Icykill_ Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 aaaaaand our worst fears have been realized looking forward to another 6 months of domination in PVP by mercenaries next up: snipers keep defensive safeguards to secure 6 months of almost-as-dominant-as-mercs status "Pushes the unsub button... ? " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolixe Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 I'm sure they are making a case for themselves over there saying "the players don't know what's good for them or what they want" The only problem is.. you have some people that are very good at this game all echoing the same thing. While there are plenty of people will really bad ideas.. maybe it's you guys who bring the bad ideas on this one. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icykill_ Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 I'm sure they are making a case for themselves over there saying "the players don't know what's good for them or what they want" The only problem is.. you have some people that are very good at this game all echoing the same thing. While there are plenty of people will really bad ideas.. maybe it's you guys who bring the bad ideas on this one. Just saying. Maybe some real testing with real pvp players (and not internal Bioware office players) would show them what we mean.. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolixe Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) Maybe some real testing with real pvp players (and not internal Bioware office players) would show them what we mean.. ? Eh there is not that many of those left, but if they'd spend some time looking through names/guilds/leaderboards and talking to people in-game I'm sure they could find volunteer numbers in the hundreds that are actually pretty good at what they do. But, you know, effort. Edited June 16, 2017 by Evolixe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoopicus Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 aaaaaand our worst fears have been realized looking forward to another 6 months of domination in PVP by mercenaries next up: snipers keep defensive safeguards to secure 6 months of almost-as-dominant-as-mercs status <headdesk.gif> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tadagyt Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 They did something similar to Lightning Sorcs back in 3.x and the class has never recovered. It's actually gotten worse with every expansion or balance change and now Lightning is the worst performing spec in the game. Mark my words, this is exactly how it starts and in 6 months Mercs will be worthless trash. Don't forget hatred sins. Each time pvp people get loud about a class, you know that class will die in PVE. It's ridiculous, because now a new toon means 300 ranks. This is no class balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurj Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Look on the bright side. We won't have to figure out what all the FOTM mercs picked on reroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelz Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 I have a question, what are the target dps #'s for each class you are working off of? You never mention a number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icykill_ Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Eh there is not that many of those left, but if they'd spend some time looking through names/guilds/leaderboards and talking to people in-game I'm sure they could find volunteer numbers in the hundreds that are actually pretty good at what they do. But, you know, effort. Any dedicated veteran pvpers can show them, they don't even need to be ranked players. I'll put my hand up and test if they ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icykill_ Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Don't forget hatred sins. Each time pvp people get loud about a class, you know that class will die in PVE. It's ridiculous, because now a new toon means 300 ranks. This is no class balance. Hatred getting buffs, it's already announced. But not the poor old lightning Sorc http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=924167 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolixe Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 The Hatred buffs are also in the wrong department tbh. They are buffing the dots. Which will increase AoE potential and once again make a bigger impact on PvP than it should. Anyway, they wouldn't have to ask me and I would gladly do more than just testing. But they need to put more effort into balance than this. Just tweaking numbers isn't going to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EzioMessi Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 @Eric and @Keith: The answer to "How Class Balance Happens" is beginning to look a lot like "we parse on combat dummies and look at DPS numbers". Please, if this is just a preliminary nerf and the intention is to try and get better balance BEFORE THIS PVP SEASON ENDS, drop into this thread and comment on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu_ungar Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Thanks devs for the insights, this actually makes sense. I don't agree with others that this balancing strategy is wrong or synthetic, as it says it's based on real data. If top 100 of class X outperform top 100 of class Y in DPS/HPS and it falls into projected categories it's fine. It already includes all the buffs, dcds and utilities top players used to survive those 5 minute battles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayOfTheWarriorx Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Just to be clear, I agreed with you completely in my post. Any criticism in my post was aimed at the original post that started this thread. I'm going to go back and edit my post to clarify that. I didn't mistake your meaning, no worries at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EzioMessi Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Thanks devs for the insights, this actually makes sense. I don't agree with others that this balancing strategy is wrong or synthetic, as it says it's based on real data. If top 100 of class X outperform top 100 of class Y in DPS/HPS and it falls into projected categories it's fine. It already includes all the buffs, dcds and utilities top players used to survive those 5 minute battles. It may be based on "real" data, but it's based on incomplete data. DPS doesn't mean a thing in PvP without also accounting for TTK (time to kill) for each class. And say, Combat Sentinels may parse higher than Arsenal Mercs after their damage is nerfed, but Mercs will still vastly outperform us because they can take a full minute to kill when focused by 3 people, while a Sent can be killed within 25 seconds if even slightly focused. In that minute, Mercs get to spend a full 6 seconds reflecting damage AND healing from it, and they can heal to full health THREE times, while Sents have ONE 4 second ability that lets them mitigate anywhere near that much damage. So again, it doesn't matter whether it's "real data", because "real data" from a godd*mn target dummy has absolutely 0 meaning for any and all PvP balancing, and for the most part won't even have a bearing for PvE balancing without additional context (which is why Lightning didn't get a buff despite parsing 10-15% lower than most mid-top range specs. All this post has done is take all the players who have been saying "Bioware can't balance this game because they literally never play it" and proved them right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayOfTheWarriorx Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Dam, just noticed. The decoy nerf is an unexpected dcd nerf, not bad, I thought they might lose it completely, but seems fine. Unload got nerfed all around (dmg, crit chance, crit surge, heat cost), and critical damage from their biggest hits are down. Hopefully it's enough. It's not even close to enough. It changes very little in PVP, Mercs will still be OP in PVP. Overall, the effects of this will only be limitedly seen in PVE, on a dummy is the only place where you will see a notable difference. While mercs should have lost extra surge bonus [30 to 15%] long ago like every other class did in 4.0, it'll only make like 7% damage difference on the Heatseeker damage as an example. There was no reason to make Arsenal the only spec in the game to keep it. But, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it, the differences from this will be negligible and in PVP unperceptable over all. They'll still be OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evolixe Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 All this post has done is take all the players who have been saying "Bioware can't balance this game because they literally never play it" and proved them right. Yeah. And you can't balance a game if you don't play it. I mean I don't have to explain why that is a really.. REALLY stupid idea. Honestly.. words don't exist for how dumb that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionflash Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 ... the differences from this will be negligible and in PVP unperceptable over all. They'll still be OP. Well at least it'll have a compounding affect when teams stack mercenaries. I'm trying to calculate if the standard arsenal opening will be put above 40% heat because of blazing bolts. Also, we can't make a final conclusion until we see all the class changes, I mean, it is all relative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icykill_ Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Thanks devs for the insights, this actually makes sense. I don't agree with others that this balancing strategy is wrong or synthetic, as it says it's based on real data. If top 100 of class X outperform top 100 of class Y in DPS/HPS and it falls into projected categories it's fine. It already includes all the buffs, dcds and utilities top players used to survive those 5 minute battles. The data is only good if it's relevant and being applied and tested the right way. I could provide data that showed we had the coldest day in 15 years and say that proves we don't have global warming.. but it would be misinterpreted data that produces an incorrect assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zolxtren Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) Short answer..... it wont happen... Edited June 16, 2017 by Zolxtren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayOfTheWarriorx Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Also, we can't make a final conclusion until we see all the class changes, I mean, it is all relative. Fair point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_carton Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Well at least it'll have a compounding affect when teams stack mercenaries. I'm trying to calculate if the standard arsenal opening will be put above 40% heat because of blazing bolts. Also, we can't make a final conclusion until we see all the class changes, I mean, it is all relative. It is relative in PvP. But it has a cumulative effect in end-game PvE. If DPS of all (or most) Disciplines is nerfed, future Ops teams will all have lower DPS irrespective of their composition compared to today's Ops teams. That'll mean some teams that can clear Styrak today will not be able to do so in the future. As I understand it, all healing will also be nerfed. That is just likely to make the situation worse. Resisting the temptation of the nerf-bat, buffing DPS Disciplines into a narrow performance band, selecting skills that'll work differently between PvE and PvP, and surgically altering Utilities would give us an interesting balance we could then play-test on PTS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icykill_ Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 It is relative in PvP. But it has a cumulative effect in end-game PvE. If DPS of all (or most) Disciplines is nerfed, future Ops teams will all have lower DPS irrespective of their composition compared to today's Ops teams. That'll mean some teams that can clear Styrak today will not be able to do so in the future. As I understand it, all healing will also be nerfed. That is just likely to make the situation worse. Resisting the temptation of the nerf-bat, buffing DPS Disciplines into a narrow performance band, selecting skills that'll work differently between PvE and PvP, and surgically altering Utilities would give us an interesting balance we could then play-test on PTS. But Mike, that makes sense... 🙄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionflash Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 If DPS of all (or most) Disciplines is nerfed, future Ops teams will all have lower DPS irrespective of their composition compared to today's Ops teams. That'll mean some teams that can clear Styrak today will not be able to do so in the future. So far 1 class got buffed, and one got nerfed. As I understand it, all healing will also be nerfed. That is just likely to make the situation worse. are they? Resisting the temptation of the nerf-bat, buffing DPS Disciplines into a narrow performance band, selecting skills that'll work differently between PvE and PvP, and surgically altering Utilities would give us an interesting balance we could then play-test on PTS. Yeah, they should mess with trauma (pvp), utilities and put it on the pts. If you're right about the healing they have to say it's for pve and it's on purpose; or adjust trauma. Is the consensus that mercs/mandos got an immense dps nerf or more of a light touch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendraP Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) To me it's less a pure dps and more a defense issue. As a vigi guardian I'm currently somewhere in the middle of the dps chart. Given the relative simplicity of the spec I don't mind this location. I do mind always being the first target of the enemy team because of perceived (and admittedly actual) squishiness. Seriously nobody even bothers stopping for reflect or watches my stacks of self heals. They just spam on through. Then there are the engineering snipers who can perma slow while being invulnerable to leap (frequently to cc), roll put of range and knock me back all while I'm trying to do anything to him. To me it's this sort of utility/defense that makes them most out of whack, not their pure damage output. In the case of mercs, again, it's their ability to stay alive that is problematic. Not really a damage issue. When I tanked in pvp (I never skanked, with the migration of guard to dps specs I started dpsing) you had to kill me twice. You have to kill dps mercs 3 times. So to me it seems nerfing the dps of these specs/classes into oblivion is ignoring the actual problem. (Note, I have no idea if thst is what they are doing or not). That said, I certainly appreciate that it is realized that there is an issue and enjoy the openness in communication with the community. Edited June 16, 2017 by KendraP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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