How Class Balance Happens

[fifteendollers]

When you get to the higher levels of skill, players will know when they will have to move and can plan abilities around that so movement doesn't really effect ranged burst classes very much.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even the highest skilled players need to remain still to cast abilities don't they?

[Dhurwin]

I would urge you consider Lightning to be semi burst/sustained. Not only does it have a slightly longer ramp up time than Marksman or Arsenal, but once it does gets going it could never hope to hit as hard as either of those specs because it hits for less just more often. The literal definition of sustain. And yet it is also capable of 40k with three GCDs, which is moderate burst. We will never hit as hard as the other classes but we could do with some loving.

 

I would also urge you to leave my heal spec the **** alone. Unless you wanna give it more goodies. That i will allow.

 

As far as the hint goes, Arsenal could use a little more dps, but needs its cooldowns tuned down. Does this mean sorc healing will receive a slight buff? Cause you just said you're not touching cd's.

 

And to everyone mentioning how kiting doesn't happen, I ask you this - do any of you remember how insanely EASY it was to kite back in 1.0-2.0? People complained, melee got some buffs, people complained again, ranged got some buffs. Back and forth, etc. Now ranged can do **** on the move, and every melee has a leap, a roll or speed boost (or both), several different roots/ slows, several different abilities that cause immunity to/ purge movement impairing effects. So ya kiting is slightly more difficult these days, which considering that fact, it kinda makes a little sense why they'd turn mercs and snipers into tanks - if ranged can't kite, it needs to take a hit. Maybe they're testing something out (kinda like uncleansable DoTs if anyone remembers a time when you could cleanse them) and once they find a good balance for those classes we'll see something similar on sorcs. Pls. Gimme tank buffs. Even though you said you're not touching utilities. Plz.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Dhurwin

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

You'll have to explain why my post is a troll post, otherwise I'll just assume you're trolling.

 

But to save you the time, I know you have no justification for calling my post a troll post, and you are indeed a troll.

 

You may find my explanation in the responses of others posters who like me could not contend the credibility of such an asinine demonstration of unreality.

 

If you needed an explanation, you wouldn't understand it even if given.

 

If you find one person that agrees with your post and it's points as stated, I will be utterly shocked.

 

I won't be holding my breath.

Edited June 16, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[fifteendollers]

You may find my explanation in the responses of others posters who like me could not contend the credibility of such an asinine demonstration of unreality.

 

If you find one person that agrees with your post and it's points as stated, I will be utterly shocked.

 

I won't be holding my breath.

 

If you cant discuss your point of view in a discussion thread I'll have to assume that you don't have one. If you don't have a point of view, you are a troll.

[Kurj]

It's easy to understand, just run away from a melee class with no cooldowns or snares or anything and see how long you last with him following you smashing your face in.

 

That has nothing to do with a 4-meter melee range. It has to do with having your cool-downs blown, which is something all classes face. We all get killed when that happens, ranged or melee.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

If you cant discuss your point of view in a discussion thread I'll have to assume that you don't have one. If you don't have a point of view, you are a troll.

 

I would explain but I'm still looking for people who agree with the points you expressed in your original post and those who don't have a clue as to what universe you are speaking of where the laws of physics apply as you are saying they do.

 

I take solace in the knowledge that there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of seeing the things you are proposing ever even being considered let alone put into effect.

Edited June 16, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[mike_carton]

Anyway, I could ramble on for hours about how I suddenly understand but massively disagree with your way of doing "class balance" It won't have any effect.

 

This and "Dispirited" capture where my mind is at right now.

I just want to say one thing though.. when was the last time you guys were actually.. ACTUALLY happy with the class balance in the game? Because I can't personally think of any point in time it was all well-done.

 

Good question. Was there any patch level in the game's history when the philosophy laid out here actually was close to being achieved? When actually was this class-balance philosophy decided upon anyway? Was it created recently in reaction to the 5.x situation and the resultant outcry? Or has this philosophy been in place and been the guiding principle since the beginning?

[fifteendollers]

That has nothing to do with a 4-meter melee range. It has to do with having your cool-downs blown, which is something all classes face. We all get killed when that happens, ranged or melee.

 

Allow me to clarify. Run from a melee class who has just used his gap closer on you and is beating your head in, without using any of your own cooldowns or inhibiting his mobility in any way. You will never get out of his melee range. Notice the distance you get from the melee class while he is still bashing your head in.

 

Now do that while trying to cast an ability on him. You will never enough distance from the melee target to get off a single cast without being attacked, stunned or interrupted, unless you use a cooldown. You will be using cooldowns just to get out of melee range, and he will just be closing the gap by simply running towards you while you stop to cast. If you have to use a cooldown everytime you want to get out of melee range, something is wrong.

[fifteendollers]

I would explain but I'm still looking for people who agree with the points you expressed in your original post and those who don't have a clue as to what universe you are speaking of where the laws of physics apply as you are saying they do.

 

I take solace in the knowledge that there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of seeing the things you are proposing ever even being considered let alone put into effect.

 

So you don't have a point of view, I know.

 

You'd be wrong about my proposals never being considered. The 4 meter melee range was exactly why Bioware started adding snares to casted abilities like Tracer Missile.

[stoopicus]

I would explain but I'm still looking for people who agree with the points you expressed in your original post and those who don't have a clue as to what universe you are speaking of where the laws of physics apply as you are saying they do.

 

I take solace in the knowledge that there is absolutely no chance whatsoever of seeing the things you are proposing ever even being considered let alone put into effect.

 

The charitable explanation here is he is a bad and can't manage to kite (which lots of people seem to do just fine) due to severe l2p issues. People kite melee classes all the time.

 

But I'm going with your less charitable but more likely first guess, he's just trolling. Check other threads in the PvP section.

 

Literally no one is going to agree with his presumption that melee simply has too much range, because it's absurd.

Edited June 16, 2017 by stoopicus

[Evolixe]

This and "Dispirited" capture where my mind is at right now.

 

Good question. Was there any patch level in the game's history when the philosophy laid out here actually was close to being achieved? When actually was this class-balance philosophy decided upon anyway? Was it created recently in reaction to the 5.x situation and the resultant outcry? Or has this philosophy been in place and been the guiding principle since the beginning?

 

I'm glad me and Hotwired managed to inspire you. Just a few heads at Bioware desks left to go.

[fifteendollers]

The charitable explanation here is he is a bad and can't manage to kite (which lots of people seem to do just fine) due to severe l2p issues. People kite melee classes all the time.

 

But I'm going with your less charitable but more likely first guess, he's just trolling.

 

Literally no one is going to agree with his presumption that melee simply has too much range, because it's absurd.

 

Again, kiting implies you are keeping distance while DPSing, not running while doing no damage at all. I know you melee have such a hard time keeping up with fleeing range, but it's ok, they wont be doing any meaningful damage to you while they're fleeing.

Edited June 16, 2017 by fifteendollers

[MandFlurry]

Allow me to clarify. Run from a melee class who has just used his gap closer on you and is beating your head in, without using any of your own cooldowns or inhibiting his mobility in any way. You will never get out of his melee range. Notice the distance you get from the melee class while he is still bashing your head in.

 

Now do that while trying to cast an ability on him. You will never enough distance from the melee target to get off a single cast without being attacked, stunned or interrupted, unless you use a cool down. You will be using cool downs just to get out of melee range, and he will just be closing the gap by simply running towards you while you stop to cast. If you have to use a cool down everytime you want to get out of melee range, something is wrong.

 

I've always felt that there should have been better defensive/ offensive abilities to either gain distance and close in. Of course the Commando and Merc Classes have an ability of Jetting us backwards from a melee dealer and the Vanguard have the Cable with a hook to snag a target that is Ranged, though we also have 1 other defensive/ offensive ability after that, it would be nice to have something else to make combat that much more meaningful in my opinion

 

Also Pyroteks in a Military RL stance is not really Melee like some developers might think, but it IS Burst damage all across the board and Ranged with Melee abilities.

Edited June 16, 2017 by MandFlurry

[mike_carton]

I think in this thread it would be very advantageous for us to not squabble with one another even if we disagree and leave this string purely as a response to this official release and let everyone say their peace regarding it without concern for what others may think of their opinions.

 

Edits in this color.

 

I don't always agree with what you say ("The Republic is the Galaxy's future!") but I wholeheartedly endorse this. Squabbling amongst ourselves over trifling differences will obscure the fact that the philosophy laid out here (*) is astonishingly inadequate to meet the challenges of the existing class imbalances. In fact, I don't even see (*) an acknowledgement that class balance means different things in PvP and PvE. It is in all of our collective interest as you say to respond to the original post with civility, rational argument and rhetoric, original ideas and support for others' ideas and arguments we like.

 

(*) in the original post that started this thread

Edited June 16, 2017 by mike_carton

[kakarlosed]

Hey folks,

 

Over the next few weeks, as you know, it is our plan to give you specifics on upcoming Class/Discipline changes. One things that we have never done before is really get down in the trenches and explain how we balance Classes. With our continued move towards more transparency, we really wanted to lift the hood and provide as much context as possible for those changes. Below you will find an elaborate breakdown from our combat team on not only how they balance Classes, but why. I highly recommend you read the entire post (I know it’s long!). For the non-reader among you…

 

TLDR – We do not balance Disciplines against each other directly. Balance is based on target values which are determined by what type of damage dealer you are; ranged, melee, burst, sustained, etc.

 

Here is the detailed breakdown from the combat team:

 

Only modifications to deceive the players, because they did nothing in the end, because these changes in dmg were minimal and what is ending with PvP in the game are the utilities of some classes. Congratulations for not working so well! #GIANTFACEPALM

[AjentWashington]

Virulence a Quasi-Burst spec?!?!

 

Considering its highest burst comes after 3 whole GCD's worth of setup (Corrosive Dart, Corrosive Grenade, and Weakening Blast), I don't understand how its classified as this. IO is burstier than Virulence and its put as sustained.I also disagree with the 10% spread between top and bottom dps because its too large and causes certain specs to vastly outperform others, especially when survivability and the ways certain classes' defensives work are not taken into account.

[fifteendollers]

Virulence a Quasi-Burst spec?!?!

 

Considering its highest burst comes after 3 whole GCD's worth of setup (Corrosive Dart, Corrosive Grenade, and Weakening Blast), I don't understand how its classified as this. IO is burstier than Virulence and its put as sustained.I also disagree with the 10% spread between top and bottom dps because its too large and causes certain specs to vastly outperform others, especially when survivability and the ways certain classes' defensives work are not taken into account.

 

It's possible Bioware have defined the specs as they have in theory without them actually living up to those definitions in practice. If Bioware has defined Virulence as a Quasi-burst spec and it isn't a Quasi-burst spec in practice, that might just be one of the areas Bioware would seek to improve.

Edited June 16, 2017 by fifteendollers

[MandFlurry]

Only modifications to deceive the players, because they did nothing in the end, because these changes in dmg were minimal and what is ending with PvP in the game are the utilities of some classes. Congratulations for not working so well! #GIANTFACEPALM

 

Unless, you have something constructive to add, you mine as well as not say it at all, or this thread will just get canned. What i said in a past post was just Real life /sarcasm. Big difference.

[MandFlurry]

It's possible Bioware have defined the specs as they have in theory without them actually living up to those definitions in practice. If Bioware has defined Virulence as a Quasi-burst spec and it isn't a Quiasi-burst spec in practice, that might just be one of the areas Bioware would seek to improve.

 

That would be very true heheh.

[Ryne]

Right. So there's no actual class balance coming in the class balance patch. Good to know. Account cancelled.

[cultofcargo]

+- 10% is too much

[Ramalina]

That is exactly what they aren't doing and that is also exactly what the problem is.

It's why this game has never seen, and under this mindset never will achieve, class balance.

 

It a perfectly sound class balancing scheme.**

 

 

** Assuming you actually hit the target DPS spread and assuming that the only content for which you care about "reasonable" class balance is HM Ops.

 

To be fair, success within those parameters will also likely give you decent balance in SM Ops, Flashpoints, and disorganized WZ's.

 

 

It's balance on the order of an old washing machine that wobbles, clunks, and sounds ready to fly into a hundred pieces, but still gets the clothes clean. Just don't try to salvage the bearings and try to use them in a demanding application.

 

I can't remember SWTOR ever having balance better than the crude amount needed for, "It's ok, we know the fights so as long as they know the class and are geared we can bring 'em to HM Dread Palace."

 

 

For demanding content, that is to say NiM ops and organized PvP, you're right on target with the how of their balancing scheme explaining the why of SWTOR never yet having had really fine tuned balance in the past and presumably not having any prospect of fine tuned balance in the future.

 

Probably worth mentioning though, that MMORPGs with mechanics similar to SWTOR are notoriously difficult to balance across diverse content types, and if you don't have a team that can engage in continuously tinkering with things then anything more than crude balance is probably a pipe dream in any case.

[Darthanimus]

DoTs miss all the time, so the basic premise of the class balancing model is rather shaky.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I don't always agree with what you say ("The Republic is the Galaxy's future!") but I wholeheartedly endorse this. Squabbling amongst ourselves over trifling differences will obscure the fact that the philosophy laid out here is astonishingly inadequate to meet the challenges of the existing class imbalances. In fact, I don't even see an acknowledgement that class balance means different things in PvP and PvE. It is in all of our collective interest to respond to the original post with civility, rational argument and rhetoric, original ideas and support for others' ideas and arguments we like.

 

I fear my meager attempt at reason failed miserably heh, I figured it would, I know better heh but I figured it was worth a shot!

 

Class balance should mean different things in PVE and PVP, without some sort of "build"/utility seperation the efforts made to balance one class in one form of play with the effects on the other mode of play [PVE/PVP] that might be wholly inconsistent with it's circumstance in the other mode of play.

 

Someone used a good example of illustrating this when they used Marksmen as an example, while it's DPS output in PVE might be lackluster [to say the least], it is notably stronger in PVP. So how do you address DPS considerations of one class when it's needs in one mode of play are not wanting in the other mode of play?

 

I applaud the efforts at communication being made by the devs/keith, I don't want to lose sight of their efforts in that regard, they have made great strides at communication and I applaud them. I think they would be better served if they would listen first and than make changes based upon what the consensus of players is expressing that way they would always be working with the wants/needs of their consumers. I'm not saying they should just give us whatever we want. But when so many voices are speaking out in one general direction and than the response finds them being lead in a whole different direction than that what they were hoping for, it makes one wonder if the communication from the devs is more dictate that responsive.

 

They didn't listen to the concerns of the players who were adamantly against many of the changes that were released before 5.0 actually dropped. And many of those concerns were simply ignored, and that resulted not only in an unhappy player base, but a massive exodus of players from the game.

 

Those who do not learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them.

Edited June 16, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[EzMaCx]

Why even put a forum up asking for our feedback on class changes if you're going to ignore it and do a simple stat nerf or buff.... PT tanks for example are one of the most squishy classes in pvp... explain this. Edited June 16, 2017 by EzMaCx