Game Update 3.0 Class Changes: Scoundrel + Operative

[cyrusramsey]

...Feel the butthurt...

 

Where did the bad nerf touch you?

 

I have multiple characters for every class, I play every class, I enjoy every class to some extent. I enjoy the ones that are very effective and the ones that are less so. I have no interest in one class being better than another, I will always play them all anyway. What hurts is when elements that are fun are being cut with the excuse of balance (read: because pvp) instead of simply rebalancing what was there already.

 

And this is not just for Scoundrels and Operatives, I am unhappy with several other changes too, though ripping all the fun and interesting elements out of a class that I admit I find lots of fun to play with, then yeah, I lost my faith in bioware. Everything needs to give way for the 'because pvp'.

[Sinapus]

A more balanced game.

 

Why do I suspect in your case "balance" isn't a freakish attempt to cripple everyone into "equality", just the things you don't like?

 

 

No, I'm not going to make a dramatic "SUBSCRIPTION CANCELLED" post. I'll wait til the release, try the classes and if I find the "balance" to be too annoying to deal with, I'll simply not renew my subscription and go find something else to do with my time. I already deal with annoying things at work, I'm not looking to expand it into my free time.

[Levram]

Looks like my imagination took form, eh Levram?

 

By the way...that's not histrionic, thats sarcasm.

 

Actually, that's not sarcasm as your statement "looks like my imagination took form" lacks irony, a core requirement of sarcasm.

[Khantalas]

I love how PvP players complain about changes because of PvE concern, and PvE players complain about changes because of PvP concerns, and very few people (usually not the people actually complaining) have any idea how things will work out in practice.

 

No, that's not sarcasm. It actually gives me joy and happiness to see people completely talk past each other all the time. I might be an awful person.

 

That said. I'm kind of sad I won't be able to load my shotgun for several minutes, doing nothing else but waiting for my energy to regenerate when it runs out, but I hope Shank Shot will make up for it.

[Stonehound]

Oh please. Take your hyperbole some where else. Blizzard has been nerfing classes for years upon years. If we were to believe everything QQ artists have been saying, you'd think they'd have shuttered doors by now. Yet they STILL, are blowing the doors off the market. These changes will do nothing.

Blizzard is riding high on market inertia and the power of the sunk-cost fallacy. People don't play WoW because it's a good game. WoW would have to be a good game for that to be the case.

 

No, people play WoW because their friends are already playing, the pool of potential guildies is massive, they already have multiple dudes at the old level cap (which represents a titanic quantity of time invested), and it can run on a toaster. Quantity has a quality all its own where MMOs are concerned, you see; more players means a bigger social pool, which draws more players. WoW is huge because it's huge. The sheer size is self perpetuating.

 

TOR lacks that kind of inertia, doesn't have anywhere near the "I-already-spent-a-million-hours-on-that-toon" power, and actually has system requirements. It can't afford the giant botches that WoW got away with; even at a million plus subs, it's still only (roughly) a tenth of that size. Bioware can't count on juggernaut factor the way Blizzard can. Quality is a must.

 

We'll have to see how this actually works out in practice, but so far my subscription's prognosis is looking pretty dire and my Scoundrel is not very likely to see any of my very limited amount of remaining 12x time.

[leoprietobombero]

Goodbye hidden strike ... Thanks for all ... I will miss you

[mandoforlife]

Goodbye hidden strike ... Thanks for all ... I will miss you

 

This. I am VERY sad we are losing this ability. Overall, I'm not sure these changes appeal to me very much. It feels like we're losing more than we're gaining. On the bright side, I suppose lethality has only improved.

[Dark_Mithrandir]

Well, considering that the best operative healers can currently solo-heal all nightmare Dread Fortress and Dread Palace fights except for Brontes, Tyrans, Raptus and Council, your exaggeration isn't completely unfounded.

 

Brontes,Raptus and Council. Tyrans can be solo healed "easily"

To be honest tho that content has been dmg nerfed to the ground. Calling it NiM is a bad joke.

It's just a good place to train deeps

[Darth_Orias]

I’ve been rather disappointed after watching the live stream. Hidden Strike being “just another thing on your toolbar” comment does not really inspire confidence in how well the devs know the class. Moreover, it’s been admitted that removal of Hidden Strike leads to an unintentional nerf to our burst that might be fixed by making Backstab not trigger cooldown when used from stealth. If this becomes a problem. Now, the question is, if they already know it’s an unintentional nerf, why not implement it right now? Or at least change Backstab CD to the original 8 seconds. True, there’s under a week left until early access, but I somehow doubt that such changes would take a lot of effort. It also does not help that without Hidden Strike we lose our ability to use the next Backstab regardless of the target’s facing. This is only really relevant in PvE fights against mobs immune to stuns/control abilities, but it was a very nice QoL improvement that shouldn’t be taken away.

 

It’s good to see that Explosive Probe is being fully substituted by Volatile Substance, however we get it at level 57, which seems to be a bit too high given that it’s supposedly a replacement for an on-demand burst ability that existed before. In general, some of the passive abilities to increase damage seem to be placed a bit too high in the discipline.

 

The lack of any sort of CC immunity provided is also quite unfortunate, given that Assassins and especially Juggernauts (the latter already have a range of very impressive defensive abilities and the former have Force Shroud which pretty much makes them immune to most stuns and mezzes, albeit for a shorter time, and better defensives than Operatives) receive it.

 

A milder gripe, Jarring Strikes being put into Heroic Utilities where it’s unlikely to be ever taken due to much better options available. The extra interrupt is useful and it initial removal (due to the loss of knockdown effect for Hidden Strike) was apparently not intended. Why not leave it as a passive ability in Concealment and put another heroic utility in its place?

 

That said, the playstyle will probably remain similar to what we’ve seen with a few minor changes. We’ll see how it fares in the new meta.

[AnisaBadgett]

I'm just *thankful* they released this information last, right before the big American holiday. At least the PR department can still think tactically.

 

[Glaciata]

Brontes,Raptus and Council. Tyrans can be solo healed "easily"

To be honest tho that content has been dmg nerfed to the ground. Calling it NiM is a bad joke.

It's just a good place to train deeps

IMO I'd rather run a NiM though DP than a NiM through EC...even after all this time, that **** is balls out worse than anything they've thrown at us since.

[Aikiyc]

I'm really disappointed in the operative changes as a whole. On so many different levels. First and foremost of which is a general concern that all the healers basically have the same kit to draw from with the new heals introduced. Not much in the way of differences?

 

I could be all nitpicky about all this ******** with concealment (leth looks decent-ish), but I'm just going to stick with Acid Blade/Hidden Strike.

 

When I opened from stealth, in PvP or PvE, it was something like Acid Blade > Hidden Strike > Shiv > Corrosive Dart > Lacerate > Lacerate > Acid Blade > Backstab > killy-stabby things. This may not optimize for maximal straight upfront damage ASAP, but it maximizes total damage after a period of 12 seconds, because both Acid Blades are allowed their full 6 second duration. Longer if you blow Cloaking Screen for another Acid Blade/Hidden Strike to repeat the above rotation a second time.

 

If we lose Hidden Strike, and Backstab still has a CD longer than 6 seconds (the duration of Acid Blade), we are seriously ****ed in the burst department. But of course, we can't have a Backstab with a 6 second CD cause that would mean endless Acid Blade which definitely is too much. So why not just keep Hidden Strike?!

 

If BioWare can't see that as is now, when the hell are they gonna get their **** together and make ability maps to SEE this problem? Unless of course Concealment isn't supposed to have burst, in which case sayonara. I'll play something else that still fits the role it's supposed to.

 

It's just unbelievable to me that this error with AB/HS is sliding through their testing.

[Jepac]

Sadness. My poor PvE Operative is already too weak to complete Oricon, and now they're getting nerfed even more? I think I'll just go lurk in my screencaps folder and wax nostalgic about the good old days back in 2012 when Orbital Strike was more than an Orbital Tickle, and Operative was the most fun you could have on your own.

 

*Sigh*. Vector, do you think there's room for one more Joiner in your hive? At least we would be content.

[bbg_rex]

Sadness. My poor PvE Operative is already too weak to complete Oricon, and now they're getting nerfed even more? I think I'll just go lurk in my screencaps folder and wax nostalgic about the good old days back in 2012 when Orbital Strike was more than an Orbital Tickle, and Operative was the most fun you could have on your own.

 

*Sigh*. Vector, do you think there's room for one more Joiner in your hive? At least we would be content.

 

I say the same thing Vector do you have room for me toooooooo.

[Kryma]

The changes are just stupid. The class was laughable in both PVE and PVP damage wise.

Healing spec was the only thing decent or good to make you play this class. I expected boosts for DPS and not in any case nerfs. Now you can delete your character with no remorse. When DEVS will see the disaster few months later when none will play the class will be too late.. but who cares?

I'm so sorry I pre-ordered the expansion one week ago and now I receive nerfs in return.... GJ DEVS

[Tamanous]

Sadness. My poor PvE Operative is already too weak to complete Oricon, and now they're getting nerfed even more? I think I'll just go lurk in my screencaps folder and wax nostalgic about the good old days back in 2012 when Orbital Strike was more than an Orbital Tickle, and Operative was the most fun you could have on your own.

 

*Sigh*. Vector, do you think there's room for one more Joiner in your hive? At least we would be content.

 

 

What gear you running? My concealment operative in 162,168 and 2 180 pieces can solo the Heroic-2.

 

I can't judge upcoming changes until played. I will withhold my opinion until then ... as should most others.

[Bearoak]

First of all, thanks for finally admitting that class balancing at this stage of game development revolves around Pvp.

 

"this rebalancing is only aimed to bring Scoundrel healing down to a level that allows other healers to be more competitive and prevents Scoundrel healing from trivializing PvE content that is meant to be challenging"

 

Second, what has been done to help counter the negative effect it will have in Pve? I'm not taking about an 8 man heal either. The other heal classes are getting something similar for OPS in this balance too.

Third, add all of the heal loss mentioned with the base ability loss of sabotage charge and orbital strike and it will be something to look forward to alright. This sounds not so much like balance, as we couldn't figure out how to fix the instant heal issue. However, that is what makes the class unique. Unfortunately.

 

"so players of the discipline should brace themselves"

 

I'm glad I have other classes to play if the update is bad as I think for Agents and Smugglers. It would have probably been more well received to have gotten rid of a tree and added a tank line instead. I was hoping for a use for that cunning/absorb cannon I looted on Ord Mantell.

[Khantalas]

I'm glad I have other classes to play if the update is bad as I think for Agents and Smugglers.

 

It's probably not, and you are probably jumping the gun.

 

Try this one on for size: every other update, at least one PvP player complained about the changes made to cater to those "filthy PvEers". Accusations of their class being ruined forever in PvP, without seeing how all the changes interact with each other, ran rampart. Do you really think that such outcry from PvPers would occur if the balances were tailor made for PvP and completely ignored the PvE side?

 

((Sadly, the answer is probably "yes", and I'm just being overly optimistic in hoping people don't make snap decisions based on incomplete information, like all the information we received so far, so take that as a rhetorical question.))

Edited November 28, 2014 by Khantalas

[Belecfaron]

((Sadly, the answer is probably "yes", and I'm just being overly optimistic in hoping people don't make snap decisions based on incomplete information, like all the information we received so far, so take that as a rhetorical question.))

 

Bear in mind that when asked specifically about the lack of defensive cooldowns that would allow an Operative to stick in a sustained PvP fight the devs were at a loss for an answer. Their math is probably spot on, but their vision of Operative as a sustained-stealth-dps package doesn't translate into reality.

 

Their answer to that question raised the spectre of an offensive shadowstep ability, but that ignores the crux of the question: survival when in a fight (a problem that keeps DPS operatives and Snipers out of Ranked). As they have not acknowledged the problems present now, I have little faith for them to solve any problems they create.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Belecfaron

[Khantalas]

Here's what I think about the changes, in general:

 

1) 3.0 won't be perfect, because no game is perfect except tic tac toe, where you will never lose if you know what you are doing, but that has to do with how few moving parts there are. But there is. 90% or higher chance it also isn't going to be as horrible as people think it is, because at this point we are talking about ET the video game levels of horrible being speculated.

 

2) Bioware isn't that great with multiplayer, cooperative or competitive, but it is also impossible to make every class perform the same in every situation even if they fill the same role without making them the same. Some specs are going to be better at Voidstar, and some are going to be better at Huttball.

 

3) Ranked arenas are imperfect in a way I can't figure out how to fix. 8-man warzones are too much reliant on teamwork to be put in solo ranked, and I don't do enough PvP, or think about it enough, to come up with an alternate that can test individual skill without putting one class or another in a disadvantage. In my server, at least, smugglers/agents perform brilliantly in unranked matches, because they are less about immediate survivability.

 

4) I don't think Bioware balances things solely based on PvP or PvE. It's just that PvPers are loud, PvE content is doled out sparingly, and PvP doesn't come with a "must know tactics" tag attached, so most of the small changes seem more relevant to PvP. Come 3.0 and later, with newer PvE content and a recalibration of old ones, I think (with about 70% confidence, because if Bioware delivered all they promise, they'd be my favorite game developer instead of not being in top ten) there will be a lot more rebalancing focused on PvE based on live information, instead of what we have right now (even public PTS can only reveal so much).

 

Now, what does this all have to do with scoundrels/operatives? Frankly, not much. Other than the sad loss of the Flechette round animation, I simply don't know enough about what all these changes, plus the ones we haven't even heard about and were impossible to see in a demonstration against combat dummies, will result in, so I'm taking a wait and see approach, as I do with all the classes, in both PvP and PvE. But seeing how this is the last class pair to be showcased, and the attitude of "everything is ruined forever because of those Pv(insert letter here) players" has never gone away since the first, I wanted to vent it all out and accept the backlash. Everything isn't ruined forever, there is just a new paradigm, and everything is in flux. If you don't like what you are seeing, come back in six months, when the combat details will likely be unrecognizable from however 3.0 will turn out. Or unsubscribe, and accept that just because you paid money for a game doesn't mean you are required to find it enjoyable forever. But don't make assumptions based on what classes do now, and they did in the streams, which is the combat equivalent of a white featureless void, because it won't be helpful.

 

((For the record, Belecfaron, you are the first person I've seen in some time, other than TACeMossie, who has made a reasonable argument about balance instead of simply stating their conclusion as undisputable fact, so you have my respect.))

[Halinalle]

Bear in mind that when asked specifically about the lack of defensive cooldowns that would allow an Operative to stick in a sustained PvP fight the devs were at a loss for an answer. Their math is probably spot on, but their vision of Operative as a sustained-stealth-dps package doesn't translate into reality.

 

Their answer to that question raised the spectre of an offensive shadowstep ability, but that ignores the crux of the question: survival when in a fight (a problem that keeps DPS operatives and Snipers out of Ranked). As they have not acknowledged the problems present now, I have little faith for them to solve any problems they create.

 

Do Operatives need more defensive cooldowns?

 

If you ever have 1vs1 with operative it will go like this:

- Get stunned before you even see that operative

- Stabbystabby

- Get stunned again

- Stabbystabby

- Get stunned again

- Stabbystabby

- You're dead

[Sorkenna]

Little advice for you :

If you fight an operative who stun you 3 times, report him for hack/bug exploit.

Operatives have only 1 stun, debilitate, on a 45 sec cd (can be reduce to 30 sec).

Of course operatives have 2 mezz (flash bang and sleep dart) and a root (severe tendon in concealment spe) but a root and a mezz are very different from a stun (you knew that I hope?).

Edited November 28, 2014 by Sorkenna

[Kantor_omicron]

 

If you ever have 1vs1 with operative it will go like this:

- Get stunned before you even see that operative

- Stabbystabby

- Get stunned again

- Stabbystabby

- Get stunned again

- Stabbystabby

- You're dead

 

Yeah. That class (what its name? I wanna play it) you're talking about certainly need nerfs. But we talking about operatives here.

[Halinalle]

Little advice for you :

If you fight an operative who stun you 3 times, report him for hack/bug exploit.

Operatives have only 1 stun, debilitate, on a 45 sec cd (can be reduce to 30 sec).

Of course operatives have 2 mezz (flash bang and sleep dart) and a root (severe tendon in concealment spe) but a root and a mezz are very different from a stun (you knew that I hope?).

 

I'm talking about abilities that prevent you from moving and unable to use any abilities (including stun break) for few a seconds. And when you finally can use your stun break you're going to be locked down again.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Halinalle

[Chaos_Distortion]

I'm talking about abilities that prevent you from moving and unable to use any abilities (including stun break) for few a seconds. And when you finally can use your stun break you're going to be locked down again.

Scoundrels/OPs haven't had more than one stun for months, since they removed the stun component out of KO/Shootfirst Scoundrels/OPs haven't been able to stun someone more than once. I don't know what game you're playing or what version of SWTOR you're playing but it sure isn't the live version of SWTOR.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Chaos_Distortion