Please DO nerf HM Flashpoints or take them out of DvL events

[wadecounty]

I will give you that most HM FPs are relatively simple, but most take some skill, and the average player is going to need 208 gear at least to pass them. We can laugh and call them easy now, but lets be honest here, for the most part, I'm sure when we run these hm fps, were over geared as all hell and usually have a friend or two to help us out, been here for years, and ran most of these a billion times.

 

Let's put our shoes here in a new persons perspective, this is the only MMO he has played, only has 208 comm gear, and has never done these hm fps before. Can we really say the same statement now saying they require no effort and gear to do? Now does this warrant a nerf? No. These are challenging things to some people, I don't think we should talk down to them saying its easy as 1, 2, and 3. IMO, any flashpoints after vanilla should be in their own separate queue, and even a third for blood hunt, rishi, and lost island. They should not be giving the same rewards as something like hammer station, and they skill gap is considerably far harder when comparing the two. Does this mean however that they should be removed from the DVL event? No.

 

You don't need 208 gear its a myth, I have done them all in my DVL character with nothing but leveling gear I picked up in flashpoints, the highest rating on my gear is some 190 mods in my mainhand/offhand, bolster is a thing and it works. Stop misleading people.

 

Get gear if you suck at the game, that's true. If you still can't do it with gear, find a good guild to carry you through it. If that's not enough, accept you are awful at video games and you don't deserve to have everything handed to you.

[WheresMyWhisky]

They are not overtuned. You don't need raid gear to beat them. You need to know your class and play the mechanics. The game does nothing to encourage these 2 things so something like BH ends up looking like Mount Everest when it's, in fact, a hill in a very large, very flat valley. That's the problem and nerfing it (more, they already did once) is not the solution.

 

This, seriously its not over tuned in any way. You can do it in 192 gear all it requires is a tiny amount of time to learn a tiny amount about your class and to move out of red stuff

[peter_plankskull]

You don't need 208 gear its a myth, I have done them all in my DVL character with nothing but leveling gear I picked up in flashpoints, the highest rating on my gear is some 190 mods in my mainhand/offhand, bolster is a thing and it works. Stop misleading people.

 

Get gear if you suck at the game, that's true. If you still can't do it with gear, find a good guild to carry you through it. If that's not enough, accept you are awful at video games and you don't deserve to have everything handed to you.

 

Could you have anymore of a cruel condescending tone with a more cancerous attitude? Did you read anything after that or before perhaps? A AVERAGE player is going to need 208 gear to complete things like korriban, tython, and of course, the deadly blood hunt. Maybe you only had 190 gear... tops, but what about the people in your group? were they friends? what were there gear rating? have they done it before? if so, how many times?

 

Some people like that im not fat im obese guy doesn't want to put in the work or effort, and simply get the reward handed to him, but not everyone. We shouldn't give them the whole "git gud skreb" attitude, which does nothing other than fuel your own ego. We should encourage them to go into hard mode flashpoints and learn, not, "lol if you can't do it your bad."

[ChainLighning]

I don't really have a guild, so I pug. I pretty much only heal. All tacticals are no problem with any combo of group. All HM fps are no problem except Rishi, DoM, Tython, Korr, BH. I have tried pugging these and the groups just aren't good enough. Maybe I'm part of the problem too. But my complaint is... why are all the other HM fps doable with pug groups but those five? They are my nemesis of HM flashpoints.

 

You can say I haven't found the right group, but I'm done looking for them. I don't have the time or will anymore to bother. After DvL I started cancelling out of those flashpoints when they popped but realized that's not fair to others, so now I stopped all HMs.

 

I don't know the answer but I don't understand why they can't be adjusted to be like the other HMs or placed in another group.

 

You know I see a lot of people make comments similar to yours and I really feel for your situation. Can I make a suggestion?

 

Find a good active guild. Seriously. They are still out there.

 

I understand that sometimes defining what a "good" guild looks like is difficult but I hope you understand the sentiment I say this in. Overall look for a guild with a core group of players that have been around a while, that communicate well, that have experience with various classes in pressed situations. It will not only help you better grow in your class, but as was mentioned previously perhaps find others to partner with and grow as a group.

 

A lot of newer players tell me the various circumstances of why they not want to deal with a guild of this nature including not wanting to deal with an elitest attitude, which I understand. As a NiM raider myself who has been here since the beginning I can tell you that when I first started learning I was very surprised at how wiling to help the "elitest" players were. I didn't always like what they had to say but that was more about me than them. Now I am very glad however that I fought pass that mental roadblock. It opened up the game for me on so many levels. I'm probably not the greatest healer you'll ever meet but I can, and have, healed every fight in this game and that is in large part due to the great people who have helped me.

 

The FPs in your list that are supposedly hard, will become all too easy once you begin to understand various aspects that come with experience.

 

Now the other aspect is. well, it simply may not be you. Maybe the tanks need to be better with aggro and mechanics, maybe the DPS need to take less damage and use cooldowns, or maybe the DPS simply are not producing enough DPS to kill the boss (this last one is my bet cause good DPS solves a lot of problems). All of these things are possibilities. All of these possibilities however are something experienced SWTOR players can help you with.

 

If you are truly given up on finding any sort of group to help out and you have any questions you can feel to PM me on these forums. I have experience with every healing class and would be happy to help however I can. Additionally, I play on three servers and can help point you in the direction of some great guilds or we can group together.

 

Trust me, nefing the FPs isn't the answer; buffing the players in terms of their class knowledge, raid/boss fight awareness, and execution of mechanics is. It will make the game much more fun. I promise you, even for a story/solo/casual player.

 

One last thing; don't ever be afraid to wipe. Ever. I know after you try for weeks to find a group how deflating it can be. Don't give up. Everyone derps, everyone stands in stupid at times, everyone goes full "dummy" from time to time. Laugh it off and learn from it. Yes, there is a limit, I know, I am fully aware, but there is also evolution, change and growth. Really take the time to learn from the wipes you have.

 

Hope this doesn't sound "preachy" , not my intent. Meant to be encouraging cause I have been where it seems like you are and I really hope you are able to get these accomplished.

 

Good luck!

[AlrikFassbauer]

Overtuned ?! You must be joking. I downed LI the first day 4.0 dropped with a group in full 192

 

Well, you simply were a too good group.

In a good group, everything is oable.

And you do as if PUGs should be the same as you and yoiur group.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Apart from a very good reply :

 

A lot of newer players tell me the various circumstances of why they not want to deal with a guild of this nature including not wanting to deal with an elitest attitude, which I understand.

 

This is imho where the circle is closing :

 

People behaving like elitists (including calling others "plebs") -> makling people feel like being not wanted -> people playing rather solo because of that -> guilds finding no new players anymore -> guilds dwindle into nothingness -> solo players not finding any help for playing HM content anymore or even SM-content -> OPs anymore -> No-one playing "group content" anymore -> Bioware not making any new group content anymore because of lack of players playing group content.

 

Following this line of thought ( or "train of thought" ), the toxic elitist behaviour is the root of group content dwindling, or at least players being scared away from group content. PUGs complaining about not being able to master HM content because they are called "plebs". And Bioware of course reacting to that by offering solo content.

 

If this line of thought is right, then it is entirely because of the community that there is no new group content being made - and elitists of course won't believe that, because ... reasons. Like in the saying : "The bad ones are always the other ones".

 

An elitist might be good, but he or she fails as a contribution to community when NOT being able to teach.

Instead, the toxic community members (both in PvE & PvP ) rather scare away new players - because of being elitist. It's just what an elitist does.

t's almost as if someone had defined that someone who isn't toxic and does not scare away Newbies just is no elitist, cynically put.

"Community" consists of simply more than just stating "I've cleared this". Community consists of community members' contribution to community, and that is, among other thing, teaching Newbies. If no-one new comes to buy in that shop, the shop will close one day because all current customers become older and older and then die out.

Edited October 23, 2016 by AlrikFassbauer

[wadecounty]

Could you have anymore of a cruel condescending tone with a more cancerous attitude? Did you read anything after that or before perhaps? A AVERAGE player is going to need 208 gear to complete things like korriban, tython, and of course, the deadly blood hunt. Maybe you only had 190 gear... tops, but what about the people in your group? were they friends? what were there gear rating? have they done it before? if so, how many times?

 

Some people like that im not fat im obese guy doesn't want to put in the work or effort, and simply get the reward handed to him, but not everyone. We shouldn't give them the whole "git gud skreb" attitude, which does nothing other than fuel your own ego. We should encourage them to go into hard mode flashpoints and learn, not, "lol if you can't do it your bad."

 

I'm actually extremely patient in-game. I'm the guy that queues flashpoints all the time just for fun, explains any mechanics if needed but doesn't demand everyone do it his way, helps others with playing their class if asked but doesn't bother them about it if not. I love helping new players and the russian roulette that is group finder at times. It makes things interesting.

 

I just have zero patience for people who hop onto a forum of a dying game, that is already painfully easy, and demand nerfs. If you can't do it, that's fine, I understand. If you think the game has to be nerfed to cater specifically to you, I'm going to call you out. I'm not the greatest player ever, there are things I never did, I never got gatecrasher on tier or a bunch of other stuff. But I didn't make a thread complaining that it isn't fair and they have to nerf it so I can get it too, I understood certain things in the game should be difficult so there is a sense of accomplishment from actually doing them.

Edited October 23, 2016 by wadecounty

[ChainLighning]

Apart from a very good reply :

 

 

 

This is imho where the circle is closing :

 

People behaving like elitists (including calling others "plebs") -> makling people feel like being not wanted -> people playing rather solo because of that -> guilds finding no new players anymore -> guilds dwindle into nothingness -> solo players not finding any help for playing HM content anymore or even SM-content -> OPs anymore -> No-one playing "group content" anymore -> Bioware not making any new group content anymore because of lack of players playing group content.

 

Following this line of thought ( or "train of thought" ), the toxic elitist behaviour is the root of group content dwindling, or at least players being scared away from group content. PUGs complaining about not being able to master HM content because they are called "plebs". And Bioware of course reacting to that by offering solo content.

 

If this line of thought is right, then it is entirely because of the community that there is no new group content being made - and elitists of course won't believe that, because ... reasons. Like in the saying : "The bad ones are always the other ones".

 

An elitist might be good, but he or she fails as a contribution to community when NOT being able to teach.

Instead, the toxic community members (both in PvE & PvP ) rather scare away new players - because of being elitist. It's just what an elitist does.

t's almost as if someone had defined that someone who isn't toxic and does not scare away Newbies just is no elitist, cynically put.

"Community" consists of simply more than just stating "I've cleared this". Community consists of community members' contribution to community, and that is, among other thing, teaching Newbies. If no-one new comes to buy in that shop, the shop will close one day because all current customers become older and older and then die out.

 

While as I said I do think newer players are concerned about this sentiment I am not sure it is true that elitiest are simply overwhelming them. I know people have bad experiences, I know I have, but you have to fight through that.

 

Are there elitest in the game who troll players? Yes. Is there a lot of good players out there who are more than willing to help new players? Yes and I personally think the latter out weighs the former.

 

In the same way the elitest player should not troll or look down on new players, new players shouldn't assume they know everything and are doing everything right and call for nerfs. That really isn't the answer.

[Ryuku-sama]

This, seriously its not over tuned in any way. You can do it in 192 gear all it requires is a tiny amount of time to learn a tiny amount about your class and to move out of red stuff

 

Not this.

.

[aerockyul]

Not this.

.

 

 

It's getting harder to sympathize with some of you that continue to be obtuse about the struggles some people are having. I agree nerfing is not the answer but rubbing people's noses in how awesome you are isn't the answer either.

 

Some coordinated groups of players who have done the content dozens upon dozens of times and have intimate knowledge of their class and ability regardless of gear does not equal the majority of the game's population.

 

This group did something naked THEREFORE every single person in the game should be able to do exactly the same thing or they're just simply retarded. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.........

 

Edited October 23, 2016 by aerockyul

[BobFredJohn]

Ranting about elitists.

 

Perhaps theres a reason people are becoming elitist. I certainly am considering it. Every time I see someone doing something wrong and suggest differently they tell me to ****, stop being bossy and let them play their own way.

 

An example would be a run of BoI I was doing, we were at last boss and I was interrupting the bit your supposed to interrupt, which meant mine was on CD when the boss did his really powerful attack (the one that has the same animation as chain lightning but is single target).

 

After it knocks 70% hp off a slinger in the group, then kills him, then knocks 60-ish% off the guardian then proceeds to kill him and the 2 of them lie dead on the floor asking what happened. I offer an explaination, that the boss has a hard hitting attack but it can be interrupted if necessary, but I cant do it as I am busy doing an interrupt mechanic. And what response do I get? "don't patronise me," "stop telling me what to do," etc.

 

When 2 players are lying dead on the floor, asking what happened and I say "its a hard hitter but it can be interrupted" I get accused of being an arse (ofc I never interrupt it myself because I am doing the interrupt mechanics which means if the boss targets me with that attack I have my interrupt on cd and resort to a DCD).

 

Or a recent run of HM foundry I did with my sniper, there was a guardian tank and sorc healer, the other dps was kicked while I was zoning in and I zoned in to find the tank had put a vote kick on me straight away (and I mean straight away, the tank had tried to kick both dps before even starting the first convo). Lucky for them the kick on me failed, I say lucky for them because it turns out neither of them knew the fights. First boss the tank stands too close and dies to the glowing orange thingy. Healer c-resses them and they die to the next orange bit. I face tank the entire thing and due to dcd's and a bloody good healer never drop below 80% (and the fact that apart from the orange thing first boss of foundry is a joke).

 

Of course I say "mention if your new, I can explain stuff and save you repair bills". And the reply I get? "mention if your a ****, so I can stick you on ignore right at the start, noob." We get to HK and I write fight instructions which, when we pull, its apparent the tank didn't read, they die to the grey thing in the middle falling on them, are c-ressed and die to the exact same thing the second time, then I facetank and we complete.

 

Bonus boss I mention spit, tank dies to spit, c-res, with me whispering the mechanics to them but when I try it pops up in chat saying "<player name> is ignoring you", dies to spit, I facetank. Revan, tank gets thrown over the edge, I facetank. At the end the tank whispers "just wanted to say, its none of your business how I play" and when I try to reply it says they are ignoring me.

 

After **** like that its no wonder people are becoming elitist, now-a-days when I see people doing **** wrong I have an attitude of "I'll just do the mechanics myself" (like when I facetanked a whole run of HM kaon with my sniper because the person who queued as tank was actually dps, I never mentioned it the entire run because my gear was good enough for me to hold aggro) "let some other poor sod try teach this person how to play."

[Tsetso]

<snip>

I truly admire your patience. When something like that happens to me i just leave and requeue.

[Rolodome]

Perhaps theres a reason people are becoming elitist. I certainly am considering it. Every time I see someone doing something wrong and suggest differently they tell me to ****, stop being bossy and let them play their own way.

 

An example would be a run of BoI I was doing, we were at last boss and I was interrupting the bit your supposed to interrupt, which meant mine was on CD when the boss did his really powerful attack (the one that has the same animation as chain lightning but is single target).

 

After it knocks 70% hp off a slinger in the group, then kills him, then knocks 60-ish% off the guardian then proceeds to kill him and the 2 of them lie dead on the floor asking what happened. I offer an explaination, that the boss has a hard hitting attack but it can be interrupted if necessary, but I cant do it as I am busy doing an interrupt mechanic. And what response do I get? "don't patronise me," "stop telling me what to do," etc.

 

When 2 players are lying dead on the floor, asking what happened and I say "its a hard hitter but it can be interrupted" I get accused of being an arse (ofc I never interrupt it myself because I am doing the interrupt mechanics which means if the boss targets me with that attack I have my interrupt on cd and resort to a DCD).

 

Or a recent run of HM foundry I did with my sniper, there was a guardian tank and sorc healer, the other dps was kicked while I was zoning in and I zoned in to find the tank had put a vote kick on me straight away (and I mean straight away, the tank had tried to kick both dps before even starting the first convo). Lucky for them the kick on me failed, I say lucky for them because it turns out neither of them knew the fights. First boss the tank stands too close and dies to the glowing orange thingy. Healer c-resses them and they die to the next orange bit. I face tank the entire thing and due to dcd's and a bloody good healer never drop below 80% (and the fact that apart from the orange thing first boss of foundry is a joke).

 

Of course I say "mention if your new, I can explain stuff and save you repair bills". And the reply I get? "mention if your a ****, so I can stick you on ignore right at the start, noob." We get to HK and I write fight instructions which, when we pull, its apparent the tank didn't read, they die to the grey thing in the middle falling on them, are c-ressed and die to the exact same thing the second time, then I facetank and we complete.

 

Bonus boss I mention spit, tank dies to spit, c-res, with me whispering the mechanics to them but when I try it pops up in chat saying "<player name> is ignoring you", dies to spit, I facetank. Revan, tank gets thrown over the edge, I facetank. At the end the tank whispers "just wanted to say, its none of your business how I play" and when I try to reply it says they are ignoring me.

 

After **** like that its no wonder people are becoming elitist, now-a-days when I see people doing **** wrong I have an attitude of "I'll just do the mechanics myself" (like when I facetanked a whole run of HM kaon with my sniper because the person who queued as tank was actually dps, I never mentioned it the entire run because my gear was good enough for me to hold aggro) "let some other poor sod try teach this person how to play."

I feel bad for you man. Those folks sound like bottom-of-the-barrel bad attitude. If I were you in that situation, I think I would just leave. "If you want to play your own way, you can do this FP by yourself."

 

Some people need to learn the hard way by being abandoned in the dirt. That sounds so awful to say and in most circumstances I don't think that way, but when it comes to the attitudes of pugs... the stubbornness and mindlessness can really be off the charts. If they find that no one wants to stay in a group with them because they can't handle being told what mechanics are, then maybe they'll start to get that being a team player is supposed to be a part of group content.

 

I haven't ventured into HMs because I don't even want to try to mess with the kind of people you're describing. When there's consistent derping in a tactical, they're easy enough that I can usually just ignore it, sigh, and move on. I don't think I'd be able to in a HM.

 

I mean, there's just little things... like one guy on Malgus recently who insisted on staying out at range and occasionally pulled the boss away, even though we were trying to stack on the wall and were telling him to stack. And I was a healer too and had heals on lock, so it's not like it was a kolto duty thing. He wasn't even near kolto, just staying at range for no good reason.

 

Or the time a tank got pissed at me because he apparently wanted people to hit kolto for him and I asked him after a failed attempt on a fight, to be certain, if that's what he wanted, cause something about his request had been unclear. And the mere question of checking to be sure apparently frustrated.

 

Or the people who run around during boss fights and hit all of the koltos on cooldown (I don't know where this practice came from... well, see above lol... but on some bosses, it's a downright stupid strategy). Like hitting them for the tank, but it's like... if the person with low health doesn't hit it, they get maybe a 25-50% heal over time, if that. Nothing quite frustrates me like running to a kolto with low health and having someone else grab it before I can, when they have full health. Sometimes the wrong person hitting the kolto means you don't have it when you need it.

 

Urgh.

 

That said, a lot of my experiences have been relatively positive. But I'm also good at helping my groups avoid major failure. The true test is if the group struggles at all. Some people if they have to struggle in a pug, they will take it on the chin and go again. Some will bow out immediately, lose their ****, look for someone to blame, etc.

[Ryuku-sama]

 

It's getting harder to sympathize with some of you that continue to be obtuse about the struggles some people are having. I agree nerfing is not the answer but rubbing people's noses in how awesome you are isn't the answer either.

 

Some coordinated groups of players who have done the content dozens upon dozens of times and have intimate knowledge of their class and ability regardless of gear does not equal the majority of the game's population.

 

This group did something naked THEREFORE every single person in the game should be able to do exactly the same thing or they're just simply retarded. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.........

 

 

Are you telling me 4 people without any gear* can get more raw DPS and HPS than people with proper 190/208 gear?

 

It's not elitism to expect people to at least have a decent understanding of their classes. When I, as a tank, does more than 1/3rd of the damage there is to do in the fight, there is definitely something amiss. It still didn't stop the group from completing the fight.

 

So basically, to complete one of the worst fight in HM.... You need the DPS of 3 208 tank??? I don't know for you, but IO can do that by spamming their auto-attack in CGC.

 

Is it wrong of me to expect people to at the very least bother to read their tooltips? Just doing that would make most player able to complete HM with some work.

 

*Bolster only bolster stats to about level 190 gear when you have gear in your slots. For armor rating and weapon rating, it only bolster if you have something in it. This means a tank with 32% DR after most passives is gonna be squishy as **** to heal. This whole group would needs about 1-2k more eHPS just to keep everyone alive. The lower DPS stats and MH/OH rating makes it so these guys do about 50% of their normal DPS/HPS.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Ryuku-sama

[Zerileth]

Yes I understand that I need to find a good tank and a good guild to complete HM SOR FPs. Yes I need to look at the naked group and aspire to be them or come to terms with my suckiness. Yes they are incredibly easy if everyone reads their ability description and applies it in the fight....

 

My simple question is this and I'm not seeing an answer. Maybe it can't be answered by us. But why is it that I can take PUG A to Cademimu HM or the Cz HMs or Foundry HM or FE, etc... but that same PUG cannot get through the SOR HMs ( minus Rakata)? Should they be called Super HMs? Who's wrong here? Why did BW test the others at a "certain" level but the SORs weren't tested at the same level?

 

Just making these numbers up for my point: Bioware says hey 80% of our players can PUG all HMs but SORs. The other 5 Sors however can only be PUGGED by 4 elites or naked elites so let's just leave those as they are.

 

Those HM FPs are not tested at the same level as the other HMs.

 

So now someone will say: "that's fine. Learn to do the "harder" ones or come to terms with the fact that you suck."

But my question is: would it be soooo bad as to just put them in another group outside of the HM queue? You guys seem to get some pleasure out of knowing that some of us just can't get the SOR HM FPs done. If I can pug the others ones, I don't want to get a guild/good tank to finish what BW has lumped in as a HM FP that are not on level with the others.

 

Whew!

[nyrkverse]

But my question is: would it be soooo bad as to just put them in another group outside of the HM queue?

 

no, it wouldn't be bad at all.

 

that's actually something that was done before, when Lost Island and Kaon (I think it was Kaon, I wasn't playing back then) were new and they had their own category. And you could get a set bonus piece by running them so there was a very good incentive.

 

You guys seem to get some pleasure out of knowing that some of us just can't get the SOR HM FPs done. If I can pug the others ones, I don't want to get a guild/good tank to finish what BW has lumped in as a HM FP that are not on level with the others.

 

I don't get any pleasure, quite the opposite.

[VegasTheLost]

My simple question is this and I'm not seeing an answer. Maybe it can't be answered by us. But why is it that I can take PUG A to Cademimu HM or the Cz HMs or Foundry HM or FE, etc... but that same PUG cannot get through the SOR HMs ( minus Rakata)? Should they be called Super HMs? Who's wrong here? Why did BW test the others at a "certain" level but the SORs weren't tested at the same level?

 

For this, my solution would be to bring the other FPs to SoR levels. Plain and simple, they labeled as Hard Mode, so all of them should be on the same level and that level should be fine on BH/BoR/LI/Kaon level IMO. No nerf, but buff the others. I'm not trying to be an elitist here, but there is nothing in the flashpoints that cannot be done whit the skillset we have. All it takes is just read the tooltips and one can do that during leveling. And frankly if someone is interested in this game there is no excuse to not now the class at cap level. Maybe it's just me, but during leveling when I get a new skill I read the tooltip and try out that skill, what it does and with this I have a general idea regarding when should I use this. No need to read anything external for this. And with that said, if someone wants to do HM FPs, is it really much to have a general understanding regarding the class? Because all it takes to beat the HM FPs is to know the class. This game is not a rocket science.

 

Uhm, it turned out to be a rant, sorry about this. Zerileth, it is not aimed to you, trust me.

[nGAGE]

There's only one problem with HM FPs that can be resolved for the most part with one change in the game. Bolster doesn't work well enough to allow level 50s to queue up and beat them.

 

If it was truly intended for HM FPs to work for level 50s, then the Bolster should be able to deal with the worst case scenario: 4x level 50, with sub-148 gear.

 

On top of that... people should get familiar with FPs first, queuing up for HM FPs is just plain stupid. Players new to the game shouldn't queue for them and BW shouldn't allow them to queue until at least max level.

[Torvai]

A few points for different people. And I'm too lazy to work through the pages to quote them all so...

@ Alrik: The "elitists" you describe are mostly just above average players in my experience. Meaning they're able to clear most HM OPs after a few tries in their guild group, but as soon as they start pugging, things go south because they're not good enough to carry. And that's mostly the people you complain about.

Just as an example: A week or two back I joined a pug raid for DF HM, most of the group was from one guild, with me and two others(I think) pugs. First two bosses went more or less good. After ~10 Tries on Calphayus, where they didn't get the Mass Affliction add down in time, we called it. A day later I see the leader of said group complaining about bad players in GF on fleet.

Most of the really good players tend to think their part instead of insult new or bad players. And they give advice IF ASKED. If not, they just carry the group through and go on.

The people really being the elitist a-holes insulting everyone and telling everyone and their mother how good they are and how easy everything is normally aren't that good to begin with.

And the experienced players teach. Where do you think all that guides come from?

 

For the Blood Hunt naked video: I was the one recording it. And it's porpuse isn't to brag and show everyone how good we are or soemthing like that. It's to clarify a point: If a group of 4 players can do one of the hardest FP Bosses only utilizing bolster, it is doable for eveyone else if they are a) somewhat geared and b) have the slightest idea of how to play.

It isn't to say that people should stop gearing or anything. Just to show that if something like that is possible, if you fail, it's not gear, like many people claimed over and over again. Just look around in this subforum and you'll find a plethora of threads where people claim you need AT LEAST 220 rating gear to do this. This video was an answer to those claims. Nothing more.

 

 

And for FP's: I really get why people complain about certain FP's or bosses. Some just aren't in line with all the others in regards to difficulty. So, what BioWare should do, going into 5.0, in my opinion, is the following:

1) Leave solo FP's as they are. No real problem with them.

2) For tacticals, change some of the kolto stations locations(looking at you, Jos & Valk)

3) Change how to koltos work: They should simply give the same amount of heals to everyone, not more to the one clicking.

4) Don't Bolster everyone in a tactical to 65, but level sync higher players to the level of the FP like in the solo modes. And reintroduce level requirements for tacticals. Meaning, you unlock additional FP's while leveling up, but higher levels can queue for lower levels and get synced down. This way you kinda make sure noone gets into FP's that spoiler the story and also no one gets into something, their level and current skillset is simply not made for. For axample, a level 28 can queue for BT, Hammer Station, Athiss and Cad. Once they reach, say, 35, Bording party is added to their queue. And so on. a 65 on the other hand can queue for anything.

5) Since with the Galactic Command stuff, buff all the HM FP's. Make them all more or less on one level, but make them harder. Because, people don't need them anymore to gain gear or comms then, they can be made much harder. No one would need to do them anymore.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Torvai

[wadecounty]

A few points for different people. And I'm too lazy to work through the pages to quote them all so...

@ Alrik: The "elitists" you describe are mostly just above average players in my experience. Meaning they're able to clear most HM OPs after a few tries in their guild group, but as soon as they start pugging, things go south because they're not good enough to carry. And that's mostly the people you complain about.

Just as an example: A week or two back I joined a pug raid for DF HM, most of the group was from one guild, with me and two others(I think) pugs. First two bosses went more or less good. After ~10 Tries on Calphayus, where they didn't get the Mass Affliction add down in time, we called it. A day later I see the leader of said group complaining about bad players in GF on fleet.

Most of the really good players tend to think their part instead of insult new or bad players. And they give advice IF ASKED. If not, they just carry the group through and go on.

The people really being the elitist a-holes insulting everyone and telling everyone and their mother how good they are and how easy everything is normally aren't that good to begin with.

And the experienced players teach. Where do you think all that guides come from?

 

For the Blood Hunt naked video: I was the one recording it. And it's porpuse isn't to brag and show everyone how good we are or soemthing like that. It's to clarify a point: If a group of 4 players can do one of the hardest FP Bosses only utilizing bolster, it is doable for eveyone else if they are a) somewhat geared and b) have the slightest idea of how to play.

It isn't to say that people should stop gearing or anything. Just to show that if something like that is possible, if you fail, it's not gear, like many people claimed over and over again. Just look around in this subforum and you'll find a plethora of threads where people claim you need AT LEAST 220 rating gear to do this. This video was an answer to those claims. Nothing more.

 

 

And for FP's: I really get why people complain about certain FP's or bosses. Some just aren't in line with all the others in regards to difficulty. So, what BioWare should do, going into 5.0, in my opinion, is the following:

1) Leave solo FP's as they are. No real problem with them.

2) For tacticals, change some of the kolto stations locations(looking at you, Jos & Valk)

3) Change how to koltos work: They should simply give the same amount of heals to everyone, not more to the one clicking.

4) Don't Bolster everyone in a tactical to 65, but level sync higher players to the level of the FP like in the solo modes. And reintroduce level requirements for tacticals. Meaning, you unlock additional FP's while leveling up, but higher levels can queue for lower levels and get synced down. This way you kinda make sure noone gets into FP's that spoiler the story and also no one gets into something, their level and current skillset is simply not made for. For axample, a level 28 can queue for BT, Hammer Station, Athiss and Cad. Once they reach, say, 35, Bording party is added to their queue. And so on. a 65 on the other hand can queue for anything.

5) Since with the Galactic Command stuff, buff all the HM FP's. Make them all more or less on one level, but make them harder. Because, people don't need them anymore to gain gear or comms then, they can be made much harder. No one would need to do them anymore.

Pretty much this times a thousand.

 

If someone can do it without gear it doesn't mean "lol look how great I am", it means you can clearly do it in average gear that you are handed upon hitting 65 (208's).

 

If there is a difference in difficulty of HARD MODE flashpoints, they should skew so that they are all that difficult, not nerf to make them all easier, as there should be challenges that exist in the game. Otherwise you entirely lose the hardcore crowd, which is basically hanging on by a thread at the moment.

 

If we call you out on the forums for whining about difficulty that is NOT the same as what would happen in game. In game, I would probably work with you diligently to get past whatever obstacle was in our way, until the point you got abusive or quit.

Edited October 24, 2016 by wadecounty

[TheRandomno]

I would prefer the hard HMs were made easier and NiM flashpoints were added... but HMFPs are being renamed "Master" and not "Veteran" in KotET, so I guess that won't happen.

[Pirana]

A few points for different people. And I'm too lazy to work through the pages to quote them all so...

@ Alrik: The "elitists" you describe are mostly just above average players in my experience. Meaning they're able to clear most HM OPs after a few tries in their guild group, but as soon as they start pugging, things go south because they're not good enough to carry. And that's mostly the people you complain about.

Just as an example: A week or two back I joined a pug raid for DF HM, most of the group was from one guild, with me and two others(I think) pugs. First two bosses went more or less good. After ~10 Tries on Calphayus, where they didn't get the Mass Affliction add down in time, we called it. A day later I see the leader of said group complaining about bad players in GF on fleet.

Most of the really good players tend to think their part instead of insult new or bad players. And they give advice IF ASKED. If not, they just carry the group through and go on.

The people really being the elitist a-holes insulting everyone and telling everyone and their mother how good they are and how easy everything is normally aren't that good to begin with.

And the experienced players teach. Where do you think all that guides come from?

 

For the Blood Hunt naked video: I was the one recording it. And it's porpuse isn't to brag and show everyone how good we are or soemthing like that. It's to clarify a point: If a group of 4 players can do one of the hardest FP Bosses only utilizing bolster, it is doable for eveyone else if they are a) somewhat geared and b) have the slightest idea of how to play.

It isn't to say that people should stop gearing or anything. Just to show that if something like that is possible, if you fail, it's not gear, like many people claimed over and over again. Just look around in this subforum and you'll find a plethora of threads where people claim you need AT LEAST 220 rating gear to do this. This video was an answer to those claims. Nothing more.

 

 

And for FP's: I really get why people complain about certain FP's or bosses. Some just aren't in line with all the others in regards to difficulty. So, what BioWare should do, going into 5.0, in my opinion, is the following:

1) Leave solo FP's as they are. No real problem with them.

2) For tacticals, change some of the kolto stations locations(looking at you, Jos & Valk)

3) Change how to koltos work: They should simply give the same amount of heals to everyone, not more to the one clicking.

4) Don't Bolster everyone in a tactical to 65, but level sync higher players to the level of the FP like in the solo modes. And reintroduce level requirements for tacticals. Meaning, you unlock additional FP's while leveling up, but higher levels can queue for lower levels and get synced down. This way you kinda make sure noone gets into FP's that spoiler the story and also no one gets into something, their level and current skillset is simply not made for. For axample, a level 28 can queue for BT, Hammer Station, Athiss and Cad. Once they reach, say, 35, Bording party is added to their queue. And so on. a 65 on the other hand can queue for anything.

5) Since with the Galactic Command stuff, buff all the HM FP's. Make them all more or less on one level, but make them harder. Because, people don't need them anymore to gain gear or comms then, they can be made much harder. No one would need to do them anymore.

 

Excellent post. Gearing has very little to do with any of these, it's about mechanics. Instead of calling for more nerfs, learn your class and more importantly learn the mechanics of the fights.

[wadecounty]

Excellent post. Gearing has very little to do with any of these, it's about mechanics. Instead of calling for more nerfs, learn your class and more importantly learn the mechanics of the fights.

 

Mostly mechanics, there's still a couple of DPS and heal checks (not nightmare raid level obviously but enough so that if in 208's or less you must play your class properly to clear them).

 

For DPS checks, its mostly just first boss of Blood Hunt and second boss of Korriban. For heal checks, I'd say second boss of Manaan, last boss of Blood Hunt, and last boss of Tython. The rest is just mechanics checks meaning if you just mash buttons, as long as you do the mechanics right you'll eventually win.

 

And sadly, for the majority of hard modes, there are no checks meaning so long as you're with a competent group, you can run around and mash buttons and still clear it. And if you're with an incompetent group but you are a good player who knows what you're doing, you can carry them by yourself almost.

 

I saw someone else suggest there should be nightmare flashpoints to supplant hard modes, but why not just accept that you have tacticals for if you can't do the hard modes? The ones that aren't difficult, are basically still tactical level anyways, just without the kolto stations.

Edited October 24, 2016 by wadecounty

[Pirana]

Mostly mechanics, there's still a couple of DPS and heal checks (not nightmare raid level obviously but enough so that if in 208's or less you must play your class properly to clear them).

 

For DPS checks, its mostly just first boss of Blood Hunt and second boss of Korriban. For heal checks, I'd say second boss of Manaan, last boss of Blood Hunt, and last boss of Tython. The rest is just mechanics checks meaning if you just mash buttons, as long as you do the mechanics right you'll eventually win.

 

And sadly, for the majority of hard modes, there are no checks meaning so long as you're with a competent group, you can run around and mash buttons and still clear it. And if you're with an incompetent group but you are a good player who knows what you're doing, you can carry them by yourself almost.

 

I saw someone else suggest there should be nightmare flashpoints to supplant hard modes, but why not just accept that you have tacticals for if you can't do the hard modes? The ones that aren't difficult, are basically still tactical level anyways, just without the kolto stations.

 

Correct, hence my second sentence. Gear will assist you on certain bosses, namely the ones you mentioned, but won't save you unless know the mechanics, that's where the two go hand in hand, everything else is nearly a mash fest. Unfortunately, with how easy this game has become over the years, the slightest adversity one comes across, it must be too hard, therefore it must be nerfed.

[BobFredJohn]

For this, my solution would be to bring the other FPs to SoR levels. Plain and simple, they labeled as Hard Mode, so all of them should be on the same level and that level should be fine on BH/BoR/LI/Kaon level IMO. No nerf, but buff the others. I'm not trying to be an elitist here, but there is nothing in the flashpoints that cannot be done whit the skillset we have. All it takes is just read the tooltips and one can do that during leveling. And frankly if someone is interested in this game there is no excuse to not now the class at cap level. Maybe it's just me, but during leveling when I get a new skill I read the tooltip and try out that skill, what it does and with this I have a general idea regarding when should I use this. No need to read anything external for this. And with that said, if someone wants to do HM FPs, is it really much to have a general understanding regarding the class? Because all it takes to beat the HM FPs is to know the class. This game is not a rocket science.

 

Uhm, it turned out to be a rant, sorry about this. Zerileth, it is not aimed to you, trust me.

 

This is pretty much my take on the issue. These things are called "hard mode" after all. If a fight can be cleared while randomly using abilities (rather than in proper rotation with procs etc) and ignoring mechanics then its not really "hard" is it?

 

And to add my 2 cents to the whole "just read tool-tips bit" I pretty much concur.

 

Another anecdote. I levelled my sorc as a healer back in 2.x. After 4.0 came out I decided to change it to dps (I merged 2 servers and decided 3 tanks, 3 healers, 1 mdps and 1 rdps on each faction was skewed so changed some classes so I had 2 tanks 2 healers 2 mdps and 2 rdps on each faction).

 

However I don't use my sorc often, if I need to play imp rdps I use my sniper because its better geared and was my very first character (we all feel special about our first character don't we?)

 

As such my sorc got a run for the first time in 4 and a half months a couple of days ago. I had completely forgotten lightning rotation so I opened my discipline tree, read every single proc and ability I had and figured out a rotation in my head. I then ran a couple heroics to polish it out, make some adjustments then queued for HM fp's.

 

Granted I could have just joined group finder, ticked healer with my lightning sorc for a faster pop then spam force storm the entire mission. But seeing as it only takes 15-20 minutes to re-learn the class, and considering how much easier that makes things for the 3 poor souls who have to queue with my rusty old sorc.

 

Infact which is quicker, writing a post on forums about nerfs and tough enemies or this:

1. read an entire discipline tree

2. move around quickbars so rotation buttons are bunched up in a natural order (my sniper is 3, f, 2, 2, ,f ,ctrl+e, ctrl+r, 4, f, 3, f, e, 3, f, 6.....etc)

3. run a couple heroics to polish it out a bit

4. listen to the guy in the group who writes "I main the spec you use, you should do x before y because of proc z"

Edited October 25, 2016 by BobFredJohn