Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Fist of the Empire vs the Confederacy

[Beniboybling]

Firstly, not even sure that the Trading cards are cannon.

 

Second, that's GE era, and not even the good kind because that's the agency pre-BBY.

 

Then of course the fact that an information network isn't an intel agency, they don't have the infiltrators etc that they need, an information network is just gathering info off people who will talk...

Well no offense but I regard as a more genuine source than your opinion.

 

GE, Galactic Empire? I'm really not sure what you mean, Imperial Intelligence were bad@ss 95% of the time...

 

Never said it was, but deception is countered by information, not infiltration. For example lets say Agent 9 comes in pretending to be Big Bad Baba, the Black Sun will know Big Bad Baba is out of town so you can't be him.

[Selenial]

Well no offense but I regard as a more genuine source than your opinion.

 

GE, Galactic Empire? I'm really not sure what you mean, Imperial Intelligence were bad@ss 95% of the time...

 

Never said it was, but deception is countered by information, not infiltration. For example lets say Agent 9 comes in pretending to be Big Bad Baba, the Black Sun will know Big Bad Baba is out of town so you can't be him.

 

My opinion has not come into that quote at all, my opinion is that the SE is infinitely better than the GE's Intelligence service, (Which it is) and that if that quote is non canon, we should not be using it. At all.

 

Unless you mean to say that Ventress secretly becoming the apprentice of Darth Sidious, and that my fanfic about Dooku secretly being Abeloth (yes, I'm joking, I didn't write that.) Is also up for being used here.... >.>

You get the point.

 

You would have thought that the Red Blade being the most famous pirate in the galaxy would have had the same issue, apparently not. Especially when the IA can track down said criminal and just kill him, use his ships and everything. When the Black Sun is calling for thousands of criminals to come help as you and Canino keep saying they would, it won't be hard for an agent to slip through the cracks.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Selenial

[Beniboybling]

I'm not sure there is really room to argue that Sith Intelligence is superior to Imperial Intelligence, maybe in terms of the quality of their agents, but in terms of information, analysis and quality of resources, its a autowin for the Imperials.

 

The Galactic Empire spanned the entire galaxy, had no opposition and possessed a vast amount of resources. In comparison to the GE, who can go anywhere they like and do anything they like the Sith Empire who have to hide in the shadows, don't even control much of the space they are infiltrating, and have to deal with the SIS on a regular basis. They have a of obstacles to overcome before they can attain information. None such barriers exist the Imperials. Half their information is probably handed to them on a platter, think that they could achieve when they actually try.

 

A lot, considering they have the backing of the most powerful and no doubt the most wealthy galactic government ever to exist, they have access to the latest technology, no expenses are spared, far less than Sith Intelligence for sure.

 

So again, while I see room to argue that Sith Intelligence has a more skilled and experienced infiltration arm, in terms of information, analysis and resources surely with the backing of the Galactic Empire, the Imperials are superior.

 

Which means Black Sun are superior to, being able to surpass Imperial Intelligence is an impressive feat. Lets not dismiss it out of favour towards Sith Intelligence, they are great yes but don't attempt to exaggerate their abilities.

[Beniboybling]

My opinion has not come into that quote at all, my opinion is that the SE is infinitely better than the GE's Intelligence service, (Which it is) and that if that quote is non canon, we should not be using it. At all.

 

Unless you mean to say that Ventress secretly becoming the apprentice of Darth Sidious, and that my fanfic about Dooku secretly being Abeloth (yes, I'm joking) Is also up for being used here.... >.>

You get the point.

 

You would have thought that the Red Blade being the most famous pirate in the galaxy would have had the same issue, apparently not. Especially when the IA can track down said criminal and just kill him, use his ships and everything. When the Black Sun is calling for thousands of criminals to come help as you and Canino keep saying they would, it won't be hard for an agent to slip through the cracks.

Sel, its canon. Unless you have proof otherwise. And Sith Intelligence has nothing to do with its credibility.

 

No I really don't, I really can't fathom on what grounds you are trying to dispute a source that has been documented in Wookieepedia as canon and on what grounds you can compare a SWG product to one of your fan fictions.

 

And infinitely better is a very bold claim, that I don't buy for a second. For that you'd not only need strong evidence of Sith Intelligence's superiority, but evidence of Imperial Intelligence's incompetency as well. We need to slow down, lets try and makes comparisons fairly and impartially without the hyperbole before things get out of hand.

 

I don't understand, Nemro the Hutt did not have information networks surpassing that of Imperial Intelligence, you would think that if Black Sun has that kind of power, they will know where people are in the underworld, what they look like etc.

 

For example, in that case Black Sun could probably have pulled up a dossier on the Red Blade and compared likeness, or maybe a source would tip them off informing that the Red Blade was in fact elsewhere. Lets say however that Imperial Intelligence killed the Red Blade, well the ripples created would no doubt be picked up by Black Sun.

 

They capitalized on ignorance, as if often if not always done when deceiving, that is not possible here, because the opponent is not ignorant. Going into details is pointless and they are circumstantial, but this remains always true.

 

P.S. I don't recall saying that, the rules don't even allow it.

[Beniboybling]

"New-found evidence suggests that Imperial Intelligence existed even before the Sith Empire founded it's capital city."

 

"Imperial Intelligence planted spy networks throughout every level of the Republic's government and military, centuries before the invasion."

 

"The hutt-licking Empire went a step further than planting spies, entire political dynasties and Republic navy admirals, even a Jedi High Council member turned out to be Imperial. For all we know, you might be." - Theron Shan

 

"The slaughter of the council on Dantooine was orchestrated by Imperial Intelligence, a Sith Inquisitor planted ten years earlier vanquished an integral Jedi academy in a dark ritual."

 

"Galactic events since the Mandalorian Wars were all part of a grand plan, instigated and designed by Imperial 'Keepers'."

 

"Despite the Intelligence Network being near flawless, the Dark Council demanded something more efficient and so inevitably they turned to their lone allies, the Chiss."

 

"Imperial Intelligence was not relegated to the use of agents in the field, Sith Assassins were used expertly to influence events for decades..."

 

Just some of the quotes I have found regarding Imperial Intelligence in works such as: SWTOR (Codex Entries), SWTOR: Encyclopedia, SWTOR: Annihilation, SWTOR: Threat of Peace, SWTOR: The Lost Suns and SWTOR: Fatal Alliance.

Not sure where those are from, but here is what I can gather:

Behind the Sith and the powerful Imperial military is the vast network of agents, information gatherers, deception specialists and strategists that makes up Imperial Intelligence. Part spy organization, part secret police, Imperial Intelligence handles all of the Empire’s covert operations–guarding the Empire’s secrets, acquiring valuable intel from the Republic, hunting down traitors and cleaning up messes created by unhinged Sith Lords. Imperial Intelligence reports to the Minister of Intelligence, who in turn reports directly to the Dark Council. Not a military organization, Imperial Intelligence officers are nonetheless viewed with respect by military and civilian personnel–it’s Intelligence that can judge a person as loyal or traitorous, arrange the advancement of a career or the blacklisting of a powerful leader. A place in Imperial Intelligence is a coveted rank, reserved for some of the best of the Empire’s non-Force sensitive subjects. In some cases, officers are “poached” by Sith Lords seeking to build their own specialized intelligence networks; for the most part, however, Intelligence personnel go unnoticed by anyone outside the organization. The best agents are the ones no one’s ever heard of.

 

--Taken from SWTOR Codex Entry

 

Imperial Intelligence is one of the most mysterious organisations in the Sith Empire. Information on its hierarchy, equipment, and mission profiles has slowly leaked out over the decades since the beginning of the Great War, but hard facts about the organisation's history or long-term plans are unavailable, and the vast majority of its agents have carried out their work completely undetected.

 

From what is known, it is clear that the function of Imperial Intelligence is to identify and undermine all threats to Imperial dominance. The organisation is very proactive in these pursuits, manipulating or destroying potential enemies long before they have the chance to act against the Empire. These efforts are not limited to external threats - Intelligence agents have been known to observe and eliminate "disruptive elements" within their own society just as often as they act against foreign powers.

 

...

 

The internal organisation of Imperial Intelligence is streamlined and efficient, designed to facilitate quick action when needed while minimizing the amount of information that any one captured agent or leak could reveal. High-level operatives are referred to exclusively by generic designations derived from their function in the organisation. All operatives are directly supervised by senior personnel deep within the organisation's headquarters on Dromund Kaas, the Sith capital.

 

...

 

Training programs within Imperial Intelligence are highly modular, a practical approach given the many specialised operatives employed by the organisation. Field operatives, by necessity, are trained in the widest variety of topics, from weapon use and close combat skills, to technical courses for data retrieval and manipulation, to the language and social training needed to fit into any situation. Other operatives are more specific in their training, but go much deeper: for example, the average Fixer knows far more about the workings of chemically targeted neurotoxins than the agents who employ them.

 

Because science, technology and security measures are constantly changing, new training programs are created and old ones supplemented on a regular basis. Intelligence operatives are regularly shuffled back from the field service upon completion of their assignments. They then undergo new or additional training modules to ensure maximum effectiveness in whatever task they take on next.

 

--Taken from the SWTOR Encyclopedia

Feel free to use this info Aurbere, I think the focus on aggressive as opposed to "passive" tactics is obvious, but this is an asset, I really doubt that SE will try and infiltrate through enemy through deception, there are too many risks involved, more likely they'll mount an all out operation on Jabba's Palace, Cipher agents and all.

 

However bear in mind that any control over the droids will not last, without the presence of a central droid computer communications can easily be cut off and rerouted, and downloading large amounts of data is not an option. However it could prove a potent distraction, and combined with several other strategies lead to an assassination.

 

Seeing as we are on the topic of espionage, I might suggest a focus on that.

[Selenial]

Sel, its canon. Unless you have proof otherwise. And Sith Intelligence has nothing to do with its credibility.

 

No I really don't, I really can't fathom on what grounds you are trying to dispute a source that has been documented in Wookieepedia as canon and on what grounds you can compare a SWG product to one of your fan fictions.

 

And infinitely better is a very bold claim, that I don't buy for a second. For that you'd not only need strong evidence of Sith Intelligence's superiority, but evidence of Imperial Intelligence's incompetency as well. We need to slow down, lets try and makes comparisons fairly and impartially without the hyperbole before things get out of hand.

 

I don't understand, Nemro the Hutt did not have information networks surpassing that of Imperial Intelligence, you would think that if Black Sun has that kind of power, they will know where people are in the underworld, what they look like etc.

 

For example, in that case Black Sun could probably have pulled up a dossier on the Red Blade and compared likeness, or maybe a source would tip them off informing that the Red Blade was in fact elsewhere. Lets say however that Imperial Intelligence killed the Red Blade, well the ripples created would no doubt be picked up by Black Sun.

 

They capitalized on ignorance, as if often if not always done when deceiving, that is not possible here, because the opponent is not ignorant. Going into details is pointless and they are circumstantial, but this remains always true.

 

P.S. I don't recall saying that, the rules don't even allow it.

 

It's a trading card game that was never confirmed or denied as Canon, anywhere, and most of the time I consider tradng card games non canon, as I currently have a card in front of me from the old Miniatures series that says that the "Home One" was a ship that could compete with the executor.

 

And no, we don't need to find evidence of the GE I.I's incompetency to say that the Sith Intelligence agency was superior, because your quote doesn't say anything about the Intelligence Agency's skills, all it says is that the Black Sun had a superior information network. So, they had better sources and contacts. That's not surprising, there were corrupt officials everywhere.

 

What you need to focus on for this Kaggath isn't entirely irrelevant quotes or misguided senses of superiority, just the fact that the Imperial Intelligence of the Galactic Empire era was feared, considered pathetic by it's higher-ups and almost blind to the workings of the Alliance. You also need to look at the fact that Imperial Intelligence of the Sith empire Era didn't bribe officials or torture them, like the Black sun and GE respectively, they were the officials. They were the senators, admirals, Jedi that leaked information, because Imperial Intelligence were simply too large for anyone in the galaxy to handle.

 

I also find it cute that you think the Republic and the Strategic Information Service, whilst in the midst of peace time and only working to look for spies or corrupt officials were just too ignorant to look for IA's. But that the Black sun supposed intelligence service (lawlz) in the middle of a war, whilst tracking troop movements, signals and other things, could somehow notice that one of the pirates that they'd been hiring out of thousands weren't actually them, despite looking and acting exactly the same.

 

Let's also not forget that this works both ways, no one in the black sun is intensely loyal and would lay down their lives to protect Xizor, if they get offered a way out or wealth beyond their wildest dreams they sure as hell will take it.

[tausra]

Why couldn't they pull a RotJ? They have pirates who attempted to board their boats, why not steal some clothes and replace some of them?

[Selenial]

to one of your fan fictions.

 

Please tell me you didn't think I was serious.

 

That sounds like something Karpyshyn would write.

[Beniboybling]

It's a trading card game that was never confirmed or denied as Canon, anywhere, and most of the time I consider tradng card games non canon, as I currently have a card in front of me from the old Miniatures series that says that the "Home One" was a ship that could compete with the executor.

 

And no, we don't need to find evidence of the GE I.I's incompetency to say that the Sith Intelligence agency was superior, because your quote doesn't say anything about the Intelligence Agency's skills, all it says is that the Black Sun had a superior information network. So, they had better sources and contacts. That's not surprising, there were corrupt officials everywhere.

 

What you need to focus on for this Kaggath isn't entirely irrelevant quotes or misguided senses of superiority, just the fact that the Imperial Intelligence of the Galactic Empire era was feared, considered pathetic by it's higher-ups and almost blind to the workings of the Alliance. You also need to look at the fact that Imperial Intelligence of the Sith empire Era didn't bribe officials or torture them, like the Black sun and GE respectively, they were the officials. They were the senators, admirals, Jedi that leaked information, because Imperial Intelligence were simply too large for anyone in the galaxy to handle.

 

I also find it cute that you think the Republic and the Strategic Information Service, whilst in the midst of peace time and only working to look for spies or corrupt officials were just too ignorant to look for IA's. But that the Black sun supposed intelligence service (lawlz) in the middle of a war, whilst tracking troop movements, signals and other things, could somehow notice that one of the pirates that they'd been hiring out of thousands weren't actually them, despite looking and acting exactly the same.

 

Let's also not forget that this works both ways, no one in the black sun is intensely loyal and would lay down their lives to protect Xizor, if they get offered a way out or wealth beyond their wildest dreams they sure as hell will take it.

C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more.

 

--Wookieepedia

 

It was released under the name of Star Wars, and is therefore canon unless otherwise stated. Again we require proof. We can't dismiss it because it does not align with your opinions, and for no other reason. I mean come on.

 

I don't understand, this quote has nothing to do with that particular argument, considering what you just said. All I'm asking here is for you to back up your claim, again lets calm it down, remember what I said before. It would be useful if you could expand on their shortcomings, because I really don't get you, how can Imperial Intelligence have been blind to the Alliance's doings when they orchestrated their creation in the first place? Potently aware of their existence?

 

How can they be blind to their doings when the Galactic Empire predicted their every move? That if I recall, the many Bothans who died to bring the Alliance that information in fact had it leaked to them by the Empire?

 

However I currently don't really understand what your saying, my apologies. Considering the Galactic Empire controlled the entire galaxy, it goes without saying that they "were the officials" as well as that regardless of what levels of galactic infiltration Sith Intelligence achieved, it cannot compare with controlling the galaxy completely.

 

The topic of size is also surely a no brainer.

 

I assuming I am missing something important here.

 

And finally, what would the SIS have to do with any of this? Again I'm confused. And what thousands? The rules don't allow as I said for the Black Sun to field in large numbers, only small units of pirates, who they will no doubt choose carefully. And sure, but again Black Sun would no doubt find out about their betrayal if they were anybody important.

 

EDIT: I'd also assume that considering they would have to remove this person from Jabba's Palace, they would opt for a new face offering to join the Confederacy would would again no doubt be researched into, and watched.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Beniboybling]

Please tell me you didn't think I was serious.

 

That sounds like something Karpyshyn would write.

Its the sentiment that matters, a sentiment that continues to baffle me.

[Selenial]

How can they be blind to their doings when the Galactic Empire predicted their every move? That if I recall, the many Bothans who died to bring the Alliance that information in fact had it leaked to them by the Empire?

 

However I currently don't really understand what your saying, my apologies. Considering the Galactic Empire controlled the entire galaxy, it goes without saying that they "were the officials" as well as that regardless of what levels of galactic infiltration Sith Intelligence achieved, it cannot compare with controlling the galaxy completely.

 

And finally, what would the SIS have to do with any of this? Again I'm confused. And what thousands? The rules don't allow as I said for the Black Sun to field in large numbers, only small units of pirates, who they will no doubt choose carefully. And sure, but again Black Sun would no doubt find out about their betrayal if they were anybody important.[/color]

 

The Bothan spynet managed to keep information out of the Galactic Empires hands time and time again. Information like their troop bases on Yavin and Hoth (Noting that Vader found those, not I.I) And again, seeing as we're only talking about Information gathering, that's all that matters. The Imperial Intelligence were feared throughout the galaxy, they didnt have as many contacts because they tended to torture information out of people and then cast them aside.

 

And no, they weren't "the officials" because we're talking about the fact that the Sith Empire had intelligence operatives that were Republic Senators, Jedi Masters etc. Unless you mean to tell me that Wedge Antilles was secretly Imperial Intelligence?

 

The SIS have to do with this because they were constantly working as a counter intelligence source, they would stop at nothing to make sure troop movements, fleet schematics and other vital information was kept from the SE, all in vain.

[Beniboybling]

The Bothan spynet managed to keep information out of the Galactic Empires hands time and time again. Information like their troop bases on Yavin and Hoth (Noting that Vader found those, not I.I) And again, seeing as we're only talking about Information gathering, that's all that matters. The Imperial Intelligence were feared throughout the galaxy, they didnt have as many contacts because they tended to torture information out of people and then cast them aside.

 

And no, they weren't "the officials" because we're talking about the fact that the Sith Empire had intelligence operatives that were Republic Senators, Jedi Masters etc. Unless you mean to tell me that Wedge Antilles was secretly Imperial Intelligence?

 

The SIS have to do with this because they were constantly working as a counter intelligence source, they would stop at nothing to make sure troop movements, fleet schematics and other vital information was kept from the SE, all in vain.

The Bothan Spynet possessed the most advanced and expansive information works in the galaxy, perhaps the most advanced and expansive the galaxy had ever seen. Of course they surpass the I.I. when it comes to intel.

 

Indeed I am not arguing Imperial Intelligence is omnipotent, far from it. However the fact that they were not able to discover the Alliance hidden bases on Hoth and Yavin is surely made up by the sheer number of strings they were pulling within the organisation, far more strings that Sith Intelligence ever pulled within the Galactic Republic.

 

And for the record, they did possess various spies posing as high ranking Alliance members.

 

But moving on, I feel you are not understanding my point here. Allow me to explain differently. At the height of their influence the Empire which SI served controlled roughly 50% of the galaxy, that is 50% of space where information is free flowing, govts don't need to be infiltrated, because the government is already under your thumb 100% of the time, which in terms makes infiltration in general much easier when on a planet within Imperial territory, barriers are broken down.

 

In terms of the remaining 50% infiltration is much harder, because it is Republic territory. As well as having to contend with the SIS, the govt is not under one's thumb 100% of the time and in most cases Imps aren't even allowed on world.

 

Now onto Imperial Intelligence, the Empire they serve controls what, 90% of the galaxy? That is 40% more space (of the same galaxy mind, making it directly comparable) were information flows freely. Where the governement is under your thumb, were one's weight can be thrown around and were agents are allowed on planet with no restrictions.

 

Barriers are broken down, and the simple fact it when pursuing information Imperial Intelligence has far less barriers to go through than Sith Intelligence, meaning they can acquire information easier and therefore possess more intelligence.

 

Who gives a damn about the Alliance? They control what, 5% of the galaxy, if that? 5% of the galaxy were information is not free flowing, hardly a hindrance to the expansiveness of their intelligence network. And only relevant if Alliance assets are in play, which they are not. Heck, lets not forget we are dealing with Black Sun here, who possess superior intelligence networks. Likely thanks to underworld influence, and of course its a totally separate argument to say that Black Sun are also restricted in their actions in Alliance space, which is very unlikely.

 

To explain this in an example, operating on Coruscant is infinitely more difficult for a Sith operative than an Imperial operative, the latter of which it is a walk in the park. Coruscant being the figurative center of the galaxy and all.

 

P.S. But what has that got to do with Nemro? He had nothing to do with the Republic and never did. Regardless, we have little proof that the SIS were so incompetent in the face of Sith Intelligence, in fact SWTORE suggestes otherwise:

 

The Republic's Strategic Information Service (SIS) has naturally become one of the primary targets of Imperial Intelligence. Each organisation has attempted to infiltrate each other with only minimal success, forcing both groups to study their opponents by indirect means.

 

And the SWTORE further refers to the SIS's many successes against the Empire at Sith Intelligence. Yet I have seen no proof from you that suggests that Sith Intelligence were running rings around them as you claim.

[Selenial]

To explain this in an example, operating on Coruscant is infinitely more difficult for a Sith operative than an Imperial operative, the latter of which it is a walk in the park. Coruscant being the figurative center of the galaxy and all.

 

P.S. But what has that got to do with Nemro? He had nothing to do with the Republic and never did. Regardless, we have little proof that the SIS were so incompetent in the face of Sith Intelligence, in fact SWTORE suggestes otherwise:

 

The Republic's Strategic Information Service (SIS) has naturally become one of the primary targets of Imperial Intelligence. Each organisation has attempted to infiltrate each other with only minimal success, forcing both groups to study their opponents by indirect means.

 

And the SWTORE further refers to the SIS's many successes against the Empire at Sith Intelligence. Yet I have seen no proof from you that suggests that Sith Intelligence were running rings around them as you claim.

 

*facepalm*

 

The truth is the complete opposite of what you just said. The entire point of an information network is to get intel on people who oppose you, what you just basically said was that the Galactic Empires efforts were focused into 5-10% of the Galaxy that was in open rebellion. You don't need contacts, sources or operatives in worlds that are loyal to you, now do you?

 

Again, all your quote says is about Information networks, for example, would the Imperials need safe houses and contacts in the senate tower? No. Do they need them in the Rebellion's high command? Yes.

 

It has to do with Nemro because the republic were trying everything they could to make sure the Hutts didnt side with the Imperials...

 

Also note that the quotes in the SWTOR:E describe the republic as of the first war, not the second. Imperial intelligence came into their own when they sent their best operatives into the SIS's heart, the SIS as of this time basically had one operation that the Imperial Intelligence service couldnt keep up with, so you know what they did? Planted a spy, who brought the entire service down to it's knees.

 

They toyed with the SIS on Dromund Kaas, doing entirely random things with new citizens to throw the SIS off anything important going on, they toyed with them constantly.

[Aurbere]

Wouldn't having to infiltrate a powerful government be a better sign of skill than infiltrating territory you already own, Beni?

[Beniboybling]

The truth is the complete opposite of what you just said. The entire point of an information network is to get intel on people who oppose you, what you just basically said was that the Galactic Empires efforts were focused into 5-10% of the Galaxy that was in open rebellion. You don't need contacts, sources or operatives in worlds that are loyal to you, now do you?

 

Again, all your quote says is about Information networks, for example, would the Imperials need safe houses and contacts in the senate tower? No. Do they need them in the Rebellion's high command? Yes.

 

It has to do with Nemro because the republic were trying everything they could to make sure the Hutts didnt side with the Imperials...

 

Also note that the quotes in the SWTOR:E describe the republic as of the first war, not the second. Imperial intelligence came into their own when they sent their best operatives into the SIS's heart, the SIS as of this time basically had one operation that the Imperial Intelligence service couldnt keep up with, so you know what they did? Planted a spy, who brought the entire service down to it's knees.

 

They toyed with the SIS on Dromund Kaas, doing entirely random things with new citizens to throw the SIS off anything important going on, they toyed with them constantly.

I would disagree, the Bothan Spynet for example didn't have any major enemies and yet they built an entire society around espionage and observation, they infiltrated everyone just for the sake of gather information. But that information wasn't useless, because when enemies did appear chances are they'd already know everything about them and in general information is always a valuable resource. I highly doubt Imp Intel operated any differently, or the Black Sun.

 

Or Sith Intelligence for that matter, I expect they had a slew of informants across their territories, especially captured territories so that if threats every did arise they'd already have the information at hand. Its called being prepared.

 

Black Sun for example no doubt constantly monitored all and every important event and person in the underworld and beyond, which, bringing it back to the Kaggath, would give them comprehensive knowledge of all their assets.

 

But the fact is, all that intel, where preemptive or not, can only be easily garnered in 50% of the galaxy.

 

The SWTORE focuses mainly on the Cold War, but covers the entire period, including the Second GGW, but a fair point, however I fail to see how this proves Sith Intelligence were running rings around them throughout the era. Though this isn't really relevant to the Kaggath, if you continue to pursue this point I'd like to see some evidence.

 

I don't remember anything of note on Kaas, if you are referring to that run around quest well, that's hardly toying. That's just a bit of standard counter intelligence on a rather minor scale, which probably has mirror quests on the Pub side.

 

I mean is that supposed to be impressive, is that the extent of their great subterfuge?

 

P.S. But the SIS lack as much access to Nemro's Empire as the Black Sun does to the Confederacy, and most importantly I highly doubt their info networks, especially on the underworld, come close to the Black Sun's.

[Aurbere]

This has been said repeatedly, but 'Sith Intelligence' means the SE's II, it's just a confusing manner chosen to differentiate between the two.

 

I guess we could label it Imperial Intelligence[sith Empire]. If that will clear up any confusion.

[Beniboybling]

Wouldn't having to infiltrate a powerful government be a better sign of skill than infiltrating territory you already own, Beni?

As I said SI clearly has experience on their side, and superior skill in infiltration. But purely in terms of the information they possess, raw data, whatever you want to call it, the Galactic Empire is superior. Because if there are more barriers that need to be overcome to acquire info, its going to be harder to get it, and their will be less of it.

 

But I totally agree that Sith Intelligence has superior agents and infiltration capabilities, but I feel Imperial Intelligence has superior resources, because of the sheer scope of the Galactic Empire they have as their backers.

 

Which is why I argued that straight up aggressive infiltration is a much better tactic to employ than trying to deceive an opponent who possesses more information than you do, indeed this all started with me pointing out deception is not a viable tactic, but I never said there are no other options, in fact there are a ton of better options than posing as Pirate 27.

[Beniboybling]

I guess we could label it Imperial Intelligence[sith Empire]. If that will clear up any confusion.

I couldn't think of any other means that is not overly verbose.

 

Such as that. I ain't typing that out.

 

We could use SE Intelligence I suppose?

Edited September 3, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Wolfninjajedi]

As I said SI clearly has experience on their side, and superior skill in infiltration. But purely in terms of the information they possess, raw data, whatever you want to call it, the Galactic Empire is superior. Because if there are more barriers that need to be overcome to acquire info, its going to be harder to get it, and their will be less of it.

 

But I totally agree that Sith Intelligence has superior agents and infiltration capabilities, but I feel Imperial Intelligence has superior resources, because of the sheer scope of the Galactic Empire they have as their backers.

 

Which is why I argued that straight up aggressive infiltration is a much better tactic to employ than trying to deceive an opponent who possesses more information than you do, indeed this all started with me pointing out deception is not a viable tactic, but I never said there are no other options, in fact there are a ton of better options than posing as Pirate 27.

 

I wouldn't say the SI has superior agents, the GE II does have notable agents of their own.

[Selenial]

I would disagree, the Bothan Spynet for example didn't have any major enemies and yet they built an entire society around espionage and observation, they infiltrated everyone just for the sake of gather information. But that information wasn't useless, because when enemies did appear chances are they'd already know everything about them and in general information is always a valuable resource. I highly doubt Imp Intel operated any differently, or the Black Sun.

 

Or Sith Intelligence for that matter, I expect they had a slew of informants across their territories, especially captured territories so that if threats every did arise they'd already have the information at hand. Its called being prepared.

 

Black Sun for example no doubt constantly monitored all and every important event and person in the underworld and beyond, which, bringing it back to the Kaggath, would give them comprehensive knowledge of all their assets.

 

But the fact is, all that intel, where preemptive or not, can only be easily garnered in 50% of the galaxy.

 

The SWTORE focuses mainly on the Cold War, but covers the entire period, including the Second GGW, but a fair point, however I fail to see how this proves Sith Intelligence were running rings around them throughout the era. Though this isn't really relevant to the Kaggath, if you continue to pursue this point I'd like to see some evidence.

 

I don't remember anything of note on Kaas, if you are referring to that run around quest well, that's hardly toying. That's just a bit of standard counter intelligence on a rather minor scale, which probably has mirror quests on the Pub side.

 

I mean is that supposed to be impressive, is that the extent of their great subterfuge?

 

P.S. But the SIS lack as much access to Nemro's Empire as the Black Sun does to the Confederacy, and most importantly I highly doubt their info networks, especially on the underworld, come close to the Black Sun's.

The Bothan Spynet had many enemies, hundreds of them. The Spynet existed as a means of Blackmail basically, it kept information on every system in the universe, because knowledge is power.

 

However if you have any proof of Black Sun keeping constant eye on people without them knowing, without them using counter intelligence then I might consider your argument as holding more weight. As of right now your entire base is backed off a single quote, that currently can barely even be measured, we have seen nothing else noteworthy from Black Sun other than this one hyperbolic statement, in fact, we've seen the GE Intelligence agency outwitt Black Sun in the past, especially when they gathered information that lead to Xizor's death.

[Selenial]

As I said SI clearly has experience on their side, and superior skill in infiltration. But purely in terms of the information they possess, raw data, whatever you want to call it, the Galactic Empire is superior. Because if there are more barriers that need to be overcome to acquire info, its going to be harder to get it, and their will be less of it.

 

But I totally agree that Sith Intelligence has superior agents and infiltration capabilities, but I feel Imperial Intelligence has superior resources, because of the sheer scope of the Galactic Empire they have as their backers.

 

Which is why I argued that straight up aggressive infiltration is a much better tactic to employ than trying to deceive an opponent who possesses more information than you do, indeed this all started with me pointing out deception is not a viable tactic, but I never said there are no other options, in fact there are a ton of better options than posing as Pirate 27.

 

I'm not sure you know what Infiltration means...

 

Posing as a criminal to sneak through the outer defenses of a castle, only to sneak to a transceiver, subtly kill the guards and upload a signal.... is the very definition of the words Aggressive Infiltration.

[Beniboybling]

The Bothan Spynet had many enemies, hundreds of them. The Spynet existed as a means of Blackmail basically, it kept information on every system in the universe, because knowledge is power.

 

However if you have any proof of Black Sun keeping constant eye on people without them knowing, without them using counter intelligence then I might consider your argument as holding more weight. As of right now your entire base is backed off a single quote, that currently can barely even be measured, we have seen nothing else noteworthy from Black Sun other than this one hyperbolic statement, in fact, we've seen the GE Intelligence agency outwitt Black Sun in the past, especially when they gathered information that lead to Xizor's death.

I see little reason to believe Imperial Intelligence, or especially the Black Sun would operate differently. Certainly for the Black Sun who seem to only have an information arm, knowledge would have been power.

 

It is your belief that the statement is hyperbolic, on no basis. But the fact of the matter is it is from an objective source, the statement itself is definitive, and as far as we are aware canon. It is what is is accept it or move on, but it would be unfair to Canino and in genuine of me to simply ignore it. Its certainly seems reasonable they'd have such power.

 

No statements have been made regarding counter intelligence, so I fail to see the point there.

[Aurbere]

As I said SI clearly has experience on their side, and superior skill in infiltration. But purely in terms of the information they possess, raw data, whatever you want to call it, the Galactic Empire is superior. Because if there are more barriers that need to be overcome to acquire info, its going to be harder to get it, and their will be less of it.

 

But I totally agree that Sith Intelligence has superior agents and infiltration capabilities, but I feel Imperial Intelligence has superior resources, because of the sheer scope of the Galactic Empire they have as their backers.

 

Which is why I argued that straight up aggressive infiltration is a much better tactic to employ than trying to deceive an opponent who possesses more information than you do, indeed this all started with me pointing out deception is not a viable tactic, but I never said there are no other options, in fact there are a ton of better options than posing as Pirate 27.

 

OK, I misunderstood your argument.

[Aurbere]

I couldn't think of any other means that is not overly verbose.

 

Such as that. I ain't typing that out.

 

We could use SE Intelligence I suppose?

 

I suppose we could use that. If it will prevent future confusion, then that's alright with me.

[Beniboybling]

OK, I misunderstood your argument.

No worries, I'm used to it.