Why Macros belong in TOR.

[Killadrix]

I 100% agree that there should be macros in this game.

 

Not like the Rift system, but more like WoW.

 

I don't know why people are so against it, it makes you highly efficient.

[bobaTBS]

YIt is my opinion that requiring players to manually click a target with a small, buggy hitbox while already engaged with another enemy, is at best an artificial increase of the skill cap, and one that has no place in a truly competitive setting.

 

Artificial? Are you serious? So apparently targeting people in a game is just an artificial way of increasing that games skill cap. If reaction time really isn't your problem (which I doubt after that post) but the buggy hitboxes don't you think then that the priority should be fixing hitboxes instead of implementing macros as a workaround?

[Baracca]

Essentially what you want is this:

 

One button that does all the work for you.

 

Get some skill and you won't need macros. GG

 

The problem IS most people don't understand what a macro is. A macro is not the BS crap that Rift has where you make a script to use whatever skill is ready and mash that one button over and over.

 

A macro is a tool to allow you to remove the need for 50 key binds and hot bar slots. For example. Why do I need 2 buttons to accomplish the following? Stealth and an attack that requires me to be in stealth to use it? With a macro, I can use one button to stealth when I'm not in stealth and hit it again when I want to attack. OR! I can use a long cool down oh crap skill and use a med pack at the same time. How about healers? Healers can use macros to target the tank first, then cast a shield very similar to how I used to use earth shield in WOW.

 

Stop the negative bashing and you might learn something useful.

[_compton_]

There is already built in focus modifer, set focus target, target previous enemy, target previous friend. You still need same awarness.

Or are you asking for macro that automaticly set focus to nearest healer or something?.

 

Whats needed is better working ui(maybe bigger hit boxes?) and smoother animations with no delay/self roots on instants etc.

 

I've realised thanks to SWTOR that it doesn't really take anymore keybinds to do focus interupts/set focus without macro compared to what i had in WoW, actully less because i remade my keybinds :X.

 

I'm not asking for any kind of automation, no. If such a system exists within the game and functions in a highly similar or identical fashion to a focus macro in WoW (if you have any experience with that game) I did not find it after a rather exhaustive search of the options/interface menu. If anyone needs clarification on how focus frames/focus macros function, I'd be more than happy to explain.

 

@Boba

Having to manually continuously switch back and forth between two targets that you'd like to be able to engage effectively is an artificial increase in skill cap, yes, and it detracts from the overall flow and speed of the combat. There's nothing tactical about it, it is simply a clunky, awkward and outdated method. As I stated earlier, I could make an argument similar to the one you are using against macros against the use of keybinds - forcing players to click all of their abilities would be another way to artificially increase the skill cap - that does not make it any less clunky, awkward or un-necessary.

Edited December 28, 2011 by _compton_

[Thaonnor]

So to the OP... by inhibits you from playing to your full extent do you mean inhibits you from using an automated macro from playing to the full extent for you? Because without macros it is hardly right to say it is unfair... no one has macros and you are just as good as the skills you bring to the game, not as good as the macros you looked up online.

 

Macros have many uses as far as efficiency goes. But as I've always said... having a macro in game simply means that there is an inefficiency in the gameplay that needs to be fixed. If I have to macro to do something effectively, the game developers have done a poor job of creating that system.

 

Games are fine without macros. I know people love them, and have gotten used to playing with them, but given a bit of time, I'm sure you'll learn to do things without them.

[OldSkoolFan]

You start with "I reached for it and it wasn't there."

 

I stopped reading after that.

[bobaTBS]

@Boba

Having to manually continuously switch back and forth between two targets that you'd like to be able to engage effectively is an artificial increase in skill cap, yes, and it detracts from the overall flow and speed of the combat. There's nothing tactical about it, it is simply a clunky, awkward and outdated method. As I stated earlier, I could make an argument similar to the one you are using against macros against the use of keybinds - forcing players to click all of their abilities would be another way to artificially increase the skill cap - that does not make it any less clunky, awkward or un-necessary.

 

You got those two mixed up, focus macro is the artificial thing here, targeting multiple targets and using different skills on them is a normal thing, nothing artificial about that. And ofcourse it feels clunky to you when you never did that, you had the easy way of doing that so far which doesn't require much skill and speed.

 

And no you couldn't use that argument, because this game is meant to be played with mouse and keyboard. Skills are assigned to keys by default (1-12). Now you claim that this game was not intended to be played without mouseover and focus macro, and that they already said that they are implementing it, yet you haven't backed that up with any quotes or links whatsoever.

[Thaonnor]

I 100% agree that there should be macros in this game.

 

Not like the Rift system, but more like WoW.

 

I don't know why people are so against it, it makes you highly efficient.

 

It makes you more efficient than you would be without an automated system is the problem. It takes another level of awareness out of the game, contrary to what people claim.

 

All day I hear people talk about how it adds complexity, when in fact all it does is add complexity for the .0001% who actually create the macros, and adds none for the majority of macro users who simply find them online or get them from their friends. Without macros, you are at a plenty efficient level, and everyone is on the same level. With macros, you are questionably more efficient than a normal player who is not using macros, giving you an advantage not due to skill or understanding complexity, but because you took 10 minutes to google the macro that will "make you more efficient".

 

No macros are fine with me. All they do is add another equation into the mix that makes PvP unnatural as hell IMO. You want a macro that targets the nearest healer, right click your mouse and look around for the healer. How is adding a button that does things for you in any way adding to the competitiveness or fun of the game other than for those who believe they will be superior with macros?

 

Please respond with your normal big words "you just don't understand man" response... I'm sure I haven't convinced you otherwise, but perhaps the sane people will read this post and understand it.

[_compton_]

So to the OP... by inhibits you from playing to your full extent do you mean inhibits you from using an automated macro from playing to the full extent for you? Because without macros it is hardly right to say it is unfair... no one has macros and you are just as good as the skills you bring to the game, not as good as the macros you looked up online.

 

Macros have many uses as far as efficiency goes. But as I've always said... having a macro in game simply means that there is an inefficiency in the gameplay that needs to be fixed. If I have to macro to do something effectively, the game developers have done a poor job of creating that system.

 

Games are fine without macros. I know people love them, and have gotten used to playing with them, but given a bit of time, I'm sure you'll learn to do things without them.

 

There is nothing automated about focus macros. By inhibits, I mean that I believe gameplay is faster and more fluid when focus macros are present, and that I can play more efficiently and effectively when permitted to utilize the focus system.

 

I had already adapted to the absence of macros before I queued for my first warzone - that does not mean that their absence did not detract from my experience or decrease my enjoyment - it did. Not because I was incapable of playing - the converse actually, I excelled - but because the combat felt awkward and clunky in comparison.

[_compton_]

You got those two mixed up, focus macro is the artificial thing here, targeting multiple targets and using different skills on them is a normal thing, nothing artificial about that. And ofcourse it feels clunky to you when you never did that, you had the easy way of doing that so far which doesn't require much skill and speed.

 

And no you couldn't use that argument, because this game is meant to be played with mouse and keyboard. Skills are assigned to keys by default (1-12). Now you claim that this game was not intended to be played without mouseover and focus macro, and that they already said that they are implementing it, yet you haven't backed that up with any quotes or links whatsoever.

 

@ Boba - Read the OP, please. I think you've made a rather glaring oversight. Also, if a system can be improved... Why shouldn't it be? You didn't address my statement that manually clicking between targets does not raise the skill cap from a tactical standpoint... MMO combat is inherently more tactical than most, because you aren't required to aim your abilities... Are you going to continue to reiterate and rehash all these arguments that have already been addressed, or do you have anything new to add? Also: by "easy" did you mean 'superior' or perhaps 'more efficient'?

 

And yes, the game was designed to be played using the mouse and keyboard - which can be used in a variety of ways. You could either use your mouse primarily to use abilities and your keyboard to move, or the converse - use your mouse to move primarily, and your keyboard to activate abilities. Your argument is invalid.

 

@Thoa not sure if you're addressing me or not, but my response is on the previous page. Also am I reading your post wrong, or did you really imply that I am insane?

 

In addition, if you had actually bothered to read anything that I had written, either the OP or the many clarifying statements I've made since, you'd understand that none of what I am advocating for is anything even related to a "automatically target the nearest healer" button.

Edited December 28, 2011 by _compton_

[WorkForFood]

Morning,

 

I've played a few MMOs, not hardcore by any stretch but in my time I've had the chance to try a few macros out and several mods as well.

 

If I had the choice macro support would never enter the game. It automates the game too much. Try using your manual dexterity to hit keys. Pay more active attention to situations and anticipate when you need to burst heal a player who is getting focus fired.

 

Macros detract from the fun of an MMO especially the PvP parts of it because it removes player skill from the equation.

[_compton_]

Morning,

 

I've played a few MMOs, not hardcore by any stretch but in my time I've had the chance to try a few macros out and several mods as well.

 

If I had the choice macro support would never enter the game. It automates the game too much. Try using your manual dexterity to hit keys. Pay more active attention to situations and anticipate when you need to burst heal a player who is getting focus fired.

 

Macros detract from the fun of an MMO especially the PvP parts of it because it removes player skill from the equation.

 

In some cases, this is true. For some macros, this is equally true. However, if you had bothered to read the OP, these are not the macros I am advocating for.

 

Clarity is tough, apparently. I'll reiterate - Macros are not Mods/Addons, and not every macro is an automated IWIN cast-sequence button.

Edited December 28, 2011 by _compton_

[dexterryu]

I personally find myself playing better without Mods\macros. In WoW, sometimes I'd rely on them too heavily (specifically with focus CC macros)

 

Really the only issue I have as a PVP healer is that the interface makes it very difficult to see what debuffs are what.

[bobaTBS]

Read the OP, please. I think you've made a rather glaring oversight. Also, if I system can be improved... Why wouldn't you? You didn't address my statement that manually clicking between targets does not raise the skill cap from a tactical standpoint... MMO combat is inherently more tactical than most, because you aren't required to aim your abilities... Are you going to continue to reiterate and rehash all these arguments that have already been addressed, or do you have anything new to add?

 

Yes I missed that quote. Still it doesn't mean macros that you are asking for will be available, might just be simple things. That is not an improved system, it is a system that removes a mechanic from the game and makes it even more simplified than it already is. About clicking, what is there to adress? Do you want me to go in another direction saying something in the lines of "if we get macros which make the game easier why don't we just get AI bots to play the game for us"? Are you going to keep repeating yourself even though it has been already argued that macros you are proposing are taking away complexity from the game?

Edited April 10, 2012 by Sireene
use of retarded - due to age of post, no action

[Celebrus]

Immediately upon logging into the game initially during early access, I set my keybinds, and then typed "/m" into the chatbox, intending to get a feel for macro function within the game. I was surprised, as were many of my friends, guild mates and others that I've spoken to, when nothing was forthcoming.

 

 

Welcome to what everyone that wasn't under a rock for the last year knew.

 

I'm fairly certain this has been well known, widely talked about, and mostly supported that macros would not be in at launch, for months now.

[_compton_]

I personally find myself playing better without Mods\macros. In WoW, sometimes I'd rely on them too heavily (specifically with focus CC macros)

 

Really the only issue I have as a PVP healer is that the interface makes it very difficult to see what debuffs are what.

 

I'm unsure how going from supported functionality to no functionality could improve play, but I guess if using them had a negative impact that's plausible, though I'm unsure how that would work.

 

As a PvP healer, can you not say that Mouseover support would drastically improve your ability to heal a large group effectively?

 

@Boba

 

Yeah, it has been argued. Not effectively, though, and I'm only restating things because people are posting without actually reading the material (yourself included). The extent of your arguments has been - macros = crutch = decreased complexity, a simplistic and one-sided perspective that I've addressed in depth - again, multiple times.

 

@ previous poster - for someone who did not follow the game exhaustively pre-launch and was referred to it by a friend, yes, it was a shock.

Edited December 28, 2011 by _compton_

[Celebrus]

I'm unsure how going from supported functionality to no functionality could improve play, but I guess if using them had a negative impact that's plausible, though I'm unsure how that would work.

 

As a PvP healer, can you not say that Mouseover support would drastically improve your ability to heal a large group effectively?

 

Drastically improve? Or make mind-numbingly boring and easy? Take your pick, it's always going to be seen differently.

[_compton_]

Drastically improve? Or make mind-numbingly boring and easy? Take your pick, it's always going to be seen differently.

 

Exactly, it's all subjective. What is not subjective is the enhanced performance, which is generally the primary concern in a competitive setting.

 

@Boba

You're flailing bro. Your last statement verged on incoherency.

Edited December 28, 2011 by _compton_

[MemphisIX]

I started doing PvP on my character only recently and yes, lack of macros is clearly hurting here.

For instance, I want to combine several non-GCD into a single button so that I can cast (playing a Shadow) Resilience and Force Cloak at the same time, but the functionality isn't available.

Macros, from this perspective, make for a more varied gameplay experience since I can combine existing buffs to create different versions of them, for different situations. I don't see the problem with that.

 

Also, the macros that allow me to change the cast bar upon holding shift, ctrl, or whatever button tickles my fancy seems soarely missing. What I'm left with is a clogged UI where I have to display 3 additional cast bars just to be able to keybind multiple abilities (a must in PvP, where there's a situation for every single skill you have, the mark of a good player is to know when to use them). This makes the problem of a not-so-good default UI even worse, since players ARE NOT given the tools to modify it, or make it more efficient in any conceivable way.

 

The OP mentioned focus, at this point, where PvP seems all about WZs, I don't see the desperate need for this functionality, but I wouldn't stand in the way of a player needing it, having a clear use for it, and finding that it's both lacking, and hurting their experience.

 

Also, and on a final note, I'd like to take the opportunity to once again voice my support for ADDONS. Keeping track of my procs in the default UI, in the heat of a PvP match is just, what's the word I'm looking for... Irritating (want of a better term). It's these tiny little icons, they are displayed there along with another 15 buffs and a few debuffs, it's like looking for a needle in a haystack, and many times I just miss it altogether.

This is just not the way I want to play PvP, I don't want the mere fact of knowing if I procced Particle Acceleration to be a challenge in an of itself. I already have a challenge which is to stay on top of my target while avoiding other attackers PLUS trying to lock down a healer. And on top of that I can't see if I procced my abilities? This delays my cast by maybe 5 seconds, but anybody familiar with PvP will now that's often the difference between life and death in a match.

[riedeas]

I'm not asking for any kind of automation, no. If such a system exists within the game and functions in a highly similar or identical fashion to a focus macro in WoW (if you have any experience with that game) I did not find it after a rather exhaustive search of the options/interface menu. If anyone needs clarification on how focus frames/focus macros function, I'd be more than happy to explain.

 

@Boba

Having to manually continuously switch back and forth between two targets that you'd like to be able to engage effectively is an artificial increase in skill cap, yes, and it detracts from the overall flow and speed of the combat. There's nothing tactical about it, it is simply a clunky, awkward and outdated method. As I stated earlier, I could make an argument similar to the one you are using against macros against the use of keybinds - forcing players to click all of their abilities would be another way to artificially increase the skill cap - that does not make it any less clunky, awkward or un-necessary.

 

 

I'm not asking for any kind of automation, no. If such a system exists within the game and functions in a highly similar or identical fashion to a focus macro in WoW (if you have any experience with that game) I did not find it after a rather exhaustive search of the options/interface menu.

 

Yes i'm highly experianced with WoW, not so much with cataclysm though. Got rank 12.99% in Vanilla as a warrior and have always been near Gladiator with stupid setups in arena(playing with a irl friend refusing to play anything else than warrior/ele shaman and me as priest/warrior) and got gladiator in s4.

 

But you gotta agree it would be better to make the ui and controls smoother rather than adding macro support, especially for competitive play?

 

The only thing you are lacking with current keybind function over macros is a macro that can set macro on a target and then use some ability on that target, in 1 button. Else the focus target modifier should be enough. Should actully require less buttons unless the macros have some IF modifier, like if you have focus target=use ability him, if no focus=use ability on target.

 

 

again: Macro=lazy mode fix for devs to fix core problems with UI/animations

[_compton_]

I started doing PvP on my character only recently and yes, lack of macros is clearly hurting here.

For instance, I want to combine several non-GCD into a single button so that I can cast (playing a Shadow) Resilience and Force Cloak at the same time, but the functionality isn't available.

Macros, from this perspective, make for a more varied gameplay experience since I can combine existing buffs to create different versions of them, for different situations. I don't see the problem with that.

 

Also, the macros that allow me to change the cast bar upon holding shift, ctrl, or whatever button tickles my fancy seems soarely missing. What I'm left with is a clogged UI where I have to display 3 additional cast bars just to be able to keybind multiple abilities (a must in PvP, where there's a situation for every single skill you have, the mark of a good player is to know when to use them). This makes the problem of a not-so-good default UI even worse, since players ARE NOT given the tools to modify it, or make it more efficient in any conceivable way.

 

The OP mentioned focus, at this point, where PvP seems all about WZs, I don't see the desperate need for this functionality, but I wouldn't stand in the way of a player needing it, having a clear use for it, and finding that it's both lacking, and hurting their experience.

 

Also, and on a final note, I'd like to take the opportunity to once again voice my support for ADDONS. Keeping track of my procs in the default UI, in the heat of a PvP match is just, what's the word I'm looking for... Irritating (want of a better term). It's these tiny little icons, they are displayed there along with another 15 buffs and a few debuffs, it's like looking for a needle in a haystack, and many times I just miss it altogether.

This is just not the way I want to play PvP, I don't want the mere fact of knowing if I procced Particle Acceleration to be a challenge in an of itself. I already have a challenge which is to stay on top of my target while avoiding other attackers PLUS trying to lock down a healer. And on top of that I can't see if I procced my abilities? This delays my cast by maybe 5 seconds, but anybody familiar with PvP will now that's often the difference between life and death in a match.

 

Mem - use of focus and focus macros is more prevalent in arenas, certainly, but it is certainly a more efficient method in a BG/WZ setting as well.

 

@Rie - Yes, that would be a fine compromise. If they added mouseover support and enhanced focus macro support as individual components of the UI, I would be fine for that. I am not advocating for elaborate castsequence macros or any of that automated stuff.

Edited December 28, 2011 by _compton_

[MemphisIX]

Drastically improve? Or make mind-numbingly boring and easy? Take your pick, it's always going to be seen differently.

 

Yeah, it doesn't make it "mind numbingly boring and easy", it makes it faster and that's it.

[bobaTBS]

@Boba

 

Yeah, it has been argued. Not effectively, though, and I'm only restating things because people are posting without actually reading the material (yourself included). The extent of your arguments has been - macros = crutch = decreased complexity, a simplistic and one-sided perspective that I've addressed in depth - again, multiple times.

 

My argument is that it simplifies the game, which it does. Your argument was "it adds depth to the game" with an attached "targeting is artificial raising of skill cap" when you got in over your head.

[Goonso]

Da derp derp derpie herp herp? Herpie derpie berpie!

 

You want macros for 5 or 6 abilities? I think you don't know how to play. You were comfortable with WoW and smashing buttons but when you get into a new game you still want the feeling of the old game. No. Either adapt to the new style or macro off.

 

But yes, don't consider someones opinion going against what you believe to be trolling. This isn't WoW forums. Either you adapt or just stop playing, "Compton".

[MemphisIX]

Mem - use of focus and focus macros is more prevalent in arenas, certainly, but it is certainly a more efficient method in a BG/WZ setting as well.

 

@Rie - Yes, that would be a fine compromise. If they added mouseover support and enhanced focus macro support as individual components of the UI, I would be fine for that. I am not advocating for elaborate castsequence macros or any of that automated stuff.

 

Yes, I used focus macros all the time in arenas, I was simply stating that my own personal experience as a melee damage dealer, I'm not finding the absence of focus hindering in any way. But I can see it being vital for a healer, say in Huttball, and that's just off the top of my head.

Edited December 28, 2011 by MemphisIX