Petition to Stop Disciplines "Improvement"

[Quraswren]

I doubt pure healers were using different (or drastically different) specs from every other pure healer to begin with.

 

I doubt it either but if your selling this new system on how you get to choose various skills others might not, then it might be best to actually do that.

 

For PVE healing, nothing much seems to have mattered.

 

For PVP, I feel it has at least a little more options.

 

To much PVP in what we see now and not enough PVE option. There needs to be more interesting options to choose from. Right now, its still basically cookie cutter.

[Technohic]

Looking at the calculator for sorc, which I probably know the least about; I think I like it better. Looks like some utilities which might have been out of reach without shorting my main tree and taking stuff i really do not care that much for, are not options available to all trees. Still. Need it to be in a class I am familiar with more to really get a good idea.

[Ottoattack]

Looking at the calculator for sorc, which I probably know the least about; I think I like it better. Looks like some utilities which might have been out of reach without shorting my main tree and taking stuff i really do not care that much for, are not options available to all trees. Still. Need it to be in a class I am familiar with more to really get a good idea.

 

As someone who plays sorc, lightning and healing would defiantly be stronger, but madness will be significantly over powered. There is a reason while madness should not have access to electric binds and bubble mez. I understand that this is not final, but there is no way madness should have access to the root on overload on top of the spammable root from creeping terror.

[Elfa]

At first I was freaked out because I have 12 55's and setting all of them up would suck but after playing with Dulfy's calculator, it seems so easy, I actually WANT to set up each class and advanced class.

 

As someone who plays sorc, lightning and healing would defiantly be stronger, but madness will be significantly over powered. There is a reason while madness should not have access to electric binds and bubble mez. I understand that this is not final, but there is no way madness should have access to the root on overload on top of the spammable root from creeping terror.

 

You can't say it's over powered until you see what the other classes will have at least.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Elfa

[Ghost_Spectre]

I refuse to purchase the expansion until the Discipline system is removed.

Either learn to adapt or quit. You don't want do this, not buying the expansion is your choice. However, I fail to see how this will in any way (your petition to stop them) will do anything, if at all. To me it sounds like you cannot accept change and refuse to see the benefits or even give it a chance before you pass judgement on it.

 

I vote: NO for your petition.

[Drockter]

Sorry OP, I support the change. That which brings balance, or sets up for future balancing is good IMO.

 

I will have virtually NO changes... I run essentially a pure healer build (sage... I do have some points in other trees, but not many). From what I have heard, the reason why I had to use those points in other trees have been addressed in the new discipline system.

 

+1 for the Discipline system. (I reserve the right to change my mind based on, you know, real details surrounding the classes I play. )

[PlagaNerezza]

I do not believe this new system will improve the gameplay at all. It will just confuse the long time players and ruin almost every single build we currently have. While Bioware may think this is great b/c everyone will be starting over like its a new game... however it will not be great. Disciplines' will kill this game. Please post below if you are opposed to the new Disciplines system. If you like the system, that's your opinion and you are welcome to it. This post is to show Bioware that we do not want this "improvement"! This thread is not to debate whether or not the Disciplines system will be effective.

 

I refuse to purchase the expansion until the Discipline system is removed.

 

It is necessary with a new 5 levels to redo the system. It takes to long to balance the classes. This will allow them to throw out more expansions and content. I run a hybrid deception spec for pvp. So I am hoping that I can somehow take deathfield like I do today. Some trees like deception continue to have really poor top end skills. Hopefully 3.0 fixes this so I need to have the top skill. My DPS rotation does not need the skill. I view full deception as inferior burst build. Without deathfield you lack ranged attacks and we have an inferior closer. The proc on voltaic is easy enough to counter with more shocks and more stealthing.

[Max_Killjoy]

It is necessary with a new 5 levels to redo the system. It takes to long to balance the classes. This will allow them to throw out more expansions and content. I run a hybrid deception spec for pvp. So I am hoping that I can somehow take deathfield like I do today. Some trees like deception continue to have really poor top end skills. Hopefully 3.0 fixes this so I need to have the top skill. My DPS rotation does not need the skill. I view full deception as inferior burst build. Without deathfield you lack ranged attacks and we have an inferior closer. The proc on voltaic is easy enough to counter with more shocks and more stealthing.

 

The new system forces you to take the top-end skill of the current tree, and gives it to you earlier, whether you like it or not. Half the reason some people created blended builds was because they weren't impressed with the current upper-tree abilities.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[OddballEasyEight]

I do not believe this new system will improve the gameplay at all. It will just confuse the long time players and ruin almost every single build we currently have. While Bioware may think this is great b/c everyone will be starting over like its a new game... however it will not be great. Disciplines' will kill this game. Please post below if you are opposed to the new Disciplines system. If you like the system, that's your opinion and you are welcome to it. This post is to show Bioware that we do not want this "improvement"! This thread is not to debate whether or not the Disciplines system will be effective.

 

I refuse to purchase the expansion until the Discipline system is removed.

 

You do realize that it will basically BE every single build we have right now, right?

Unless it's a hybrid (and only PvP'ers care about those) then you always have most of the same choices in the skill trees.

The only differences between most builds are minor details.

 

Oh and nobody cares that you refuse to buy the expansion because of childish reasons.

[Max_Killjoy]

Unless it's a hybrid (and only PvP'ers care about those)

 

I've never PvPed in SWTOR.

[Foambreaker]

...I refuse to purchase the expansion until the Discipline system is removed.

 

Stuff

 

Yours

 

Mine?

[LordArtemis]

Well, I think its pretty clear that this change does reduce some level of control over what skills you get to choose, much like requiring a certain amount of points in one tree before others unlock would have done.

 

I don't think the complaint that this game does not offer enough variety and options in how you can choose your characters role and abilities is an invalid one...quite the opposite.

 

But I don't think the solution to that is an effort to keep things as they are...it is pretty obvious that things, as they are, effect all players negatively directly or indirectly. Devs likely spend far too much time and resources attempting to balance the game for a very small minority of the playerbase, quite often to the detriment of the majority playerbase.

 

I will bet that many of the ability nerfs, animation trigger changes and constant requirement to respec after a change irritated more than one casual player. It was getting to be a bit ridiculous.

 

If this change helps to end that foolishness, then great. But really, the change that needs to happen to really benefit all players would be that there should be two rule sets.

 

THAT would be the only sure fire way to properly balance one side of the game without effecting the other. But naturally Bioware is fixated on the same old narrow minded design mistake with most MMOs....PVE and PVP skills must be the same.

 

After all...how many abilities in the PVE side of the game have been altered or nerfed because of GSF?

 

That is an example of what happens when you have two rule sets.

Edited October 15, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Max_Killjoy]

Well, I think its pretty clear that this change does reduce some level of control over what skills you get to choose, much like requiring a certain amount of points in one tree before others unlock would have done.

 

I don't think the complaint that this game does not offer enough variety and options in how you can choose your characters role and abilities is an invalid one...quite the opposite.

 

But I don't think the solution to that is an effort to keep things as they are...it is pretty obvious that things, as they are, effect all players negatively directly or indirectly. Devs likely spend far too much time and resources attempting to balance the game for a very small minority of the playerbase, quite often to the detriment of the majority playerbase.

 

I will bet that many of the ability nerfs, animation trigger changes and constant requirement to respec after a change irritated more than one casual player. It was getting to be a bit ridiculous.

 

If this change helps to end that foolishness, then great. But really, the change that needs to happen to really benefit all players would be that there should be two rule sets.

 

THAT would be the only sure fire way to properly balance one side of the game without effecting the other. But naturally Bioware is fixated on the same old narrow minded design mistake with most MMOs....PVE and PVP skills must be the same.

 

After all...how many abilities in the PVE side of the game have been altered or nerfed because of GSF?

 

That is an example of what happens when you have two rule sets.

 

I'd love to see some sort of solution that keeps PvP from affecting PvE, especially given that so many of those constant aggravating changes you list come from PvP. "balance" concerns.

[TUXs]

Unless it's a hybrid (and only PvP'ers care about those) then you always have most of the same choices in the skill trees.

 

Read the post directly above yours...and you'll realize how absolutely wrong you are. This is for PvE more than PvP.

Edited October 15, 2014 by TUXs

[Cyberwoman]

I will wait until I actually experience the new Discipline system myself until I make a decision on its quality. From what I have seen and heard, and I am actually quite interested in it and what it may offer. As I said though, I will just wait and see...

[SebastiaanZ]

I do not believe this new system will improve the gameplay at all. It will just confuse the long time players and ruin almost every single build we currently have. While Bioware may think this is great b/c everyone will be starting over like its a new game... however it will not be great. Disciplines' will kill this game. Please post below if you are opposed to the new Disciplines system. If you like the system, that's your opinion and you are welcome to it. This post is to show Bioware that we do not want this "improvement"! This thread is not to debate whether or not the Disciplines system will be effective.

 

I refuse to purchase the expansion until the Discipline system is removed.

 

And OP, you actually think they actually give a single **** about you not purchasing the expac? LOL x10000000

 

Or that a petition will change their mind? LOL x10000000

 

The OP must be trolling us.

 

/NOTSIGNED

[Zoom_VI]

You do realize that it will basically BE every single build we have right now, right?

Unless it's a hybrid (and only PvP'ers care about those) then you always have most of the same choices in the skill trees.

The only differences between most builds are minor details.

 

Oh and nobody cares that you refuse to buy the expansion because of childish reasons.

 

1) hybrids affect both PvP and PvE, PvP just gets hit harder because they screw with the ranked matchmaker.

2) Hybrids or even endgame are not the end all be all reason for the move to disciplines.

 

Skill trees are based on the principal that you get more points as you go and unlock more of your rotation as you move up the tree. Because of this much of the core rotation and utilities are about midway up the tree, both to give a sense of progression for leveling and so that hybrids cannot pick up the core of multiple trees.

 

SWTOR's trees are designed around the first ten levels mainly being fluff, getting the first ability at 20, and not getting anything resembling a rotation until somewhere between 30 and 35.

 

If they wanted to increase to 60 and keep the trees they would have to insert another row into the skill trees. The new row would have to be inserted below the current 5th row as to keep the core rotation skills out of reach of hybrids. In doing so, the leveling experience would take a hit because then classes wouldn't be seeing a rotation till post 35.

 

the only way they could keep this system without moving core skills higher into the trees would be introduce locking systems, either by requiring a tree to be filled before allowing specking into other trees, or by introducing stances to every class and locking all major skills and talents to those stances.

The former option would give less option than the discipline system since it would lock you into both the tree and the utility skills. The second option has a host of issues stemming from the fact that most classes where not designed with stances in mind and would require overhaul.

 

 

The discipline system on the other hand allows core parts of the rotation to be added much lower in a characters progression, allowing players to truly get the sense of their spec much earlier, and making the leveling process much more smooth.

Additionally it allows the unbinding of the utility skills, giving endgame players the option to customize their utility to match the boss fight or the PvP meta. Additionally since the trees themselves are locked the system will not require overhaul for level cap increases in the future.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[xZarquon]

I do not believe this new system will improve the gameplay at all. It will just confuse the long time players and ruin almost every single build we currently have. While Bioware may think this is great b/c everyone will be starting over like its a new game... however it will not be great. Disciplines' will kill this game.

 

I honestly don't understand this mentality, or even where you got this information. We have information thus far on 3 specs, for 1 class. Assuming people playing full trees (as yes, hybrids are being removed but that hardly makes it a new game) a lightning sorcerer now relies around:

 

1) casting thundering blast as often as possible (on targets with affliction)

2) Using Chain Lightning Procs

3) using force lightning with lightning barrage procs

4) using crushing darkness

5) casting lightning strike (possibly shock for movement)

 

With the new disciple system you keep all automatic procs (forked darkness and forked lightning) and the only things changing are: lightning barrage is being removed, lightning bolt replaces lightning strike, and you have a new skill (lightning flash) to be used on cooldown. On top of that, you get a couple fancy new bells and whistles such as instant lightning strike/bolt on proc, increased targets for chain lightning, thundering blast while moving (if you so choose), affliction will automatically get refreshed, a bloodthirst-like ability, and a big increase to force storm for AoE-heavy situations.

 

As for madness, with the disciple system, you still will

1) keep your dots up and not clip them

2) cast crushing darkness (or now devour) only with wrath (unless pre-casting)

3) use death field on cooldown (damage + deathmark)

4) use lightning strike with wrath when crushing darkness/devour is on cooldown

5) force lightning spam

 

Again, the spec stays essentially the same as it is now. You gain lightning barrage (which changes nothing, but adds a nice boost to your force lightning every 10 seconds), a life-leech skill, devour as a replacement for crushing darkness, increased targets for death field, automatic dot refresh and/or spread (honestly i'm not totally clear what pestilence does), a bloodthirst-like ability, a deacreased force cost on wrath-cast abilities (though less bonus dmg).

 

As you can see with the above comparisons, although there are some minor changes (as there were when 2.0 was released, and as there will be when any major expansion is released), the general playstyle of the specs that we have information for remains virtually unchanged. People will not be starting over, and with the exception of unnecessary hybrids, little will really change.

[Jadescythe]

I'd love to see some sort of solution that keeps PvP from affecting PvE, especially given that so many of those constant aggravating changes you list come from PvP. "balance" concerns.

 

I won't blame PvE, but it certainly contributes it's fair share of balance changes. The entirety of the time that Rage/Focus had to be rebalanced for PvP was entirely due to changes the devs made to improve it's capabilities in PvE. No one complained about it pre buffs in 1.3 or 1.4 from a PvP perspective. Then it had to be balanced every patch for the next year for PvP reasons because of one buff for PvE, when it was never a problem in PvP to begin with.

[Dras_Keto]

Its not an improvement, but its also not as bad as it looks, either. You see we were already at a point where specs were basically set in stone. You did X, then Y, then Z. There were a few situations where doing something non-standard yielded better results (DoTsmash, for instance) but then that just became the new standard until they removed it.

 

Unfortunately, its going to be basically the same situation with Disciplines. Youll need various Utilities based on what youre doing, anything less will be suboptimal.

 

Ultimately, all this will do is reduce the number of clicks we have to do when respeccing from 46 to 7.

[DarthDymond]

You see we were already at a point where specs were basically set in stone. You did X, then Y, then Z. There were a few situations where doing something non-standard yielded better results[...].

 

[...]anything less will be suboptimal.

I'm not looking forward to Disciplines, but I'm not terribly upset about them either, but one thing I will say is this (not picking on you Dras, the quote was just handy for my point):

 

It would be nice to get some acknowledgement that some players aren't concerned with how effective a build is - they play a certain skill set (including hybrids) because it is a setup that is fun for them. Maybe they think Death Field and Chain Lightning both just look really neat and they enjoy playing a build that includes both. This is a game, after all, and different players find enjoyment in it from different things - not all of which hinge on how min/maxed they are.

 

I'm not saying Disciplines should be scrapped just because such players exist, at the end of the day this very well could be better for the game as a whole (I'm sure a heavy majority of players do only use the 'effective' builds), I'm just saying there was a tradeoff that happened here and a certain number of players did get the short end of the stick in that exchange. Some appreciation of both sides in that tradeoff would be nice.

Edited October 15, 2014 by DarthDymond

[thebvp]

Dudes, quit crying.

 

It's not like most classes ever had any meaningful choice to begin with. With my PT, the only real difference I have between my pvp and pve spec are all of two talents, and as far as variability between PvE specs, there is none, because if you're not using the best dps spec available already, you're doing something wrong. As far as MMOs go, there is very, very little choice where your talents go in this game for most classes. So quit whining that they're taking something away that was never there to begin with.

 

But sometimes it does make a difference for say, he hybrid Assassin tank spec, which is ridiculously overpowered over other classes for certain fights like, say, NM Bestia. This is clearly not intended, grossly unfair to other tanks, and impossible to balance.

 

Quit being selfish. The sky isn't going to fall. It'll all work out in the end. Kill stuff and have fun.

[Foambreaker]

This thread is a testament to how desperately mediocre PvPers will fight to hold onto any perceived or real advantage

 

If you are that good, you will still be that good.

[Rafaman]

So much for your petition OP.

 

Do or do not; there are no hybrids.

[PlagaNerezza]

I honestly don't understand this mentality, or even where you got this information. We have information thus far on 3 specs, for 1 class. Assuming people playing full trees (as yes, hybrids are being removed but that hardly makes it a new game) a lightning sorcerer now relies around:

 

You don't piece mail information on changes of this scale to the public. That is just poor communication. The communication team should know this sort of closed door spoon-fed information is bad for moral and support from the community. You get a bunch of people fired up and anxious.