To the Devs working on Disciplines: Remember the NGE?

[AstralFire]

I don't check these forums regularly at all and yet I've already recognized OP's name as "guy who hates disciplines and refuses to let anything tell him otherwise."

 

Your fears are understandable, even if I do not share them.

 

Repetition of the same point without new arguments, however, is just spam.

[TheCardinal]

I don't check these forums regularly at all and yet I've already recognized OP's name as "guy who hates disciplines and refuses to let anything tell him otherwise."

 

Your fears are understandable, even if I do not share them.

 

Repetition of the same point without new arguments, however, is just spam.

 

No I don't hate them, I fail to see the value in the change to them.

 

I don't fear anything regarding this, I always have the option to cancel the sub and leave

 

To change something is one thing, if it's for the better, this to me ain't that, it's to make it easier for the Dev's that's all.

 

As someone just said, running thrue content to fast, well, regardless if one does or not, hands on, how many here after doing the same FP/Ops 100+ times still think it's fun, or even hard ?.

 

I did EV HM yesterday with 4 ppl, hard, not really, fun, no. Why, Coms plain and simple.

[Gomla]

SWG revamped the entire game to try and compete with the games that were coming out. Not just WoW but Everquest 2, DAoC (oh how I miss the good old days with you DAoC) and other games that were more player friendly.

 

Before 2004 and the more player friendly MMO's turned up we had an incredibly niche genre. We didn;t have millions of players, at most we had a couple of hundred thousand per MMO and that was considered good.

 

Now, if you don't have half the world playing people consider it a failure but that's an argument for another day.

 

2004 and the games releasing then brought in more player. MMO's became accessible to the masses. SWG's player base didn;t want accessible, they liked things as they were. Yes people were leaving, people always leave every game ever, but it still had a good core group of player that would have stuck around. A lot did still stick around, i'll give them their due.

 

SOE tried to tap into that new player market and stop it's current players jumping ship if you will but all it did was put off the players it already had.

 

Long story short, be happy with what you have. If you change things too much some people will leave. This game doesn't have a good reputation in a lot of gaming communities but it's doing alright. Hopefully these new changes won't upset it's player base too much.

[AstralFire]

I can think of multiple utility options I would like to get currently that aren't worth the cost, at max level.

 

I can think of multiple alts that I don't have any fun playing right now because I have to go through several levels without key abilities that make their specs fun.

 

The devs spending less time on fixing existing content and more time on new content.

 

Three plusses I can think of right there.

[Raansu]

You're getting capstone talents in the 20's now (based on thundering blast being level 26 now)

 

Utilities > skill tree. Based on sorc. Madness spec is getting access to bubble stun, instant WW, root on overload etc....You are getting more utility while having full madness abilities in the new system.

 

Disciplines =/= NGE. Not even on the same scale and disciplines is a massive improvement over the skill tree system. People want to go on about hybrids, but you will get more diversity out of the utilities than out of the skill trees.

 

Hybrids currently are dumb. Play the damn game how its meant to be played, as in full spec.

[TUXs]

You're getting capstone talents in the 20's now (based on thundering blast being level 26 now)

 

Utilities > skill tree. Based on sorc. Madness spec is getting access to bubble stun, instant WW, root on overload etc....You are getting more utility while having full madness abilities in the new system.

 

Disciplines =/= NGE. Not even on the same scale and disciplines is a massive improvement over the skill tree system. People want to go on about hybrids, but you will get more diversity out of the utilities than out of the skill trees.

 

Hybrids currently are dumb. Play the damn game how its meant to be played, as in full spec.

 

^^THIS!!!

 

Excellent reply Raansu. It's a HUGE improvement to leveling AND end-game play. Your point about where the capstone talents are rewarded, is something I think most players are oblivious to...it can't be emphasized enough...that alone makes this a brilliant update! I'm anxious for it!!!

[Max_Killjoy]

Play the damn game how its meant to be played

 

Or at least, how Raansu imagines it was meant to be played... also, make sure you're constantly grouped, or you're a filthy solo-player who should switch to angry birds...

 

 

^^THIS!!!

 

Excellent reply Raansu. It's a HUGE improvement to leveling AND end-game play. Your point about where the capstone talents are rewarded, is something I think most players are oblivious to...it can't be emphasized enough...that alone makes this a brilliant update! I'm anxious for it!!!

 

And never mind that many of the current "capstone" skills range from uninspiring to crap... let's just force everyone to take one whether they care for it or not.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[TUXs]

And never mind that many of the current "capstone" skills range from uninspiring to crap... let's just force everyone to take one whether they care for it or not.

For your solo playstyle, they may...but this is an MMO which must cater to the greater good.

[LordArtemis]

For your solo playstyle, they may...but this is an MMO which must cater to the greater good.

 

The greater good is not catering to the minority playerbase IMO (which seems to have been the case up to now with respect to balance), but if this change truly does mean more content for casual players and less ability changes, I would concur with that sentiment.

[azudelphi]

The greater good is not catering to the minority playerbase IMO (which seems to have been the case up to now with respect to balance), but if this change truly does mean more content for casual players and less ability changes, I would concur with that sentiment.

 

Well, even for solo players it's potentially a boon. Capstone abilities in the mid-20's should make for a more enjoyable leveling experience.

[Max_Killjoy]

For your solo playstyle, they may...but this is an MMO which must cater to the greater good.

 

I'm speaking of them for any use -- my 55 Scoundrel is a giant mess (and admittedly more of a struggle to play in certain spots than other characters) because none of the trees appear worthy pursuing in full. It's a rotten build because nothing looks worth taking (I'm not at home so I can't get into details of why right now). Doing endgame group content with that character wouldn't change the massive mountain of MEH that is the upper half of all three trees.

 

 

Well, even for solo players it's potentially a boon. Capstone abilities in the mid-20's should make for a more enjoyable leveling experience.

 

Only if there's a "capstone" skill you give a damn about for that class.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[TUXs]

The greater good is not catering to the minority playerbase IMO (which seems to have been the case up to now with respect to balance), but if this change truly does mean more content for casual players and less ability changes, I would concur with that sentiment.

The "greater good" is balance in a game where balance is everything...everything from PvP to PvE revolves around balance and the traditional trinity roles. This move has nothing to do with more content...where did you get that idea? It's about balance and making it so that a 5 level cap increase doesn't break the entire flipping game.

[azudelphi]

I'm speaking of them for any use -- my 55 Scoundrel is a giant mess (and admittedly more of a struggle to play in certain spots than other characters) because none of the trees appear worthy pursuing in full. It's a rotten build because nothing looks worth taking (I'm not at home so I can't get into details of why right now). Doing endgame group content with that character wouldn't change the massive mountain of MEH that is the upper half of all three trees.

 

Only if there's a "capstone" skill you give a damn about for that class.

 

There's only one capstone skill that I've seen that is totally worthless... and it's not for a sorc / sage.

 

Flame Burst for tactics Vanguards appears worthless to me. Then again, I take full knowledge that I haven't fully studied that class yet.

Edited October 15, 2014 by azudelphi

[TUXs]

I'm speaking of them for any use -- my 55 Scoundrel is a giant mess (and admittedly more of a struggle to play in certain spots than other characters) because none of the trees appear worthy pursuing in full. It's a rotten build because nothing looks worth taking (I'm not at home so I can't get into details of why right now). Doing endgame group content with that character wouldn't change the massive mountain of MEH that is the upper half of all three trees.

But see, that is EXACTLY what they're eliminating with this update Max...that entire middle section of nearly every freaking class that had to expand with fluff skills for 2.0, is being eliminated so we didn't have to add in MORE fluff "skills" for 3.0.

[PlagaNerezza]

Now I know there are going to be trolls, fanboys and cult followers trashing my thread here, and I am prepared for that.

 

That said, DEVs, before you introduce the Disciplines system to the game, in effect dumbing down the game from a chess game to a checkers game, I highly recommend you go read, and re-read the history of the NGE in SWG.

 

Keep in mind, while you have a larger group in SWTOR, you have many of the old SWG customers, and many of them this is fresh in their mind. You also need to ask yourself, who was asking for this change? The customers or the employees? Because ever lame excuse I've seen it was "it will make it easier for us" and not "our customers were asking for"

 

Here is an article where the President of SEO bemoans the utter stupidity of changing the game the way the NGE did: http://www.edge-online.com/news/star-wars-galaxies-changes-complete-and-utter-fail-says-soe-president/

 

If you are going to radically change the game this much, you need to be 100% absolutely fraking sure you are not going to enrage your customers and destroy the social network of the game by doing something that makes players leave the game.

 

Don't repeat history and piss off your current customers. If even a 1/4 of the customers dont like this system it will cause major problems for SWTOR.

 

Frankly, they have already removed choice in many trees with the level 55 skill tree revamp. It removed many hybrid builds. The bottom line to this being successful is that their are still trees with terrible top end skills. If this addresses those classes that have hybrids due to this failure to provide value in the top of the tree its a non-issue for most people. I do agree that this makes the game feel "easy-mode", but frankly when you respec today most classes its not like your speccing into something crazy. I do agree with you that this better feel like an enhancement. I don't like when they do things that make the game easier to code over service.

 

Just remove the entire selection. Make me pick a tree and give me everything in the tree. If I get a choice of a couple things from another tree let me just pick the 3 things you want us to pick between. Don't make me waste time with "pretend" options in the tree/discipline that I am specc'ed into. You can take this really crappy skill or this shinny one is a pretend choice. Frankly, this game got really simple with the introduction of 51-55. Its going to get even easier with 3.0.

 

The issue with the NGE was that SWG was designed to provide complex gameplay. It wasn't a raid game. They saw wow's raid style easy to play and wanted those subscriber numbers. The failure was that its paying customers rather enjoyed the complex hard to balance system with crafting We enjoyed the unique snowflake feel. SWTOR was always a raid game. It always mimic'd wows mechanics.

 

SWTOR was never about unique characters. Its skill system was about some choice but they always intended you to take the top skill in the tree. Its was poor skills that allowed hybrids and created balance issues. They are just "fixing" it. I just hope they get ride of the illusion that I have choice in my tree. Stop pretending that anyone takes certain skills. All that does is lets players make stupid decisions. Like a skill point to lightning charge damage or armor when in lightning stance, but you are a tank running dark charge. Or a juggie running a stance and dropping points into a stance you don't use like increases damage of x when in Shin-choo when your in Shien. The choices you legitimately have are like 3 things.

[PlagaNerezza]

The "greater good" is balance in a game where balance is everything...everything from PvP to PvE revolves around balance and the traditional trinity roles. This move has nothing to do with more content...where did you get that idea? It's about balance and making it so that a 5 level cap increase doesn't break the entire flipping game.

 

They will never be able to balance the game. It just makes it easier. Last I checked we still have different skills and abilities by class. Some heal tree is going to be vastly superior than another from another class. It just reduces the risk of making a hybrid OP spec.

[_NovaBlast_]

I personally dont like the skill tree so I am looking forward to seeing how the disciplines will work

[_NovaBlast_]

For your solo playstyle, they may...but this is an MMO which must cater to the greater good.

 

Yet another person referring to MMO when trying to put group play above solo play . Again MMO simply refers to massively multiplayer online . It does not mean that the "multi players " must group guild or in any way be social while doing so.

 

It simply is referring to many people accessing the same environment at the same time. Solo play should be the core of an mmo with groups / guilds being side dishes and completely optional.

 

People who advocate forced group play are simply thinking of themselves.

Edited October 15, 2014 by _NovaBlast_

[Jadescythe]

Yet another person referring to MMO when trying to put group play above solo play . Again MMO simply refers to massively multiplayer online . It does not mean that the "multi players " must group guild or in any way be social while doing so.

 

It simply is referring to many people accessing the same environment at the same time. Solo play should be the core of an mmo with groups / guilds being side dishes and completely optional.

 

People who advocate forced group play are simply thinking of themselves.

 

I agree there should be solo play options in the game because many players don't want to group all the time or sometimes may just be hopping on to get something done in a short time span. The differentiating factor of an MMO, however, is the ability to group and play with other players. If you don't stress that point and those options, then there is no reason to make an MMO when a single player RPG gives you SO many more options to delve deeper into the story, the skills, and the environment.

 

I'm not saying single player content isn't important (I play solo a lot), but the group factor makes this different than single player games. Buying an MMO to play solo content with other people around is the same as buying a semi truck to go to the grocery store. It will get the job done, but is extremely inconvenient compared to a normal car.

[ivanhedgehog]

The "greater good" is balance in a game where balance is everything...everything from PvP to PvE revolves around balance and the traditional trinity roles. This move has nothing to do with more content...where did you get that idea? It's about balance and making it so that a 5 level cap increase doesn't break the entire flipping game.

 

City of Heroes did something similar, enhancement diversification and global defense nerf. there was a similar outcry when they did it, but it allowed them to make invention io system which resulted in much more powerful characters and a huge diversity in builds. successful builds, not just a bunch of gimped builds. if the debs dont have to worry constantly about game breaking balance bugs they can make new, different content, not just another flash point.

[_NovaBlast_]

I agree there should be solo play options in the game because many players don't want to group all the time or sometimes may just be hopping on to get something done in a short time span. The differentiating factor of an MMO, however, is the ability to group and play with other players. If you don't stress that point and those options, then there is no reason to make an MMO when a single player RPG gives you SO many more options to delve deeper into the story, the skills, and the environment.

 

I'm not saying single player content isn't important (I play solo a lot), but the group factor makes this different than single player games. Buying an MMO to play solo content with other people around is the same as buying a semi truck to go to the grocery store. It will get the job done, but is extremely inconvenient compared to a normal car.

 

I don't agree with your single player games should be reduced to single player format. I think in a lot of ways Swtor makes a great single player game in a mmo format personally think of it as KOTOR3 but it forces grouping to much. There is nothing wrong with group play if thats what you like to do . It's Forced group play that I have an issue with .

 

Let your community decied . If all grouping is completely optional and your not going to miss any thing ( content or gameplay altering rewards) then the players who want to group will group the players who don't wont . If it turns out the majority of your player want to solo then yes there will be higher que times for groups .

 

Which is what the complaint is with the solo reasoning . People want to "force " others to group who don't want to simply to reduce their que time and to me that type of thinking is a completely selfish mindset with similarities to a dictatorship not a free society

Edited October 15, 2014 by _NovaBlast_

[Rafaman]

Some people were really scarred by NGE weren't they? It is the default cry when there are any changes to any game; even when those changes are in no way congruent to NGE.

[Malastare]

They will never be able to balance the game. It just makes it easier.

 

That is true.

 

Last I checked we still have different skills and abilities by class. Some heal tree is going to be vastly superior than another from another class.

 

That is not.

 

At best, its exaggeration. The difference between an Op/Scoundrel healer and a Sorc/Sage healer right now is not "vastly" different. One is preferred, perhaps, but the differences are not huge. However, humans are great at seeking out any advantage, and exploiting it, and when we do that, it feels like its a huge advantage... even when it might only be something like 4% on a good day.

 

The DIsciplines system will make it easier for Bioware to reduce that percentage. However, it doesn't need to be 0% to be effective. Even now, player skill is more important than your AC. I've seen plenty of great Sages who outperform Scoundrel healers. And I've seen Powertechs who outperform hybrid Juggernauts. That's going to continue to happen with any system created. The balance only needs to be improved to the point where Ops leaders don't care whether you're a Sorc or an Op, or a Marauder rather than a Merc.

[BuriDogshin]

Stupied posts like I think yours is don't belong here since you do not offer any opinion except for a single player that would be me, but you have my offer above here and NEXT time, post something usefull or not at all.

You haven't posted anything useful, so why should anyone else?

 

Besides, I think asking you to please quit is useful. Follow the logic:

• Getting rid of annoying nuisances is usefull.
  
• People who create a lot of noise on the forums over things they know nothing about are annoying nuisance.
  
• QED: trying to get rid of you is useful.
  

[Mariojediwookie]

Sorry but from what I've read about the changes so far, what they did to SWG was completely different. This is from someone who had unlocked a Jedi by having to Master 29 professions (if my memory serves me right) in SWG. They DESTROYED the crafting professions and literally made people cookie cutter over night.

 

This game actually reminds me a lot of what that NGE was but it's just much better combat and a lot better missions. SWG for the longest time had no story experiences, it was just roam around and kill **** for hours on end. When I leveled my Jedi, had to do it solo for months.

 

Trust me, this change doesn't even come close to what was done with SWG.