How does our feedback work

[americanaussie]

This is a great chance to talk about story, and how folks' feedback on story is integrated. Let's use KOTFE, the monthly chapters, and KOTET as the example.

 

A) The original plan was that we would have a trilogy of "Knights of" expansions focused on dealing with Valkorion and his Eternal Empire, with episodic chapters between them. The major story beats would occur in the expansions, while the episodic chapters would be just that: episodic, mostly stand-alone beats focused on returning companions and side stories.

 

B) The most common issues that we saw from the community feedback after KOTFE and the first few monthly chapters were:

1. The story felt dragged out (monthly chapters in particular)
   
2. At least partly due to #1, the companion-focused chapters were not as well-received as the KOTFE ones (although desire to get companions back remained high).
   
3. Many players felt that there weren't enough choices in the storyline with big enough impacts/consequences, or that those impacts/consequences were delayed so far that they didn't feel meaningful or connected.
   
4. Some folks simply didn't like the core premise. Introducing a new empire, expanding on Vitiate/Valkorion, players frozen in carbonite for five years, missing companions, etc.
   

 

C) Changes that were made as a result of that feedback:

1. We compressed the story such that it would be completed in Knights of the Eternal Throne.
   
2. Later monthly chapters were modified to focus more on the core storyline, and less on companion returns.
   
3. The writers constructed the storyline of KOTET specifically to offer bigger choices that would pay off in visible and interesting ways.
   
4. This was the core creative vision of the entire thing, so there wasn't much changed here - it wouldn't really be feasible. That's not to say that we ignored this feedback or don't take it seriously; it's just that any creative endeavor has some core concept at its heart that can't be changed without scrapping everything. This was the story direction that excited us as creators and fans, so it's the one we pursued even as we made the above changes along the way.
   

 

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

 

Overall, story is one of the most difficult areas to implement feedback, since we've usually constructed the next several beats by the time players see any of it and provide feedback. But hopefully this post helps to demonstrate that we still try very hard to implement feedback-driven changes into story regardless of the challenges.

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming

 

Aww this makes me sad too

[menofhorror]

It's ironic but honestly the weakest part of the game's updates since the last two years was probably the story.

[americanaussie]

It's ironic but honestly the weakest part of the game's updates since the last two years was probably the story.

 

In your opinion. I actually resubbed because of kotfe and I loved kotet even more. But I love the story.

[Estelindis]

I disagree on this. Do believe me though, I did not like KOTFE/ET but the Arcann and Senya choices led to different cutscenes and dialogue options. When it comes to "choices mattering" it's not about the ending. I am ok with the ending being the same. It's HOW you approach the ending and if you receive different dialogue options/different cutscenes by choosing differently.

I disagree along with you. I've only played the Zakuul story twice, but I made almost every decision differently between the two characters, and the change in my experience was significant. I fully admit that a lot of things stayed the same, but a lot of things were different too.

[casirabit]

In your opinion. I actually resubbed because of kotfe and I loved kotet even more. But I love the story.

 

I am actually glad to see this post because I was starting to think I was the only one that like the story. So thanks.

[Estelindis]

I am actually glad to see this post because I was starting to think I was the only one that like the story. So thanks.

Same here - I came back for the new story focus too.

[Deewe]

It's ironic but honestly the weakest part of the game's updates since the last two years was probably the story.

Matter of reduced budget and lack of replayability.

[DarthDymond]

I am actually glad to see this post because I was starting to think I was the only one that like the story. So thanks.

You're not the only one by a long shot. There was a sizeable outpouring of people approving of the story when the expansion launched.

 

@ Zion, OneHit, and co., If you didn't like it, that's perfectly valid. There are certainly a number of players who feel that way, so I'm not saying it was universally loved. But there was/is a significant amount of appreciation for it on the forums (and not just coming from the same few people over and over again) - enough so that I honestly think it's a bit of a stretch to describe the overall reaction as anything worse than "mixed."

 

By way of example, here are... oh... fifty unique posters praising the story pulled from nothing more than running a quick search of "KOTET, Story" in the forum search and taking a look at late Novermber to December of last year [spoiler tag for length]:

 

Dear Devs: the KOTET story is great. Thank you.

as the title says

Overall i enjoyed this expansion so far, the story was very well done [...] i gave it good 8/10 though if the chapter 9 has more outcome differences i would make the overall rating a 9/10.

I loved KoTET.

As always, great stories. [...] I adore Biowares story telling and this was no exception.

I am really impressed by the new expansions story. After the last expansion I had given up on this game but this story is top notch.

I felt the story was fast-paced, kept me engaged, made me think/figure things out, and provided me with a satisfying conclusion.

Just finished the last chapter and it was quite satisfying!

Had a really enjoyable time going through the story.

Huge thanks to the team and talent that wrote and designed KOTFE/KOTET. As a consumer, the quality and delivery of the story left me very gratified.

I enjoyed it as well.

Yup, same here.

I agree OP....too bad you'll likely be drowned out by the haters

GG Bioware...moar plz?

I would like to say that....aside from one chapter I hated (mainly based on how it was set up, forced encounters, boss fights, etc) the story was superb....AFTER I took it all as one block.

Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Thanks guys!

I think y'all did an outstanding job. [...] What I want to say, is that I've talked to and read posts by a lot of folks like me. Who thought KOTET was very good, or even plain fantastic.

+1 to this

I love the story you guys wrote but i'm so sorry you writers had to get shacked to this cxp system

Great post. +1 to the story and overall expansion being really well done.

I loved the story and had fun playing through it on my main and I think the writers did an awesome job

They did plenty of things right with KotET, including the story

Posting here to show my support and vouch for the KOTET writing team. It was a great story and it was a great step up from KOTFE as well.

I like the story and the gameplay of it.

Story is awesome.

No argument on this one. Well done, gentlepersons. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Agreed!

Much much better than KotFE. Kudos!

I'm going to echo the sentiments already put forth in this thread. Thank you to everyone who put this story into our hands.

Thank you so much

I agree, very nice story, neatly wrapped up and satisfying. Great atmosphere overall.

One more voice chiming in to say that I really enjoyed the vast majority of KotET! Excited to see what comes next.

Me too. Loved it.

I enjoyed it as well!

The story is so great, it makes the Jedi vs Sith saga look like a children's bedtime story.

I like the story overall.

I also enjoyed the story.

I was very happy that they've returned to the excellent story telling in KOTFE and KOTET.

I agree OP and I think you'll find that many others do as well.

It is simply the BEST EXPANSION EVER

Brilliant story, really well-made. Appreciated all the substantive choices, the great scenes, the new romance references in dialogue - great job.

I really enjoyed it as well. Am even replaying some chapters now that I found really fun.

Let me join you in the praise - love the story

The story was GREAT! Loved every second of it. I will happily continue my sub for a long time if they continue to put that level of depth and immersion into the storytelling, cinematics, and gameplay.

Me too i love kotet

overall I loved the story. It was an improvement over KOTFE overall, I think.

I just wanted to say that I too enjoyed KOTET a lot!

I actually really enjoyed the story, it was well done - lacking in some areas, but we can't please everyone with love interest moments, as nice as they are.

I liked it and will enjoy replaying it.

It was so good and then the little bit at the end about the republic and empire gearing up for war again...

Agreed. The story was a truly epic conclusion to much of what was set up at game launch. Very satisfying and worthy.

Very curious to see where they go with this.

I like it. [...] Overall I'm impressed with the story, and the wide types of content in them.

Loved the story, just don't see me playing through it on my other 26 toons.

KOTET is a monumental success !! I'm talking about the story.

Thanks BW for a kick-*** expansion and a worthy sequel to KOTOR 1-2.

First of all I would like to say I found the plotline of KOTET very good. Some boring chapters, but good story overall.

Just finished the story, 10/10! *spoilers*

Very satisfying ending, [...] I was worried because of how Fallen Empire went but very satisfied with Eternal Throne, keep up the good work

 

 

Edited June 23, 2017 by DarthDymond

[ScottishDrunk]

So it's appear that your feedback told you that the desire to get comps back was high, but you binned bringing them back to continue the story that your feedback told you people didnt like?

 

That's a wee bit arse over *** is it not?

 

Do you have plans to kill off this awful story once and for all, because we're still stuck on this throne

[Alssaran]

By way of example, here are... oh... fifty unique posters praising the story pulled from nothing more than a quick search of "KOTET, Story" in the forum search and taking a look at late Novermber to December of last year.

 

Alright. Now, should I go through the forum and search for all the criticism and people who disagreed with the story? We might get a tremendously long list of things that can't be contained by a single post alone.

 

The point isn't to disagree with the fact that people like the story. There are. But when you look at the forum for six months, and espescially factor in general discussions and the story forums, then the criticism for it far outweighs the critical acclaim.

 

This is precisely what they said you should never do. You're making it sound as if we are saying nobody likes the story, and you're pulling these names up to prove us wrong. Only that we are not saying that. What we are saying is that for these fifty names in your list, I could probably find 200 in the same timeframe who are "meh" or "didn't like it" about the story. That's the entire point.

 

And there's actually a good case for it: If the story was loved by a less vocal majority, Bioware would probably not have shortened it. There was some valid and overwhelming criticism for how KotFE and KotET were executed and felt in regards to Star Wars.

 

Summary: Don't try to deflect criticism and make people out to be negative by looking for some people who agree with you. We're not saying there aren't any. We are saying that dismissing how critical and widely indifferent people were about KotET based on a few examples is nonsense. It was less than ideal or mixed for months. And when you're making a story based MMORPG, "indifferent" is not the target mood.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Alssaran

[aerockyul]

-SNIP-

D) The end result: the overall storyline was cut down by more than a third so that it would play out more quickly, while simultaneously introducing more choices and consequences. Companion returns had to be put on the backburner to achieve these changes, and my original plan to do entire chapters for each of them just aren't feasible at this point, so we're currently working on plans to get them back as expediently as possible. (If I sound a little sad about that part in particular, I am, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that folks are out of patience on that one )

 

Keep the great posts and thoughts - and especially feedback! - coming

 

Thank you for the post, Charles. You made me a little sad, too, because I think if a lot of us had known the plan regarding returning companions, there might have been a lot more patience shown on the subject (one would hope). Whole chapters dedicated to them sounds like it would have been awesome!!!

I don't like the current workaround to get mute companions back by clicking on a console (which might break future content when they are finally brought back into the fold naturally?), and I didn't like the sort of cursory treatment some comps got through very short alerts that have that very off-putting dialogue/cutscene aspect from the DA:O years (nothing wrong with it at the time, but considering the quality of most cutscenes in SWTOR, it just seemed like obvious cost-cutting and devalued how a lot of us felt about our companions thanks to the high-quality content we got from them in vanilla. Also, one of the highlights of this game by far is the quality of the main-voice cast. They are amazing and I love to hear them talk, not stare at their backs and click on unspoken dialogue!).

 

Again, appreciate the post and the increased communication. My voice may not matter at this point, but I hope you don't abandon completely the idea of getting our companions back in "chapter-size" content and not something like "here you go, they're back, they're mute, now shut up and leave us alone about them"

[DarthDymond]

Alright. Now, should I go through the forum and search for all the criticism and people who disagreed with the story? We might get a tremendously long list of things that can't be contained by a single post alone.

 

The point isn't to disagree with the fact that people like the story. There are. But when you look at the forum for six months, and espescially factor in general discussions and the story forums, then the criticism for it far outweighs the critical acclaim.

 

This is precisely what they said you should never do. You're making it sound as if we are saying nobody likes the story, and you're pulling these names up to prove us wrong. Only that we are not saying that. What we are saying is that for these fifty names in your list, I could probably find 200 in the same timeframe who are "meh" or "didn't like it" about the story. That's the entire point.

 

And there's actually a good case for it: If the story was loved by a less vocal majority, Bioware would probably not have shortened it. There was some valid and overwhelming criticism for how KotFE and KotET were executed and felt in regards to Star Wars.

 

Summary: Don't try to deflect criticism and make people out to be negative by looking for some people who agree with you. We're not saying there aren't any. We are saying that dismissing how critical and widely indifferent people were about KotET based on a few examples is nonsense.

I absolutely believe you can rustle up 80-100 examples of different people disliking the story. I also absolutely believe I can rustle up 80-100 examples of people liking the story.

 

That is why my entire point is that the prevailing general reaction was mixed at worst. I am not saying that a clear majority enjoyed it. I am not taking issue with people who claim that there are those who disliked it - I agree that there are plenty.

 

I am taking issue with people who keep saying the prevailing reaction was overwhelmingly negative or that a clear majority disliked it, when it is obvious that there are a significant number of people on both sides of it. Again, the reaction was mixed, not a clear majority either way.

Edited June 23, 2017 by DarthDymond

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I absolutely believe you can rustle up 80-100 examples of different people disliking the story. I also absolutely believe I can rustle up 80-100 examples of people liking the story.

 

That is why my entire point is that the prevailing general reaction was mixed at worst. I am not saying that a clear majority enjoyed it. I am not taking issue with people who claim that there are those who disliked it - I agree that there are plenty.

 

I am taking issue with people who keep saying it was overwhelmingly negative or that a clear majority disliked it, when it is obvious that there are a significant number of people on both sides of it. Again, the reaction was mixed, not a clear majority either way.

 

I tend to agree with what you are saying here. I personally wasn't a major fan of the story and have criticized it but that's basically in light of what we got vs what I thought we could have got or where we had been before.

I could go on and on about what I found poor about the story, how annoyed I was there was nothing to set my class story as part of it, the companion debacle but the truth is if I really get down to it I did indeed "enjoy" the story, I had fun with it and am glad I paid and played it. This doesn't mean I don't think it was weak in areas, could have been so much better etc. etc. but I did indeed enjoy it for what it was.

 

I think if many, who are supposedly negative, were honest they would fall into this camp. I honestly don't believe there would be very many people around who truly outright disliked the story and didn't have any enjoyment from it what so ever, at least if there are you would think they aren't on the forums paying for the game at the moment. *shrug*.

 

The biggest issues with the negativity imo of the story at the time weren't so much the story itself it was more than it was there in place of group content (as opposed to side by side), that it was episodic and there just generally felt like a lack of content over the period and this is still continuing on through to today.

 

The question then is though is it because of KoTFE and how it was managed/done that we have less content coming now due to reduced budgets and KoTFE overall not performing as well as expected> Only BWA could answer that ...

[Exocor]

The problem wasn't the story... the problem was the missing multiplayer content meanwhile.

 

I would have accepted just one op per expansion on cost of some minutes of story. Maybe we can compare it with SoR? Cut one of the ops and investigate the ressources needed in more story content - that would have been fine overall. At least better then what we got.

[Alssaran]

I am taking issue with people who keep saying it was overwhelmingly negative or that a clear majority disliked it, when it is obvious that there are a significant number of people on both sides of it.

 

Then we are simply stuck at a point where we all might as well stop talking about it arguing alltogether because no one has an answer that does not rely on his subjective viewpoint of how the forums were for six months. How significant are the people on both sides? What numbers are we looking at? Only Bioware has these numbers, and they seem to act on them.

 

It remains a very contentious topic, but as someone who is "meh" about it and doesn't much care whether it continues or not, I can see where the people who say the reaction was overwhelmingly negative are coming from. There were a few weeks after release when there were dozens of posts on the first few pages of this subforum, detailing what went wrong.

 

Point is: We can consent that it might have been meh, but that's nothing to proudly defend. For a story-driven MMORPG with a Star Wars license and a Bioware game, to have a "meh" in a story focused year is a bad sign. It's not a 40/100 then. It's a mixed 50/100 as a consent to you. What has changed? All these posts have a common denominator that even your post joins in - it wasn't widely acclaimed or "good"/"great" for most people. And as I said, there's even a good point for that based on what Charles wrote.

 

And whenever someone comes in and says: "I have these 50/100 people who think it was great" or "my guild loved it", it feels like an unnecessary defense of something that is...slightly problematic. Nobody is saying there aren't people who like it, and arguing whether it's a 40 or a 50 is besides the point. And, truth be told, I understand why people get tired of it.

 

No, it's not a stinking pile of garbage. That's a hyperbole. But even "meh" or "mixed" isn't a good sign, and we should discuss that instead of arguing about whether it's slightly negative or mixed for the 1,000 time.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Alssaran

[Andryah]

I absolutely believe you can rustle up 80-100 examples of different people disliking the story. I also absolutely believe I can rustle up 80-100 examples of people liking the story.

 

That is why my entire point is that the prevailing general reaction was mixed at worst. I am not saying that a clear majority enjoyed it. I am not taking issue with people who claim that there are those who disliked it - I agree that there are plenty.

 

I am taking issue with people who keep saying the prevailing reaction was overwhelmingly negative or that a clear majority disliked it, when it is obvious that there are a significant number of people on both sides of it. Again, the reaction was mixed, not a clear majority either way.

 

Accurate assessment in my view.

 

I think the most objective setpoint on this is:

> Some people liked the story approach in KoTFE/KoTET

> Some people disliked the story approach in KoTFE/KoTET

> Some people did not feel strongly one way or the other

 

Exact numbers with respect to each (speculative at best by players) do not matter, and are only forum weapons of opinion presented as fact. Results were a mixed bag... with no definitive majority on any of the three expressed experiences with the story.

 

The core issues for KoTFE/KoTET in my view were not story per se.. but the fact that their revamping of story approach meant a lot of resources (as they also were reworking older content to make it relevant as part of KoTFE) and as such... those who put PvP and raiding as higher priority to them over story.... were feeling largely ignored in 4.0/5.0

 

What is most interesting to me as we get more details from Charles here is that they had actually mapped out a trilogy of story arcs over multiple expansions.... and that when they saw feedback about KoTFEs approach to with deferred chapters... they adjusted in KoTET.... and frankly... this latest expansions core issues with most players was not the story per se... but the addition of a poorly finished and clearly deficient (did not match what they said it would be) Galactic Command. Galactic Command as an approach was not bad, but the way they released it will forever leave a sour taste with many players. It still needs some improvements, but it is much much better then at launch of 5.0. It's a shame it took them sooooooooo long to make the needed adjustments to Galactic Command.

 

What Charles has shared, after the fact, is that they did have a grand plan, it did not go well in some ways, and feedback from players WAS embraced and changes were made to their original multi-expac plans.. and frankly they are still changing that long term plan... based largely on a broad range of player feedback.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Andryah

[Zolxtren]

looking at the Mercs and Sorc changes it does not work at all......

[DarthDymond]

The biggest issues with the negativity imo of the story at the time weren't so much the story itself it was more than it was there in place of group content (as opposed to side by side), that it was episodic and there just generally felt like a lack of content over the period and this is still continuing on through to today.

And there's actually a nice contrast concerning the overarching player reaction to other elements of 5.0 - I think it is perfectly fair to say that the prevailing reaction to the Galactic Command System (as launched) was strongly negative.

 

I believe there was a clear majority opinion on the GC (at least on the forums, setting aside the question of just how representative that is of the overall population), but I just don't think the same is true of the story - the reaction to the story is mixed, without a clear majority either way.

[menofhorror]

In your opinion. I actually resubbed because of kotfe and I loved kotet even more. But I love the story.

 

Yes, if you are looking for a Star Wars Telltale experience then I guess this is just for you. But most don't feel that way I think.

[ZionHalcyon]

You're not the only one by a long shot. There was a sizeable outpouring of people approving of the story when the expansion launched.

 

@ Zion, OneHit, and co., If you didn't like it, that's perfectly valid. There are certainly a number of players who feel that way, so I'm not saying it was universally loved. But there was/is a significant amount of appreciation for it on the forums (and not just coming from the same few people over and over again) - enough so that I honestly think it's a bit of a stretch to describe the overall reaction as anything worse than "mixed."

 

By way of example, here are... oh... fifty unique posters praising the story pulled from nothing more than running a quick search of "KOTET, Story" in the forum search and taking a look at late Novermber to December of last year [spoiler tag for length]:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know there are some people who liked the story. However don't oversell it and say there is a significant amount of people who liked it. That doesn't take into account all the people who have quit over the story Direction and all the threads from many different people at the time KotFE was released posting that they were quitting over the story both on these very farms and Reddit.

 

Just by that alone and accounting for the fact that the forums are nowhere near as busy as they were just before KotFE, one would expect that the forms currently Main and lean more towards those who liked the story simply because a great majority left. Yet even so, when you weigh that against those who are still here and yet still not liking the direction of the story, those against outnumber those for at least 3 to 1 if not all the way up to 8 to 1.

 

All one needs to do is look for the first three pages of this forum and you'll find a threat already still complaining about the story Direction with many people agreeing in it. What you don't find unless someone decides to make them after I make this post after the fact, are people making thread after thread praising the new story and how wonderful it is and how much like Star Wars it is and how it wonderfully continues the story pre KotFE. You can't find that unless someone decides to make one now out of spite in an effort to prove me wrong.

 

Please understand I am not ripping people who enjoy the story.

 

All I am doing is fighting for the correct context which is that those who did enjoy the story are the minority compared to those who did not and are still here fighting the good fight hoping to see it changed or those who left over it.

 

And if we're being honest, if they did decide to go back and redo it to bring the majority back to the game, those who enjoy the current story would enjoy the redone one as well most likely and at the very least wouldn't be the type to be so particular about story that they'd quit over it. Because if we are being frank if they were that particular about story in the first place they would likely be upset too that the New Direction totally poops all over and ignores the classes stories and the unified stories all the way up to shadow of Revan.

 

Sorry to be blunt but that's just how I see it.

[menofhorror]

To the people liking the story:

 

It's all good if you like it but that also shows that you aren't bothered by continuity errors and plotholes (the entire Vitiate/Valkorion thing makes no sense to this day)

[YlliyaXor]

Majority of players are imperials, i mean there's a reason the imp fleet is twice the size of the pub one, anyone who plays mainly imp will have little interest in kotfe since the zakuulans are pretty much the same as the sith, imp players don't want to save people and stop massacres, the want to be the one people have to be saved from and commit the massacres themselves.

 

In the imp class stories there's barely any republic presence, it's mainly sith infighting, the exception is the BH which is mainly mandalorian infighting, with latter acts falling in line with more sith intfighting, with the twist that there are jedi acting like sith instead, i don't know where this idea of republic versus empire comes from, from a pub perspective zakuul or the empire are the same, right down to their leader.

 

Players here don't just dislike kotfe, they dislike everything, except pvp and ops, i guess the part where the game actually rebounded when kotfe was announced was my imagination.

 

And i don't even like kotfe that much.

[ZionHalcyon]

I absolutely believe you can rustle up 80-100 examples of different people disliking the story. I also absolutely believe I can rustle up 80-100 examples of people liking the story.

 

That is why my entire point is that the prevailing general reaction was mixed at worst. I am not saying that a clear majority enjoyed it. I am not taking issue with people who claim that there are those who disliked it - I agree that there are plenty.

 

I am taking issue with people who keep saying the prevailing reaction was overwhelmingly negative or that a clear majority disliked it, when it is obvious that there are a significant number of people on both sides of it. Again, the reaction was mixed, not a clear majority either way.

 

I think if you, in an honest way, skimmed through the forums and pulled every example of those for the story and those against going back back right after KotFE launched, you would find find same small group of people defending the story and a much much much larger group who either didn't like it or got so fed up with it that they left the game. Of course that's if you did the process honestly and without prejudice.

 

At this point, those of us who were here already know that the criticisms outweighed the critical Acclaim for the story by a far and wide large margin. People are different in that doesn't mean some people didn't enjoy the story.

 

But the bottom line is heading stayed true to the spirit of Star Wars and the class stories and faction stories that came right before, few if any people would have left in the same people who said they loved the story now would have likely said the same thing about a Star Wars story true or to the original Stories the game gave us.

 

Just understand, I am not attacking your right to like the story as it is. Rather I am correcting the wrong headed assumption that just because you liked the story doesn't mean it was 50-50 or that most people liked the story. That is a misrepresentation of what happened and all anyone needs to do is go back to when it launched and the outright criticisms of the story and the people leaving and account for all those different and unique voices to see that I am speaking the truth here. We're as I'm willing to bet you that if you went around and looked at all the posts defending the story, you would find the same groups of people doing so.

[ZionHalcyon]

To the people liking the story:

 

It's all good if you like it but that also shows that you aren't bothered by continuity errors and plotholes (the entire Vitiate/Valkorion thing makes no sense to this day)

 

And that's just it. The people who like the story aren't particularly picky. Which means if they went back and read did it they likely like the new story as well but the new story would bring back the people who do want continuity.

 

At this point I think the people defending the story don't really care that much about the story itself, they just want to draw a line in the sand and defend their side and win an argument

[Estelindis]

Mulling a bit on how player feedback influenced story, I have a serious question about feedback for the devs.

 

How do you tell which feedback, if listened to and used to guide change, will give players something they'll enjoy more than if you just kept on doing what you originally intended?

 

Fans aren't always good at predicting what we will actually enjoy most. Sometimes, the very worst thing you can give fans is what we think we want to happen. Some of the best-written media I've experienced, whose fandoms I've been part of for years, have tons of fan speculation between installments. Fans imagine what might happen and say what they hope will happen. "Wouldn't it be amazing if..." Then, when the next book or season (or whatever) is released, a lot of people have to admit: "thankfully the writers didn't listen to us - what they actually gave us was much better than anything we thought up." Almost like the writers making the excellent content are actual professional writers and most of the fandom isn't!

 

I genuinely do feel that listening to and communicating with fans is important. But how do you know when to change things on the basis of feedback and when keeping to your initial vision would be better? Does anything guide you in deciding?

 

To the people liking the story:

 

It's all good if you like it but that also shows that you aren't bothered by continuity errors and plotholes (the entire Vitiate/Valkorion thing makes no sense to this day)

This isn't true. One can like the story as a whole and still have major criticisms of parts of it. I know that's how I feel. For example, I really like the character arcs of Senya, Arcann, and Koth. I think they are partially weakened because the mashing together of Vitiate and Valkorion doesn't totally work, but they aren't negated. There are still many strong elements. They would just be better if the timeline sync'd properly. Like... if Valkorion was controlled by Vitiate for a long time and was darker as a result... and then he became lighter between the JK's killing of the Emperor and the atrocity on Ziost... and then darker again after the Emperor resumed control... that might have explained how Senya fell in love with him (assuming she wasn't just young and foolish enough to ignore everything dodgy about him in favour of being swept up by his charisma). But her children are way too old to have been born during that gap. The issue of how her character (and Arcann and Koth's) don't quite fit with the Vitiate/Valkorion timeline is a problem, but they are still great characters even with that problem. I can be bothered by the plothole and still enjoy what is there.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Estelindis