How Class Balance Happens

[xRohanx]

This is ridiculous. Marauder or Assasin kill most of the simple mobs, while you casting Thundering Blast or Lightning Bolt. After that they run forward, while you try to kill alone 1-2 strong melee mobs, because you're weakest in group and take agro after crirtical damage. In situation, then your bubble and healing is nerfed, it’s a ****. It's a frequent case on flashpoints.

[Icykill_]

No, I don't play lightning. I see it from the other side. I also neglected that they have healing on top of everything else. That's simply too much. You need to have some area with a weakness. If you want the damage then the utility is going to have to suffer. Its true for other classes and should be true for this one. Regardless, I still see lightning as one of the more popular classes even with the nerfs they've had to suffer. I'm surprised you don't have stealth since I believe that's the only other ability you're missing. Exactly how should this class operate in your eyes? Because it doesn't sound like you'll accept even the smallest step towards balance at all. And that class is not balanced.

 

You still have no idea... seriously go and play one and then see what it's like even in lvl 70 regs... you dont even need to go into ranked to see.

Im interested in what classes you actually play, what lvl are they, how long have you pvpd with them, do you play ranked and what gear lvl do you have.

 

I've mained a lighting Sorc since launch, I've played over 12000 hours of pvp and have 89 toons and most of those have been lvld exclusively in pvp. I play every class and while I may not be a pvp God or top tier on some of them, I do understand all the classes and how to play them. I know the class weaknesses and strengths as well as my own.

The 3 classes I like the most and play the best are Lightning Sorc, Fury Mara and Arsenal Merc (which I've put on the shelf while it's FOTM OP). I would consider myself in the top 5% of lightning Sorc pvpers who still play the game and I would consider myself in the top 10% of Fury Maras. All the other classes would be in the top 20-30%, except PTs (top 50%).

Lightning Sorcs are considered a Hybrid utility class or that's what the Devs have made them with each consecutive nerf. I think in the whole time I've played the class it's only ever been FOTM once and that lasted about 6 weeks and it was nerfed back hard. They are now in the worst place they've ever been in since launch. They do jack all damage and with the healing nerfs they are sitting ducks to any player who is competent.

While ever they are classified as a utility spec they will have healing. Personally I wish they would remove all third party off healing and tanking in the game. If you are dps spec then you can't heal others, if you are a dps you can't mitigate damage like a tank for others.

Any lightning Sorcs you see doing good damage are because they are left alone to free cast all match and because the of the poor quality of their opposition.

All I can say is if you are having issues with lightning Sorcs then they are either top tier Sorcs you are playing, in which case its skill beating unless you are a top tier player too. Regardless it sound like you need to practice some more and build your own skills up. If casual Sorc players are beating you in a 1v1 then it's you, not the class.

What has helped me over the years to get better is to go play anclass that might be beating me. That way you can see how other players beat them from first hand experience. It is a good way to learn their strengths and weaknesses. It can also teach you new skills that you can use on your other class. ie, lots of melee centric players who don't play ranged may not know how or when to LoS. But once you've learned to LoS on a Sorc you can often apply that to your melee in certain circumstances instead of just dying from pounding away.

[Thruine]

I've never play a 1v1 match. This to me is like dummy parse. So what? Its not going to happen out in the world so what does it matter. Probably reinforce my ideas about them. Lightning is strong, too strong, especially if its part of a group. The most powerful things in PvP is mobility. Roots give it to you. Stuns give it to you. Their push back gives it. And you have to be able to take a hit or two which shields and healing give. Looking at some other classes and we see just how many are missing all the things lightning brings just on its own. Maybe sage has them (I have played around with one). You add two or three to a match and its too annoying for words. Its not their damage. Its their partners damage. If their damage was even higher, they wouldn't need partners.

 

I personally wished some game would have rank mean you play against your own so this balance question wouldn't be so big. There's no way to fix lightning in PvP (where it is too powerful) and PvE (which I have no idea since mine isn't even 30) because most likely you'll destroy one or the other. But if they are going have every utility known (except stealth of course) then I don't see how damage can be justified. I would never ask for a nerf. I mean, if its so bad then I'd just play one myself. That's always been my solution for whining about balance issues. I have always still played what I liked regardless if they were OP or nerfed or hated or whatever. If they get nerfed more, I'll be okay with that just fine. I don't believe it will change their population. Just more forum posts.

 

I'm sure there's some class everyone thinks is out of wack. No game I've ever PvP in has had balance because it can't exist unless everything is the same. This fallacy that one class may function best against this one but weak to that one (the old rock paper theory) is also a falsehood. I accept this but if its my choice I'd still nerf lightning some more

[Icykill_]

I've never play a 1v1 match. This to me is like dummy parse. So what? Its not going to happen out in the world so what does it matter. Probably reinforce my ideas about them. Lightning is strong, too strong, especially if its part of a group. The most powerful things in PvP is mobility. Roots give it to you. Stuns give it to you. Their push back gives it. And you have to be able to take a hit or two which shields and healing give. Looking at some other classes and we see just how many are missing all the things lightning brings just on its own. Maybe sage has them (I have played around with one). You add two or three to a match and its too annoying for words. Its not their damage. Its their partners damage. If their damage was even higher, they wouldn't need partners.

 

I personally wished some game would have rank mean you play against your own so this balance question wouldn't be so big. There's no way to fix lightning in PvP (where it is too powerful) and PvE (which I have no idea since mine isn't even 30) because most likely you'll destroy one or the other. But if they are going have every utility known (except stealth of course) then I don't see how damage can be justified. I would never ask for a nerf. I mean, if its so bad then I'd just play one myself. That's always been my solution for whining about balance issues. I have always still played what I liked regardless if they were OP or nerfed or hated or whatever. If they get nerfed more, I'll be okay with that just fine. I don't believe it will change their population. Just more forum posts.

 

I'm sure there's some class everyone thinks is out of wack. No game I've ever PvP in has had balance because it can't exist unless everything is the same. This fallacy that one class may function best against this one but weak to that one (the old rock paper theory) is also a falsehood. I accept this but if its my choice I'd still nerf lightning some more

This statement about Lightning Sorcs being too powerful only proves my point There is no convincing you that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

"There's no way to fix lightning in PvP (where it is too powerful)" ... OMG this statement is ridiculous

 

I'm not going to keep arguing with you as you just don't seem to want to understand.

The only way you will understand is to roll a Sorc and try... it might make you a better player 😉

Edited July 22, 2017 by Icykill_

[Stellarcrusade]

Barrier lasts 8 seconds and it takes longer than 2 seconds for enemy players to reach you from the spawn zone.

 

If you aren't lasting 10 seconds in arenas with your lightning sorcs, it's likely because you aren't clicking all your abilities.

 

You don't know how to make a case without being overtly hyperbolic. Everything exists in an exaggerated reality in order to make your points seem valid.

 

The point remains the same, even if you try to ignore it, you cannot deny it. 1.) if you try to use barrier likely you cannot because you are netted, 2.) if you try to phase walk likely they know right where you are because you cannot even lay phase until a little after the war starts (dumb). And you'd be suprised how fast into a war people are on top of the sorc.....seriously try it. Go ranked dps sorc, but before you do, go through your house and remove all the rope nuces, guns, cyanide pills, poisonous chemicals, and kitchen forks because in a few matches you'll be tempted to use one of those things on yourself.

[Lionflash]

The point remains the same, even if you try to ignore it, you cannot deny it. 1.) if you try to use barrier likely you cannot because you are netted, 2.) if you try to phase walk likely they know right where you are because you cannot even lay phase until a little after the war starts (dumb). And you'd be suprised how fast into a war people are on top of the sorc.....seriously try it. Go ranked dps sorc, but before you do, go through your house and remove all the rope nuces, guns, cyanide pills, poisonous chemicals, and kitchen forks because in a few matches you'll be tempted to use one of those things on yourself.

 

what utilities do you use for ranked?

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I've never play a 1v1 match. This to me is like dummy parse. So what? Its not going to happen out in the world so what does it matter. Probably reinforce my ideas about them. Lightning is strong, too strong, especially if its part of a group. The most powerful things in PvP is mobility. Roots give it to you. Stuns give it to you. Their push back gives it. And you have to be able to take a hit or two which shields and healing give. Looking at some other classes and we see just how many are missing all the things lightning brings just on its own. Maybe sage has them (I have played around with one). You add two or three to a match and its too annoying for words. Its not their damage. Its their partners damage. If their damage was even higher, they wouldn't need partners.

 

I personally wished some game would have rank mean you play against your own so this balance question wouldn't be so big. There's no way to fix lightning in PvP (where it is too powerful) and PvE (which I have no idea since mine isn't even 30) because most likely you'll destroy one or the other. But if they are going have every utility known (except stealth of course) then I don't see how damage can be justified. I would never ask for a nerf. I mean, if its so bad then I'd just play one myself. That's always been my solution for whining about balance issues. I have always still played what I liked regardless if they were OP or nerfed or hated or whatever. If they get nerfed more, I'll be okay with that just fine. I don't believe it will change their population. Just more forum posts.

 

I'm sure there's some class everyone thinks is out of wack. No game I've ever PvP in has had balance because it can't exist unless everything is the same. This fallacy that one class may function best against this one but weak to that one (the old rock paper theory) is also a falsehood. I accept this but if its my choice I'd still nerf lightning some more

 

They're not asking for Top Tier DPS, most people know that that just can't be because than you would be right. Lightning can't meet certain DPS checks in harder content and so in that regard they do need a DPS buff that will allow them to meet the minimum DPS checks required for the content. That's a perfectly reasonable request and cannot be justified that they can't meet those checks.

 

As far as PVP is concerned, if they had more stay power, if they have better survivability a direct result of that alone would increase their DPS potentials [Can't DPS when you are dead]. They could give lighting Operative DPS and in PVP they would still underperform because they wouldn't have the opportunity to use it to it's advantage. Lightning is capable of putting out some decent damage in PVP, you do see it on occassion, but a class must be considered on how it will perform at all skill levels, not just the best of the best, what they're not all that decent at is staying on group level for very long instead of 6 feet under it.

 

It's understandable that thier DPS is lower than other many other rDPS specs, they do come with a great amount of utility and support and are extremely mobile, off heals, self heals, mutliple stun breakers, yada yada yada, but their is a difference between lower than others and unable to meet DPS checks.

 

Every single DPS spec in the game should and must be able to meet any DPS check in the game and be viable in any area of the game. They don't have to be the best at it, but they must be viable in the hands of someone who knows how to play the class.

 

You can argue the numbers, but what you can't argue is that DPS sorcs go down faster than the head cheerleader on prom night.

Edited July 21, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[BraverDre]

#BUFFSORCS Bioware listen to people who play this class. We pay for sub and leave our feedback here.Please Read it!!!

 

We, Madness sorc asking you for a slight dps buff.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9333043 - this is how balance happens. Parses are very important. FIX DEATHMARK AND GIVE US A SLIGHT DPS BUFF!!

[Kirtastropohe]

As we live through what's been done through 5.5, and looking ahead to what is intended for 5.6.... I don't see how they can think things are going to be balanced or in a good place. Look at this game right now and what it will be following 5.6, especially from a PvP perspective....

 

Off the top of my head...

• Some Melee dps classes have and will be taking a big hit, especially shadows, and the removal of the DR when stunned utility is a slap in the face.
  
• Mercs and commandos will still be OP with their survivability.
  
• Skank Tanks will still be way too prevalent
  
• In fact, given the nerfs to DPS, those with broken survivability will be even more at an advantage.
  
• For the most part, ranged will still be ruling the day given the objectives for most WZs plus the evasiveness, knock back, and kiting abilities they have.
  

 

I hate to be so negative, but I tried giving the benefit of the doubt and I have not been pleased, at all, with what the state of PvP is, and seeing what the solutions are going to be, I have little faith it will be better.

[Foambreaker]

Boy did this turn out to be a bad joke.

[TUXs]

Boy did this turn out to be a bad joke.

No no no...not yet...they're still balancing things. We have utilities to go through still, we're only half way through the whole balancing thing. Bioware has successfully spent a full freaking year on nerfs and CXP tweaks...so much time and effort was wasted that they only have 2 freaking Ops bosses done since last freaking year!!! TWO!!!

[TrixxieTriss]

Boy did this turn out to be a bad joke.

 

Yes, now we have snipers that are tanks and tanks that are DPS. Sorc dps is so bad now they can’t do anything in pvp and Sorc healers still rule the roost.

 

If only it was a bad joke and not the reality of the situation

[TrixxieTriss]

As we live through what's been done through 5.5, and looking ahead to what is intended for 5.6.... I don't see how they can think things are going to be balanced or in a good place. Look at this game right now and what it will be following 5.6, especially from a PvP perspective....

 

Off the top of my head...

• Some Melee dps classes have and will be taking a big hit, especially shadows, and the removal of the DR when stunned utility is a slap in the face.
  
• Mercs and commandos will still be OP with their survivability.
  
• Skank Tanks will still be way too prevalent
  
• In fact, given the nerfs to DPS, those with broken survivability will be even more at an advantage.
  
• For the most part, ranged will still be ruling the day given the objectives for most WZs plus the evasiveness, knock back, and kiting abilities they have.
  

 

I hate to be so negative, but I tried giving the benefit of the doubt and I have not been pleased, at all, with what the state of PvP is, and seeing what the solutions are going to be, I have little faith it will be better.

 

Don’t forget snipers who are more tank like than proper tanks. They are now more OP than Mercs when discussing survivability.

[LordArtemis]

It was an informative post. It also clearly demonstrates the severe flaw in the entire balancing method.

 

The fact that it is absolutely impossible to achieve balance based on the method described.

[supertimtaf]

It was an informative post. It also clearly demonstrates the severe flaw in the entire balancing method.

 

The fact that it is absolutely impossible to achieve balance based on the method described.

 

We all know this, but no matter how many time we say that, it won't change a thing on BW's side.

As long as they're according more importance to their own interpretation of "fictional" data rather than playing the game seriously and listening to their players, this won't change. Though, I hope we will soon have another post from the devs explaining in more details why did they choose to make some things worse (or no changes at all) in the utility balance.

 

Even if they're not right in their methods, the least they can do is explain to us the full reasoning of their actions, so we can engage in a real discussion, from players to "players"/developpers, in order to fix the numerous issues that are going since 5.0 was released (or even before !).