How Class Balance Happens

[Icykill_]

That is exactly what they aren't doing and that is also exactly what the problem is.

It's why this game has never seen, and under this mindset never will achieve, class balance.

 

Your English is excused because your point is solid.

 

Easy fix, not one that I like, but easier for them, and that is to remove all utilities and then they only need to worry about main abilities.

 

Edit : they may even consider trimming some of the ability over bloat that grows every expansion. I understand people like new stuff and expansions are a good way to give it too them. I also know most good players use all of the current ones. But it wouldnt be hard to combine a few or make them semi hybrid abilities of what they were. It may take a little to get used to, but trimming back a few abilities might help because there is less of them to tweak.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Icykill_

[Kurj]

And that would make ranged classes less useful in high mobility fights! Exactly my point! If you have to move you cant cast! If you cant cast then melee become more useful than range! Exactly the point I was making in the first place! Genius!

 

What are you talking about? The current meta is one of the least "high mobility" metas ever. You have endless snare courtesy of engi snipers. What has given you the impression that ranged classes are at a disadvantage right now?

[fifteendollers]

What are you talking about? The current meta is one of the least "high mobility" metas ever. You have endless snare courtesy of engi snipers. What has given you the impression that ranged classes are at a disadvantage right now?

 

I'm talking about PvE fights Kurj. Someone earlier said that if all specs had the same DPS then why bring a melee over a range class to a PvE fight. I replied that if ranged casters were forced to cast more often, in high mobility fights they wouldn't have an advantage over melee classes, so in essence both melee and ranged classes would be balanced by having their own niche fights. Then some other guy started arguing about specific instances of encounters to refute my position, or something.

Edited June 16, 2017 by fifteendollers

[Icykill_]

That's more or less where I am at too. Seriously, TYVM for the communication, it's great! But this approach is just very different than the reality of what needs to be done to address actual issues in the warzones in 5.0.

 

Which have been described in detail, for months, in the PvP forums.

 

ad infinitum.

 

I think the communication from them in the "general section" is great. But they need to participate in the "pvp forum section" and chat to us regarding all of those things we've been describing in the pvp forum. If they did and actually had a conversation with the pvp community and what our challenges and problems are, then maybe we wouldn't keep repeating the same problems and mistakes that we've had since launch and are just getting worse everytime they try to balance or add new abilities or utilities.

 

I too think the method they are using to balance is out of date and doesn't represent the game anymore. It really needs an overhaul.

One suggestion is "don't" use parsing dummies. They don't shoot back, they don't block, stats are wrong if testing for pvp, they don't LoS or move. Even pve bosses do half of this stuff. Plus they have adds too.

Let's not forget DCDs, slows, mez , stuns... and most importantly for pvp... resolve.

 

With limited resources I understand how difficult it would be too make whole sale changes to things. But there could be some tweaks and better testing. Actually getting "real" pvpers into test (sorry your inner office guys don't count) and give feed back and also allow you to collect data is something you could add to your process. I know you do this for boss fights (maybe not for balance), but for mechanics. There is nothing stopping you from doing both. I know lots of pvpers who would be willing to test and sign NDAs to get balance right.

 

In an ideal world you would split pvp and pve balance apart and have two seperate setups.

 

 

Edit. I wanted to share some of a post I made in the pvp section because I don't think they pay attention. This is from the perspective of a long time pvper who has basically given up on pvp and maybe the game.

 

"There has also been no discussion about Bolster and gear gap. It's been a major issue/topic in the pvp community and forum, but they've totally ignored the topic or even actually mentioned the words gear gap or Bolster.

That alone makes me depressed because they happily respond, joke and talk about mundane things (not discounting some of the important things), but seem to always steer past controversial or important topics like gear gap.

I would have loved even a token mention that they hear our concern and would like to discuss it with us, but nothing except more gear grind and making it a "tiny" bit faster if you already gear grind in pvp to 300 😢.

Maybe that gear grind wouldn't be so bad if you didn't get destroyed by BiS players for the first 100 lvls. I don't mean pve BiS players either, I mean real pvpers in BiS where skill can't overcome gear gaps. Then once you finally get one to 300, you have to go through it all again if you want to play an alt. Even at a 25% increase it will be a joke to grind through and certainly not enjoyable.

It's why I've boycotted lvl 70 pvp and ranked until its fixed. But any pvp sub 70 is pretty much dead most of the time and they don't seem to be doing anything to reinvigorate it, like accumulating components while doing sub 70 pvp. There doesn't even need to be a lot of them, just some to encourage people to play those brackets."

 

Keith, Eric, I love the current communication, it's a breath of fresh air. But you are ignoring pvp for a lot of us and I'm seeing a lot of "old" time and dedicated players just giving up now in disgust. Your stats may show pvp to be active, but it's just people farming components so they can pve, it's not real pvp and until you address those issue, especially balance for pvp, you will continue to lose "real" pvpers from the game. At that point you may as well remove it because it's won't be pvp anymore, it will just be a side game of "farmville".

Edited June 16, 2017 by Icykill_

[Izisvi]

You might have a point if you didn't skip the matter of IO energy system being total garbage.

 

Virulence boosts energy recovery from literally spamming double dots on anything in range. IO has to sustain the single target rotation for long periods to reach its best output and anything which isn't that starts writing an energy bill which needs paying, either with a CD, liberal use of default attack or doing nothing.

 

But sure, IO can do a decent burst if it stacks all the hard hitting abilities together. You just don't want to be forced to use it for that.

 

The damage labels might be wonky but Virulence is vastly better than IO in a messy fight.

 

An IO Merc is capable of providing fairly immediate pressure to an add, dots not even necessary. The mag shot/unload/TD portion of the rotation does respectable immediate damage to a target without sacrificing overall DPS (by simply maintaining dots on the boss and continuing the rotation on the add.)

 

A virulence sniper gets takedown/Lethal shot and that's about it, both of which will usually destroy your energy if used to burst an add. Series of shots is marginal and often a dps loss to use . Your other option is to spend 2-3 gcds dottin3g the target so you can Cull. And generally the target is going to die long before the dots have done meaningful damage, resulting in signficant DPS loss (not to mention poor performance in actually contributing to the add damage)

 

Now these aren't inherent problems. They are simply quirks of the spec, it's how dot specs work. But because of these quirks, it's completely unreasonable to qualify virulence as anything other than a ranged sustain.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Izisvi

[americanaussie]

So do I understand it right. Corruption will be seeing a nerf?

[RUDI]

I rarely post something, but really I lost all faith in people. Doing balancing from analytics perspective is dumb as ****. Well, except lightning sorcs 1sec cast to do 5k damage its cool really during that cast you will be leaped, netted, dead, etc.

 

With every patch you were adding utitites to classes which actually killed game balance, because some class received too much of them thus made this class very powerful.

 

Just food for thought:

Mercs have several lifes, and no you can't stun their every cd, because they for sure will stun and kill you before.

 

Snipers have insane self heals...i was in match where sniper did 1kk self-heals...this used to be class w/o healing. This class is long-range cannon...it shouldnt be so sturdy...it should hit hard...be mobile...but weak when somebody is close.

 

Now regs are broken for example, because good conceal op can hold well against 3 people , because of too much utility - roll with immunity, dodge with reflect, and i think stealth is overtuned in this game, stealth / mez is just ridicilous...in case you wondering game with goood stealth mechanics look at aion. I am not saying they are op, it just takes coordination to kill one good op, unless you are with voice, but hey this is regs. Same for hutball op is pretty much carry #1 now. Remember 3.0 when every class could carry well.

 

If i would were you I would think how to adjust utilities to make each class unique. It doesnt require to make each spec good for all type of content. Concealment could be ranked burst spec, lethality raiding spec with good sustain.

Edited June 16, 2017 by RUDI

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

So do I understand it right. Corruption will be seeing a nerf?

 

Yes Aussie, they will be.

Edited June 16, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[DamzTheShadow]

Damage Groupings for Damage Dealing Disciplines

Melee Sustained Damage Dealers (up to +5% of target DPS)

Annihilation Marauder / Watchman Sentinel

Hatred Assassin / Serenity Shadow

Lethality Operative / Ruffian Scoundrel

Pyrotech Powertech / Plasmatech Vanguard

Vengeance Juggernaut / Vigilance Guardian

Melee Quasi-Burst Damage Dealer (up to +2.5% of target DPS)

Fury Marauder / Concentration Sentinel

Melee Burst/Ranged Sustained Damage Dealers (at the target DPS)

Advanced Prototype Powertech / Tactics Vanguard

Carnage Marauder / Combat Sentinel

Concealment Operative / Scrapper Scoundrel

Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow

Engineering Sniper / Saboteur Gunslinger

Innovative Ordnance Mercenary / Assault Specialist Commando

Madness Sorcerer / Balance Sage

Rage Juggernaut / Focus Guardian

Ranged Quasi-Sustained Damage Dealer (down to -2.5% of target DPS)

Virulence Sniper / Dirty Fighting Gunslinger

Ranged Burst Damage Dealers (down to -5% of target DPS)

Arsenal Mercenary / Gunnery Command

Lightning Sorcerer / Telekinetics Sage

Marksmanship Sniper / Sharpshooter Gunslinger

 

Not sure i understand this, are gunnery/arsenal, lightning/tK, marks/sharp getting nerfed on DPS? Cuz they are nowhere near top parses, none of them is even in top50. Lethality/ruffian and other 2snipers are literally all over the parse leaderboards.

 

Anyway Merc/Commando do need nerf on That utility, trauma regulators, but their dps is ok, no need for nerfing there. Lightning might use dps increase tho

[fifteendollers]

Oh and one more thing.

 

Don't balance PvP around Solo Ranked. It's a far too flawed format of PvP.

[Exly]

Hey folks,

 

Over the next few weeks, as you know, it is our plan to give you specifics on upcoming Class/Discipline changes. One things that we have never done before is really get down in the trenches and explain how we balance Classes. With our continued move towards more transparency, we really wanted to lift the hood and provide as much context as possible for those changes. Below you will find an elaborate breakdown from our combat team on not only how they balance Classes, but why. I highly recommend you read the entire post (I know it’s long!). For the non-reader among you…

 

TLDR – We do not balance Disciplines against each other directly. Balance is based on target values which are determined by what type of damage dealer you are; ranged, melee, burst, sustained, etc.

 

Here is the detailed breakdown from the combat team:

 

With your "continued move towards more transparency", I am wondering if it is too much to ask you to provide us with:

 

1. Your data showing how the specs that were listed in the spoiler section of your post are currently performing.

2. Your target goals for each spec.

3. Your estimate of how each spec will perform once the balancing changes that you are making have been implemented.

 

I also suggest that you open up the test server once you have made the changes that you are working on so that we can provide you with some feedback before the changes hit the live servers.

[fifteendollers]

Oh and one more thing.

 

Sell me the original Tracer Missile animation.

[Glower]

Once we are happy with the damage output, we can start adjusting utilities to give those that need it a boost and others that are too powerful a reduction.

 

So... another year or so only to balance utilities? You guys are way too slow.

 

From a PvP point of view - i mean, yeah, for example you can tweak Pyro or even Advanced Prototype Powertech DPS output, but if you won't change their utilities, then it will be useless. No one will hops on them and grind gear only to do +5% more damage and then die like a fly.

 

Also you get no metrics from PvP players on weak classes by the same reason - because almost no one plays with them. Or even worse, you will get incorrect metrics from these leftovers...

Edited June 16, 2017 by Glower

[ZambedosNB]

This seems like a flawed methodology to me if you're going off player parses, and not theoretical values.

When a class looks good on paper, it gets declared the FOTM and a ton of people switch to this class and start learning it and perfecting it. That the class becomes well known is a significant factor in it performing well because class/rotation knowledge trumps literally everything.

Another example of the same concept: KOTFE Chapter 2 Monolith CXP farm. Was it a little too easy to sneak past most of the mobs? Sure. But what made it imbalanced wasn't so much that it was quick but rather that the community latched onto it and *perfected* clearing that instance. What took 12-15 minutes the first time eventually got shaved down to 7-8 minutes after every part of the process was examined and streamlined. I, for one, had it down to a literal science.

 

The same thing happens with classes as players attempt to learn, say, arsenal merc or sin tanks and succeed it starts looking better, but less people try to push the limits of what lightning sorc or MM sniper can do because it's generally seen as a lost cause and a good portion of the community says that it would be better to put that effort into a "better" class. And they have a point. I'm not saying there's not a need to buff those two classes, just pointing out that there is bias, so to speak, in player data.

 

P.S. Some of you are probably thinking that a massive influx of players to a class would bring down the average. While FOTM classes certainly attract bad players, they also attract the top-tier players most likely to actually perfect a class, which will boost it's numbers considerably. As for the average player I have a general faith that most players improve at a class the more they play it, even if the vast majority of FOTM chasers never reach the numbers of long time veterans to the class.

[Yezzan]

Eric,

 

Something is, fundamentally, wrong with the combat team's balancing formula. If you have 8 advanced specializations that fall in the same damage grouping then it should mean that their DPS should be the same, i.e., Annihilation, Hatred, Lethality, Pyrotech and Vengeance should, all, do the same DPS, ceteris paribus. But, that has never been the case. Similarly, if all healers fall in the same group and tanks in the same group then HPS and DTPS should be the same for all heals and tanks, respectively.

 

So, I am confused. Why is there such a significant DPS difference between classes that fall in the same damage category? For example, even with a standard error of +/- 300 DPS, Lethality is way ahead of Hatred and the others, in that grouping, by a maximum of almost 1200 DPS.

 

My understanding is that just in the same way mirror classes will do the EXACT, same, DPS so should classes that fall in the same Damage grouping ( or relatively the same). Is my understanding correct? For Example a Watchman Sentinel will do the SAME DPS as an Annihilation Marauder. So why doesn't a Hatred Assassin do the same DPS as a Lethality Operative, since they are in the same grouping? And even if they do not have a point for point DPS, due to standard error, it should not be a significant difference. In this case the difference is 1114 DPS. Reference: SWTOR DPS RANKINGS

Edited June 16, 2017 by Yezzan

[americanaussie]

Yes Aussie, they will be.

 

Shame. I felt that the rest needed to be buffed to be on their level.

[omaan]

Hey folks,

 

Over the next few weeks, as you know, it is our plan to give you specifics on upcoming Class/Discipline changes. One things that we have never done before is really get down in the trenches and explain how we balance Classes. With our continued move towards more transparency, we really wanted to lift the hood and provide as much context as possible for those changes. Below you will find an elaborate breakdown from our combat team on not only how they balance Classes, but why. I highly recommend you read the entire post (I know it’s long!). For the non-reader among you…

 

TLDR – We do not balance Disciplines against each other directly. Balance is based on target values which are determined by what type of damage dealer you are; ranged, melee, burst, sustained, etc.

 

Here is the detailed breakdown from the combat team:

 

I started to fight merc 1vs1 wasnt hitting him while trauma regulators on, used aoe dps whilst he used reflect, was hitting him hard with all burst and guess what? - IN THE END WHEN HE WAS ALLMOST DEAD HE USED TRAUMA REGULATORS AGAIN. Yeah, if u guys wont fix mercs NOW, /wave to u from subscribers.... leaving your game which ks full of mercs

[JattaGin]

@Friendly neighbourhood combat team:

 

Fantastic post. Very interesting to read. I didn't understand all of it, but luckily class balance has never bothered me that much. I just play and see where it leads me.

[mike_carton]

I fear my meager attempt at reason failed miserably heh, I figured it would, I know better heh but I figured it was worth a shot!

Just to be clear, I agreed with you completely in my post. Any criticism in my post was aimed at the original post that started this thread. I'm going to go back and edit my post to clarify that.

[Eloi_BG]

Another comment (I hope these are useful and combat team will go through the thread and that it isn't too late to change some things).

TLDR: 10% gap is too big, make it 6% or 8%. Also take AOE potential into account.

 

While I agree with your spec separation (even the mid places for fury and viru, I think you got it right), I saw in other comments earlier people talking about 10% being too big a difference between top and bottom spec. I got to say I have to agree with them. Considering a bad player, yes a melee sustained might need the 10% extra DPS over a range burst to make it feel like it is as good. However, can't balance the game for bad players (nor can you balance them for pros, else all specs would do the same damage cause pros can optimize any spec). Need to look at the average player than knows his class, but isn't flawless. A melee will lose a bit of up-time sometimes, but I guess moving the 10% gap to a 6% or 8% would be better. Like having melee sustained +3%, fury +1.5%, melee burst and range sustained 0%, viru -1.5% and range burst -3% (or 4,2,0,-2,-4).

 

Also like I said earlier in the thread, please take AOE damage into account when balancing DPS, not only single target.

[Wimbleton]

You type alot of words to say very little. Your TL;DR should have read: We balance using target dummies.

 

It's not damage that is causing the greatest problems. It's utilities and defensives.

 

Just to be sure you heard it:

 

It's utilities and defensives.

 

Your process is interesting and quite simplistic (which isn't bad) but who does what DPS is easy and controled by formula and algorithm. It's quite obvious that your "combat group" is a bunch of srettihs who don't know how to PvP and thats your greatest problem. Since it has to do with their inability to theorize the results of their changes to utilities and defensives correctly, I don't see your fixes being anything but random changes you chose or found somewhere on the forums. Certainly won't be thoughtful and willful changes. This, in turn, means even if you get it right this time, there's all the next times that this **** will continue to happen. Mebe hire someone who is competent at actually playing your game to develop your game. Just a thought.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Wimbleton

[K_osss]

Thanks for all the info on your decision making process; It's great to get more transparency! I understand your logic around class damage and generally agree with it particularly from a PVE perspective.

 

Like others have pointed out, from a PvP perspective the utilities have an enormous impact on all classes! There are several utilities in the Merc/Commando tree that could use a tweak in order to keep their survivability (which is also an important balance metric and one that you didn't really touch on with your damage explanation) in line with other classes. These utilities are Trauma Regulators and potentially Kolto Surge. I'm not as familiar with Sniper but Defensive Safeguards is, I believe, in a similar place as the aforementioned skills.

[Dhurwin]

angrywerdz

It's quite obvious that your "combat group" is a bunch of srettihs

moarangrywerz

 

A bunch of... what?

[ArhatMax]

Hey, Devs. And you again demonstrate complete ignorance of the mechanics of your same classes. From year to year, you try to balance classes, based only on the PvP component. Well, let me explain some of this nonsense. May be most of players will hate me, because I reveal all the secrets of good "bugged DPS".

1) If you nevertheless start from the "PVP component" in class balance planning, then first you need to fix this "PVP component". The complete absence of the "Resolve" mechanics (for example, Marauder stun me 11 times in a row on Odessen WZ), long-range capturing bunker by using Phase Walk bug on Novara Coast, Operatives simply "roll up" on a vertical wall on both Huttball arenas. And finally, you should fix displaying players on WZ, because we are already tired of the inability to hit/control a character that was a moment before you, and now it is already in the texture of the bridge, or under the floor or in some other incomprehensible place. Example of it under spoiler.

 

http://i.imgur.com/K82KHdL.jpg

 

2) I'm agree with take out Trauma Regulators utility, despite the fact that most of the players on my server have already learned not to hit me while the Energy Shield is active and just avoid it behind walls, columns and others buildings.

3) Without using Chain Lightning bug, Lightning spec still useless and it should be buffed, not nerfed.

4) You say that in 5 min fighting Plasmatech PT has higher DPS, than Rage Juggernaut? Are you serious? No comments.

5) Do you know, what Lethality is bugged and its passives act when they should not act? For example:

1. Devouring Microbes extends its effect (increase damage dealt by poison effects by 15%) to Corrosive Assault. I suppose, the game perceive immediate internal poison damage from Corrosive Assault like periodic internal damage from DoTs. But it should not work like this
   
2. Augmented Toxins also extend its effect (increase the critical chance and critical multiplier of your damaging and healing periodic effects by 30% for 6 seconds) to Corrosive Assault. On dummy parses additional attack from Corrosive Assault without AugTox buff hit = 4000-4100, with AugTox buff hit = 4800-4900. Below of 30% max health, additional attack from Corrosive Assault without AugTox buff hit = 4800-5000, with AugTox buff hit = 5800-5900. Its also should not work like this.
   

6) I'm the only burst DD (Arsenal Mercenary) in my static (others DD - Annihilation Marauder, Innovative Ordnance Mercenary, Lethality Operative). And sometimes I do the work that only a burst DD should do, like solo killing adds with assisting offtank on Sparky in Ravage HM. But on Gate Commander Draxus in Dread Fortress NiM most of other DD coming on Arsenal Mercs, because the Mercs combine good DPS and excellent survival which greatly facilitates the work of our healers.

I'm not even talking about the complete dependence Arsenal on crits, cause on each boss/dummy try we have absolutely different percenatge of crits (38-46%) with 1930+ crit rating and different misses 9-14% with more than 110% accuracy. How this difference can be?

So, as i understanding, if Arsenal Mercs will be nerfed on 5%, we will be incapable of doing the work we are doing right now.

P.S. Real mid dummy-DPS for now = 10500 (Its good for IO, Engineering, Carnage, Annihilation etc.). If you take this as a starting point, Arsenal Merc will be down from 10300 to 9975 and its probably not enough for serious PVE content.

Edited June 16, 2017 by ArhatMax

[EzioMessi]

Hey, Devs. And you again demonstrate complete ignorance of the mechanics of your same classes. From year to year, you try to balance classes, based only on the PvP component. Well, let me explain some of this nonsense.

 

How are you saying they balance solely on the PvP component? The only thing they have mentioned in the post is that they balance purely on DPS, HPS and DTPS for damage dealers, healers and tanks respectively. They aren't addressing survivability of dealers and healers, they aren't addressing the damage output of tanks, and they have left it up to grabs whether Arsenal Merc and Corruption Sorc (two of the most overpowered PvP classes) will encounter any nerf that isn't just a flat DPS/HPS reduction (which won't do anything at all for the former case and will hurt Sorc healers only a bit).

 

I don't understand how people can look at a post that says "we balance solely for DPS, HPS and DTPS" and say that they're balancing purely for PvP, when PvP is far more adversely affected by CCs, utilities and defensive cooldowns.

 

In any case I agree with the rest of your post. If they are in fact prioritizing PvP balance over PvE, they really aren't doing a good job at it. PvE requires the numbers fixes for quite a few classes (including Lightning Sorc which they didn't acknowledge) and PvP requires a DCD/utilities fix, not a damage numbers fix.

 

I am beginning to agree with all the other posts insisting that the Bioware combat team clearly balances fights around combat dummies, especially with how much Eric emphasized that they don't compare classes directly... Like... they balance "player VERSUS player" without even comparing classes???? I guess that DOES explain how the PvP balance manages to be so terrible.

Edited June 16, 2017 by EzioMessi