No more SKILL TREES is crazy

[Levram]

I always take the "Increase force by 50" or "Aim +9%" options but very rarely waste points on something that will raise crit chance or healing or endurance 1-2%.

 

It would also suck if somewhere in your Discipline tree there's a talent that completely kills your spec's rotation for you. Like a certain talent that makes a certain cast-time ability instant, when the biggest reason you play that spec (a spec traditionally based on casting) is to cast that ability.

 

While I conceptually understand players being disappointed that Disciplines will prevent them from being able to play a hybrid spec that they enjoy, the above two reasons for being worried about Disciplines are confusing to me.

 

Every Class and spec (even Tanks to hold aggro and help to kill things faster) is improved by taking a straight Critical chance boost from their skill tree. Any Healer not taking a percentage healing boost from their skill tree is also, unequivocally healing less than they could be. Unless that Healer is playing a DPS/Healer hybrid and needs points to reach DPS skills in another tree, they are not being as effective in healing as they could be by skipping percentage healing boost skills.

 

As for having your gameplay experience ruined by a skill that makes a casted ability into an instant ability, that could only relate to some type of roleplay need. There are no specs in this game that are traditionally based on anything. The skill trees have dynamically evolved over time as abilities and procs have been adjusted by the Developers. If your gameplay experience requires the maximum number of casted abilities, then you are not concerned over ideal ability rotations and maximum DPS or healing. Therefore, even after Disciplines have been implemented you will still be able to avoid instant abilities. Simply do not use them when they proc, let the proc fall off, then full-cast the ability, or use your abilities in the "incorrect" order to prevent the instant proc from even triggering.

[RiVaN_]

Everyone has their own opinion on this and each opinion is slightly different. Honestly it is all about speculation and what everyone THINKS it is going to be like. It is pointless to get bent out of shape over speculation and it accomplishes nothing.

Only the dev's and the folks on closed PTS know if it is any good or not and guess what NONE of them are allowed to talk about it publicly right now.

 

Speculation:

Possible advantages when they fix/balance pvp utilities it may not break the pve aspect of that class and/or Spec.

Possible pvp specific builds and versatility, so no more experimenting with hybrids that may or may not work. No more finding hybrid specs that force others to cry "OP, OP." Yeah the "Flavor of the Month" Specs will be diminished, but now you can mees with gear and utility combo's instead.

 

Opinion:

PvPers are ruining SWTOR PvE, so anything that makes it so the dev's stop breaking PvE to satisfy the vocal minority the better. SWTOR players say they don't want cookie cutter classes, but if you really listen to the PvP community that is EXACTLY what they want. They want "balance," they want everyone on equal footing so that player skill is the determining factor, not player gear. The only way to truly accomplish this is to make every class and spec exactly the same. Same stats, same damage per second for every ability, same defensive capabilities, the same everything. Honestly if you want balance PvP go play a First Person Shooter. I know you PvPers hear that alot and you hate it, but it is true. This game is designed to have different classes, different spec's and different stats depending on how you play and how you like your toon to preform. That game model doesn't play nice with balanced PvP, it just doesn't. You can't have the degree of customization that SWTOR provides and balance too. it is like saying I want a museum quality Rolls Royce Silver Ghost, but I want to drive it to work every day too, it doesn't work that way.

 

This change has the potential to be a good thing for both PvP and PvE, we just have to wait and see. December 2nd isn't that far away, have patience young padawans. We will see what happens when that day arrives.

Edited October 19, 2014 by RiVaN_

[Levram]

You obviously didn't read the rest of my post did you.

 

No, I read the whole thing three times before I posted to try to understand your point. You said the following:

• Your spec's rotation would be ruined for you if a certain casted ability was forced to be instant because of Disciplines as you choose to play that spec for that one casted ability.
  
• A potential solution you suggest is to leave the, now instant, ability out of your rotation, however, not using the ability would ruin Class balance, which is one of the main purposes of Disciplines.
  
• A solution you suggest to the Developers is a toggle option where the player could choose between the casted or instant version of an ability.

 

The illogical part of the above three points is that you are criticizing Disciplines for forcing you to either A) use an instant ability as the Developers intended or B) leave it out of your rotation which would result in sub-optimal DPS, whereas with skill trees you could avoid having the instant ability proc at all by choosing not to put any points in that talent. However, not choosing the instant ability proc in your skill tree would result in you having sub-optimal DPS, just as not using the instant ability at all would.

 

So how can you be upset that leaving the instant ability out of your rotation under Disciplines, or using one of the other two solutions I suggested, would result in you performing sub-optimally, when, if skill trees continued to exist, you would volunteer to perform sub-optimally anyway by not choosing to put any points in the instant proc option?

[Ryuku-sama]

No, I read the whole thing three times before I posted to try to understand your point. You said the following:

• Your spec's rotation would be ruined for you if a certain casted ability was forced to be instant because of Disciplines as you choose to play that spec for that one casted ability.
  
• A potential solution you suggest is to leave the, now instant, ability out of your rotation, however, not using the ability would ruin Class balance, which is one of the main purposes of Disciplines.
  
• A solution you suggest to the Developers is a toggle option where the player could choose between the casted or instant version of an ability.

 

The illogical part of the above three points is that you are criticizing Disciplines for forcing you to either A) use an instant ability as the Developers intended or B) leave it out of your rotation which would result in sub-optimal DPS, whereas with skill trees you could avoid having the instant ability proc at all by choosing not to put any points in that talent. However, not choosing the instant ability proc in your skill tree would result in you having sub-optimal DPS, just as not using the instant ability at all would.

 

So how can you be upset that leaving the instant ability out of your rotation under Disciplines, or using one of the other two solutions I suggested, would result in you performing sub-optimally, when, if skill trees continued to exist, you would volunteer to perform sub-optimally anyway by not choosing to put any points in the instant proc option?

 

Don,t spend time on him.... He just want to see Tracer Missile old animation back... And troll on everything if he can talk about it.... Obvious troll is obvious.

[Levram]

Don,t spend time on him.... He just want to see Tracer Missile old animation back... And troll on everything if he can talk about it.... Obvious troll is obvious.

 

Ah, I had no idea what ability you two were talking about since it wasn't stated in the original post I replied to.

 

I've never played a Mercenary or a Commando character, so I have no preference one way or the other regarding the animation.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Levram

[flyersfan]

Ill judge the system once I get more info on the Utility Skills. It could great or just end up like the skill tree before hand, where there is an optimal skill layout for a particular play type (dps, heal, tank).

 

This is what is probably going to happen. From what I got out of the blog post, the trees will be the same but with the bonuses that you don't have to adjust it every level and it's not so hard to change. There will always be an optimal build and MMO players will always use it and criticise those who don't use it.

[BarrinMarshall]

The only difference people will have are utility abilities.

 

Every class that picks a certain spec will have exactly the same abilities. If anything it will increase the amount of cookie cutter builds.

 

This man speaks the absolute truth

[Jandi]

WoW did the exact same thing and the sky didn't fall.

 

What it does do is make everyone viable regardless of what they choose. I was originally against it as well, but in the end it doesn't matter, those that know how to spec properly will continue the same and those that don't won't show up in a weird build that just doesn't work.

[azudelphi]

It won't increase the mount of cookie cutter builds because there will only be one build.

 

There will be 24 builds per faction (8 advanced classes per faction, 3 disciplines or builds per AC, then mirrored to the other), and an unknown number of ops / solo / pvp utility builds.

[Jimvinny]

It won't increase the mount of cookie cutter builds because there will only be one build.

 

One build for each discipline. Currently, only one build for each AC is optimal. With this change, both DPs trees for each AC will be viable, therefore increasing the number of builds.

[TUXs]

CRAZY BRILLIANT! Right?!

[DOHboy]

It won't increase the mount of cookie cutter builds because there will only be one build.

 

how so, my watchman sent will still be a watchman sent which will be different than a combat. Its just that within the watchman AC there will be different utilities that will help me be different than other watchman and still be viable. Where as currently there is one and only one build within watchman that is worth anything. Similar to combat. What they DID nerf were a few hybrids which are impossible to balance.

 

I am still having a hard time seeing the falling sky on this maybe I'm just not angry enough?

[Jimvinny]

I think the mistake people are making is thinking that they're removing choice. They're not, really. If you were choosing non cookie cutter build before, it was either because you were using an OP hybrid, which was unintended, or your build was suboptimal. They're taking away the ability to use OP hybrids, which is good for the health of the game, and they're also taking away the ability of casual players to spec poorly. Yes, they're taking away the cool solo hybrids some of you are very upset to be losing, but this change benefits a much larger portion of the game population than it harms. Really, we have more choice now. Because all 24 disciplines should be viable, where all 24 trees weren't before.

[TUXs]

I think the mistake people are making is thinking that they're removing choice. They're not, really. If you were choosing non cookie cutter build before, it was either because you were using an OP hybrid, which was unintended, or your build was suboptimal. They're taking away the ability to use OP hybrids, which is good for the health of the game, and they're also taking away the ability of casual players to spec poorly. Yes, they're taking away the cool solo hybrids some of you are very upset to be losing, but this change benefits a much larger portion of the game population than it harms. Really, we have more choice now. Because all 24 disciplines should be viable, where all 24 trees weren't before.

Well said! This is exactly why it's happening...unintended builds, good or bad.

[Jimvinny]

If anything, our choices in things that matter actually increases. Being able to get bubble stun on a full madness sorc, for example. That was never an option before, it will be now. Plenty of utility options that were limited to high in full spec trees will now be available to all disciplines.

[Drudenfusz]

I think the mistake people are making is thinking that they're removing choice. They're not, really. If you were choosing non cookie cutter build before, it was either because you were using an OP hybrid, which was unintended, or your build was suboptimal. They're taking away the ability to use OP hybrids, which is good for the health of the game, and they're also taking away the ability of casual players to spec poorly. Yes, they're taking away the cool solo hybrids some of you are very upset to be losing, but this change benefits a much larger portion of the game population than it harms. Really, we have more choice now. Because all 24 disciplines should be viable, where all 24 trees weren't before.

I agree. No, I would even go a step further and say, if BioWare gets the utilities right we could actualy get more choice out of the new system. Sure, it takes a little bit of the fun away to finding out what the most broken combination is one could build with a class (and that is important to many theory crafter), but the moment the best builds are clear, one has to build those anyway and the choices disappear for everybody until something gets changed on the game.

[thebvp]

If anything, our choices in things that matter actually increases. Being able to get bubble stun on a full madness sorc, for example. That was never an option before, it will be now. Plenty of utility options that were limited to high in full spec trees will now be available to all disciplines.

 

Exactly.

 

You're seriously kidding yourself if you think there is any real, meaningful choice with talent trees the way they currently are. With my PT, I have exactly one default PvE dps spec that you use for 90% of all encounters, one highly situational PvE dps spec, and one PvP spec, and the only difference between the first and the third are six talent points. PvE, especially, is so railroaded it's ridiculous. If you're not using the optimal dps spec that you can pick in your sleep, you're doing something wrong.

 

I, for one, look forward to the new system because at least now I'll be able to make six choices that affect my gameplay without gimping me instead of two.

[TUXs]

Exactly.

 

You're seriously kidding yourself if you think there is any real, meaningful choice with talent trees the way they currently are. With my PT, I have exactly one default PvE dps spec that you use for 90% of all encounters, one highly situational PvE dps spec, and one PvP spec, and the only difference between the first and the third are six talent points. PvE, especially, is so railroaded it's ridiculous. If you're not using the optimal dps spec that you can pick in your sleep, you're doing something wrong.

 

I, for one, look forward to the new system because at least now I'll be able to make six choices that affect my gameplay without gimping me instead of two.

Let me preface with - I agree with you!

 

However...I'm skeptical that there may be "more" builds...it'll still boil down to one best one for PvP and one for PvE I bet.

[Jimvinny]

That may be the case, but there will be utility skills that are great for certain fights, and useless in others. The hardcore players will alomst certainly be in a constant respeccing mode, but just think how much easier that will be!!

 

But more than anything, it will prevent casual or uneducated players from unintentionally gimping themselves and their team, at least to a point. The light up procs are also going to help the casuals with their rotations, so the quality of the average pug should increase as well.

[dragonez]

The whole idea to take away people's choice on how to build and level their characters is always stupid when it comes to RPGS and btw last two MMOs that had this kind of revamp had no success with it and one even shutdown eventually from this. If you want to talk about cookie cut builds well this revamp pretty much is a permanent cookie cut for everyone lol. People don't play RPGS because they want something casual or simple in fact they like being able to build and level their characters the way they want to and don't want their hands held during the whole process if that's what you want then your playing the wrong game and genre.

 

The whole idea of making RPGS more casual and simple never works in the MMOs favor its proven fact. Before you at least had the choice to build your character and builds they way you wanted and could build hybrids the way you pleased and weren't forced to choose any cookie cutter build if you didn't want to now you have no choice but to With this new revamp and they basically took all that away away forcing you to go down only the paths that they built for you. In fact the only choice you have is picking from a few untitles that really doesn't allow you to differ much the way you could in the past. Bottomline they did this to make their jobs easier when it comes to balancing and patches but they didn't have to and could have instead fixed things the right way with a little bit of extra work without taking away one of the better things and mechanics of RPGS that yes people who play RPGs expect to have in these type of games.

 

You would think they would look at past MMOs that have tried this and see how badly this kind of revamp and change fared for them in fact SWG pretty much went downhill after a revamp like this and WoW lost a lot of its subscribers after it decided to go casual with this kind of change and revamp as well. So why in the hell would they do the same given history? Honestly what's that old saying if it ain't broke don't fix it and the whole excuse from devs about this making their job easier and making it to where there able to do more in other areas of the MMO is a bunch of you know what way to ruin and possibly kill a great MMO. The things are going it can only become more casual and less of a true RPG, I bet next they will make the quickbars shorter and design the UI to fit and work on a controller lol. What a big shame.......

[ReverendAnderson]

The whole idea to take away people's choice on how to build and level their characters is always stupid when it comes to RPGS

 

They can't take away something you never actually had, and at least this way the choices we get to make are actually a little bit meaningful.

[Max_Killjoy]

^ "Choices I wouldn't choose aren't real choices."

[mmmbuddah]

Oh god, this nonsense. Look, they had to do something, because as the level cap rises, people will be sticking points into tank trees when they already have full dps trees, and dps putting points into healer trees, and eventually we would have a dps class with half a damned tank tree. Theway they are now is fine, except there needs to be some SEVERE balancing. I mean, they nerfed commandos even -more-.....if that was even possible.

[LordArtemis]

I don't think that is unreasonable to be concerned about what disciplines means for the game. There were many ways they could have gone IMO, and this was one of them to achieve their internal goals.

 

I do not take issue with the system itself, which in my opinion is not that much different than the prior system. My issue is with some of the more unnecessary changes made because they "didn't feel right" or "didn't match the role". Those kind of changes were foolish IMO, ignoring the appeal of those abilities for players that had had them since launch.

 

THAT is where my concerns reside. I think some of those changes need to be reversed.

 

My second concern is with structure. I think that some of the more useless abilities for casuals are forced into the normal progression tree instead of being in utilities where they belong, options that increase DPS/Mitigation, etc. They are superfluous options that mean little to casual players and belong in utilities IMO.

 

They should have only abilities, or direct adjustments to abilities that aid casual play in the main tree, and everything else in utilities. Forcing group or PVP options on to casuals players was a mistake IMO.

 

But overall I feel, with some work, the current system has potential and merit. But it does need quite a bit of work.

[Tune]

I don't think that is unreasonable to be concerned about what disciplines means for the game. There were many ways they could have gone IMO, and this was one of them to achieve their internal goals.

 

Hey Lord, its me again (like if i havent talked enough about disciplines in my old thread)

 

When you talk about BW goals, i already mentioned that their main goal was to decrease their work, creating something more simple for them to spend less hours working on it.

I would be (more) ok with it, if we had actualy seen more content in the expansion...

 

Now, when talking about Disciplines, we need to decide if we dont like the system by it selfe, how it works, the utility options for our class, and how it decreases the number of times you have to click K, instead of every level, OR if we "just" dont like the specific changes to our class and specs. (or both?)

 

I dont need to say that i dont like the system, you know that very well, and also dont need to say that i dont consider 90% of the utilities to be meaningful, like they were advertised, you know that too, right?

 

So, let me just say some things about my main char class, the JK Guardian (jugger).

 

From the 4 spec abilities for Vigilance spec, they chosed Plasma Brand as the first to give us at lvl10, followed by Overhead Slash, and then Shien Form. Well, this is the exctly oposed to the way it was before, and i think it was right, and now is wrong.

And let me explain why: Plasma Brand is a instant cast ability, with 12sec cd (if i'm not mistaken), that does 40% of the total dmg instant, and takes 12sec for the other 60%. Now tell me, why does a lvl10 char need an ability that takes 12sec to do the full dmg?

Imo, Shien Form is the most important ability for lower lvls, since it not only increases overall dmg, but also increases force regen, what ofc will allow you to do more dmg.

So, i'm not sure the reason why they completly changed the order we get those 3 abilities, did they think it was completly wrong before? Or they just wanted to change something to give players the ilusion they actualy worked on it? Or what then?

 

Another thing i dont understand, is the Ripost ability, that not procs plenty more times for vigilance spec, buttttttttttttt is no longer outside the gb cd... and this means its useless. So, why make it proc more if we dont need (or want) to use it, coz we got better (more dmg) abilities to use??? Where is the logic in this?

 

And for another class, the Powertech/Vanguard, dps spec Adv Proto new ability Termal Detonator, has pretty much the same design of electro dart, (without the aoe) and this means, we shoot and w8 3 sec for the dmg. Now, to have 1 ability that will take 3sec to do the dmg, is ok, electro dart isnt even the most important on dmg dealing, but now we got a second ability that also takes 3sec to do dmg? And this one is actualy very important.

For me, it ruined the spec, cant even play it. And i can only imagine in PvP, how many times you will die in those 3sec gap...

 

But not everything is bad, i do like my Consular (tk) alot more now, with good planned rotation it can get very mobile. I admit that i'm enjoing it more then before, even without the hybrid option. (see, i can say good things too )

 

I still havent tryed tank or healing specs, so i can only coment on those.