Conquest and Screwing PVPr's

[LordArtemis]

It's daily for the Tactical flashpoints but it's a one time thing now for the event flashpoint. Before, you could do the event flashpoint as a repeatable the same way that you can do pvp, but now you can only do it once for the entire duration of the conquest phase.

 

This needs to be changed back to how it was originally to give PVE players something to focus on.

 

Ah, so what if a PVE player is not involved in any conquest.....are they restricted from certain flashpoints then?

 

I didn't know that Tacticals were dailies, but that makes sense now that I think about it....the only way I found to do them was through group finder, and one expects those to be dailies.

[Avatarless]

I completely disagree.

 

New things to do is what is needed. A greater variety of different things to do is what is needed. Running the same thing 500 times in a row is ABSOLUTELY NOT what is needed.

 

I wish people would stop lobbying for this.

 

 

How is doing a FP over and over any different from doing pvp over and over?

[CloudzDeven]

I completely disagree.

 

New things to do is what is needed. A greater variety of different things to do is what is needed. Running the same thing 500 times in a row is ABSOLUTELY NOT what is needed.

 

I wish people would stop lobbying for this.

 

Agreed, but the answer isn't a week of PvP focused missions in order to introduce variety. No PvPer wants a bunch of PvE options and no PvP and vice versa. The only realistic options is either a bunch of both(which would be great), but non-repeatable or a little of everything, but made repeatable. I can't really imagine what possible types of conquest missions they haven't introduced. I'm sure they can change the locations, as far as types I can't think of anything we haven't already seen.

[Khevar]

How is doing a FP over and over any different from doing pvp over and over?

You realize you can run FPs over and over all day long right now?

 

In fact, with a level 55 toon you could run Battle of Ilum story mode, skipping half the instance, and finish it in about 10-12 minutes. Completely solo.

 

Why aren't you doing it? The entrance is right on Ilum, at the bottom of the elevator. You don't need a group finder pop. You don't need to wait. There's no lockouts. You could have easily run it 80 times this past weekend.

 

I mean, this is what you're asking for, right? That's what was changed with the 2.9c patch.

 

Could it be that the reason you're NOT doing this is that it ISN'T FUN?

 

:eek::eek:

 

I'll reiterate my earlier point. What is needed is a greater variety of things to do. And ideally, new things to do. There's nothing wrong with doing PvE all day. But why do you want it to be the SAME THING over and over? Expand your horizons, neighbor.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Khevar

[CloudzDeven]

Are you sure you don't mean last week? This week's FP was only Manda Raiders I think. They do need to improve the system to make you need to kill all the bosses(excluding bonus) and not just final, but I feel like making them non-repeatable now was an extreme in another direction. The reason I didn't do any of the flashpoints like that is because I enjoy doing most of the flashpoints...and I don't have a stealth class.

 

You say greater variety, but what could they introduce that they haven't already? They got kill x amount of mobs, kill x boss, complete x flashpoint, complete x daily/weekly, etc. I don't mind doing new things, but only if it's PvE. Both playstyles should be equally viable, it's always lopsided to either too much pve or too much pvp.

Edited September 15, 2014 by CloudzDeven

[Avatarless]

You realize you can run FPs over and over all day long right now?

 

In fact, with a level 55 toon you could run Battle of Ilum story mode, skipping half the instance, and finish it in about 10-12 minutes. Completely solo.

 

Why aren't you doing it? The entrance is right on Ilum, at the bottom of the elevator. You don't need a group finder pop. You don't need to wait. There's no lockouts. You could have easily run it 80 times this past weekend.

 

I mean, this is what you're asking for, right? That's what was changed with the 2.9c patch.

 

Could it be that the reason you're NOT doing this is that it ISN'T FUN?

 

:eek::eek:

 

I'll reiterate my earlier point. What is needed is a greater variety of things to do. And ideally, new things to do. There's nothing wrong with doing PvE all day. But why do you want it to be the SAME THING over and over? Expand your horizons, neighbor.

 

I DO run the same FP over and over for fun and to farm some cash. The point of this thread is CONQUEST.

 

You get nothing in terms of conquest for running those FP over and over, you do if you run PVP over and over though.

 

Why is PVE not getting the same benefit?

[Khevar]

I DO run the same FP over and over for fun and to farm some cash. The point of this thread is CONQUEST.

Interesting.

 

There are some players (of which it seems like you are one) that do not mind a monotonous grind of the exact same thing ad infinitum. When then Clash in Hyperspace Conquest started, those players happily ran the repeatable flashpoints on repeat, a group of 4 making 1k-2k points per minute, even without exploiting the "invite 3 alts at the end of the run"

 

Until the 2.9c patch, that particular week was all about re-running the same flashpoints. Anyone that didn't have your special brand of tolerance of infinitely monotony would have to bow out of the race.

 

Unfortunately, the changes BW wrought thus far has not, in fact, balanced Conquests. There is more work needed to do this. On the one hand, we have you asking for more infinite repeat of the same thing. On the other hand, we have me asking for a greater variety of things to do.

 

I sincerely hope you don't get what you want.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Khevar

[DawnAskham]

Interesting.

 

There are some players (of which it seems like you are one) that do not mind a monotonous grind of the exact same thing ad infinitum. When then Clash in Hyperspace Conquest started, those players happily ran the repeatable flashpoints on repeat, a group of 4 making 1k-2k points per minute, even without exploiting the "invite 3 alts at the end of the run"

 

Until the 2.9c patch, that particular week was all about re-running the same flashpoints. Anyone that didn't have your special brand of tolerance of infinitely monotony would have to bow out of the race.

 

Unfortunately, the changes BW wrought thus far has not, in fact, balanced Conquests. There is more work needed to do this. On the one hand, we have you asking for more infinite repeat of the same thing. On the other hand, we have me asking for a greater variety of things to do.

 

I sincerely hope you don't get what you want.

 

Why can't we have both?

 

More diverse options to earn points, but also more repeatable options (at least per character).

 

Look at next week, some of the basics are included (run the daily FP, PVP matches) but also the four level 55 Operations along with the weekly for Section X and Oricon.

 

Note than none of the dailies for Section X, Oricon, or the Heroics on the other planets (Hoth) have conquest objectives, even for low points.

 

Since Operation objectives have thus far been non-repeatable at the legacy level, players are going to have to juggle which character runs which operation when during the week to try and get the points on the right character while not having the ability to gain points running the Operation again on different character.

 

The same thing will happen the week after next with the Flashpoint heavy objectives, with very little other objectives other than the normal daily GF and repeatable WZs.

 

Locking the points to once per legacy is absurd and at a minimum, should be once per character per Conquest.

 

I'd like to see more options for earning points, say next week including points for doing the Section X and Oricon dailies and Hoth heroics, with tuning on points awarded to ensure effort / points ratio for different activities is reasonably close.

 

I'd also like to objectives like running an FP through the GF or completing an Operation be repeatable across all my characters, only subject to limits such as Operation lock-outs and using the GF so the instances are level appropriate.

 

But alas, I'm afraid we won't ever have objectives that are once per character due to them tying conquest objectives without existing missions into the legacy achievement tracking system, which doesn't have the ability to track at the character level.

 

As for adding more diverse objectives though, that shouldn't have technical limitations and should be done as soon as possible.

Edited September 15, 2014 by DawnAskham

[Khevar]

Why can't we have both?

 

More diverse options to earn points, but also more repeatable options (at least per character).

I agree, I think the "once per legacy" targets should be changed to "one per character" targets.

 

But that's not what Avatarless is asking for:

This needs to be changed back to how it was originally to give PVE players something to focus on.

How is doing a FP over and over any different from doing pvp over and over?

I DO run the same FP over and over for fun and to farm some cash. The point of this thread is CONQUEST.

I will continue to argue against this particular idea.

[Grayseven]

How is doing a FP over and over any different from doing pvp over and over?

 

Because there are a bunch of things to do, PvE wise, to gain conquest points while there are fewer to do through PvP.

 

Case in point. I played lowbie PvP over two days on one toon and got 45k points. Total PvP time was over 10 hours. In the same amount of time, through all of the PvE related stuff I got 7 other characters to at least 35k and in some cases well over 50k points. And yes, crafting is PvE.

 

You can't run FP over and over because it would skew the system. Notice that there weren't many 8 digit point totals this week? That's because people can't farm FP's any more. In fact on the Shadowlands group the highest point total is around 9.4 million. last week it was over 18 million and that was only with a partial week of unlimited FP's. Most of that was crafting I'm sure.

[LordArtemis]

Interesting.

 

There are some players (of which it seems like you are one) that do not mind a monotonous grind of the exact same thing ad infinitum. When then Clash in Hyperspace Conquest started, those players happily ran the repeatable flashpoints on repeat, a group of 4 making 1k-2k points per minute, even without exploiting the "invite 3 alts at the end of the run"

 

Until the 2.9c patch, that particular week was all about re-running the same flashpoints. Anyone that didn't have your special brand of tolerance of infinitely monotony would have to bow out of the race.

 

Unfortunately, the changes BW wrought thus far has not, in fact, balanced Conquests. There is more work needed to do this. On the one hand, we have you asking for more infinite repeat of the same thing. On the other hand, we have me asking for a greater variety of things to do.

 

I sincerely hope you don't get what you want.

 

There are a few reasons to run flashpoints more than once. Farming mats for instance....in some cases the only place to get certain grades of mats in reasonable quantity is in flashpoints.

 

Also farming dark or light points. It is almost impossible to build dark or light points outside of diplomacy once you finish your class story.

 

Now, losing the ability to do either would not be a huge blow, but I feel that throwing out the bath with the bathwater is not the way to go. The ability to repeat flashpoints to benefit Conquest goals is probably not a good thing and was rightly changed IMO.

 

However, if this limits the average joe that has no interest in conquest from running a flashpoint more than once that is outside groupfinder I think that is a bad thing.

[Trevor_the_Bruce]

People complain that they keep ending up with the same people in matches over and over. So BW does something that gives an incentive for more people to PVP. People complain about the new people that are in matches.....

 

I swear the game could spit out $100 bills and people would complain that they were not in sequential order. If they were in order, people would not complain that the bills were not random enough.

 

+1. I totally agree.

[Oyranos]

its not only pvp that is screwed... its also pve.

 

Few days ago, I joined via GF a group of pvpers who tried to do an HM flashpoint. All of them 24-26k hp with pvp cloths and me as a healer 38k...

 

We wiped several times and I also did damage, plus tanking, be able to complete the HM flashpoint.

 

I didnt abandon them, as I was the second healer who joined their group... It was an in progress fp.

 

we did it, but it was a pain in the a#$#

 

I support the idea of 1 type of armor for both, pvp and pve (they could just give more styles in the clothing and more crafting)... The newer mmos adopt that idea and its better. 2 kind of armors does not work... it splits the game in half.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Oyranos

[LanceCorporalDan]

People complain that they keep ending up with the same people in matches over and over. So BW does something that gives an incentive for more people to PVP. People complain about the new people that are in matches.....

 

I swear the game could spit out $100 bills and people would complain that they were not in sequential order. If they were in order, people would not complain that the bills were not random enough.

 

People queueing is different than people playing. There isn't incentive to pvp. There is incentive to sit in the wz and just get your points. If it were more based on medals and actually PvP'ing then that would be different. This however is not the case...

[LordArtemis]

For PVP, I support the idea of "no armor" PVP, where everyone gets base stats, no pots, no buffs, and your performance is based entirely on skill.

 

You could improve your output/mitigation by rising in the ranks. But the difference would not be substantial...it would give you a slight edge.

 

Right now, IMO, this game holds your hand too much in PVP.

[Khevar]

Now, losing the ability to do either would not be a huge blow, but I feel that throwing out the bath with the bathwater is not the way to go.

Don't get me wrong, I have no desire to add lockouts to flashpoints or anything.

 

I realize that there are players that may want to run these over and over, and it doesn't bother or affect me in the slightest if they do so.

 

In other words, the current system for flashpoints in game is fine: Group Finder rewards are a "once per day per toon" for 55, 50, and tacs. But you can still queue again as many times as you want (or you can form a group directly, or you can solo if desired) for loot drops, decorations, experience, etc.

 

There is no reason to change it. It's all good.

The ability to repeat flashpoints to benefit Conquest goals is probably not a good thing and was rightly changed IMO.

Yeah, this is the main thing I'm arguing about. I believe the 2.9c change was a step in the right direction.

 

That said, I don't feel that the current conquest objectives are balanced. I do know they need more work. I just disagree with the idea that the solution is to revert the 2.9c change.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Khevar

[Oneirophrenia]

Few days ago, I joined via GF a group of pvpers who tried to do an HM flashpoint. All of them 24-26k hp with pvp cloths and me as a healer 38k...

 

Hmm, I'm not sure how that's possible since just a full set of Obroan gear should give a player somewhere around 30k hp. Fully augmented (as any serious PVPer would do), their hp should easily eclipse 32k. Tanking gear would obviously be even higher than that, to the north of 35-36k.

 

I play both PVE and PVP so I can pretty much say that for 55 HM FPs, a full set of Obroan or Brutalizer is good enough. Not ideal, but enough to get it done without too much difficulty. I think you just came across a group of baddies TBH. That or they were just purposely trolling.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Oneirophrenia

[Avatarless]

I'm sure we would all like to see a wider variety of activities but it's not going to be implemented anytime soon given the amount of work that has already gone into the conquest system.

 

Another thing about allowing repeatable FPs is that it is an incentive to subscribe, since there is no lockout on the amount of times you can run them as a subscriber. Now that they are a one time thing, you can stay as preferred status.

[Aries_cz]

People queueing is different than people playing. There isn't incentive to pvp. There is incentive to sit in the wz and just get your points. If it were more based on medals and actually PvP'ing then that would be different. This however is not the case...

 

I might actually agree to this. Award the "complete WZ" reward for grabbing certain amount of medals, maybe full 8 (which is not that difficult if you actually try), or 6, for those cases when you just get an unbalanced teams, but it still requires a bit of effort

Edited September 15, 2014 by Aries_cz

[Aries_cz]

I'm sure we would all like to see a wider variety of activities but it's not going to be implemented anytime soon given the amount of work that has already gone into the conquest system.

 

To be honest, each conquest event provides incentives to do certain type of content in addition to PvE (which will always be there, as it is something everybody can do).

• Balance of Power was pretty much mix of everything
  
• Clash in Hyperspace was mainly about GSF
  
• Trade Emporium was mainly about crafting
  
• Death Mark was mainly about PvP
  

Edited September 15, 2014 by Aries_cz

[TUXs]

People queueing is different than people playing. There isn't incentive to pvp. There is incentive to sit in the wz and just get your points. If it were more based on medals and actually PvP'ing then that would be different. This however is not the case...

Exactly right!!!

 

It should be 250 (or even just 200) to join, 25-50 per medal and 250 for a win. That rewards participating as well!

[Zoom_VI]

its not only pvp that is screwed... its also pve.

 

Few days ago, I joined via GF a group of pvpers who tried to do an HM flashpoint. All of them 24-26k hp with pvp cloths and me as a healer 38k...

 

We wiped several times and I also did damage, plus tanking, be able to complete the HM flashpoint.

 

I didnt abandon them, as I was the second healer who joined their group... It was an in progress fp.

 

Wat, PvP gear is 30k without augments, 32-33k with. 42k for tanks, assuming they are PvP optimized.

 

The one thing that pisses me off the most on the forums is people who think that PvP isn't good enough for basic PvE content. Brutalizer gear is better than the gear that drops from Hardmode flashpoints, brutalizer gear also has the same PvE stat budget as Arkanian gear, you can clear every single SM op in the game with a raid group entirely in PvP gear. Hell I cleared HM Palace on my VG in PvP gear, there is no call to be complaining about people being in PvP gear in HM flashpoints.

[CloudzDeven]

Wat, PvP gear is 30k without augments, 32-33k with. 42k for tanks, assuming they are PvP optimized.

 

The one thing that pisses me off the most on the forums is people who think that PvP isn't good enough for basic PvE content. Brutalizer gear is better than the gear that drops from Hardmode flashpoints, brutalizer gear also has the same PvE stat budget as Arkanian gear, you can clear every single SM op in the game with a raid group entirely in PvP gear. Hell I cleared HM Palace on my VG in PvP gear, there is no call to be complaining about people being in PvP gear in HM flashpoints.

 

I don't know the stats off the top of my head, but isn't Brutalizer 162? IIRC you lost 10% of your main stat and 20% of your secondary in exchange for expertise. I'm totally not a pvp person though so I could be wrong. That being said if you cleared HM Palace in PvP gear I'm guessing your team carried you a bit with their higher rated pve gear.

[Zoom_VI]

I don't know the stats off the top of my head, but isn't Brutalizer 162? IIRC you lost 10% of your main stat and 20% of your secondary in exchange for expertise. I'm totally not a pvp person though so I could be wrong. That being said if you cleared HM Palace in PvP gear I'm guessing your team carried you a bit with their higher rated pve gear.

 

Nope, expertise is not deducted from the stat budget, been like that since 2.0. Brutalizer is effectively Arkanian gear with a different setbonus.

 

 

That being said if you cleared HM Palace in PvP gear I'm guessing your team carried you a bit with their higher rated pve gear.

Well duh, but it was a alt run anyway, and I maintanked HM S&V back in 2.3 with just Conqueror gear, albeit Thrasher was a pain in the rear, I've done at some point or another all PvE content with the exception of NiM in PvP gear.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[CloudzDeven]

Nope, expertise is not I've done at some point or another all PvE content with the exception of NiM in PvP gear.

 

That's no different than someone in 162 PvE gear getting carried through a NiM run(there are guilds that do those for a fee) and saying "you can do NiM Palace in 162 gear". I'm not saying you weren't a credit to your team, but really all that means is that your team's gear made up for yours, not that you can do a HM op in PvP gear. I doubt a full team of Brut would be able to do HM Palace. Good to know about the stat budget thing though, thanks.. This is all entirely off topic though.

Edited September 15, 2014 by CloudzDeven