noticing improvements, can't justify that enough is being released compared to their new homes to return.

 

I just find it hard to believe that these two expansions were so successful, while also reading how quickly things were being scrapped and condensed as a result of feedback. If it was so well received, then complaints of it being dragged out and focusing too much on XYZ would be a minority.

 

I just feel like KOTFE/KOTET left the game in a worse state than they found it in. Sure there are definitely QOL improvements and systems added that are improvements, but I think it did far more damage to the games population than you are letting on.

 

My observations mirror yours. I was shocked in a sense that the packs were so well received given the decline in the population. I left for a year about a couple months after KotFE launched. I remembered how active the forums were back then, even prior to KotFE, and by comparison, they feel a LOT emptier and less active now as a player who returned at the beginning of the month.

 

If these expansions were so popular, where did all the people go?

 

But that observation aside, if we take him at his word, I can actually understand some of the appeal, if you take story out of it.

 

KotFE and KotET have the best Quality of Life improvements this game has ever seen. There has never been any expansion that improved the core game as much as these 2 packs. Ignoring the story itself, but focusing on the cinematics, the production quality of the story has never been higher. Frankly, the only thing really damn wrong with the expansions was the story itself - and even then, it really boils down to a handful of creative decisions:

 

1. The Decision to Make Vitiate Valkorion. Vitiate was the ultimate evil based on the vanilla game - someone who wanted to consume all life the galaxy and remake it in his image. So then KotFE comes along and you find out he just up and decides to change his mind? Got himself laid and had some kids a while back, and all that would make his life complete is taking over your body in the slowest and most inane way possible? OF COURSE PEOPLE WERE GOING TO GO "***?"
   
2. Ditching all companions without a chance to get them back again before the expansions are over. I am actually ok with hitting the reset button on companions so long as they are brought back in the service of the story, and remain consistent to who they were before. But other than some throwaway lines, the companion stories may as well not have happened. To some, companion stories are even more important than the main class stories. It was a very bad misstep.
   
3. Forcefeeding the player into a single faction to serve development instead of story. The game is about the ongoing struggle between the Republic and the Sith. I am not opposed to a story that takes us out into the unkown regions and a weird planet with a royal family in control of the force in charge. Could be interesting if handled right. But having this family show up as a 3rd faction that effectively wipes out the other 2 and forces the player into NO faction? How does that NOT come off to people as "we wanted to hit the reset button on the story so that we only had to worry about a single story from now on."? It's brutally apparent that was not done in service to the story, but in service to the devleopmental budget. And if it had to happen, there were better ways to do it and keep the spirit of the Sith vs the Republic alive.
   

 

There are others, and I could go on, but if the whole Zakuul plot were handled with more care and deference to the story leading up to KotFE, and there wasn't a hamfisted attempt to hit a story reset button and instead, Zakuul was just a proper continuation of the stories, I think it would have been fine, amazing even.

 

Unfortunately based on Boyd's comments, it certainly feels like they got the wrong message and are going to double down in saying "Eff you" to the Pre KotFe story.

Edited June 23, 2017 by ZionHalcyon

[ZionHalcyon]

Nah...the story wasn't the big issue. Lack of OTHER updates was. Charles only got 2/3 of what he wanted because it was cut short to focus on real MMO content, not exclusively story. They have hopefully learned that an MMO needs attention to all aspects to succeed.

 

That's not what Charles said though? I thought he said they cut it short because people felt the pacing was really bad based on the feedback, and thus they decided to trim it to improve the experience, and unfortunately, the protracted way they were going to bring companions back in had to get cut in the process?