TUXs Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 You keep talking about keeping things in perspective, and I completely agree that it's relevant in terms of the severity of the response - it's a video game, no one should be sued or jailed or fined or suffer any real-world consequences over it. But the question of culpability/responsibility is still there, regardless. If you catch someone cheating at a game of Monopoly you don't arrest them, but you probably do throw them out of the game, or if you're going to allow them to keep playing you at least take away whatever they gained by cheating. "You exploited a video game" is absolutely not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but by the same token "You aren't allowed to play a certain video game anymore" is also not a big deal; and even that is at the most extreme end of the spectrum for a response we're going to see out of this - taking away a few items or a temporary ban is way, way more likely in most cases. I see the Ultimate tokens from 55 content as just as big of an issue as the "exploit" was. In fact, I would argue that you could gain MORE from the 55 Ops than the exploit. If Bioware is willing to ban customers over this 2-3 week boost to gear grinding, they should have had the professionalism to patch the damn thing. Pull the servers down, remove loot, tell players to contact CS...that could have been done 4 weeks ago in a matter of hours tops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlasherX Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) I personally did not participate, but just on a show of what I had scanned last week on Shadowlands, I would venture a guess at several hundred characters who did. There are sooooooo many people with Revanite chests running around right now it is scary. Nearly 85% of folks on fleet last night easily. Should be interesting to see what actually transpires. Doubt it will actually matter. Edited January 13, 2015 by SlasherX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojomagro Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) why can't we all just be friends :,( Edited January 13, 2015 by Jojomagro wording Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GadgetDon Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 If you catch someone cheating at a game of Monopoly you don't arrest them, but you probably do throw them out of the game, or if you're going to allow them to keep playing you at least take away whatever they gained by cheating. Monopoly is a competitive game. If they win, you lose. So of course their cheating affects you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildstarsrea Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 People can try to deflect blame all they want, but the truth is very, very simple: Taking advantage of an unintended issue or bug is an exploit and is subject to action. Nothing else matters. The ToS lays it out and if you violate it you pay the price. This wasn't something that players could accidentally do through the course of normal game play. Using this exploit took foreknowledge and active participation. Ops bosses are intended to be defeated once per week per the lockout timer anyone who does Ops knows very well. Ops bosses are only meant to give a player loot once per defeat, once per week...this is how the system has been for a while. If you did anything to get around the defeat/lockout system, you didn't do it accidentally. Again, it doesn't matter how long it existed before it was fixed. The rules don't say "you can take advantage of an exploit if it has been around for a long time or it makes it from the PTS to live". They say that taking advantage of an exploit is subject to action. You can try to rationalize taking advantage of an exploit all you want, it won't change the fact that you broke the rules. Again, put the blame where it really lies. As my tag line, "An eye for an eye would leave the whole world blind" Famous quote from Ghandi. Fix the problem and forget about it as vengence serves nothing but sowing further hate and discontent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 /popcorn Please to pass the bucket.. me need some too. Hilarious watching the editorials spawn on both extremes... AGAIN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 There are sooooooo many people with Revanite chests running around right now it is scary. Nearly 85% of folks on fleet last night easily. The funny thing is, that was my 1st piece of "loot" from the Ops. Our RAID leader was with me back in the early days of EV, trying to get the chest piece from Soa...it wasn't until Lost Island came out that I actually got the rakata chest...so because of this, he kindly assigned it as my 1st piece of loot. Moral is...do not assume anything just because of the chest piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Again, put the blame where it really lies. As my tag line, "An eye for an eye would leave the whole world blind" Famous quote from Ghandi. Fix the problem and forget about it as vengence serves nothing but sowing further hate and discontent It isn't vengeance to punish people for breaking the rules. Without consequences for actions against the rules, you simply encourage people to continue to break the rules. The blame is squarely on those people who broke the rules. There is no gray area, there are no justifications that will change that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 It is interesting to see all the excuses for doing the exploit. Yes bioware is partly at fault for releasing the expansion with the possible bug that caused the exploit but the ones that did it knew exactly what they were doing was wrong. You can blame bioware all you want but they did not force you to do something that you knew was against their TOS. Excuses like no access to guild operation raiding parties, etc are excuses. A lot of people don't have access to this and yet they didn't do it. What bioware did or ddin't do in the past is exactly that the past. This is a new year and as such should be taken as such. They can change how they handle the exploits whether or not everyone likes it or not. What they do or don't do is actually private information and as such a lot of that will not become public knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkpagandeath Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 People do know in other mmo's guilds have had their world firsts taken off them for exploiting, Players banded permanently for repeated abuse of an exploit. That's what should happen here. Exploits are sometimes hard to fix in a live Mmo. You would swear this community is entirely comprised of software developers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) People can try to deflect blame all they want, but the truth is very, very simple: Taking advantage of an unintended issue or bug is an exploit and is subject to action. Nothing else matters. The ToS lays it out and if you violate it you pay the price. ^^ Right here. Specific actions will of course not be disclosed by Bioware, but I am sure there will be plenty of reddit activity once the actions begin. Tin foil hat wearers, and cynics will of course complain no matter what is done or not done in the way of actions. I look at the bright side... we are only one bug away from a new forum chew toy. Edited January 13, 2015 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 It isn't vengeance to punish people for breaking the rules. Without consequences for actions against the rules, you simply encourage people to continue to break the rules. The blame is squarely on those people who broke the rules. There is no gray area, there are no justifications that will change that fact. ^^ Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onurduman Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Bioware let this exploit sit unchecked from the 3.0 PTS. It was reported as a bug by players on the PTS. It is your own fault for launching a glitched and bugged expansion that you rushed out of the door before your company left for christmas vacation. Dont ban people for using something that you knew about for well over a month and did nothing about. 3.0 screwed up the bolster system again, bugged the final revan fight and had a few other things wrong with it. You need to look at your employees and management before even thinking about starting to ban player that make up the subsciber base that you need to even keep your team employed. I'm sorry, but this is absolutely true. This exploit was in PTS and reported by tons of players, it was your companies idea to simply "ignore" them and rush out the expansion out of the door with an extreme amount of glitches and bugs such as the broken PVP bolster, Raven fight being broken (which is the main story line of 3.0) and Ravagers. I find it absolutely ridiculous and saddening that ALL of this somehow managed to get through the PTS for THREE months. Are we forgetting how SM/HM DF DP wasn't suppose to give ultimate commendations but pretty much every single player in this game has run them to get some of those 198 vendor gear? We demand action against people who used this exploit also (which is pretty much the entire player base). We all can guess this is why Bioware decided to release the expansion with the bugs and glitches that they knew existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Monopoly is a competitive game. If they win, you lose. So of course their cheating affects you. Fine: "If you catch someone cheating at Forbidden Island (a cooperative board-game with no adversarial players) you don't arrest them, but you probably do throw them out of the game, or if you're going to allow them to keep playing you at least take away whatever they gained by cheating." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unevenmojo Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) #exploitgate Edited January 13, 2015 by Unevenmojo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 If someone is getting gear without doing anything but showing up, then they knew it was a exploit. LOL. This remark reminds me of a player I used to know who obtained full 180 gearing (back in the day) by being carried through 16m SM ops. We had him join a raid parse once and his DPS toon was averaging 570 DPS in 180 gear. Sort of an exploit (of the other players, not the game) don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GadgetDon Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Fine: "If you catch someone cheating at Forbidden Island (a cooperative board-game with no adversarial players) you don't arrest them, but you probably do throw them out of the game, or if you're going to allow them to keep playing you at least take away whatever they gained by cheating." If you've watched them cheat for months in your weekly game and suddenly ban them from your house forever - they will probably reasonably have a "***" reaction. Particularly if it's something that was legal in the game as it was presented, nothing in the written rules or game mechanics keeping them from doing it, but you later found a FAQ that said it's wrong and you "punish" him for his months of using that game mechanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmphysvenaCorp Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Good. now take actions against PVP exploiters. They are far worse than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Please to pass the bucket.. me need some too. Hilarious watching the editorials spawn on both extremes... AGAIN. Passions run high in the land of hyperbole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GadgetDon Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 #exploitgate It's Ethics in Player Mechanics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Good. now take actions against PVP exploiters. They are far worse than this. NO! Only THIS exploit is bad. All others are fine....or "bugs"...this one though....oh boy!!!! Don't you even think of getting gear a week or 2 early.! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnAskham Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) People do know in other mmo's guilds have had their world firsts taken off them for exploiting, Players banded permanently for repeated abuse of an exploit. That's what should happen here. Exploits are sometimes hard to fix in a live Mmo. You would swear this community is entirely comprised of software developers. My point of reference is mostly WoW, though I've played smaller MMOs as well. In that game, yes world firsts have been removed, players suspended, rolled back, and even banned for egregious exploiting. But the difference to me is that when an exploits such as the one here are found in WoW, they are hotfixed in hours or at most days, and anyone who participated in it is dealt with at that time. Heck, they even actively watch the world first attempts on a lot of content to both catch and correct any major bugs as well as identify any potential exploits. The first guild to do LK glitched part of the encounter which removed a mechanic, which was identified and fixed in a matter of days, and the guild memebers who participated were given a three day suspension. And to my knowledge, Blizzard has never allowed this level of exploit into WoW, and even ones not as severe have never been left to fester for weeks on end. As I've said before, they can do whatever they like with people who took advantage of this bug, but any repercussions for the game and for EA for action OR inaction rest solely with the management of SWTOR. And going forward, the lessons learned need to be more for those running this game than playing this game, and that is to plug these types of things long before they spread and grow like a cancer throughout the game. Edited January 13, 2015 by DawnAskham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFBHitmarkers Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 NO! Only THIS exploit is bad. All others are fine....or "bugs"...this one though....oh boy!!!! Don't you even think of getting gear a week or 2 early.! sarcasm, I hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) I see the Ultimate tokens from 55 content as just as big of an issue as the "exploit" was. In fact, I would argue that you could gain MORE from the 55 Ops than the exploit. If you made that argument, I would laugh in your face. First off, doing 55 Ops is still playing the game. The rewards were out of touch with the time and effort required, but you were still playing the game within the rules of the game. This exploit involved taking a completed lockout and abusing it to zone back into the instance and repeatedly loot the boss over and over, and then selling the ability to do so to someone else. Second, we are talking about optimized 198 tier gear with set bonuses versus vendor garbage that in most cases is worse than 186 raid gear. Third, Ultimate comms has a weekly cap, there is only so much gain you can get per week by running old content. The exploit allowed people an endless supply of loot drops. They could reset and do it over and over as many times as they wanted. Fourth, it enabled players to get gear beyond their skill level, which pretty much defeats the whole purpose of the game. Within the confines of the game mechanics, any player can eventually get 198 vendor gear if they put in the effort. Yes, doing 55 Ops helped speed up this process, but they could still get it eventually. This is not the case with 198 tier gear. Edited January 13, 2015 by Icebergy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anuduin Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 With all due respect Bioware, if someone need to get punished for this exploit is your team who lauched a broken expansion and went out on vacation. This x 9000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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