Nulla-Gaudia Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 What is going to happen with unused Set Tokens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
force_fortytwo Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Sareeph, the point is: They won't have made that up after binding the Comms to character, the plans to put a credit cap on the conversion were already decided when Eric uttered what he did. So, why not just be plain about this? Would have added A LOT of transparency to the issue. Besides, a possible alternative way to deal with this was not open to everybody: The WZ Comm grants were BoL, but I could not put a single one of them into my Legacy storage. So, maybe there would've been a better way to conduct this, singlehandedly with the first message on these forums: 1. Inform people that Crystals and Comms will be taken out of the game with 5.0 and that in preparation of this, WZ comm grants will be bound to character and cannot be bought anymore after an upcoming maintenance. Furthermore, tell people that when 5.0 kicks in all the remaining Comms and Crystals will be converted to credits (Rates and conversion Cap per character yet to be determined), and recommend players to use the WZ Comm Grants to transfer WZ Comms between characters as long as they are still BoL, giving people at least one week to act accordingly before finally making the change via maintenance. These tiny little additions to Eric's first post (I've put them in orange, the most important information in red) would have made it all transparent and prevented most of the *****torm. Because, if I learnt that stuff is gonna be converted and there'll be a per-character cap for the conversion, I'd see to it that my stuff is spread as evenly as possible. The way Eric did it was way too ambiguous to draw valid conclusions before things happened. And having one day is just too little time to react, since not everyone on this game plays every single day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fabsus Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) I think, that my posting will be ignored, but i'm divided between being pissed off and don't care about the comms-change. 10/24/2016 5pm it was announced, that the pvp comms will be bop and not tradeable through legaxy anymore, with the next patch on 10/25/2016 2pm. so we had 21hours to complete this task. you didn't said, what happens to the comms, that we could be prepared. not everybody is loggin in every day, especially not on monday, because there you can't do any conquest after work. 10/25/2016 2pm the server gone offline, to install the patch. 11/01/2016 6:30pm you gave us the information what happens with crystals and pvp comms in detail. i'm sorry, but this is not acceptable. so back to my opening, i'm pissed of this action, but on the other side it just shows, that you don't care about the matters of the players. i really think, that you need to apologize and explain, why it was necessary to do that change that fast. Edited November 3, 2016 by fabsus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafiknoll Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) So I ask myself, <Quotes> Now why would Eric say to move Coms around if I had a stockpile and customer service couldn't help after Tuesday? [The whole point of this quote are the quotes it has in there, so whoever reads this might wanna read the origin if he isn't exactly following] Hehe, don't you see what I am saying here? Having to dig around to find all necessary info and piece it up ISN'T considered a clear and simple way to convey a message. You didn't even place them in the order they are written, and you took half sentences and placed them together (the 1st half of the "merged" statement you have created is horrible work, if Eric would have said all these words in that context I would get suspicious, but he didn't). Not to mention that you cut of statements that make an opposite point ("please ensure they are on the character you want them to be on before Tuesday’s maintenance"), as many before me pointed out. And once more you ignore a point I repeat every time when I respond to you. Here is a quote in which I already point out that you ignored it and ask you for a response: Now, as far the last thing you said, what part of "didn't even have time to log in once between the notice and the patch" didn't you understand? there are only so many ways to understand this statement. Again you compare NEARLY similar statements and make them one: "And yes, there was time to think, a couple minuteswould have sufficed"[you] != "didn't even have time to log in once between the notice and the patch" And one last thing: Lets assume now that you are right and the signs were always there about us having to divide the credits. I recall you said something about knowing what you talk about because such things are actually your real life's expertise (This thread is very long and therefore I couldn't find your post mentioning that, so if I mistook you for someone else or anything, I apologize and ignore the below). In that case let me ask you something: Why do you get paid for your job? Because it is something not everyone can do for himself. This is why all jobs exist. No one would be able to make a living of something everyone can do for himself, because no one would pay him to do so. So the fact you earn your living for being able to decide what is best for a company or a person, means that without you the company or person would make mistakes, not due to inefficiency, laziness or stupidity, but simply because they never "specced" the subject. Now, are you implying all players should have hired advisers such as yourself to know what to do with their commendation and avoid losing credits? It is rather impressive that you could advise yourself the right course of action, since after all this is your field of expertise, but can you blame others for choosing to specialize in any other real life job and therefore not be experts and make the wrong choice? I think any moderate 14+ years old (and sometimes even less) should have sufficient logical skills to play thing game and avoid getting occasionally screwed. Expertise in whatever-exactly-you-do should NOT be a requirement, and as far as I see here, many people here (and at least some must be adults) have made the "mistake" and are gonna lose for it. Can you still think bioware was fair, when making a statement which DID confuse people and DID make them make wrong choices, simply because your expertise saved you? EDIT: found your incriminating post: 4 I stepped back and looked at other clues you don't cover here which I did post earlier before you joined the argument but other are so quick to shrug off because it's much easier to blame everyone but oneself. You are wrong though, I do feel for the ones who lost and my intention as stated multiple times in this thread for posting was to show people why they should take a moment for thought instead of following knee-jerk reactions. This is what I do for a living. Think things through for the company that employs me. All I have received here is self righteous contempt. Egotistical, to think about something before I react and encourage others to do so? Hardly. And yes, there was time to think, a couple minutes would have sufficed. You call it simple and plain and refer to it as "CLUES"? That's a bit arrogant, Sherlock Holmes, if not completely shooting yourself in the leg, don't you think? [Also marked the red lines to again emphasize to things: 1. As an expert in the field you aren't in place to demand from other people to think as fast as you, or get to the right conclusions. 2. Stop ignoring the people who didn't have time to log in!!! Edited November 3, 2016 by Rafiknoll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow_ Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 I'm trying to decide if sareeph is trolling, delusional, or just a bioware employee. Whatever the case may be we should stop letting him derail this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keimanna Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Yes, in the Same Post I have also stated that I do feel for those who lost out due to not logging in to get rid of stockpiles. My posts have been for those that purposely stockpiled after the message came out. I have no idea why you have no sympathy for people (mistakenly or not) doing what they felt they were SUPPOSED to do given Eric's post. As a sub, it's your obligation to do what's best for your time and money investment and that's all everyone was trying to do - but again, you don't care. So let's just focus on the first part , something we all agree on. How is it okay to give 24 hours, on the forums no less (not in game, not by email, etc.) to basically wipe out people's earned currency? I've already learned the hard way that logging into forums is part of your "duties" as a sub to this game, or else be prepared for shenanigans with your sub. But many players do not (I don't visit forums for ANY other game btw). This STILL gets at the gist of the frustrations here - it seems very clear, without much doubt that for the PvPers who grinded out lots of comms, BW either doesn't give a flibbedy flib about them or is just inept at communication/customer service. So there are subs out there who logged in and saw months of work just evaporate and without even a (credible) option to get compensation. Even if everything else you try to defend is true, you have to concede this basic point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow_ Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) (mistakenly or not) This is precisely what makes the arrogant novellas he is posting in this thread completely irrelevant. Whatever the "correct" interpretation of bioware's posts might be is 100% beside the point. There should be no need to have to interpret anything. They have zero reason not to be crystal clear about what they mean. Period. We should all stop responding to Sareeph. Edited November 3, 2016 by yellow_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DVLots Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Late question i hope will still be answered before 5.0. With your release of the conversion numbers for existing common data crystals, a bigger question becomes what will the companion gifts sold by the odessen companion gift vendor be converted to , will it be the same rate as common crystals are being converted to credits? aka 15000 credits (1 common crystal = 500 credits per your earlier post) If not what will the rate be for grade 6 companion gifts post 5.0 Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSkate Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) Well considering there are peope out there (myself included) who have over 500k warzone comms across their legacy (200k on one of my character alone), there should be some sort of compensation for having that many, not a punishment. Why? I mean this question for everyone that is upset about the conversion rate and limit. They could have just set the conversion rate to 10 credits each. That way a full stack would be 2 million credits. Would you be happier then? I mean if someone has 200k warzone comms on one character and over 500k throughout their legacy it's not like that person was doing ANYTHING with them. Be glad they are giving you 50 credits each for them. Why complain? Edited November 3, 2016 by TheSkate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keimanna Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Why? I mean if someone has 200k warzone comms on one character and over 500k throughout their legacy it's not like that person was doing ANYTHING with them. Be glad they are giving you any credits for them. So every character in you legacy is probably going to instantly be 2 million credits richer. Why complain? We were saving them up for gearing in 5.0 since existing gear would be obsolete and our current chars were fully geared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafiknoll Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 (edited) Why? I mean this question for everyone that is upset about the conversion rate and limit. They could have just set the conversion rate to 10 credits each. That way a full stack would be 2 million credits. Would you be happier then? ... Why complain? And beside Kelmanna's excellent answer, if the conversion rate was 10 credits people would complain. It would look quite the same as we already read through this post: "*** do they make a conversion of a month's hard work into credits gained in 2h of farming?". In fact, thinking how much time is required to gain 200k warzone comms, even with the most ideal situation which is: always win, 4+ MVPs, 8+ medals (lets assume each wz grants 150 that way), do only dailies, meaning each 3 warzones grant additional 600 comms for both dailies, and each 8 grant 900 for the weekly. All this will result in 4300 comms with the minimal number of warzones, without "wasted" warzones such as losses, and warzones without daily and weekly: So, the least warzones required to finish a weekly are 8 wins. Lets not play any warzone without a daily, which requires 3 wins per day (both dailies), so once we finished the weekly and the extra daily in the 3rd day: We played 9 games, worth (assuming very high reward was granted): 150x9 = 1,350 We won one weekly reward worth: 900. We won 3 dailies (both dailies) worth 3x600 = 1800 Total = 1350+900=1800 = 4050comms / 9 warzones, Max possible reward. If we assume we play only 8 games and not finish the final daily: number of warzones is reduced by 1, rewards are reduced by 300 of the daily and 150 of the warzone itself, resulting in: 3600 comms / 8 warzones. Both given results are a ratio of 450 comms per warzone, this is again only assuming all warzones were won, when holding a daily and a weekly, and yielded a huge reward of 150 commendations (for comparison, winning with 16 medals and 1 vote grants only 141 comms. Good luck doing that all the times, considering all random factors of the group). How many ideal warzones does one need to get 200k commendations then? 200k/450 = 444.4444 (444 ideal warzones will grant 199'980 comms, leaving one normal warzone to finish the job). This is the lowest possible number of warzones required to get 200k, and that is, again, in an impossibly ideal situation. How much time do 445 warzones take? Well, assuming an average warzone duration ( of arenas of 2:0 on the one hand, and Novare stalemates on the other hand) is 7 mins, then 445 warzone will take 445x7=3115 mins which are 51h55m. But lets keep exaggarating and say each warzone only takes 5 mins, it will lead us to 445x5=2225 mins which are "only" 37h5m. How much is this time required for harvesting 200k warzone commendations worth if spent farming heroics instead of PVPing? Since 1h of farming in a group is worth around 1mil credits, it means that: If we take the ridiculously impossibly short time required to get 200k (51h55m): we get nearly 52mil credits. If we take the insanely impossibly short time (37h5m): We get "only" slightly more than 37mil credits. So, considering that even without the cap, the conversion rate grants us only 10 mil, which is more than 5 times less than the lowest possible worth of the time it takes to gather them, and is nearly 4 times less than worth the absolutely impossible time it might have taken with miracles (Won't annoy you with more math but even if all warzone would take 2 mins, it would take 14h50m to gather 200k. A time worth nearly 15 mil in credits, even that is more than the 10mil that the conversion grants). Please don't forget that even the highest amount of time which I calculated is 99% impossible and very unlikely to ever happen to anyone (Please go ahead and gain 150 comms in 445 warzone, never lose and only on daily basis, since each warzone done without a daily will reduce the comms/warzone ratio, resulting in the need for more warzones, taking even more time) and this is only the time in the warzone itself, not the gaming time in total. So the conversion rate would be outrageous enough as it is, because I would say that at least 150% of the ideal time is what it truly takes to achieve 200k comms and a bit more than 75h (tired of accurate math) worth 75m credits, Which are 650% more of what we get, or in other words, a loss of 86.66% of what people worked hard for. Bioware should have made the rate 75m/200k = 375creds per comm (and find a better rate for the PVE comms respectfully), or at least, looking at the "ideal" 52mil: 52m/200k= 260creds per comm. And then what does bioware do instead? CAP IT! make it all 2mil credits. Well, I just gave you a math lesson. I do not intend to give an astronomy lesson so I will not tell you by how much do they reduce the deserved reward. So yes, It is absolutely justified to complain about the cap, it would have been absolutely justified to complain about the conversion rate had they made it lower, and it would even still be justified to complain about the current rate, even if bioware removed the cap (or never announced it). To be honest, I think I know what bioware is thinking: "It would be unfair to make the conversion significantly benefitial. Because it will give the veteran players a tremendous advantage over new players". Each word in this statement is accurate, except for one: "unfair". Here is a corrected statement: "It would be absolutely justified to make the conversion conversion significantly benefitial. Because it will give the veteran players a tremendous advantage over new players, and they DID work harder and more time than the new players after all. So it isn't any kind of unfair head start, since it isn't their 'start'.". I wonder when will bioware realise they can't simply reset the game and make everyone equal in order to attract more players. Communism has long been disproved, go try another method!!! [NOTE: A very tired man wrote these words, and therefore if my tone here looks a bit offensive I apologize for this wasn't intended. And most of it was aimed in general, I was planning on doing this math anyway but TheSkate's post about the possibility of people accepting a lower rate silently simply gave me a good contrast, which is always good when trying to explain one's opinion. This post isn't directed at you to start arguing (though I won't stop you if you want to ). I wonder if bioware ever did this math or considered the final paragraph...] Edited November 3, 2016 by Rafiknoll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadplayer Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 What happens to our PVE Tokens? I have around 11 Ultimate Exarch and 25 Exarch tokens I was going to trade in for crystals to begin my gearing process. What will we get for those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadplayer Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 If you insist. I lost and intentionally moved mine and did not get screwed. You think I read too much into this but as I see it the people stating that the devs clearly had intentions to SCREW the players and make them unsub and thereby cause the Devs lose their jobs, didn't read enough into it. Fine I lost but didn't get screwed. It's your world dog. No maybe they had intentions of screwing people, causing this game to fail so they can start a new game the way they really want it from scratch? Its Apparent that what SWTOR used to be is not what they want anymore. I am sorry I defended BW all during end of 3.0 and 4.0, but I cannot rationally continue to do that. Or can I believe that a company that wants a good product would continue to make these decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sareeph Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 In fact, thinking how much time is required to gain 200k warzone comms, even with the most ideal situation which is: always win, 4+ MVPs, 8+ medals (lets assume each wz grants 150 that way), do only dailies, meaning each 3 warzones grant additional 600 comms for both dailies, and each 8 grant 900 for the weekly. All this will result in 4300 comms with the minimal number of warzones, without "wasted" warzones such as losses, and warzones without daily and weekly: So, the least warzones required to finish a weekly are 8 wins. Lets not play any warzone without a daily, which requires 3 wins per day (both dailies), so once we finished the weekly and the extra daily in the 3rd day: We played 9 games, worth (assuming very high reward was granted): 150x9 = 1,350 We won one weekly reward worth: 900. We won 3 dailies (both dailies) worth 3x600 = 1800 Total = 1350+900=1800 = 4050comms / 9 warzones, Max possible reward. If we assume we play only 8 games and not finish the final daily: number of warzones is reduced by 1, rewards are reduced by 300 of the daily and 150 of the warzone itself, resulting in: 3600 comms / 8 warzones. Both given results are a ratio of 450 comms per warzone, this is again only assuming all warzones were won, when holding a daily and a weekly, and yielded a huge reward of 150 commendations (for comparison, winning with 16 medals and 1 vote grants only 141 comms. Good luck doing that all the times, considering all random factors of the group). How many ideal warzones does one need to get 200k commendations then? 200k/450 = 444.4444 (444 ideal warzones will grant 199'980 comms, leaving one normal warzone to finish the job). This is the lowest possible number of warzones required to get 200k, and that is, again, in an impossibly ideal situation. How much time do 445 warzones take? Well, assuming an average warzone duration ( of arenas of 2:0 on the one hand, and Novare stalemates on the other hand) is 7 mins, then 445 warzone will take 445x7=3115 mins which are 51h55m. But lets keep exaggarating and say each warzone only takes 5 mins, it will lead us to 445x5=2225 mins which are "only" 37h5m. How much is this time required for harvesting 200k warzone commendations worth if spent farming heroics instead of PVPing? Since 1h of farming in a group is worth around 1mil credits, it means that: If we take the ridiculously impossibly short time required to get 200k (51h55m): we get nearly 52mil credits. If we take the insanely impossibly short time (37h5m): We get "only" slightly more than 37mil credits. So, considering that even without the cap, the conversion rate grants us only 10 mil, which is more than 5 times less than the lowest possible worth of the time it takes to gather them, and is nearly 4 times less than worth the absolutely impossible time it might have taken with miracles (Won't annoy you with more math but even if all warzone would take 2 mins, it would take 14h50m to gather 200k. A time worth nearly 15 mil in credits, even that is more than the 10mil that the conversion grants). Please don't forget that even the highest amount of time which I calculated is 99% impossible and very unlikely to ever happen to anyone (Please go ahead and gain 150 comms in 445 warzone, never lose and only on daily basis, since each warzone done without a daily will reduce the comms/warzone ratio, resulting in the need for more warzones, taking even more time) and this is only the time in the warzone itself, not the gaming time in total. So the conversion rate would be outrageous enough as it is, because I would say that at least 150% of the ideal time is what it truly takes to achieve 200k comms and a bit more than 75h (tired of accurate math) worth 75m credits, Which are 650% more of what we get, or in other words, a loss of 86.66% of what people worked hard for. Bioware should have made the rate 75m/200k = 375creds per comm (and find a better rate for the PVE comms respectfully), or at least, looking at the "ideal" 52mil: 52m/200k= 260creds per comm. And then what does bioware do instead? CAP IT! make it all 2mil credits. Well, I just gave you a math lesson. I do not intend to give an astronomy lesson so I will not tell you by how much do they reduce the deserved reward. So yes, It is absolutely justified to complain about the cap, it would have been absolutely justified to complain about the conversion rate had they made it lower, and it would even still be justified to complain about the current rate, even if bioware removed the cap (or never announced it). To be honest, I think I know what bioware is thinking: "It would be unfair to make the conversion significantly benefitial. Because it will give the veteran players a tremendous advantage over new players". Each word in this statement is accurate, except for one: "unfair". Here is a corrected statement: "It would be absolutely justified to make the conversion conversion significantly benefitial. Because it will give the veteran players a tremendous advantage over new players, and they DID work harder and more time than the new players after all. So it isn't any kind of unfair head start, since it isn't their 'start'.". I wonder when will bioware realise they can't simply reset the game and make everyone equal in order to attract more players. Communism has long been disproved, go try another method!!! [NOTE: A very tired man wrote these words, and therefore if my tone here looks a bit offensive I apologize for this wasn't intended. And most of it was aimed in general, I was planning on doing this math anyway but TheSkate's post about the possibility of people accepting a lower rate silently simply gave me a good contrast, which is always good when trying to explain one's opinion. This post isn't directed at you to start arguing (though I won't stop you if you want to ). I wonder if bioware ever did this math or considered the final paragraph...] Given your past posts, all this hard work of acquiring 200k coms implies that all the time spent would be on one toon to get your 37+ hours with the further implication that this would span months to hit the 200k cap. So let's take a look at some of those past posts. Simple, because EVERY average PVE player has capped his comms and average PVP players don't have these kind of numbers of wz comms. In fact, I don't know if th average PVP player even has 35k comms, required to reach up to the PVE comm gain.: So here. players probably don't even have 35k coms on a toon. So to get to the 200k cap would require multiple toons doing the daily of 3 lost warzones. So much for the implication of months to get all those weeklies and dailies. Correction: You didn't even get a 1 day notice about the incoming loss, since the cap was introduced only AFTER the comms became bound. 2 separate things happened here 1. We got a really short notice about comms getting bound without any idea what implications will this have as all we knew at the point was, that they were converted to credits (No info about the cap meant no info about pros or cons of moving the comms anywhere). 2. After comms got bound and we couldn't do anything about their location, they told us for the 1st time about the cap. Meaning, that even a player who sat near his pc (logged into the game and active) since we got the 1st warning about the incoming binding and until the 4.7.3 who made the binding, would get biowared and lose credits due to the cap, because he didn't find any reason to split the comms around. Not to mention the lot of players who couldn't, for any possible reason, log into the game in the 24h period before the binding, even if they could somehow foresee the need to split. To make things even worse, here is a quote of myself in one of our site's forum (written before the cap came public): *** It i really odd that they made a frequency bound just before they convert it to credits (which aren't bound, not even to legacy). Don't forget that things are subjects for quick changes (gear granted for disp rather than advanced class, for example), so they might eventually decide wz comms become something else, or at least a little more (wz comms = valor + creds, maybe?). If they make such a change which will make their location matter, it will be after we can't move them and too late to make them movable before 5.0, so I would take precaution regardless. Don't get biowared! 😉 *** As you can see I (and I can't be the only one), didn't lack imagination when thinking about odd changes bioware might suddenly and unpredictably make in the plans. But coincidentally I took it complete 180 degrees away from the REAL sudden, unpredictable change. And as a guy who followed my own advice (and whoever else that listened to me, unsuspecting, just as I was) I am going to suffer even more due to bioware giving warning and making changes in the wrong order... Now here we see someone wanting to consolidate a stockpile of coms that will turn in to credits by converting "Maybe" 35k coms into legacy containers of a max 1k coms and mailing them 8 at a time costing credits for each sent mail. Of course, like I asked before, why spend all that time converting and sending multiple containers in multiple mails when one mail could easily be sent per toon after the Xpac? [The whole point of this quote are the quotes it has in there, so whoever reads this might wanna read the origin if he isn't exactly following] Hehe, don't you see what I am saying here? Having to dig around to find all necessary info and piece it up ISN'T considered a clear and simple way to convey a message. You didn't even place them in the order they are written, and you took half sentences and placed them together (the 1st half of the "merged" statement you have created is horrible work, if Eric would have said all these words in that context I would get suspicious, but he didn't). Not to mention that you cut of statements that make an opposite point ("please ensure they are on the character you want them to be on before Tuesday’s maintenance"), as many before me pointed out.: No I don't see, as explained above, there was no need to stockpile coms that everyone knew were turning in to credits. One could send credits to the com mule in a much easier fashion after the X-pac. The only reason to spend that much time converting and shipping would be that one didn't read the entire post of Erics and assumed the coms would convert in to Command XP and give them a quick boost to getting a higher Command Rank. As to your repeated question, which I have answered, what about the person who couldn't log in to spread their stockpile of 200k to save a loss? According to your above post, no one could even reach the 40k cap which turns in to the 2 mil credit cap anyways, right? Again, I do feel sorry for those that did have a com cap and could not log in to spread the coms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafiknoll Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 (edited) Given your past posts, all this hard work of acquiring 200k coms implies that all the time spent would be on one toon to get your 37+ hours with the further implication that this would span months to hit the 200k cap. So let's take a look at some of those past posts. {quote} So here.["Most" is missing here players probably don't even have 35k coms on a toon. So to get to the 200k cap would require multiple toons doing the daily of 3 lost warzones. So much for the implication of months to get all those weeklies and dailies. {quote} Now here we see someone wanting to consolidate a stockpile of coms that will turn in to credits by converting "Maybe" 35k coms into legacy containers of a max 1k coms and mailing them 8 at a time costing credits for each sent mail. Of course, like I asked before, why spend all that time converting and sending multiple containers in multiple mails when one mail could easily be sent per toon after the Xpac? {quote} No I don't see, as explained above, there was no need to stockpile coms that everyone knew were turning in to credits. One could send credits to the com mule in a much easier fashion after the X-pac. The only reason to spend that much time converting and shipping would be that one didn't read the entire post of Erics and assumed the coms would convert in to Command XP and give them a quick boost to getting a higher Command Rank. As to your repeated question, which I have answered, what about the person who couldn't log in to spread their stockpile of 200k to save a loss? According to your above post, no one could even reach the 40k cap which turns in to the 2 mil credit cap anyways, right? Again, I do feel sorry for those that did have a com cap and could not log in to spread the coms. My exact words were: "and average PVP players don't have these kind of numbers of wz comms. In fact, I don't know if the average PVP player even has 35k comms, required to reach up to the PVE comm gain". The fact I said the majority of player don't have 200k doesn't mean such players don't exist as you plainly inferred and said: "no one could even reach the 40k cap which turns in to the 2 mil credit cap anyways, right?" . Dude, when will you realize that some people mean exactly what they say, without the need of inferring? If a low number of people (say 5% of the players) gained 200k they deserve to get rewarded for it. The point of the quote you relied so heavily upon is was to say that the average PVP player isn't getting any more than the average PVE player. Never said that PVP players above the average don't exist. And according to my long post doing the math of things, it is only fair that the PVP player gets rewarded a bit more. [if comms were not converted at all, would PVE players complain about not being able to hold enough comms to fully gear themselves, while PVP players can do it in an instant if they stocked enough? No they wouldn't... Not the reasonable among them at least...] According to the math I did, 200k should be worth about 75m credits. If you haven't noticed, I didn't stop there, I made a simple ratio to say each comm should have been worth 375 credits. This math remains for people who have 10k (get 3,750,000 credits) , or even mere 2 comms (get 750 credits). So even if I did imply no one has 200k, it doesn't matter. As for you arguing with the fact I said months: How many days is it 75h? about 3, (day + night), now I don't know about you, but considering most players have jobs/school/family/sleep in their mind, and have an approximate 2-4h of gameplay per day (and some play even less, only twice a week and so on, but leaving them aside), so assuming their whole game time is active PVP (waiting between matches excluded) it will take 75[hours]/4[hours per day] = 18.75[days] (best case). For people who have 2 hours it will take twice the time, which is more than a month, and considering the waiting time between matches, which can be up to the warzone time itself (after all in my math I assumed it is only 7 mins, if it is more, add that as well), so you should double the time required again, which is now 75 days, = 2.5 months dedicated to PVP for the working/studying players in the game. "Months" didn't mean an exaggarated number like 7 or 20. Now does it still makes sense that gathering comms take "months"? As for the question why would someone stock comms which are converted to credits, I already answered it before, but am too lazy to look it up so I will say again: 1. Sending high amount of credits is risky, since mistype the address and you lost them all. Comm grants were BtL and therefore it is not risky to move them. 2. You even quoted me saying that, but I guess your logic simply said these are "distraction"s from the "clues" for my "real" meaning (when you "colored" certain parts of my post and puzzled them together, you ignored this one. This is how you read [or should I say: interpret] all posts, right?), so you missed it, so I will quote myself from the forum of my guild again: *** It i really odd that they made a frequency bound just before they convert it to credits (which aren't bound, not even to legacy). Don't forget that things are subjects for quick changes (gear granted for disp rather than advanced class, for example), so they might eventually decide wz comms become something else, or at least a little more (wz comms = valor + creds, maybe?). If they make such a change which will make their location matter, it will be after we can't move them and too late to make them movable before 5.0, so I would take precaution regardless. Don't get biowared! 😉 *** This assumption was not less probable than assuming they will decide on a cap suddenly. A fine reason to stock the credits. This assumption was also quite supported by Eric's post as so many others here have pointed out, and that is probably the reason everyone who stacked his comms did so (rather than assuming everyone are stupid people who read half-posts and jump conclusions instead of finishing to read. An assumption which is the reason many people in this thread are angry at you [i am not by the way, I keep cool when it comes to forum full of people I have never met]). By the way, in the 2nd last paragraph, you retreated again o explaining why was there no reason to stack the comms. You failed to defend your explanation to why should we have figured that we need to divide them, specifically, and simply, from Eric's post. And the whole point of the post that you quoted last was to show you that you don't have a good simple implication for the need to divide them. As for the 2nd half of the paragraph: You are indeed right that people assumed comms will grant something more (valor or CXP), but you are wrong when you say they did so since they didn't fully read the post. As much as converting to valor or CXP wasn't implied, a cap was also not implied. So assuming we should stack them to gain CXP or assuming we should split them to avoid cap was equally logical, but due to Eric's statement "are on the character you want them on", people decided in favor of stocking. And let me finish with a question: Did you have 40k warzone comms? IF NOT: You could never lose a significant amount of credits anyway, and I doubt you really had to divide them in order to avoid losing some. And even if you would lose some, it would be so insignificant and not really worth the bother. Doesn't really fit your story... IF YOU DO: Then why do you depend so much about me implying (I didn't, but you thought I did) that no one has 40k comms? Since you already know people have such sums (because you are one of these people), everything I said about the loss for people who have such an amount or above make sense regardless of what I "might have implied" in another post, about them not existing. In that case, was your only goal in this post to show everyone that I have contradicted myself? What would that achieve? Have we started playing lawyers here? That's kinda petty, don't you think? I do get the feeling this pettiness is the real reason for this post, though. After all, it wasn't directed at you, and regardless of possible self contradiction (which I explained in the beginning, in case the poor reader who reads such long posts might understandably forget), the math is still correct and still implies that each commendation should have been worth more. Months or not, People with 200k existing or not... Don't make this argument a personal war, man. I am trying to be objective here... Edited November 4, 2016 by Rafiknoll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippper Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 this is most stupid idea that conversion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sareeph Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 (edited) My exact words were: "and average PVP players don't have these kind of numbers of wz comms. In fact, I don't know if the average PVP player even has 35k comms, required to reach up to the PVE comm gain". The fact I said the majority of player don't have 200k doesn't mean such players don't exist as you plainly inferred and said: "no one could even reach the 40k cap which turns in to the 2 mil credit cap anyways, right?" . Dude, when will you realize that some people mean exactly what they say, without the need of inferring? If a low number of people (say 5% of the players) gained 200k they deserve to get rewarded for it. The point of the quote you relied so heavily upon is was to say that the average PVP player isn't getting any more than the average PVE player. Never said that PVP players above the average don't exist. And according to my long post doing the math of things, it is only fair that the PVP player gets rewarded a bit more. [if comms were not converted at all, would PVE players complain about not being able to hold enough comms to fully gear themselves, while PVP players can do it in an instant if they stocked enough? No they wouldn't... Not the reasonable among them at least...] According to the math I did, 200k should be worth about 75m credits. If you haven't noticed, I didn't stop there, I made a simple ratio to say each comm should have been worth 375 credits. This math remains for people who have 10k (get 3,750,000 credits) , or even mere 2 comms (get 750 credits). So even if I did imply no one has 200k, it doesn't matter. As for you arguing with the fact I said months: How many days is it 75h? about 3, (day + night), now I don't know about you, but considering most players have jobs/school/family/sleep in their mind, and have an approximate 2-4h of gameplay per day (and some play even less, only twice a week and so on, but leaving them aside), so assuming their whole game time is active PVP (waiting between matches excluded) it will take 75[hours]/4[hours per day] = 18.75[days] (best case). For people who have 2 hours it will take twice the time, which is more than a month, and considering the waiting time between matches, which can be up to the warzone time itself (after all in my math I assumed it is only 7 mins, if it is more, add that as well), so you should double the time required again, which is now 75 days, = 2.5 months dedicated to PVP for the working/studying players in the game. "Months" didn't mean an exaggarated number like 7 or 20. Now does it still makes sense that gathering comms take "months"? As for the question why would someone stock comms which are converted to credits, I already answered it before, but am too lazy to look it up so I will say again: 1. Sending high amount of credits is risky, since mistype the address and you lost them all. Comm grants were BtL and therefore it is not risky to move them. 2. You even quoted me saying that, but I guess your logic simply said these are "distraction"s from the "clues" for my "real" meaning (when you "colored" certain parts of my post and puzzled them together, you ignored this one. This is how you read [or should I say: interpret] all posts, right?), so you missed it, so I will quote myself from the forum of my guild again: *** It i really odd that they made a frequency bound just before they convert it to credits (which aren't bound, not even to legacy). Don't forget that things are subjects for quick changes (gear granted for disp rather than advanced class, for example), so they might eventually decide wz comms become something else, or at least a little more (wz comms = valor + creds, maybe?). If they make such a change which will make their location matter, it will be after we can't move them and too late to make them movable before 5.0, so I would take precaution regardless. Don't get biowared! 😉 *** This assumption was not less probable than assuming they will decide on a cap suddenly. A fine reason to stock the credits. This assumption was also quite supported by Eric's post as so many others here have pointed out, and that is probably the reason everyone who stacked his comms did so (rather than assuming everyone are stupid people who read half-posts and jump conclusions instead of finishing to read. An assumption which is the reason many people in this thread are angry at you [i am not by the way, I keep cool when it comes to forum full of people I have never met]). By the way, in the 2nd last paragraph, you retreated again o explaining why was there no reason to stack the comms. You failed to defend your explanation to why should we have figured that we need to divide them, specifically, and simply, from Eric's post. And the whole point of the post that you quoted last was to show you that you don't have a good simple implication for the need to divide them. As for the 2nd half of the paragraph: You are indeed right that people assumed comms will grant something more (valor or CXP), but you are wrong when you say they did so since they didn't fully read the post. As much as converting to valor or CXP wasn't implied, a cap was also not implied. So assuming we should stack them to gain CXP or assuming we should split them to avoid cap was equally logical, but due to Eric's statement "are on the character you want them on", people decided in favor of stocking. And let me finish with a question: Did you have 40k warzone comms? IF NOT: You could never lose a significant amount of credits anyway, and I doubt you really had to divide them in order to avoid losing some. And even if you would lose some, it would be so insignificant and not really worth the bother. Doesn't really fit your story... IF YOU DO: Then why do you depend so much about me implying (I didn't, but you thought I did) that no one has 40k comms? Since you already know people have such sums (because you are one of these people), everything I said about the loss for people who have such an amount or above make sense regardless of what I "might have implied" in another post, about them not existing. In that case, was your only goal in this post to show everyone that I have contradicted myself? What would that achieve? Have we started playing lawyers here? That's kinda petty, don't you think? I do get the feeling this pettiness is the real reason for this post, though. After all, it wasn't directed at you, and regardless of possible self contradiction (which I explained in the beginning, in case the poor reader who reads such long posts might understandably forget), the math is still correct and still implies that each commendation should have been worth more. Months or not, People with 200k existing or not... Don't make this argument a personal war, man. I am trying to be objective here... No, you implied that most do not have 200k since the average player wouldn't even have 35k and I was using your implication that no average player did as a counter to your own statement. I know many who have the com cap on multiple toons but that doesn't make them above average. Just someone with more time than others. As for the above average PvP player deserving something more, what about the above average PvE player? I'm sure they could counter that actually being able to defeat NiM content should show they deserve more as well. So maybe those purple crystals should be worth 150k apiece to be on par with your 375 credit com since there is a cap of 500 instead of 200k? You think people coming home from work and spending hours each night dying to the same boss in progression have any more time to go out and get those easy PvE credits everyone keeps blathering on about than the PvP players grinding the daily? Actually, I did respond to why I thought people shouldn't have stacked coms. You just dismissed it as me quoting Eric in the wrong order in a colorful post. Eric posted points about the upcoming changes but not in the order people liked so I rearranged them to show how I reached that conclusion. You "doubt", you have no idea what quantity of coms I have so quit posting assumptions to try and discredit others. The fact that you doubt I have many doesn't mean I don't. Personally I spend my time doing PvP while waiting for raid time and make my creds on the GTN. Your explanation that you could make an error and send credits to the wrong person is rather weak. You type in 2 to 3 letters in the recipient field and the game has an auto fill dropdown that lists toons names with the corresponding letters from your legacy, friends list, and guild. Simply position your cursor over the correct name and you're done. Double check before you hit send and no worries. Even if you did, I would hope that anyone on your friends list or guild wouldn't try and screw you over. All your math of what you feel coms should be worth is meaningless. The Devs assigned a value they felt was relevant and wouldn't disrupt the game. If they were to actually balance full time PvP with full time PvE in the name of Fairness, PvP coms would be worth 8.75 credits. I say this because had they went with your estimated value, they would have an even bigger outcry from the PvE subscribers than they do now with PvP subs. Not all who PvE run around doing heroics. Who said anything about exaggerated times like 7 to 20 months? I simply said months. I'd be interested to know what you think a reasonable time to clear NiM content would be. Pettiness? I was simply showing that your argument keeps changing. First "average", which by your numbers means 95%, couldn't achieve more than 35k. Later, What about the ones who were tricked into stockpiling? Say what you want but just because someone doesn't buy into the (The Devs are purposely trying to screw the PvP players mentality) posted all through this thread, doesn't make them a troll or on the payroll of the Devs as some have posted. Edited November 4, 2016 by Sareeph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrainsickAdrian Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 Niceee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippper Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 this game will die very soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafiknoll Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 No, you implied that most do not have 200k since the average player wouldn't even have 35k and I was using your implication that no average player did as a counter to your own statement. I know many who have the com cap on multiple toons but that doesn't make them above average. Just someone with more time than others. As for the above average PvP player deserving something more, what about the above average PvE player? I'm sure they could counter that actually being able to defeat NiM content should show they deserve more as well. So maybe those purple crystals should be worth 150k apiece to be on par with your 375 credit com since there is a cap of 500 instead of 200k? You think people coming home from work and spending hours each night dying to the same boss in progression have any more time to go out and get those easy PvE credits everyone keeps blathering on about than the PvP players grinding the daily? I mentioned it shortly in the last post but let me say it again, this time in a whole paragraph: Had comms remained without conversion as they always have since launch (they just got converted to other comms few times), no PVE player would have any complaint about PVP players having more and having a headstart in gearing compared to the PVP player. People have already grown to accept that PVP players can hold much more comms, enabling them to be ready for full gearing as soon as an expansion comms. I would agree about what you said about the supposed worth of purple crystals had they been only acquirable through NiM content, but as both a PVP player, a solo content player and a raid leader (who uses mostly not to focus NiM) , I know very well that getting to the cap on all kinds of commendations takes a quite short period of time, killing the easier SM and HM bosses. Even a group which is stuck on a certain OPS boss would gain enough comms to cap themselves from clearing the bosses prior to him every weekly reset, just in order to get to him and start wiping (assuming their progression is past the 1st boss of course). Clearing NiM was (achievements aside) not rewarding at all since 4.0, and the little 224 "improvement" they implemented was too less too late. So complaining about how unfair are the rewards for PVE progression groups compared to the PVP ones is quite too late, and has nothing to do with the conversion (unless you want them to make raids retroactively worthwhile even though they weren't. A noble goal which I wouldn't mind supporting, but we are discussing something different: PVP was rewarding, but now they are ruining the reward. Regardless, I never said the rate for the PVE crystals is fair, in fact, let me quote myself: Bioware should have made the rate 75m/200k = 375creds per comm (and find a better rate for the PVE comms respectfully), or at least, looking at the "ideal" 52mil: 52m/200k= 260creds per comm. Wouldn't say 150k per piece (thats quite exaggarated) since as I said, it was already accepted that PVP players have a headstart in gearing, but I would indeed say that 5 or 10 times more creds are in order per each crystal.., (in fact, during the fictional math I made later in this post, it turned to be 20 times more for the purple ones, see below. The math there is completely made up on an assumption, waiting for someone to do the real thing...) Actually, I did respond to why I thought people shouldn't have stacked coms. You just dismissed it as me quoting Eric in the wrong order in a colorful post. Eric posted points about the upcoming changes but not in the order people liked so I rearranged them to show how I reached that conclusion. I did see the reasoning, but this it is no longer the simple, clear and short message that we should have got. You said yourself it was "not in the order people liked" and you had to rearrange the statements, while "rearrange" means fish out the necessary half-statements from the long paragraph. The very same paragraph was interpreted completely backward by many of us. By mistake or not doesn't matter anymore, Eric should have made such an important warning unmistakable, and since I explained some times already what was the sense in the mistake and why isn't it necessary (not to mention insulting) to assume all the people who were wrong read half the post and guessed the other half and got to wrong conclusion. In fact, my quote from my guild (which was written here at least twice) proves that I knew about the conversion to credits, and regardless assumed that it would be better to stock them. While you might not agree with me there or think otherwise, you can't say it was completely illogical, and can't say I missed some of the info given at that time. So that is at least one man in the world who stocked his comms and not due to his own failure, but due to Eric's failure in clarity... You "doubt", you have no idea what quantity of coms I have so quit posting assumptions to try and discredit others. The fact that you doubt I have many doesn't mean I don't. Personally I spend my time doing PvP while waiting for raid time and make my creds on the GTN. I assumed nothing, I didn't know the quantity of your comms and therefore addresses both possiblities. The possibility which is wrong should have been ignored and I am sorry if I didn't clarify this enough. But actually I did a bit: And let me finish with a question: Did you have 40k warzone comms? IF NOT: You could never lose a significant amount of credits anyway, and I doubt you really had to divide them in order to avoid losing some. And even if you would lose some, it would be so insignificant and not really worth the bother. Doesn't really fit your story... IF YOU DO: Then why do you depend so much about me implying (I didn't, but you thought I did) that no one has 40k comms? Since you already know people have such sums (because you are one of these people), everything I said about the loss for people who have such an amount or above make sense regardless of what I "might have implied" in another post, about them not existing. In that case, was your only goal in this post to show everyone that I have contradicted myself? What would that achieve? Have we started playing lawyers here? That's kinda petty, don't you think? I do get the feeling this pettiness is the real reason for this post, though. After all, it wasn't directed at you, and regardless of possible self contradiction (which I explained in the beginning, in case the poor reader who reads such long posts might understandably forget), the math is still correct and still implies that each commendation should have been worth more. Months or not, People with 200k existing or not... Your explanation that you could make an error and send credits to the wrong person is rather weak. You type in 2 to 3 letters in the recipient field and the game has an auto fill dropdown that lists toons names with the corresponding letters from your legacy, friends list, and guild. Simply position your cursor over the correct name and you're done. Double check before you hit send and no worries. Even if you did, I would hope that anyone on your friends list or guild wouldn't try and screw you over. 1. What if I have a friend with a name quite similar to my own? I need only the 1st 3 letters to match, and have approximately the same name and there I can easily get a wrong name. 2. As for you hope no one in the friends list or guild would try to screw me, there are quite a few options why it still might happen: A) My guild is big and I don't even know at least 30% of the people there, screw possibility is not that low. B) Some people on my friends list might have gone inactive without me knowing, so my credits would be hanging in their mailbox even if had they been active they would return them to me. C) I and many more people use the friends list to keep tabs on people we dislike, distrust and even hate, simply because it is the best tracking tool in the game (ignore list won't tell me where is a man, when does he log in or out). 3. I had another reason to stack the credits: I, like many others, thought it might turn out to be beneficial. The reasons for the assumption were mentioned throughout the thread more than enough (The famous quote of "...where you want them") and I proved above (in this specific post) that it wasn't caused by misreading or not reading the whole post last time, and that I knew all given facts. Read the post I quoted twice from my guild's forum (it doesn't look like a quote since it isn't from this site, it is barred by *** [this isn't a language filter] on both sides). It is written there that I did know about the conversion and I did know it is about credits, and yet had my reasons to think it is beneficial to stack them. Was I wrong? Retroactively it seems so. Could I somehow realize I am wrong before it was too late? This was argued in this thread, but even if I could. Bioware shouldn't have made so easy to mistake them... All your math of what you feel coms should be worth is meaningless. The Devs assigned a value they felt was relevant and wouldn't disrupt the game. If they were to actually balance full time PvP with full time PvE in the name of Fairness, PvP coms would be worth 8.75 credits. I say this because had they went with your estimated value, they would have an even bigger outcry from the PvE subscribers than they do now with PvP subs. Not all who PvE run around doing heroics. And not all who PVP win all the time and do only dailies. Running around doing heroics was not estimating the comms or credits earned by PVE players compared to PVP players. I used heroics to estimate the value of gameplay time. I used that to explain why does 1h = 1mil credits. After I have done that I said that due to that the yield 1h of active PVP in comms should be equal to that. So I would also say for the yield of active PVE time. If someone would calculate the approximate minimal time is takes to reach cap on PVE crystals (blue and purple at least, green is more complicated since everything grants it), we could also do the math for the fair worth of PVE comms. I simply spoke of PVP because I was addressing something someone said about it specifically, and since it was easier for me to calculate that. Lets say that someone would calculate and find that gaining 500 purple crystals take 15 hours (assuming ideal situations, such as doing different ops, with weeklies, via gf and so on), that means 500 crystals should be worth 15mil, which means 30k credits per crystal. Quite fair compared to 375 (no "k") per warzone comm, don't you? Someone please go ahead and calculate if you wish. It is a beat more complicated than warzone comms though, since I am not sure which is the best way to farm these crystals, as there is more than 1 way (and am also not sure what quality of an OPS group should I consider and therefore what is the estimate time to complete ops of different difficulties). But whoever has a mind to it feel free to do the math. I am sure you will find that PVE comms will be worth enough to be satisfactory balanced. Who said anything about exaggerated times like 7 to 20 months? I simply said months. I'd be interested to know what you think a reasonable time to clear NiM content would be. As i said above NiM content wasn't satisfactory rewarded since 4.0. As hard as progression is (I mentioned I am a raid leader), lately the reward was only the progression itself and the satisfaction it grants you. People who farmed EC, KP and SNV when they were prioritized got the same rewards as NiM experts, except for some trophies (lucky roll only), achievements and decorations (I mean the pictures, which are "non-edible" in credits, the rest are lucky rolls). As for the "simply said months": I simply said months, you simply said months. I said it takes months to get the comms and you said it doesn't take months to do so (relying on the number I provided in my math). I said it IS months according to my math, but a low number of months, and since you know math, I assumed you saw that too. So why would you argue about 2 months being "months"? I assumed it was because you took the word "months" as more months. 7 and 20 were merely examples. I might have been wrong there, ignore it if so Pettiness? I was simply showing that your argument keeps changing. First "average", which by your numbers means 95%, couldn't achieve more than 35k. Later, What about the ones who were tricked into stockpiling? Maybe this word is "heavier" than I think it is (I am not English). What I meant to say is: It is quite wierd that you would make a long post which mainly focusing in showing my self contradictions ("showing that your argument keeps changing"). What would you gain by that? Even if they do contradict each other, it doesn't make my last point (about the comms' fair value) incorrect. Because you don't really believe most people have less than 40k. Therefore using a fact which YOU think is WRONG, to contradict something I said, simply because I think the fact is correct, creates a paradox [Read slowly, none of the people who I tested this statement on figured it out in the 1st attempt]: If you are right about the fact being wrong, your proof is wrong, because it relies on a wrong fact. If your proof which relies upon this fact is correct, it means that you are wrong about the fact being wrong (because the fact is correct). The only reason I found to explain this paradox was that you didn't say what you thought was write, but simply tried to show me why am I illogical. I the need to show me such a thing without gaining anything else, pettiness. Though again, I hope this word is not more insulting than I was lead to believe... Let me, in short, explain why didn't I contradict myself: Even assuming no player can gain 200k comms, the math I did showed how much time WOULD it take to gain 200k (was around 52h, ideal time), said that 1h should be worth 1mil credits due to the gain of 1h of heroic farming being the same, and therefore said that 52h should be worth 52mil credits' which also mean 200k comms (which take 52h to achieve) should be worth 52mil. Now I made the math for price per comm and found 52m/200k=260creds per comm. [Did this math for some more numbers, but you can find this specific one up there as well]. This is now true even for people who have 1 comm and above, not only for people who have 200k, so the math is logical even if you say no1 ever gained 200k (which is an exaggeration, even according to what you think I said). If you dislike using the number 200k, you can get to the same result without it: Completing 1 weekly over 3 dailies, assuming all games are wins (ideal, and that means it took 9 warzones), take 7 mins average time (which is fair, putting arenas and Novare coast in the same math), and the player achieved more than 8 medals and a few votes (again ideal) and received 150 comms per match (very ideal, since with 16 comms, a win and 1 vote, i got only 141): How much time did the 9 warzones take? 7(mins) x 9(warzones) = 63(mins). Slightly more than 1h (worth slightly more than 1 mil credits) How many comms were gained? 150(comms/warzone) x 9 (warzones) + 300(comms/daily) x 6(dailies, both the 4/4 and the 2/2) + 900(comms for the weekly) = 4,050 comms. The ratio for commendations per time is 4050(comms)/63(mins), but lets round it down to 4050(comms/hour). That means that 4050 comms should be worth 1 mil credits, since 1h is worth 1 mil credits. So how much does 1 comm worth? 1mil(creds/hour) / 4050(comms/hour)=247(creds/comm). Not exactly the 260 we got above, but since in both maths I made some "roundings" in the end, (rounded the time up to 52h, and rounded the time here to 1h), so the little difference is understandable. Here I did a nice math without even using the number 200k, happy? [And note that this is the lowest possible rate. Another approach would be to make the rate depend on a single warzone, but there it would be 60<X<150(commendation grant) and 5<T<15(match duration in minutes) and the comm gain ratio is X/T(comms per min). Since 60 mins is 1mil creds, 1 mins is 16,666.66666 credits. Even if we take the best ratio of comms per min, which is 150/5 = 30(comms per min), it will still mean each comm is worth 16,666.666(credits/min)/30(comms/min) = 555.555(creds/comms) which is much more. Increase the T and reduce the X in the ranges I have given, which are quite realistic according to the many warzones that I have played, and you can only increase the rate of creds/comms up to approx 4000(creds/comms) for long and bad warzones. I admit I can't expect such a conversion rate (and sorry for the terrible match, if you even experienced it), but all I wanted to prove is, calculating the weekly gain and based on that, the fair conversion rate will grant the lowest rate, and there is no way to get below there (it was only 247 creds per comm) and this rate is yet 5 times lass than the current rate, even without counting the cap. And again, I didn't have to assume that people have or don't have 200k comms, so no self contradicitions. Say what you want but just because someone doesn't buy into the (The Devs are purposely trying to screw the PvP players mentality) posted all through this thread, doesn't make them a troll or on the payroll of the Devs as some have posted. I never implied such a thing, and apologize if I seemed to... [is it because of the word "petty"?''. I admitted I might have misunderstood it's exact meaning] By the way (I actually took this idea from you): When you respond to posts please cut the quotes and place the responses between them. Sometimes it took me a few seconds to look up the thing you were referring to in that last post. I ask so simply to make our posts easier to read and understand, to save time and miscommunication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sareeph Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I mentioned it shortly in the last post but let me say it again, this time in a whole paragraph: Had comms remained without conversion as they always have since launch (they just got converted to other comms few times), no PVE player would have any complaint about PVP players having more and having a headstart in gearing compared to the PVP player. People have already grown to accept that PVP players can hold much more comms, enabling them to be ready for full gearing as soon as an expansion comms. I would agree about what you said about the supposed worth of purple crystals had they been only acquirable through NiM content, but as both a PVP player, a solo content player and a raid leader (who uses mostly not to focus NiM) , I know very well that getting to the cap on all kinds of commendations takes a quite short period of time, killing the easier SM and HM bosses. Even a group which is stuck on a certain OPS boss would gain enough comms to cap themselves from clearing the bosses prior to him every weekly reset, just in order to get to him and start wiping (assuming their progression is past the 1st boss of course). Clearing NiM was (achievements aside) not rewarding at all since 4.0, and the little 224 "improvement" they implemented was too less too late. So complaining about how unfair are the rewards for PVE progression groups compared to the PVP ones is quite too late, and has nothing to do with the conversion (unless you want them to make raids retroactively worthwhile even though they weren't. A noble goal which I wouldn't mind supporting, but we are discussing something different: PVP was rewarding, but now they are ruining the reward. Regardless, I never said the rate for the PVE crystals is fair, in fact, let me quote myself: Wouldn't say 150k per piece (thats quite exaggarated) since as I said, it was already accepted that PVP players have a headstart in gearing, but I would indeed say that 5 or 10 times more creds are in order per each crystal.., (in fact, during the fictional math I made later in this post, it turned to be 20 times more for the purple ones, see below. The math there is completely made up on an assumption, waiting for someone to do the real thing...) When PvP and PvE players were wearing different gear, you would be correct. Now that the gear will be the same, there would be a tremendous outcry. Like I said in an earlier post, one could fully outfit 9 toons with BiS gear with a 200k cap. I never understood the need for a cap that large and now that all coms/crystals are going away, to say that it would be fair and completely understood by the reasonable PvE player's you mentioned in an earlier post, is just unrealistic I did see the reasoning, but this it is no longer the simple, clear and short message that we should have got. You said yourself it was "not in the order people liked" and you had to rearrange the statements, while "rearrange" means fish out the necessary half-statements from the long paragraph. The very same paragraph was interpreted completely backward by many of us. By mistake or not doesn't matter anymore, Eric should have made such an important warning unmistakable, and since I explained some times already what was the sense in the mistake and why isn't it necessary (not to mention insulting) to assume all the people who were wrong read half the post and guessed the other half and got to wrong conclusion. In fact, my quote from my guild (which was written here at least twice) proves that I knew about the conversion to credits, and regardless assumed that it would be better to stock them. While you might not agree with me there or think otherwise, you can't say it was completely illogical, and can't say I missed some of the info given at that time. So that is at least one man in the world who stocked his comms and not due to his own failure, but due to Eric's failure in clarity.... The world doesn't spell everything out in succinct order. Eric was posting points and stayed on topic within each paragraph. Some times we have to cipher for ourselves. 1. What if I have a friend with a name quite similar to my own? I need only the 1st 3 letters to match, and have approximately the same name and there I can easily get a wrong name. 2. As for you hope no one in the friends list or guild would try to screw me, there are quite a few options why it still might happen: A) My guild is big and I don't even know at least 30% of the people there, screw possibility is not that low. B) Some people on my friends list might have gone inactive without me knowing, so my credits would be hanging in their mailbox even if had they been active they would return them to me. C) I and many more people use the friends list to keep tabs on people we dislike, distrust and even hate, simply because it is the best tracking tool in the game (ignore list won't tell me where is a man, when does he log in or out). 3. I had another reason to stack the credits: I, like many others, thought it might turn out to be beneficial. The reasons for the assumption were mentioned throughout the thread more than enough (The famous quote of "...where you want them") and I proved above (in this specific post) that it wasn't caused by misreading or not reading the whole post last time, and that I knew all given facts. Read the post I quoted twice from my guild's forum (it doesn't look like a quote since it isn't from this site, it is barred by *** [this isn't a language filter] on both sides). It is written there that I did know about the conversion and I did know it is about credits, and yet had my reasons to think it is beneficial to stack them. Was I wrong? Retroactively it seems so. Could I somehow realize I am wrong before it was too late? This was argued in this thread, but even if I could. Bioware shouldn't have made so easy to mistake them.... Like I said, double check before you hit send. If you do not, that is on you and trying to place blame on the Devs because you fail to safeguard yourself is pointless. That's like saying that it's someone else's fault that I accidently left off 3 0's on my price for the GTN and someone bought it. And not all who PVP win all the time and do only dailies. Running around doing heroics was not estimating the comms or credits earned by PVE players compared to PVP players. I used heroics to estimate the value of gameplay time. I used that to explain why does 1h = 1mil credits. After I have done that I said that due to that the yield 1h of active PVP in comms should be equal to that. So I would also say for the yield of active PVE time. If someone would calculate the approximate minimal time is takes to reach cap on PVE crystals (blue and purple at least, green is more complicated since everything grants it), we could also do the math for the fair worth of PVE comms. I simply spoke of PVP because I was addressing something someone said about it specifically, and since it was easier for me to calculate that. Lets say that someone would calculate and find that gaining 500 purple crystals take 15 hours (assuming ideal situations, such as doing different ops, with weeklies, via gf and so on), that means 500 crystals should be worth 15mil, which means 30k credits per crystal. Quite fair compared to 375 (no "k") per warzone comm, don't you? Someone please go ahead and calculate if you wish. It is a beat more complicated than warzone comms though, since I am not sure which is the best way to farm these crystals, as there is more than 1 way (and am also not sure what quality of an OPS group should I consider and therefore what is the estimate time to complete ops of different difficulties). But whoever has a mind to it feel free to do the math. I am sure you will find that PVE comms will be worth enough to be satisfactory balanced And why should we calculate the value of everything else off of the one aspect (open to all players mind you) of the game that yields the most credits? Why not the 3 hours of wipes against NiM Brontes when progressing? It's nice to say I should get equal consideration for my time as someone else but unrealistic. As i said above NiM content wasn't satisfactory rewarded since 4.0. As hard as progression is (I mentioned I am a raid leader), lately the reward was only the progression itself and the satisfaction it grants you. People who farmed EC, KP and SNV when they were prioritized got the same rewards as NiM experts, except for some trophies (lucky roll only), achievements and decorations (I mean the pictures, which are "non-edible" in credits, the rest are lucky rolls). As for the "simply said months": I simply said months, you simply said months. I said it takes months to get the comms and you said it doesn't take months to do so (relying on the number I provided in my math). I said it IS months according to my math, but a low number of months, and since you know math, I assumed you saw that too. So why would you argue about 2 months being "months"? I assumed it was because you took the word "months" as more months. 7 and 20 were merely examples. I might have been wrong there, ignore it if so On this we agree Maybe this word is "heavier" than I think it is (I am not English). What I meant to say is: It is quite wierd that you would make a long post which mainly focusing in showing my self contradictions ("showing that your argument keeps changing"). What would you gain by that? Even if they do contradict each other, it doesn't make my last point (about the comms' fair value) incorrect. Because you don't really believe most people have less than 40k. Therefore using a fact which YOU think is WRONG, to contradict something I said, simply because I think the fact is correct, creates a paradox [Read slowly, none of the people who I tested this statement on figured it out in the 1st attempt]: If you are right about the fact being wrong, your proof is wrong, because it relies on a wrong fact. If your proof which relies upon this fact is correct, it means that you are wrong about the fact being wrong (because the fact is correct). The only reason I found to explain this paradox was that you didn't say what you thought was write, but simply tried to show me why am I illogical. I the need to show me such a thing without gaining anything else, pettiness. Though again, I hope this word is not more insulting than I was lead to believe... My posting such wasn't what I would get out of it but what you might. All I have submitted in this thread has been towards getting people to reflect and stop making statements like the "Dev's are out to screw us" and "The devs are trying to kill the game so we move on to their next one" It would be nice if Disney would pick up Bioware and let them take the time they always wanted to with this game on a future installment but that is a discussion for another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafiknoll Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 When PvP and PvE players were wearing different gear, you would be correct. Now that the gear will be the same, there would be a tremendous outcry. Like I said in an earlier post, one could fully outfit 9 toons with BiS gear with a 200k cap. I never understood the need for a cap that large and now that all coms/crystals are going away, to say that it would be fair and completely understood by the reasonable PvE player's you mentioned in an earlier post, is just unrealistic Know what? I can see your reasoning here. Though that would be outrageous had the comms retained the quick gearing ability. Given the current very low conversion rate (added to the fact that I still believe that the average PVPer will not gain so much more than the PVEer anyway), the difference would be so low for most players, that I doubt it will raise a complaint. However, I can understand if you would say that since we are discussing small differences, than removing the differences worse than leaving them be. Problem is, what of people who do both PVE and PVP? It is reasonable that they will get more rewards since they do more things (NiM content excluded, and you agreed there ), and due to the cap they won't. The world doesn't spell everything out in succinct order. Eric was posting points and stayed on topic within each paragraph. Some times we have to cipher for ourselves. No one ever said bioware openly lied to us and said the opposite of what they said. It is true that people should have ciphered the meaning of Eric for themselves, and in fact, many did. Problem is, Eric was vague enough to make some people, me included, to believe we should do the opposite of what we actually should do. That was not a failure in our logic, nor is anyone inferring the (retrospective) truth illogical. Until now you attempted to say that everyone should have realized what they needed to do from Eric's post. You said that the signs were there and everyone acting anyhow else were simply misreading or too lazy to read the whole paragraph. I am glad to see that now this is over and you actually say that Eric spelled neither accurate nor false information, but partial information from which we should have guesses the rest. My question to Eric is: This is a game, you are a developer of this game. You are supposed to want everyone to be satisfied with this game. Therefore, why not make another slight effort to make things clear enough so people don't understand incorrectly and harm themselves, causing dissatisfaction with your game? Saying that the world doesn't spell out everything is true, but the difference is, like it or not, this is the world, and unless I consider suicide I can't unsub and find a better one if I dislike it. So I make do with what I have. A game is not a necessity, and if people won't enjoy they will simply leave, so some effort from the devs is required... [When putting it like that, does it mean that if we COULD "switch instances" in real life, God would make the world a better place to convince us to stay? Like I said, double check before you hit send. If you do not, that is on you and trying to place blame on the Devs because you fail to safeguard yourself is pointless. That's like saying that it's someone else's fault that I accidently left off 3 0's on my price for the GTN and someone bought it. 100% safety > 99% safety. I agree the risk is low but we are discussing some lots of credits for some players here, so any insurance is welcome. The fact we can't complain about miss sending is the exact reason why should we take additional precautions to avoid it. This was one of the things I personally considered when stacking my comms. Remember that at that time there were 3 possibilities: Eric says to put the comms were we want them because: 1. We would gain from stacking them. 2. We would gain from dividing them. 3. We gain nothing, it is a matter of self comfort for any ridiculous reason someone might have. (It was a possibility, we are discussing bioware here...). I can give a personal example that as a man who wanted all credits in one spot, I found reasons 1 and 3 in my favor (and to be honest, didn't consider option 2 probable at all...). Seeing most posts in this thread I wasn't alone there. In short: If you disapprove of the reason "due to possible miss sending": 1. Remember that it was possible that there was nothing to gain from moving the comms beside personal comfort (another idea which just comes to mind: to buy a PVP decoration before they are moved to who-knows-where when warzone vendors get removed or reformed). Since the reasons for moving the comms might have had nothing to do with long-term gain (but buying deorations, maybe), people also might have used their chance because they, each with his own reason which might sound stupid, wanted all comms in one place. 2. See reason number 3 in the paragraph you quoted (which is above the paragraph quoted above this paragraph, man I love saying long statements with repeated phrases). It has nothing to do with miss sending, and is quite logical (and as reality proves, common among the community) And why should we calculate the value of everything else off of the one aspect (open to all players mind you) of the game that yields the most credits? Why not the 3 hours of wipes against NiM Brontes when progressing? It's nice to say I should get equal consideration for my time as someone else but unrealistic. I hear you there, but effort in this game can be measured in 2 ways: difficulty or time spent. Since nightmares are not rewarding, we can see bioware has no value to difficulty (a problem on it's own, but that's for another thread). The other possible measurement is time spent. Before the conversion we can see time spent is somehow proportional to reward, since the more warzones you play => the more time you spend => the more comms you get. And same can be said for heroics, gf sm ops (assuming it is a normal group who finishes the ops in a certain amount of time, sometimes there are some non rewarding wipes even there), and flashpoints (again excluding wipes with noobs), most not-very-hard content in this game will reward you the same currency, more and more, as a factor of the times spent doing the activity. So I chose heroics, you could say I should have chosen gf ops instead, fair. [NiM is not, though, it is an exception as we both agree. An unfair exception that should have never been created in 4.0, but this is not the subject here] My initial point in the calculations was to answer a guy who said that had the conversion rate for PVP comms been lower (he gave the example 10creds/comm), no one would have complained about PVPers getting screwed. I then made the math to prove that according to time spent, PVPers take more time to gain their currency, and therefore should get rewarded a bit more than PVE players (which I also think should get a better rate than they have, by the way). Later I really forgot my main purpose there (since he didn't respond since) and your response was an argument against my secondary conclusion, which was what was the rate supposed to be. I will admit that when I responded to that one I didn't remember that the actual numbers in the rate were not my main point. Therefore, I can agree that it can be said the proportion between time spent and credit conversion rate doesn't have to be calculated by heroics. It could be also gf ops, fps, or even a made up number. But the credit gain must still be proportional to the time spent gathering all the comms (I really can't see any better idea, since it can't be difficulty, and making up rates like bioware did is just what it sounds: making up, senselessly). I am afraid it will result in the PVPer being able to gain some more than PVEer if both have a high amount of comms, but that is because PVPer really did spend more time gathering the comms compared to the PVEers. My posting such wasn't what I would get out of it but what you might. All I have submitted in this thread has been towards getting people to reflect and stop making statements like the "Dev's are out to screw us" and "The devs are trying to kill the game so we move on to their next one" It would be nice if Disney would pick up Bioware and let them take the time they always wanted to with this game on a future installment but that is a discussion for another thread. I don't believe dev's are out to screw on purpose, but I do believe that we are gonna get screwed, regardless. I think that they have simply made a mistake, or a series of mistakes, and my point along this thread is to point these mistakes out, hoping that I get noticed and it gets corrected before expansion goes live. If I believed this game wants to make me suffer for playing it, I wouldn't bother posting here complaining about it, because it would achieve nothing. If the devs wanted to screw, they wouldn't hide and pretend they don't, and wouldn't be affected when hearing that they have been "found out". My goal in all posts is to point out how we are getting / gonna get screwed, so that the devs who don't want us screwed notice, think things over, and undo the damage before it is done. If some of my points seem to be "angry" at the devs, they are indeed angry, but not the "I hate you, evil guys :jawa_evil:" type, but more like the "Gosh! Why are you so stupid? :jawa_wink:", because sometimes I really ask myself (and so does half the thread) why do devs do what they do (nerfs, buffs, discounts, etc.) without fully considering consequences? They seem to be always missing something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I feel the payout for the crystals is far too low IMO, especially considering the likely high cost of gifts when 5.0 launches. Crystals were one of the few ways solo folks could mitigate the pain of trying to level companions. I don't see command crates as a viable alternative for solo folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) I feel the payout for the crystals is far too low IMO, especially considering the likely high cost of gifts when 5.0 launches. Crystals were one of the few ways solo folks could mitigate the pain of trying to level companions. I don't see command crates as a viable alternative for solo folks. Use them to buy gifts or other items you can use or resell BEFORE 5.0 then. I did this last week and liquidated virtually all of my many thousands of crystals spread across my characters. On average, you can convert them to items that will yield 4-10x what the credit value that the conversion will be. Edited November 8, 2016 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eartharioch Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 Use them to buy gifts or other items you can use or resell BEFORE 5.0 then. I did this last week and liquidated virtually all of my many thousands of crystals spread across my characters. On average, you can convert them to items that will yield 4-10x what the credit value that the conversion will be. Exactly. The conversion rates aren't for people who are currently playing / paying attention, they are there for people who return after the update so that they don't lose everything. Legendary gifts are 30 common crystals, which will be 15K credits converted. I can sell them for ~80K right now or save them against higher credit prices when 5.0 hits. I'm pretty sure the vendor won't be selling them for < 15K. What I won't be doing is keeping more than 29 common crystals on any character. And I'm sure if I look hard enough I can find a better ROI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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