Rydarus' 4.0+ Vigilance/Vengeance Guide on Dulfy

[Torvai]

doing 6400 rn with mostly 216s still /shrug

:eek:

 

Alright, this means I have to parse a little. Just to get higher than you ONCE

[GrandLordMenace]

:eek:

 

Alright, this means I have to parse a little. Just to get higher than you ONCE

 

Focus on DoT uptime. It's the key to consistent parses. You'll get higher parses vig thrust spamming but also lower ones, and raid realistic rotations should emphasize DoTs more.

 

http://parsely.io/parser/view/82820/0

 

look at the next lowest parse' ability usage page, the mintime on all 3 dots is drastically different from the actual usage.

 

Then compare to mine http://parsely.io/parser/view/81100/10

 

Notice how I don't let any of my dots ever get past .2s away from it's natural mintime CD? That's the goal. I've never seen anyone get it 100% correct in 3.0 and 4.0, but I did see it in 2.0. RIP westfall 2012-2013.

 

As far as I'm concerned there's not a single player left in the game that runs Vengeance 100% perfectly anymore :\

 

My current gear is a mix of 220s and 216s, roughly half and half, with mostly 220 right side sans armorings and 216 left side, 220 MH.

Edited November 6, 2015 by GrandLordMenace

[xeqtoRDoom]

Lets be honest, dummy parsing means nothing in terms of numbers, it is only good for practicing your rotation. Highest parses will always be the one will the luckiest RNG and at this point the person with the best gear. What is important is to have a good average parse and to be consistent and to know when you messed up and could you done something differently to avoid it.

 

Rotation can and will change depending on the boss fights but if you have your priorities straight you will do really good on bosses and thats the only thing that matters. I've seen people do good numbers on dummy and they are beyond terrible on bosses. Makes me want to slap them silly

Edited November 6, 2015 by xeqtoRDoom

[GrandLordMenace]

Lets be honest, dummy parsing means nothing in terms of numbers, it is only good for practicing your rotation. Highest parses will always be the one will the luckiest RNG and at this point the person with the best gear. What is important is to have a good average parse and to be consistent and to know when you messed up and could you done something differently to avoid it.

 

Rotation can and will change depending on the boss fights but if you have your priorities straight you will do really good on bosses and thats the only thing that matters. I've seen people do good numbers on dummy and they are beyond terrible on bosses. Makes me want to slap them silly

 

Boss parsing only magnifies any issues you have in dummy parsing. As long as your rotation is raid practical (IE, your opener has a leap in it and isn't some janky stuff), you'll be fine as long as you have good uptime.

[Ookverbermin]

No offense intended to anyone, particularly not to Mr. Rydarus, but I was disappointed and frustrated with the "4.0" version of the guide...

Just seems like a lot of the info was not 4.0 oriented and with all the jargon it seemed geared towards people who are so familiar with the game and it's mechanics they would be less in need of a guide, as compared to those of us that don't spend a lot of our day-to-day time playing the game lingo.

Just some input from a perspective you may not have gotten, for whatever it's worth.

[GrandLordMenace]

No offense intended to anyone, particularly not to Mr. Rydarus, but I was disappointed and frustrated with the "4.0" version of the guide...

Just seems like a lot of the info was not 4.0 oriented and with all the jargon it seemed geared towards people who are so familiar with the game and it's mechanics they would be less in need of a guide, as compared to those of us that don't spend a lot of our day-to-day time playing the game lingo.

Just some input from a perspective you may not have gotten, for whatever it's worth.

 

That's because the spec barely changed in 4.0 to 3.0, like at all. Any changes I made were just adapting to what little change, changing the gearing method, and adding anything I learned late 3.0 while progressing on Revan.

[drummerinthesun]

Rydarus, I'm finally getting around to reading your 4.0 guide and I had some notes.

 

Any particular reason you chose to use the cooldown times affected by alacrity instead of describing them as GCDs? For examples, having BR and OS labeled as 6 GCDs rather than an 8.2 second cooldown?

 

In reference to gearing, why are you splitting alacrity and crit the way you've outlined? You mentioned you aren't following Goblin_Lackey's numbers but didn't put a reason why (other than mentioning accuracy). Just curious on that point.

 

I think your priority system would benefit from a graphic to show how the cooldowns interplay (similar to Oofalong's Annihilation guide). Reading "Also, every 32.616 seconds, Overhead Slash is used twice in one Plasma Brand, and the window after, Blade Storm is used twice in one window. This is the most resource intensive of the rotation, and where you ABSOLUTELY need extra resource in order to come out still rotationally sound." is going to confuse newer players, and could be shown much more simply with a graphic. In general, I really do think that a dummy parse is a set rotation, with the caveat of having main abilities and filler abilities. The main abilities being the 3 dots, and everything else labelled as filler. So you could break everything down into the cooldown interplay of the dot abilities (the set rotation), and the fillers broken down into a priority system.

 

I have an AoE rotation that shreds pretty much everything and is energy neutral:

Sunder>Plasma Brand>Vig Thrust>Cyclone Slash until Sunder comes off cooldown. There's no need to swap OS in there, in my opinion, especially since it's a weak dot. So you keep the Cyclone Slash debuff, your strongest dot going, and never need to worry about resources.

 

In general, I think the above poster has a valid point: you are writing the guide for people who are very familiar with the spec. Take a look at it with the perspective of someone who has never played before, and I think the guide would be improved for everyone (including the veterans). There really isn't anything cosmic about Vig/Vengeance, however simplicity would get your points across in a more solidified manner, in my opinion. Anyways, just my two cents. Thanks, as always, for taking the time to update the guide, post on these forums, and being a constant voice in support of this class/spec.

Edited November 6, 2015 by drummerinthesun

[Ookverbermin]

That's because the spec barely changed in 4.0 to 3.0, like at all. Any changes I made were just adapting to what little change, changing the gearing method, and adding anything I learned late 3.0 while progressing on Revan.

 

Fair enough, but you could have taken a bit of time to remove references that only apply to 3.0 and make sure you addressed everything new in 4.0 like the new utilities.

 

 

also when you wrote this;

Currently, unless you’re absolutely irrationally dedicated to this spec like I am, turn back and go Watchman.

I was a bit confused because watchman is a spec for sentinel, not guardian....

 

 

 

In general, I think the above poster has a valid point: you are writing the guide for people who are very familiar with the spec. Take a look at it with the perspective of someone who has never played before, and I think the guide would be improved for everyone (including the veterans). There really isn't anything cosmic about Vig/Vengeance, however simplicity would get your points across in a more solidified manner, in my opinion. Anyways, just my two cents. Thanks, as always, for taking the time to update the guide, post on these forums, and being a constant voice in support of this class/spec.

Thanks man, I'm glad someone else understands, I hope Ryd will too

Edited November 6, 2015 by Ookverbermin

[xeqtoRDoom]

Boss parsing only magnifies any issues you have in dummy parsing. As long as your rotation is raid practical (IE, your opener has a leap in it and isn't some janky stuff), you'll be fine as long as you have good uptime.

 

Actually on most bosses you don't have to leap to start the fight. You can stay around 12 m from the boss and you wont aggro it. You have plenty of time to do Saber Throw, walk in and use Sundering Strike, its better then using Saber Throw + Leap, thats probably the worst opener you can have. Both of the abilities are low on dmg and dont generate much focus. Since you can't pre-cast anything, Saber Throw is useless in a opener unless you use it from 10-12 m range and walk in to hit Sundering Strike. But since most of us are too lazy you can use Leap + Sundering Strike instead, Leap does a little less dmg then Saber Throw and they generate the same Focus, so in the long run it doesn't matter.

 

You could argue that Saber Throw + Leap is used for the armor debuff ST provides but Leap + Sundering Strike does more damage in 2 GCDs, generates more focus and triggers your 2 piece set.

[Dethla-Hadyn]

Dot dot smash. Dot dot smash.

 

Vengeance doesn't need a guide truth be told.

[GrandLordMenace]

Actually on most bosses you don't have to leap to start the fight. You can stay around 12 m from the boss and you wont aggro it. You have plenty of time to do Saber Throw, walk in and use Sundering Strike, its better then using Saber Throw + Leap, thats probably the worst opener you can have. Both of the abilities are low on dmg and dont generate much focus. Since you can't pre-cast anything, Saber Throw is useless in a opener unless you use it from 10-12 m range and walk in to hit Sundering Strike. But since most of us are too lazy you can use Leap + Sundering Strike instead, Leap does a little less dmg then Saber Throw and they generate the same Focus, so in the long run it doesn't matter.

 

You could argue that Saber Throw + Leap is used for the armor debuff ST provides but Leap + Sundering Strike does more damage in 2 GCDs, generates more focus and triggers your 2 piece set.

 

Saber throw does way more damage than sundering strike, are you crazy? It can crit for 7k...

[GrandLordMenace]

Fair enough, but you could have taken a bit of time to remove references that only apply to 3.0 and make sure you addressed everything new in 4.0 like the new utilities.

 

 

also when you wrote this;

 

I was a bit confused because watchman is a spec for sentinel, not guardian....

 

 

 

Thanks man, I'm glad someone else understands, I hope Ryd will too

 

The utilities are the same because NONE of the new utilities are useful for PVE. Not one. If you operate the rotation perfectly warbringer is junk, it's only useful for PVP, and even then, it's still useless cause of how it interacts with keening.

[drummerinthesun]

Actually on most bosses you don't have to leap to start the fight. You can stay around 12 m from the boss and you wont aggro it. You have plenty of time to do Saber Throw, walk in and use Sundering Strike, its better then using Saber Throw + Leap, thats probably the worst opener you can have. Both of the abilities are low on dmg and dont generate much focus. Since you can't pre-cast anything, Saber Throw is useless in a opener unless you use it from 10-12 m range and walk in to hit Sundering Strike. But since most of us are too lazy you can use Leap + Sundering Strike instead, Leap does a little less dmg then Saber Throw and they generate the same Focus, so in the long run it doesn't matter.

 

You could argue that Saber Throw + Leap is used for the armor debuff ST provides but Leap + Sundering Strike does more damage in 2 GCDs, generates more focus and triggers your 2 piece set.

 

I use saber throw and run in for a sunder. This ensures that there's the armor debuff immediately on the pull and I don't waste a GCD on charge. This triggers the 2 piece immediately when you're in range, as well. I just delay enrage by a few GCDs (the point at which to use it is obvious so I don't remember where it happens specifically). All those benefits aside, charge is a waste of an ability for a pull, in my opinion: low damage, unnecessary, and delays your Impale/OS by one GCD.

Edited November 7, 2015 by drummerinthesun

[GrandLordMenace]

Rydarus, I'm finally getting around to reading your 4.0 guide and I had some notes.

 

Any particular reason you chose to use the cooldown times affected by alacrity instead of describing them as GCDs? For examples, having BR and OS labeled as 6 GCDs rather than an 8.2 second cooldown?

 

In reference to gearing, why are you splitting alacrity and crit the way you've outlined? You mentioned you aren't following Goblin_Lackey's numbers but didn't put a reason why (other than mentioning accuracy). Just curious on that point.

 

I think your priority system would benefit from a graphic to show how the cooldowns interplay (similar to Oofalong's Annihilation guide). Reading "Also, every 32.616 seconds, Overhead Slash is used twice in one Plasma Brand, and the window after, Blade Storm is used twice in one window. This is the most resource intensive of the rotation, and where you ABSOLUTELY need extra resource in order to come out still rotationally sound." is going to confuse newer players, and could be shown much more simply with a graphic. In general, I really do think that a dummy parse is a set rotation, with the caveat of having main abilities and filler abilities. The main abilities being the 3 dots, and everything else labelled as filler. So you could break everything down into the cooldown interplay of the dot abilities (the set rotation), and the fillers broken down into a priority system.

 

I have an AoE rotation that shreds pretty much everything and is energy neutral:

Sunder>Plasma Brand>Vig Thrust>Cyclone Slash until Sunder comes off cooldown. There's no need to swap OS in there, in my opinion, especially since it's a weak dot. So you keep the Cyclone Slash debuff, your strongest dot going, and never need to worry about resources.

 

In general, I think the above poster has a valid point: you are writing the guide for people who are very familiar with the spec. Take a look at it with the perspective of someone who has never played before, and I think the guide would be improved for everyone (including the veterans). There really isn't anything cosmic about Vig/Vengeance, however simplicity would get your points across in a more solidified manner, in my opinion. Anyways, just my two cents. Thanks, as always, for taking the time to update the guide, post on these forums, and being a constant voice in support of this class/spec.

 

I don't follow goblin's numbers (though his numbers are infact based off of my logs to calculate how Force Rush interacts with the rotation over time), because I like having roughly 9% alacrity, no more, no less. I don't have anything against them, and I explicitly state that I don't think my gearing is 100% optimal, but rather is tailored towards my personal preference. I also designed it to require minimal changing between legacy sets (all my accuracy and alacrity are from enhancements and augments. Only variation across characters is crit chance and bonus damage, all else remains static.)

 

I don't like your aoe rotation because for it to work, it requires you to delay Vengeful Slam. My objective with my rotation is to NEVER delay Vengeful Slam, and in order to keep the DoT debuff up that way, you absolutely need to alternate DoTs because Vengeful Slam doesn't actually refresh DoTs, having a reserve DoT means there's always something to spread.

Edited November 7, 2015 by GrandLordMenace

[drummerinthesun]

I don't follow goblin's numbers (though his numbers are infact based off of my logs to calculate how Force Rush interacts with the rotation over time), because I like having roughly 9% alacrity, no more, no less. I don't have anything against them, and I explicitly state that I don't think my gearing is 100% optimal, but rather is tailored towards my personal preference. I also designed it to require minimal changing between legacy sets (all my accuracy and alacrity are from enhancements and augments. Only variation across characters is crit chance and bonus damage, all else remains static.)

 

I don't like your aoe rotation because for it to work, it requires you to delay Vengeful Slam. My objective with my rotation is to NEVER delay Vengeful Slam, and in order to keep the DoT debuff up that way, you absolutely need to alternate DoTs because Vengeful Slam doesn't actually refresh DoTs, having a reserve DoT means there's always something to spread.

 

I was just curious about your reasoning for gear. I think it should be something stated in the guide as a "here's why I do this", rather than "I don't use that guy's stats," without a reason

 

And yes, my AoE rotation is less than optimum, but it's very simple and most everything is dead by the time shatter/PB is ready to come off cooldown again in boss fights. However, since OS's bleed is only 6 seconds, is there enough overlap between its duration and the cooldown of PB coming up to always have a bleed ticking, or would you need to throw in a BR to ensure max bleed uptime? At that point, though, you're just using the single target rotation with cyclone slash as a filler, so it probably isn't worth it if you did.

[GrandLordMenace]

I was just curious about your reasoning for gear. I think it should be something stated in the guide as a "here's why I do this", rather than "I don't use that guy's stats," without a reason

 

And yes, my AoE rotation is less than optimum, but it's very simple and most everything is dead by the time shatter/PB is ready to come off cooldown again in boss fights. However, since OS's bleed is only 6 seconds, is there enough overlap between its duration and the cooldown of PB coming up to always have a bleed ticking, or would you need to throw in a BR to ensure max bleed uptime? At that point, though, you're just using the single target rotation with cyclone slash as a filler, so it probably isn't worth it if you did.

 

OHS is 9 seconds, BS is 6s (w/out alac)

 

I never use BS for AOE Rotation.

 

For actual boss fights, the biggest determining factor is A: having a dot up, and B: Vigilant Thrusting and Cyclone Slashing. For my highest Torque parse in 3.x, I essentially went full boar turret cyclone slash spamming. The benefit of a Knight is that we can do what a gunslinger can with sweeping gunfire, only infinitely. Refine your AOE enough and you can solo all the floor adds and turrets while your other dps light the boss on fire.

Edited November 7, 2015 by GrandLordMenace

[drummerinthesun]

OHS is 9 seconds, BS is 6s (w/out alac)

 

I never use BS for AOE Rotation.

 

For actual boss fights, the biggest determining factor is A: having a dot up, and B: Vigilant Thrusting and Cyclone Slashing. For my highest Torque parse in 3.x, I essentially went full boar turret cyclone slash spamming. The benefit of a Knight is that we can do what a gunslinger can with sweeping gunfire, only infinitely. Refine your AOE enough and you can solo all the floor adds and turrets while your other dps light the boss on fire.

 

Burning purpose gives Overhead Slash a 6 second bleed, not 9 seconds (without alacrity). The cooldown is 9 seconds, so there's 3 seconds of no burn between OHS uses. I can see what you mean for the Torque, fight, though.

[Ookverbermin]

oh well, I guess I'll just wait for another guide, or maybe switch to focus....

[RussellRichter]

doing 6400 rn with mostly 216s still /shrug

 

Idk I'm still messing around with stats quite a bit, I just can't stand running alacrity so I'm trying to find a way around it lol

Edited November 7, 2015 by RussellRichter

[GrandLordMenace]

oh well, I guess I'll just wait for another guide, or maybe switch to focus....

 

What is your actual problem with the guide? Seriously is there some magical thing I'm missing that 4.0 somehow brought into the game that I didn't notice? Cause out of the nearly 6,288 hours I've invested into my main alone, about 200 of which have been dedicated to 4.0, I have yet to find this mystical thing you're seeking.

 

If you mean old videos, those will inevitably be replaced when I inevitably kill enough of the new/oldcontent to replace them.

[GrandLordMenace]

Imma back on top http://parsely.io/parser/view/87038/2

[GrandLordMenace]

just got my 224 mh, we'll see how it plays soon enough.

[GrandLordMenace]

Welp it's time for war.

 

http://s3.mmoguildsites.com/s3/gallery_images/873198/original.PNG?1447284419

[Dethla-Hadyn]

Welp it's time for war.

 

http://s3.mmoguildsites.com/s3/gallery_images/873198/original.PNG?1447284419

 

 

 

hahaha

 

ha.ha.ha.ha... how many freaking melee characters do you have.

[xeqtoRDoom]

just got my 224 mh, we'll see how it plays soon enough.

 

Is there a big difference between 220 and 224 mh ?