Please DO nerf HM Flashpoints or take them out of DvL events

[BobFredJohn]

I agree fp's are easier as a tank, though my personal preference is jugg rather than pt, just because the jugg dcd's are so op that I can survive most things even without heals.

 

I find the benefit of tanking is that most mechanics in most fights are done by the tank.

Moving big red in kaon to the barrels - tanks job

keeping bloke away from dogs in first boss mando - tanks job

moving sandstorm boss where it needs to be - tanks job

 

The list goes on, but I cannot say how many times I have gone into a HM fp with a dps (usually my sniper) and watch the tank pull only to realise he has no idea what he is doing, then working frantically to rip aggro so I can position boss properly, only to have the tank taunt back instantly (why is it pug tanks never taunt when they need control, but taunt instantly when I need control?)

 

So yes tanking is easier because if **** hits the fan you can sort it out yourself (except, for example, missed cleanse mechanics on the final boss of atheiss, I have never seen any pug healer doing that properly), and jugg tanking is easiest because if the healer cant keep up dcd's will do just as well as a bad healer.

[Deaconik]

It's not about tanks being easy but that most of the people in group finder are DPS players. Just check sometimes the fleet general chat how many DPS players are searching for tank/healer.

[Iffyluse]

No matter how much you nerf the content there will still be awful incompetent lazy people who do not have the common decency to look up the basics of how to play and gear their characters and then complain on forums that the content is too hard.

 

What nerfing of HM Flashpoints will not get rid of:

 

Tanks in alacrity/crit gear with no concept of what threat is

DPS who just use basic attacks and enrage the bosses

DPS who attack before the tank and just AoE everything

People who stand in red circles of AoE damage

People deaf and blind to useful advice or explanation of the upcoming boss's mechanics

 

I understand the concept of slowing the caravan to the speed of the slowest horse but there are some paraplegic brainless horses in our caravan.

 

HM flashpoints aren't for people who are just here for the story and are a "casual gamer that plays everything on Novice difficulty". The harder group content requires the understanding of what stat ratios your character needs, full use and understanding of your abilities and the mechanics of the enemy encounters. 90% of the game content is already pandered to those casual kind of players, how about leave flashpoints and ops who people who like a challenge, k thx. HM flashpoints are fine as they are.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Iffyluse

[nepochop]

There are days...yes "entire whole days" that nobody queue up for HM flashpoints. Put aside the complexity of HMs nature for a min and at least focus on that topic.

 

Why is there is nobody doing them? All I know is that most people are not happy with incentives. Why do it when you can do "easier and much more populated" tact versions. The system is broken. I have not seen other MMOs that have a failed PvE queue system and just putting some light on the subject from that perspective.

 

To those who say why dont you do it with a guild? I do that as well. Even in my guild most people wont touch it. If you have any guild that does them frequently send an invite to change my mind. However, these are not a function of a guild but of a broken PvE queue system beyond broken.

 

OMG mate, Im now trying to finish the HM FPS achievements at an insane rate and am quing for them morning ,lunch and evenings, I get pops all day!!

[nepochop]

As for carrying people in HM fps, you gotta be a healer, tank just wont do it. If the healing sucks, its pretty much over. Most of the time we kick healer and use companion and finish the HM fps. Companions are better dps/heals than 80% of the people entering HM FPS. Anyway my quing strategy is:

 

1. Go rep side sage healer, que for missing HM FPS

no pop

2. Go imp side sorc healer, que for missing HM FPS

no pop

3. Go imp Assasin tank, que for missing HM FPS

no pop

4. Go rep Shadow tank, que for missing HM FPS

 

The thing is i ALWAYS get a insta pop for one of these so i rarely go through all 4 steps. BUT i preffer healing since thats when you can carry the group (and mostly do) even if they are ****. As healer you can same them when they are standing in stuff and even offdps to helpt them if they suck.

[Tsetso]

Mostly yes, but can't do it for Foundry/BP rep and maelstrom and the other one can't do imp. Edited November 1, 2016 by Tsetso

[Deaconik]

As for carrying people in HM fps, you gotta be a healer, tank just wont do it. If the healing sucks, its pretty much over. Most of the time we kick healer and use companion and finish the HM fps. Companions are better dps/heals than 80% of the people entering HM FPS. Anyway my quing strategy is:

 

1. Go rep side sage healer, que for missing HM FPS

no pop

2. Go imp side sorc healer, que for missing HM FPS

no pop

3. Go imp Assasin tank, que for missing HM FPS

no pop

4. Go rep Shadow tank, que for missing HM FPS

 

The thing is i ALWAYS get a insta pop for one of these so i rarely go through all 4 steps. BUT i preffer healing since thats when you can carry the group (and mostly do) even if they are ****. As healer you can same them when they are standing in stuff and even offdps to helpt them if they suck.

 

My experience says that if tank is *place here some cursing* then being healer is not what your bank account wants The last time I queued as a healer I was tanking the whole trash in LI HM. And believe me, the cooldown of force barrier is too long Tank was literally tanking the only mob he was hitting and I was tanking the snipers. It was beautiful, I enraged and quit very quickly.

[Tsetso]

My experience says that if tank is *place here some cursing* then being healer is not what your bank account wants The last time I queued as a healer I was tanking the whole trash in LI HM. And believe me, the cooldown of force barrier is too long Tank was literally tanking the only mob he was hitting and I was tanking the snipers. It was beautiful, I enraged and quit very quickly.

 

Would be great if we could enrage too. Wouldn't mind hitting for 200% on my mara

[nepochop]

My experience says that if tank is *place here some cursing* then being healer is not what your bank account wants The last time I queued as a healer I was tanking the whole trash in LI HM. And believe me, the cooldown of force barrier is too long Tank was literally tanking the only mob he was hitting and I was tanking the snipers. It was beautiful, I enraged and quit very quickly.

 

Yeah i know what you mean. There are times when i preffer this, since the only person i have to heal is myself, so its actually quite easy. No one else has aggro and is taking dmg, so Sage healer tanking is a good thing

[BobFredJohn]

My experience says that if tank is *place here some cursing* then being healer is not what your bank account wants The last time I queued as a healer I was tanking the whole trash in LI HM. And believe me, the cooldown of force barrier is too long Tank was literally tanking the only mob he was hitting and I was tanking the snipers. It was beautiful, I enraged and quit very quickly.

 

Snipers in LI are nothing to do with tanking.

 

They are always silvers and 2 dps can easily kill a silver within 4 seconds.....ooh what a coincidence, the interrupt ability stops the enemy using it for 4 seconds.

 

Could it be that the dps should just tunnel-vision the sniper, with an interrupt too.

 

On the pulls with more than one sniper, the terminate skill has a 4 or 5 seconds cast, while cc is 2 seconds and all healer classes have cc. Ofc if its scoundrel healer just stealth cc it. With more than 1 sniper the healer casts cc on 1 of them (after tank has pulled to avoid aggro issues, they can get away with that because cc casts faster than terminate) both dps obliterate the other sniper then either mop up in standard fashion or break cc to take out other sniper.

 

and as an aside, the infected mercenaries in kaon can be dealt with in the same way, except it may be necessary to pre-cast the cc and tank leaps in during its cast. - I cant stand tanks who see someone casting cc so they wait until its complete before attacking, if you see a cc cast leap in while its casting so you still get to pull first.

 

Of course, having written all that there will still be people who just say "LI trash is too strong" and "nerf infected mercs in kaon they are invincible."

[Deaconik]

Snipers in LI are nothing to do with tanking.

 

They are always silvers and 2 dps can easily kill a silver within 4 seconds.....ooh what a coincidence, the interrupt ability stops the enemy using it for 4 seconds.

 

Could it be that the dps should just tunnel-vision the sniper, with an interrupt too.

 

On the pulls with more than one sniper, the terminate skill has a 4 or 5 seconds cast, while cc is 2 seconds and all healer classes have cc. Ofc if its scoundrel healer just stealth cc it. With more than 1 sniper the healer casts cc on 1 of them (after tank has pulled to avoid aggro issues, they can get away with that because cc casts faster than terminate) both dps obliterate the other sniper then either mop up in standard fashion or break cc to take out other sniper.

 

and as an aside, the infected mercenaries in kaon can be dealt with in the same way, except it may be necessary to pre-cast the cc and tank leaps in during its cast. - I cant stand tanks who see someone casting cc so they wait until its complete before attacking, if you see a cc cast leap in while its casting so you still get to pull first.

 

Of course, having written all that there will still be people who just say "LI trash is too strong" and "nerf infected mercs in kaon they are invincible."

 

Tanks in general are for tanking hard hitting mobs. E.g. Bosses. If tank isn't tanking hard hitting snipers then tank is doing a bad job. I can understand ignoring them when mobs are too far away from each other but not in this tight corridor(mostly). Sorry, I am too oldschool to fix others errors.

 

So, I can see it happens once in a while, because stun, delay, wrong mob taunted, whatever. If that's happening all the time I don't have enough money, nor patience.

[themachinemann]

I get that you're frustrated with not being able to complete them. We were all once new players who thought content was impossible if we couldn't do it with our current skill and gear set. However, most of them can be done with 2 or 3 quality people. Yes, blood hunt hm 2 man. Youtube it. Lost Island, also 2m. Haven't tried manaan, rishi etc with less than 3 but bet it could be done.

There have already been a lot of nerfs to various flashpoints, we can't make hard mode too easy for new players, otherwise there's really no point having them. If you don't want a challenge, the game has plenty of other things for you to do. As for DvL, get some friends and run through or I'm sure you could pay some raiders to carry you through them all, if it comes to that.

[KendraP]

I did Lost Island HM for DVL with shadow 'tank''. Couple wipes on each boss, and the 'tank' is the first one to melt. Also I noticed that I don't get any heal during spiting phase on 2nd boss. I was thinking that this could be healing issue, until I checked the 'tank' gear.... PVP DPS gear.... 0_o

 

Wipes repeatedly on the last boss, the 'tank' said sorry & left, got replacement tank from a friend guild, a real tank this time, one shooted the last boss

 

And this is entirely my point. Tell the people who are new to play tanks and if they do, this happens. I was stupid once too, swtor was my first mmo. So I once did stuff like vig-specced guardian in soresu form. It doesn't matter for solo content (do whatever you want if it's not affecting me), but I googled stuff before I strated doing group content and found I was doing it all wrong.

 

Perhaps I got butt hurt too soon, the swap to all tacticals got me after I was booted from 3 groups because all I'd do was slow them down.

 

And yes I know dps have to pay attention too. My point is that, in hm fp, by and large there really arent a whole lot of dps mechanics to worry about. I will admit, not many tanking mechanics either. If you have a good healer, honestly you can probably just derp through most hm fp. As for the athiss cleanse on the last boss, yes I prefer to cleanse it. But it is entirely possible to heal through it. I've healed through it when I accidently cleansed the wrong person before. Someone mentioned that tanking was easier because you were in charge of positioning and many of the mechanics. OK yes I agree, we are. That is expressly why, perhaps, someone new to the game might prefer not having to take that responsibilty. I'm not saying it can't be done, but you have to be willing to admit you're new. Which, in this game, causes half the group to leave sometimes. They don't want to deal with bad tanks or healers in hm fp. When they bother doing hm fp anyway.

 

I still say you can carry a bad dps far easier than a bad tank or healer. Sorry but that is my humble opinon because I've had my terrible dps carried, whereas I count myself a decent tank or healer. Not the greatest I admit but not pathetic like my dps. And I have been in groups with bad tanks or healers where I'm usually filling the opposite role. It's a pain. With a bad dps or two? Its probably just a bit slow if the tank and healer are good.

 

As for the faster queue times, well yeah that's a benefit of tanking (or healing really). I didnt mean anything on this front. Part of the reason I learned tanking back in the day of SM FPs was because of the faster queue times.

 

As others have mentioned being a healer is the easiest way to carry in many HM FP. Ok sure, I think I said earlier that a good healer could heal through much derpiness. This is to a certain degree of course. I've done some sage and scoundrel tanking in HM FPs, which only works to a certain extent. The point I'm trying to make is it shouldn't be necessary to healer tank something, because you should have a competent tank in hm. Which is probably not someone that has to he taught what a taunt is. The tacticals don't teach roles either, so someone just starting HM after levelling might have never had to truly preform their role before.

[Deaconik]

I get that you're frustrated with not being able to complete them. We were all once new players who thought content was impossible if we couldn't do it with our current skill and gear set. However, most of them can be done with 2 or 3 quality people. Yes, blood hunt hm 2 man. Youtube it. Lost Island, also 2m. Haven't tried manaan, rishi etc with less than 3 but bet it could be done.

There have already been a lot of nerfs to various flashpoints, we can't make hard mode too easy for new players, otherwise there's really no point having them. If you don't want a challenge, the game has plenty of other things for you to do. As for DvL, get some friends and run through or I'm sure you could pay some raiders to carry you through them all, if it comes to that.

 

Uh, you do realize I have legendary DvL for months now(finished in August gree event). That I finished LI several times? Not sure why this sits right bellow my post when I repeatedly stated that I finished the FP. I just don't have the patience to learn someone how his role is supposed to be played when he can clearly see mobs attacking other players than tank.

 

Edit> To set you in a better picture, I healed through several NIMs so I can safely say I know how to heal. I just don't want to spend my whole day on 1 FP HM with a stupid tank.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Deaconik

[KendraP]

Edit> To set you in a better picture, I healed through several NIMs so I can safely say I know how to heal. I just don't want to spend my whole day on 1 FP HM with a stupid tank.

 

This lol. Why I don't generally do HM FP. The reward isn't worth dealing with the effort for BH, LI, Rishi, etc. Especially when there's a decent chance you end up with a group that has someone that has no idea what they're doing but thinks they doand won't listen to advice/tactics.

[Deaconik]

This lol. Why I don't generally do HM FP. The reward isn't worth dealing with the effort for BH, LI, Rishi, etc. Especially when there's a decent chance you end up with a group that has someone that has no idea what they're doing but thinks they doand won't listen to advice/tactics.

 

I do that when I am bored and some people there are good players. Honestly, many newbies are open to advice, it's not that huge pain as it looks But yes, not all HMs are nice and fluffy

[themachinemann]

Uh, you do realize I have legendary DvL for months now(finished in August gree event). That I finished LI several times? Not sure why this sits right bellow my post when I repeatedly stated that I finished the FP.

 

my post was regarding the original post, several subsequent posts and just generally my thoughts on the topic of nerfing HM Flashpoints. If I were addressing yours, I would have quoted it. Like I am doing here. Not everything revolves around you

[KendraP]

I do that when I am bored and some people there are good players. Honestly, many newbies are open to advice, it's not that huge pain as it looks But yes, not all HMs are nice and fluffy

 

I'm not saying they should be nice or fluffy. I'm saying the tactuals don't teach new players how to play their role very well. And yeah, I've had good experiences as well. When I'm trying to recruit people for my guild I tend to run FPs and SM Ops and try to get the people that aren't being ridiculous. I don't mind new as long as they will simply say that and listen to the mechanics and try to follow it through. I will even handle wipes as long as progress is being made. Just saying that, by and large, the reward for HM FP is simply not good enough for me to play the format that often. SM Ops give better rewards for often times less effort.

[Pietrastor]

Kaon/LI used to be in separate queue bracket in 1.0 cycle for a reason. With level sync returning them to endgame, it's simply puzzling why they're not in separate bracket again (along with Rishi/BH).

[Torvai]

Kaon/LI used to be in separate queue bracket in 1.0 cycle for a reason. With level sync returning them to endgame, it's simply puzzling why they're not in separate bracket again (along with Rishi/BH).

 

And what good did it do? People queued for it anyways, wiped on the first boss and came here demanding nerfs, which ultimately happened.

[nepochop]

Uh, you do realize I have legendary DvL for months now(finished in August gree event). That I finished LI several times? Not sure why this sits right bellow my post when I repeatedly stated that I finished the FP. I just don't have the patience to learn someone how his role is supposed to be played when he can clearly see mobs attacking other players than tank.

 

Edit> To set you in a better picture, I healed through several NIMs so I can safely say I know how to heal. I just don't want to spend my whole day on 1 FP HM with a stupid tank.

 

Finished that one among the first

[Pietrastor]

And what good did it do? People queued for it anyways, wiped on the first boss and came here demanding nerfs, which ultimately happened.

 

Different gear requirements were specified and the rewards were MUCH better. If they still qued and wiped at least they knew what they were signing up for. What the Finder is doing now is blatantly lying that a fresh-50 team can queue for HM LI/BH just with bolster and finish it. Just not gonna happen. The rewards are a joke to, several level below what's needed to actually beat the dps/heal requirements in multiple of the fights in these 2 FPs

Edited November 5, 2016 by Pietrastor

[Memo-]

Different gear requirements were specified and the rewards were MUCH better. If they still qued and wiped at least they knew what they were signing up for. What the Finder is doing now is blatantly lying that a fresh-50 team can queue for HM LI/BH just with bolster and finish it. Just not gonna happen. The rewards are a joke to, several level below what's needed to actually beat the dps/heal requirements in multiple of the fights in these 2 FPs

 

LI can definitely be cleared by a scrubby lv50 group. The only worthwhile mechanic is the knockback on Sav-Rak, it's a breeze otherwise. Every other mechanic is very forgiving in LI HM's current iterance.

[lcharas]

Well, LI requires a group of two players after all, so it certainy is a lot more difficult than Battle of Rishi for example...

Don't "nerf" bosses by lowering damage output or required damage input. If there is anything to be changed,

remove the RNG @Sav-Rakk (have certain positions for any jump or have some sort of indicator where it's going to jump next) and remove the pet-instakill mechanic @Transgene Probe 11 (allow them to be kited passively during icicle phases).