Training Costs are a Thing of the Past

[Ecaj]

Love this (wish more MMOs got it) but bit upset that I just spent over 700k the last few days training (and still have skills to learn but out of creds again) and filed a ticket requesting those back, it's not right to penalize your subscribers who pre-ordered the expansion like this.

[RowanThursday]

Well, thank you Bioware for picking up on the public mood on this. Very nice to know the credits I'd rather spend on the GTN, or on actually getting crafting worked out for once, won't get leeched off into skill training any more.

 

I honestly don't get the "I want a refund!" viewpoint. It wasn't a bug that cost people money, or a fault in the game, or even something *wrong* as such- it was just something that for various reasons became deeply unpopular, and led to a changed policy.

 

Generally speaking, making policy changes retroactive like that is a bad idea, because where would you draw the line? Anyone who spent credits and/or subscription time grinding a purple crystal back when they were very rare Imperial-only crafting recipes demanding a refund since they started to pop up ten-a-penny in the cartel market?

Worse, subscribers trying to argue that they should be refunded because they subscribed on the basis of the game *not* having a Free to Play option, before it acquired one?

 

Obviously, there can be exceptions where a policy is changed because it's massively unfair- but I don't really think this fits that. Charging that much for skills was ill-judged, certainly, and a bit out of touch, but not actually morally wrong, just something they changed their minds on.

[Beranzen]

only out about 500-750k if that total across all of my people. Big hit to the funding of leveling alts, but i can handle it.

Just have to wear more greens.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Beranzen

[chickdrummer]

I'm at the point of not touching this game until these game damaging bugs are fixed. Goodbye, SWTOR, it's been fun.

[Kadin]

I'm tired of having a negative attitude towards this change with regards to the refunds (or lack thereof I mean). All I've done today is spew out a bunch of negativity as I'm not exactly thrilled to have wasted a ton of credits.

 

So in trying to change my perspective, I'm going to simply tell myself that if we didn't have early access, and all of us started at the same time, I still would have spent these credits before they made the change. Sure that might be wishful thinking in an alternate universe but it's what I'm going to do to convince myself that what's done is done.

 

I have to either do this and move on, or continue stewing about it. I refuse to do the latter any longer. Fight the fight guys, I've hit my limit.

[cynicalConquesta]

Perfectly fair IMHO. Freeloaders get enough as it is.

 

 

Woahwoahwoah. Now listen, I get that you've probably never had to actually play as a F2P, but I have, and most of my friends IRL who play still are. Playing f2p is not ANYTHING like playing subbed, or even preferred. It's playing a game where every odd that you can think or barring dealing less damage and taking more is set against you. Everything costs 25% more, you only gain 50% exp after level 20, you don't get speeder piloting until halfway through Tatooine, you only get to loot 3 flashpoint end bosses a week, you only get 5 warzones, you only get 1 crew skill, you can't use artifact gear, you can only have 250000 credits at a time, should you actually get to 50 you still can't access section X, you don't get to hide your head slot, you don't get to use unify colours, you don't get titles, you don't get legacy names or titles, the list still goes on. I get that they don't pay to play the game, but stop throwing F2Ps, and preferred for that matter (most of whom are former subs who can't afford to subscribe every month) under the buss every chance you get.

[ArthasDaracon]

Anyone who actually expected them to provide refunds is naive, they didn't provide refunds for all the people who trained skills at launch before they lowered costs, they didn't provide refunds for all the people who trained speeder skills when it was 400k or 250k when Free to play hit. If they didn't refund when money was actually somewhat rare and hard to come by they sure as hell aren't going to do it now.

[Hiragawa]

Hello all, recurring poster from that linked thread here...

 

Let me start of by saying Thank You to Eric and the Dev's for realizing that SOMETHING was wrong here and doing something about it. I had personally sought a temporary zero cost training from 1-55 to help ease current players into the skill revamp, but this is certainly better from a long shot.

 

Secondly, the amount of people complaining about being shafted on the costs from 56-60... I really am sorry. I won't try and spout how easy it is to make credits like many did towards the posters in the original thread about the retraining issue. I will however say, that I don't think Bioware did this intentionally. The (currently) 40 page thread that many of us railed against the retraining costs (And training costs in general) was probably the proverbial straw so to speak, and they more than likely made the choice to do away with training costs today alone. Thankfully they announced it so we can hold off on training skills until Tuesday if the cost bothers us.

 

Now, that being said: I DO think that anyone with early access should get some sort of compensation if the 56-60 training costs aren't going to be refunded somehow, perhaps one of the following.

 

Drop 1 million credits into their mailbox for each character over 56.

Drop 500-1000 Cartel Coins into their accounts.

Have the designers create a unique mount/armour set/item/something that will only ever go out to the early access people.

Just do something for them.

 

They put up with bug after bug after bug during this early access (Which to be fair, could probably have been expected since early access is pretty much just paid Beta anymore >.>) and then to find out that they very well may have dropped a few million credits on training costs that no one outside of Early Access could have possibly accessed the 56-60 skills to do the same on...

 

I mean, I'm out 500k simply because I zipped through my Commando and a few others before noticing something was wrong with the retraining of skills, but I'm nowhere near what those that played past 55 are at. I think doing away with training costs is a fantastic solution to the problem that arose from 3.0 and skills. I'm satisfied that Bioware listened and finally reacted after enough prodding. But even as someone that did not pre-order (I'm a Founder that remembers Launch, I hold off on expansions these days ) , even I can see that SOMETHING should be given to your loyal customers that ordered early enough for Early Access and have been basically beta testing the expansion while submitting bug reports and giving feedback on the forums.

 

Please Eric, Bioware, EA, Devs, Whomever. Offer them something.

[davidmoffitt]

Running some type of script to find all the credits that were spent across characters within a given week and sending that amount back via an in-game mail is really that hard to do? Yeah I guess actually it might be seeing as how other small issues seemed to take forever to get fixed. Good point.

 

As to it not being a lot of money, how did you come to this conclusion?

 

This, a thousand times.

[Beranzen]

Hello all, recurring poster from that linked thread here...

 

Let me start of by saying Thank You to Eric and the Dev's for realizing that SOMETHING was wrong here and doing something about it. I had personally sought a temporary zero cost training from 1-55 to help ease current players into the skill revamp, but this is certainly better from a long shot.

 

Secondly, the amount of people complaining about being shafted on the costs from 56-60... I really am sorry. I won't try and spout how easy it is to make credits like many did towards the posters in the original thread about the retraining issue. I will however say, that I don't think Bioware did this intentionally. The (currently) 40 page thread that many of us railed against the retraining costs (And training costs in general) was probably the proverbial straw so to speak, and they more than likely made the choice to do away with training costs today alone. Thankfully they announced it so we can hold off on training skills until Tuesday if the cost bothers us.

 

Now, that being said: I DO think that anyone with early access should get some sort of compensation if the 56-60 training costs aren't going to be refunded somehow, perhaps one of the following.

 

Drop 1 million credits into their mailbox for each character over 56.

Drop 500-1000 Cartel Coins into their accounts.

Have the designers create a unique mount/armour set/item/something that will only ever go out to the early access people.

Just do something for them.

 

They put up with bug after bug after bug during this early access (Which to be fair, could probably have been expected since early access is pretty much just paid Beta anymore >.>) and then to find out that they very well may have dropped a few million credits on training costs that no one outside of Early Access could have possibly accessed the 56-60 skills to do the same on...

 

I mean, I'm out 500k simply because I zipped through my Commando and a few others before noticing something was wrong with the retraining of skills, but I'm nowhere near what those that played past 55 are at. I think doing away with training costs is a fantastic solution to the problem that arose from 3.0 and skills. I'm satisfied that Bioware listened and finally reacted after enough prodding. But even as someone that did not pre-order (I'm a Founder that remembers Launch, I hold off on expansions these days ) , even I can see that SOMETHING should be given to your loyal customers that ordered early enough for Early Access and have been basically beta testing the expansion while submitting bug reports and giving feedback on the forums.

 

Please Eric, Bioware, EA, Devs, Whomever. Offer them something.

 

Reasonable. I do think 1 million is to much for the creds especially for every character above 56. 250k-500k max. It's not a full refund but it shows they offered something back. Cartel coins might be an easier option.

 

Downside is the ones that do not get any cartel coins or creds will be on here saying it isnt fait they didnt get it regardless of level.

[LordArtemis]

Well, looks like we have a WIDE spectrum of viewpoints here. A few viewpoints on the fringe seem to have lost control of their fingers....

 

If you wish for this to change, there is likely three things that need to be done for it to have a chance....

 

1) Tone down the rhetoric.

2) Explain how you feel, but refrain from being petty in your speech.

3) Ignore those that bait you, or at least temper your responses.

 

This change came about, in part, based on the discussion we had in this very forum over the past few days, plenty of angry folks there, but generally speaking the trollish behavior was minimal. We accomplished something...a good discussion that contributed in some small part to positive change.

 

Pooping in your hand and throwing it at your computer screen is not likely to get you what you seek.

 

Your criticism can be biting, even harsh, but you should remember to TRY to stay within the forum rules and try to refrain from personal attacks.

 

If this change proved anything, it is that anything is possible...even a "no" can become a yes if they feel it is warranted.

 

Oh, and please respect those folks that are ok with the spent coins....there is no reason to rage against them, unless of course they are trying to tell you you should feel the same way.

 

You go ahead and feel any way you like...but if you want success, try measuring your speech a bit. It can only help.

Edited December 6, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Sarfux]

Wow! This is GREAT news! I love this decision! More time to have fun and not have to worry what skills to spend what on. I really like this decision. Thank you so much!

[Vhaegrant]

Well, thank you Bioware for picking up on the public mood on this. Very nice to know the credits I'd rather spend on the GTN, or on actually getting crafting worked out for once, won't get leeched off into skill training any more.

I hope that works out for you okay and the additional inflow of credits doesn't inflate the GTN or make BW consider introducing other credit sinks that affect you at all times rather than just when you level.

 

I honestly don't get the "I want a refund!" viewpoint. It wasn't a bug that cost people money, or a fault in the game, or even something *wrong* as such- it was just something that for various reasons became deeply unpopular, and led to a changed policy.

How about it cost me time. Time to go and run dailies so that I could pay the training costs (both of the abilities that were removed and had to be retrained because of the switch to 3.0 but mostly the 59>60 transition).

Given that it is easy to work out how much you are giving the players from quests (the Rishi quests are some of the lowest paying about 5-6k) it was an obvious design choice.

 

Generally speaking, making policy changes retroactive like that is a bad idea, because where would you draw the line? Anyone who spent credits and/or subscription time grinding a purple crystal back when they were very rare Imperial-only crafting recipes demanding a refund since they started to pop up ten-a-penny in the cartel market?

Worse, subscribers trying to argue that they should be refunded because they subscribed on the basis of the game *not* having a Free to Play option, before it acquired one?

Wrong. Refunds are time sensitive. There is no clearer point of demarcation that those players that pre-ordered in time for early access and then levelled across the 59>60 threshold have a clear case to ask for a refund.

The irony of this situation is if they had made this decision a year down the road after I had levelled and paid for all of my alts (16 characters in total) I would have shrugged and thought nothing more of it. But this is less than a week.

 

Obviously, there can be exceptions where a policy is changed because it's massively unfair- but I don't really think this fits that. Charging that much for skills was ill-judged, certainly, and a bit out of touch, but not actually morally wrong, just something they changed their minds on.

'Ill judged' and 'Out of touch' are two terms that I would use to justify asking for a refund not refute it

[Hiragawa]

Reasonable. I do think 1 million is to much for the creds especially for every character above 56. 250k-500k max. It's not a full refund but it shows they offered something back. Cartel coins might be an easier option.

 

Downside is the ones that do not get any cartel coins or creds will be on here saying it isnt fait they didnt get it regardless of level.

 

Yeah, I just tossed 1mil down there as an arbitrary number, but you understand my point. And as to the people who don't get the coins/creds etc (Such as myself), I agree that whining will probably happen. But frankly, so long as it is JUST sent to those that obtained early access, it'll hold up a fairly solid wall that no one can really talk their way past.

 

I just think that something should be offered to the early access players. Outside of them going through the data for this week and giving an exact refund to players based on the 56+ skills they trained on every character, someone would get more of a refund, and someone would get less (comparable pending on reward given of course). But so long as Bioware at least tries, that would hopefully help ease some of the anger felt by early access folks that are out a lump sum.

[Vagren]

Making it free to train abilities - GREAT... long time coming.

 

Not giving refunds to those who have already paid - I understand the reasoning, but please see it from the viewpoint of those who did pay. The ones who are getting the shaft are the ones who pre-ordered. The ones who have early access. Aren't those the people who were supposed to be rewarded for pre-purchasing the game? Well, they are now the only ones who are out a ton of credits for utilizing their pre-order "reward".

 

I don't have a ton of time to play so I haven't leveled far and only lost about 200-300K but I know others who have lost millions.

[Oyranos]

yes its about 2-3 millions per char 55-60

 

its about 100.000-200.000 per lvl and the last lvl for my OP was 700.000 maybe more... I was 280.000 I went up 1.080.000 and now I am 240.000. Depends the character, some classes pay more.

 

ps: I believe they deserve to be punished, not to sub after my sub expires, for a few months. Try something else in the proccess.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Oyranos

[MaximusRex]

Fair question azudelphi! Since the change we are making is a global one, affecting all players and skills, we felt this was a better approach to the overall cost to players. As a result, we will not be providing refunds for the cost of training.

 

Hope that clarifies our thoughts on the situation.

 

-eric

 

While I appreciate the change, and the difficulties of giving exact refunds, in a way you are telling players who opted to pre-purchase SOR early and got Early Access tough luck on tossing out hundreds of thousands of credits that our less loyal customers won't have to spend now. You guys could have at least given us something to help compensate, even if not perfect.

[Heal-To-Full]

Well, they are now the only ones who are out a ton of credits for utilizing their pre-order "reward".

Everyone with the Xpac got it through preorder. Probably 90% or so. I literally don't see anyone who is a sub and hasn't preordered, except rarely by mistake.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Heal-To-Full

[ron_harmeling]

I honestly don't get the "I want a refund!" viewpoint. It wasn't a bug that cost people money, or a fault in the game, or even something *wrong* as such- it was just something that for various reasons became deeply unpopular, and led to a changed policy.

 

I do not agree with this. Sorry, we're not beta-testing but having an early access, which means the game should be as it is when it goes live (with less bugs).

 

And skill training IS a bug on certain ACs, I got bummed out at lvl 55 on my commando, which cost me 700K straight without even playing a singe minute, making commandos have a HIGHER cost for levelling then any other class. It's 2.1-2.2 million for commandos, and I see a lot of 700K mentioned here.

 

If it is that steep, write a script that detects what each toon trained, add up all the costs and send it by mail.

Any decent programmer can script that in a day (and I am being gentle).

 

Hence, the lazy and easy solution, as usual.

[LordArtemis]

Ok, I have seen some suggestions on what Bioware could offer players that have spent credits on skills prior to the removal of cost.

 

I thought I would be helpful and gather them in a list in this thread. This is what I have seen so far.

 

1) Full refund of all ability training that has been purchased since the start of Early Access (Dec 2nd)

2) 5 days of subscription time

3) 7 days of subscription time

4) One time stipend of 200CC

5) One time stipend of 500CC

6) A special mount or weapon

7) Return of 12XP

8) Free legacy unlocks for a short period

9) Free legacy unlock for Field Respecialization

 

If I have missed any, or need to add any new suggestions let me know. I will expand the list and repost it when needed.

Edited December 6, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Hiragawa]

Ok, I have seen some suggestions on what Bioware could offer players that have spent credits on skills prior to the removal of cost.

 

I thought I would be helpful and gather them in a list in this thread. This is what I have seen so far.

 

1) Full refund of all ability training that has been purchased since the start of Early Access (Dec 2nd)

2) 5 days of subscription time

3) 7 days of subscription time

4) One time stipend of 200CC

5) One time stipend of 500CC

6) A special mount or weapon

7) Return of 12XP

8) Free legacy unlocks for a short period

9) Free legacy unlock for Field Respecialization

 

If I have missed any, or need to add any new suggestions let me know. I will expand the list and repost it when needed.

 

Thank you LordArtemis, helpful as always. My only worry with 7-9 is that many players, especially those more likely to pre-order for early access, may not actually get use out of them since they may have the unlocks with a list full of 55+ characters.

[jediknightcub]

Thank you for the rather quick response to this issue. Zeroing out training costs for a month was my proposed solution to this issue. This is even better!

 

R.I.P. Training Costs

"You will not be missed..."

[dcaleb]

I am very happy to hear this, I hated this feature and was glad when the X12 experience event let me level my abilities for free.

[Heezdedjim]

Let’s talk a bit about training costs for your characters abilities. One thing has become clear from the player feedback in not only this thread, but since launch: players do not like training costs. It is a situation where every level you will see your hard earned credits go to a holographic Hutt doctor in order to make yourself a bit stronger. We have been talking about this topic internally for quite some time and when you add player feedback to the mix one thing becomes clear… We should make training costs a thing of the past.

 

Since launch, you have spent millions of credits training skills across your characters. As of our maintenance next week all ability training costs will be completely removed from the game, forever!

 

What does this mean for you? This means that starting next week, instead of spending your credits on training skills, you can now spend them on literally, anything else you want. Note that this only affects ability training, you will still need to spend credits to training schematics for Crew Skills, etc.

 

Thank you again for your feedback.

You guys are good at this. Not even kidding.

 

The expansion in itself was a fantastic job. But this is one of the better moves in response to a misfire with a change that I've seen any team make with any game in recent memory. It's been clear for a while, but even more so recently, that there is a real commitment with the team to making this a genuinely good game that people are happy to play.

 

Keep this up, and you all may wake up one day soon and find yourselves with a 2 to 3 million player game.

[RowanThursday]

All valid points. I'm not saying my analysis was actually *right*, just that I didn't entirely understand the other perspective. I suppose from my perpetually in-game penniless point of view- I usually just level alts rather than do dailies etc, and 1 million is about the most I've *ever* had at a time, the view looks slightly different- i.e. "Wow, one huge and horrible expense I was never going to be able to pay in future suddenly *gone*!" rather than "Tch, one irritating nuisance I just clambered over removed right *after* I've done it.